Releasing The Torture Memos - Be Careful What You Wish For, Mr. Cheney

Matt Apuzzo of the AP, who did a good job in covering the Plame case, tackles the question of whether the newly released OLC memos support the contention that the CIA enhanced interrogation program was effective.

Marc Thiessen, writing in the WaPo, provided extensive excerpts from the May 30 2005 OLC memo in support of that claim.

However, the May 30 memo also included this caveat:

Second, it is difficult to quantify with confidence and precision the effectiveness of the program.  As the [CIA Inspector General] report notes, it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations have provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks.  And because the CIA has used enhanced techniques sparingly "there is limited data on which to assess their individual effectiveness.

That caveat is set aside for the balance of the memo, which refers repeatedly to specific successes attributed to the enhanced interrogation program, including the prevention of a major attack on Los Angeles.  However, the IG report may be more ambiguous than the memo excerpts lead people to expect.

As a point of information, Khalid Sheik Mohammad was subjected to 183 dousings during his sessions on the waterboard.  Zubaydah was doused 83 times.  And the third subject of waterboarding?  His record was a bit less impressive:

Interrogators used enhanced techniques in the interrogation of al-Nashiri with notable results as early as the first day.  Twelve days into the interrogation, the CIA subjected al-Nashiri to one session of the waterboard during which water was applied two times.

Speaking on behalf of cheap suitcases everywhere I can only say that al-Nashiri sounds like my kind of guy.

APUZZO UPSIDE DOWN:  I think Mr. Apuzzo has this backwards:

Elsewhere in the Justice Department documents, there are suggestions that the toughest tactics weren't always the most successful. Of the 94 terrorist suspects in the CIA program, only 28 were subjected to "enhanced" methods, the documents said. That means two out of three detainees gave up valuable intelligence in simple interviews.

Well, yeah.  And as the memos explain, when the normal methods didn't work the interrogators sought approval to escalate to the enhanced techniques.  From the May 30 memo:

Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting "Soon, you will know".

SWEAR IN THE NEXT WITNESS:  The Times presents the genesis of the CIA enhanced interrogation program and presents the recollections of the Congressional overseers:

As was common with the most secret programs, the C.I.A. chose not to brief the entire committees about the interrogation methods but only the so-called Gang of Four — the top Republican and Democrat on the Senate and House committees. The rest of the committee members would be fully briefed only in 2006.

The 2002 Gang of Four briefings left a hodgepodge of contradictory recollections that, to some Congressional staff members, reveal a dysfunctional oversight system. Without full staff support, few lawmakers are equipped to make difficult legal and policy judgments about secret programs, critics say.

Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who in 2002 was the ranking Democrat on the House committee, has said in public statements that she recalls being briefed on the methods, including waterboarding. She insists, however, that the lawmakers were told only that the C.I.A. believed the methods were legal — not that they were going to be used.

By contrast, the ranking Republican on the House committee at the time, Porter J. Goss of Florida, who later served as C.I.A. director, recalls a clear message that the methods would be used.

“We were briefed, and we certainly understood what C.I.A. was doing,” Mr. Goss said in an interview. “Not only was there no objection, there was actually concern about whether the agency was doing enough.”

Senator Bob Graham, Democrat of Florida, who was committee chairman in 2002, said in an interview that he did not recall ever being briefed on the methods, though government officials with access to records say all four committee leaders received multiple briefings.

Senator Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, the senior Republican on the committee, declined to discuss the briefings.

I assume someone from the CIA side will have briefing notes that confirm that Pelosi and Graham are lying weasels.  Sorry, make that gutless lying weasels.  But they will be helpful witnesses for the defense, if we reach the point of having a torture trial.  I can hear Ms.Pelosi now - "Sure, the CIA called in the four senior oversight committee members to chat about things they thought were legal but had no intention of doing.  Then we reviewed each others NCAA picks and talked about the weather, since no one ever does anything about that, either.  I'm in Congress - all I do is talk".  Hmm, a jury might actually buy that.

Comments

[Charlie (Colorado)]

So apparently we've got Matt Apuzzo saying they weren't effective, and the DNI saying they were.

Hmmm. It's a puzzlement.

[PaulL]

Can't say that I follow your reasoning here, TM. Do you think Cheney is going to fret about some political spin?

[PaulL]

KSM says he was waterboarded 5 times. The report supposedly says 183 times.

I don't buy the explanation given so far that he was waterboarded 36 or 37 times per session, and that KSM only counted the session as a whole, and the CIA counted each time any water was introduced to his system.

[lurking]

I love it. It's OK to crash bullets through the brains of three men when one US citizen is in imminent danger, but not to waterboard one man when all the denizens of an LA highrise are in imminent danger.

Maybe we are going to get the national discussion we need about security. It's broached in interrogation techniques, in surveillance techniques, and in response to hostage situations. Maybe will get around to contemplating NoKo and Iranian nukes, and Russian troops massing in Georgia. Don't expect Obama to star in the debate.

[verner]

imminent appears to be the key word.

Now are we going to have to argue over how imminent the attack was suppose to be?!?

Two weeks? 24 hours?

How about we stop them the minute we find out about them. I like that.

The fact that the plots exist is imminent enough.

[verner]

And this sounds real imminent:

"Soon, you will know".

[verner]

"Sure, the CIA called in the four senior oversight committee members to chat about things they thought were legal but had no intention of doing.

Doesn't that sound like the "we voted for Bush to have the authority to attack Saddam, but we didn't think he'd actually do it" defense.

[verner]

"I don't buy the explanation given so far that he was waterboarded 36 or 37 times per session, and that KSM only counted the session as a whole, and the CIA counted each time any water was introduced to his system."

Do you think KSM is trying to make the CIA look good?

If you watch one of the numerous videos of various journos getting WBded, it makes sense. They start with a very short pour that only lasts a few seconds, quickly repeat it four or five times, and then stop.

He might have been WBded on five different days, with two "sessions" a day. With 18 pours a session, it works.

[Ann]

Tom, I like this title better:

Releasing The Torture Memos - Be Careful What You Step IN, President Obama

Shovel Ready

And just for a snort, according to the linked article Michelle Obama is quoted as saying:

"We have the biggest tree," :)

[verner]

Hey Link to Blair memo by Peter Baker NYT

Interesting...

LUN

[Daddy]

Well now that we know that Nancy (Alzheimer) Pelosi and the vacuous Bob Graham were at these "Interrogation Discussions" but can't remember anything, is that enough cover yet for the memory addled Richard Armitage to finally step forward and admit he too was at these meetings? Hard to say, but I think so.

With Pelosi and Graham having memory dumps, and with Armitage currently cruising on his "If I'd'a Known I'd'a resigned" bluster to Al Jazeera, now seems the perfect time for this State Department doorