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April 23, 2009


Charlie (Colorado)

At this point I don't think any of these "I knew about it and I was against it" stories can be trusted.


We need to develop an enhanced interrogation method that is much more effective than waterboarding. If KSM really met with water 138 times (which I don't believe), then it clearly was not severe enough.


Per Andrew Sullivan: "Maguire isn't a smart and brilliant legal mind like my ex, Glen Greenwald, and doesn't kmnow what he's writing about on this subject."

There....take that Mr. Maguire.

Rick Ballard

"There....take that Mr. Maguire."


Let us know if being struck with a limp noodle constitutes torture - IYO.



That's the thanks you get for giving so much attention to Sullivan.


Let's leave his noodle out of this!


One question. Which Soros financed think tank is Ali Soufan working for?

As for Greenwald, I though he only dated Brazilian Cabana boys.

Just caught the clip of Pelosi's big lie on FOX. hahaha



per page 111, "Gibson", (probably Mr. Soufan), told the CIA upon their arrival that Zubaydah was only providing "throwaway" information and that they "needed to diminish his capacity to resist".

Tom, you're blatantly misrepresenting what the OIG report said. Here's the text from the report:

Within a few days, CIA personnel assumed control over the interviews, although they asked Gibson and Thomas to observe and resist. Gibson told the OIG that the CIA interrogators said Zubaydah was only providing "throw-away information" and that they needed to diminish his capacity to resist.

(Emphasis added.) Is the problem with your integrity, or with your reading comprehension?


sick puppy


This sounds like a cat fight between FBI and CIA.


Gosh, being rejected by Andrew, the Excitable One, in favor of one of his "exes," should really put TM in his place.

Mt. Olympus, compared to those two dudes guarding the River Styx.


Bali Bombing October 12, 2002.

Well, I bet those 400 people who died in Bali would say that whoever was questioning Abu Zubaydah, it was neither tough enough NOR fast enough.


It would be a really small noodle, wouldn't it?


JBG! Woohoo!

Rick Ballard

"Gibson told the OIG that the CIA interrogators said" that MaryJane told Susie that Billy liked Kelly more than Sammys said he did.


Are you the same jukeboxgrad who was dishonestly spreading the "Reagan started extraordinary rendition" propaganda over at VC?

Is the problem with your integrity, or with your reading comprehension?

My reading comprehension - yikes.

Fortunately, that has no impact on my main point, which is that despite the current claims of solidarity from Soufan, somebody wanted to up the pressure on this guy.


The more I see of the DHS, the FBI and the CIA, the more I respect the decision of Americans to stock up on guns and ammo. We are clearly on our own in this fight.

Rick Ballard


You be the judge.


"Gibson told the OIG that the CIA interrogators said"

Goodness, I hope that this wasn't brought to our attention by one of those folks who thought that CIA agents were holier that Jesus Mary and Joseph combined during "L'Affaire Plame"

I guess that the intended implication is that the CIA interrogators were LIARS.


But explain this. Why were only 3 of the A-Q terrorists subjected to WBding, and only a relatively small percentage subjected to any enhanced interrogation at all? If they were just routinely doing this to all of them, just to see what they would come up with, maybe "Gibson" would have a slightly more believable case.

But that's not what happened.

I would say, that all things considered, the CIA Interrogators were correct in their assumptions. Especially since KSM was not captured til March 1 2003.

And your attempt to tar TM with a cherry-picking charge is pretty lame.


I think that Jukeboxgrad is just a Glen Greenwald sock puppet.


The narrative that Soufan is trying to argue was that everything was fine till the CIA got involved, But I don't see that, Cloonan, in particular, holds out the exampe of Jamal Al Fadl, yet he wasn't a hardcore operative. The Justice Department
interviewed Ali Mohammed in 1993, this was
one of those Fitz specials, and they let him go, so he could scout out the Embassies
for the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. and when he was detained, he didn't give up the planning behind 9/11; some say the tips included in the December '98 and Aug. 01
PDBs were important, but one could equally
say they were off point, leaving out the direct use of planes as weapons, instead of the more innocuous trade for hostages. The one plot that was disrupted was that follow up plot against NY City, in '93, but that
didn't involve any new operatives. The August PDB has about the same validity of the DHS memo, which didn't name groups, persons, rank of memberships of said
veterans, but just ideological affiliations

On another front, it seems that the Valerie Plame affair has officially moved to fiction, unlike the unofficial story that we already knew was fiction. Whitley Strieber, crazy "Aliens are Coming" and one of the first progenitors of global warming
hysteria in "Nature Day" has a very harrowing take on Islamic nuclear terrorism,
"Critical Mass" that is ultimately flawed by confused plotting and ideological incoherence (I give it a thumbs up) but he harps on Brester Jennings, and the Plame affair, suggesting this vile crime, would lead to this disaster


Rick, that was so small I couldn't see it.


Speaking of interrogation, Jeff Stein adds some more details to his Jane Harman story, although it's mostly bureaucratic infighting type stuff: House Intelligence Chairman Orders Staff to Investigate Harman Wiretaps. And David Corn pounces on details of the Robert Siegel's competent Jane Harman NPR interview Is Jane Harman Telling the Truth? And Why It's Important To Know. As I suggested yesterday, Siegel may have caught Harman in mid-thought regarding several conversations, quite possibly with different interlocutors.


Can you see what a zoo Congressional hearings would be now? HEH--Why they'd even drive pics of Michelle tending garden and the pooch off the front pp as liars contradict eachother and half wit journos work hard at "making a difference."


Well, I am rather surprised, quite frankly. I can only assume someone is mightily P.O.ed at Harman about something. And I don't think it's a GOPer.


LOL...We are in http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/86184129/Getty-Images-News?axd=DetailPaging.Generic|1&axs=0|86184129%2c86184127%2c86184112%2c86184107%2c86184033%2c86184001%2c86183983%2c86183980%2c86183976%2c86183882%2c86183874%2c86183809%2c86183806%2c86183804%2c86183775%2c86183771%2c86183712|0 ">Good Hands Clarice.


Is anyone keeping track of the barometric pressure at JOM over time?

There are periods when a warm front must pass through because the hot air becomes oppressive.

I think that, over time, tracking would indicate how thick the Axelgrease is being spread and, accordingly, how painful O's migraine might be at the moment.

I think IP address maps would be interesting.


Heh. I know the feeling Larry. 'course, Larry can do that at the drop of a hat.

Anyway, I'm officially open to conspiracy theories at this point. And the prospect of internecine warfare among Dems definitely appeals to me.


"F.B.I. agents on the scene angrily protested the more aggressive approach, arguing that persuasion rather than coercion had succeeded."

Persuade them to do what exactly?

FBI to terrorist: "If you tell us the truth about the stage two plot, or any future plot germinating in that empty cavity between your eyes we promise you'll be treated just like a US citizen and not a scumbag murdering POS? Can we persuade you to tell all? What can we do to persuade you to tell us everything you know? If we don't waterboard you will you bend over for us? We can try and torture you but we'd rather persuade you to just tattle on your terrorist brothers?

That's going to produce better results than forcing them to suck down some water, albeit they end up liking it enough to tough it out 183 times?



based upon the pettiness of so many of the points made by some of the critics so far, I am deeply concerned that the clownocracy is going to try and usurp power based upon innuendo, half truths, and bogus statistics.

When a cross section of the intelligence community speaks out, the president had better listen. Otherwise, we will be seeing mass resignations in the intelligence community as under Carter.We have Leahy, Pelosi, Axelrod, Emmanuel et al positioning this as a criminal conspiracy when clearly it falls under policy differences. 3 subjects the extensive discussions and decision making process that went into their interrogations, does not a policy make. These were extraordinary decisions demanded by extraordinary events.


who signed off on the NSA wiretaps, why, and when? cui bono?


matt, that's not really the question. The overhears were already in place and Harman blundered into the middle of the investigation.


I am simply not going to interest myself in the sad plight of Jane Harman.

She was OK for a democrat I guess, but what did she expect from the party of snakes and vipers?

My only hope is that she will back atcha to Nancy, and tell the world what it already knows--Mme Botox is lying through her teeth over "water boarding."


Sounds good to me.


Seriously - we have wussy-ass weenies in the FBI wanting to soothe and wetnurse murdering scum, and persuade them to be ratfinks.

I'm ever so glad Bambi's new national security procedures are persuading more terrorists to be nice.


based upon the pettiness of so many of the points made by some of the critics so far, I am deeply concerned that the clownocracy is going to try and usurp power based upon innuendo, half truths, and bogus statistics.

It's just as plain as day. They know the evidence goes against them, so they are trying to distract with little insignificant sideline points.

And I still want to know who is currently employing Arab-American ex-FBI agent Ali Soufan.Very little on the net, which makes my spidy senses tingle. I'm not pointing fingers (yet) but there is a certain stench about all this.

We already have the absolute confirmation of Dennis Blair, Obama's NSA chief, remember.


Someone at the NAtion wrote a piece agreeing with my view--the story was being leaked by those who want to keep the AIPAC case going and wanted to find a way to pressure Holder into doing so. There must be come CIPer types still in the bowels. Just sayin..

Charlie (Colorado)

Okay, I don't have enough time to develop it into a full theory (writing for $$$ again) but here's the thought that has occurred to me: Harman is the one person on the intelligence Committee who is said to have actually objected to some of the surveillance and interrogation techniques in writing.

My theory is that this is pre-emptively trying to reduce her credibility before she tells the world that Pelosi, Hoyer, and (please God) Lehey knew and approved in 2002.

Charlie (Colorado)

am deeply concerned that the clownocracy is going to try and usurp power based upon innuendo, half truths, and bogus statistics.

Golly, that train done left the station.


I'm assuming that the Nation was applauding Clarice.


Brother. I think I'm at my limit on this subject. I'm just not enough of a civilized elite or deep thinker. For me it's just not an issue. Do whatever it takes to jack these guys up - regardless if it works. Otherwise be prepared for the consequences.

The CYA going on by both sides is depressing. I wanted to believe the people in those jobs would, at times, have to do the necessary to get the job done and protect us. Instead they are turning out to be a bunch of whiney crybabies. And the ones that got the job done, or even tried are being vilified by even bigger weenies such as Gleen and Sully. Sickening.


I like that theory, Chaco. But the story does go back a long way. Good Luck!!


If a reporter with real credentials should read this, and he/she is someone who is actually reporting and not just "making a difference'(running with Dem talking points),I suggest he contact these former agents to see what they say when asked if they weren't in fact the source of the Harman leaks:
Pat Lang (ex DIA); Scheuer (ex CIA and author of Anonymous),David Szady (ex FBI and now martial arts promoter).

Just saying.


Sure, verner..heh


WAW. Hmmmm.


Bill O'Reilly on Glen Beck says GE, parent company of NBC, the Obama network, has set up a division to profit from Cap-and-Trade.

How cozy is that?


the multinationals are just gaming the system as they always do, bad. Give them an opportunity, and some MBA will figure out how to bend the rules and make a profit, even if it means leaving someone else to hold the bag years later. I'm sure GE also made billions off the housing/mortgage crisis as well.


I can only assume someone is mightily P.O.ed at Harman about something. And I don't think it's a GOPer. That would be the fabulous Nancy P. of the double-digit IQ, who was Minority Ranking on the Intell Cte. that signed the 9/11 Comm. Report. She got Reyes, another dimwit like herself, as Cte. Chief after the Dems won in '06, though Harman had seniority & the brains to run it well.

Jane just went to the gala inauguration of a new Think Tank with Robert Kagan, the scourge of flakey libs, as the Senior Member. Maybe that helped stoke the nefarious plotting to "get" Jane once & for all. A Pelosi mole on the CQ? Could it be?


-- Bill O'Reilly on Glen Beck says GE, parent company of NBC, the Obama network, has set up a division to profit from Cap-and-Trade. --

All substantial corporations invest in influencing the government. If/when they get big enough (e.g., Federal Reserve), they effectively LEAD the government. And even if they think they're leading the government, but they aren't, they take stock of the political/war winds and position to profit from the unfolding of history.

What's sobering is to realize that patriotism is "for the little guy."


-- I think that Jukeboxgrad is just a Glen Greenwald sock puppet. --



Hi, cboldt.


Hai clarice!

I'm a chronic but occasional lurker here. Tom is a gifted observer and writer.


Nice ta see ya, cboldt.


That he is, cboldt, but we try not to let him know that.


GE's Immelt is a butt boy for Obama. He's hoping that some of the 2trillion dollars from the Obama budget will come to GE in the form of purchase orders for wind turbines.


In the meantime he's shilling for Obama at Notre Dame.



Immelt is on Obama's economic advisory board, isn't he?


Paul Volcker will serve as Chairman and Austan Goolsbee as Staff Director and Chief Economist.

Members of the Board include:

William H. Donaldson, Chairman, SEC (2003-2005)

Roger W. Ferguson, Jr., President & CEO, TIAA-CREF

Robert Wolf, Chairman & CEO, UBS Group Americas

David F. Swensen, CIO, Yale University

Mark T. Gallogly, Founder & Managing Partner, Centerbridge Partners L.P.

Penny Pritzker, Chairman & Founder, Pritzker Realty Group

Jeffrey R. Immelt, CEO, GE

John Doerr, Partner, Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers

Jim Owens, Chairman and CEO, Caterpillar Inc.

Monica C. Lozano, Publisher & Chief Executive Officer, La Opinion

Charles E. Phillips, Jr., President, Oracle Corporation

Anna Burger, Chair, Change to Win

Richard L. Trumka, Secretary-Treasurer, AFL-CIO

Laura D'Andrea Tyson, Dean, Haas School of Business at the University of California at Berkeley

Martin Feldstein, George F. Baker Professor of Economics, Harvard University
He is, Maybee


This is like 'opera buffe' the Washington post is hiring Ezra Klein, what Ted Rall wasn't available, he's free from the UP gig.

JM Hanes


I'm no Klein fan, but it could be worse. They could have signed up intellectual featherweight Matt Ygelsias.

JM Hanes


"Okay, I don't have enough time to develop it into a full theory (writing for $$$ again)....."

Maybe I can lend a hand, because I was thinking the same thing in the Harman thread here and in a second comment here.

Hi daveinboca! You don't need to bother with the links above, 'cause you heard it first over at Don Surber's place. :-)


Again, I invite your attention to the work of ex DIA official Pat Lang, anti-Semite and conspiracist extraordinaire who I think with Michael Scheuer and fruitcake deluxe ex FBI CI head David Szady are the three former o"intel officials" leaking this stuff to keep Holder from dumping the case.


It's the VIPs all over again--only the names have been changed..Same song..nutsy former intel guys making political trouble.


It's a tough call, specially having tried to have a civil argument with Yglesias, and ending up in the argument clinic. He's seriously entertained the idea, that WW 2 wasn't all that necessary. But Klein is so wrong on everything consistently, thanks to all the items TM reads so we don't have to; they're all journolisters and don't have an original thought in their body (Joe Klein, Noam Schreiber, Greg Sargent, et al)


Killer as usual Tom...

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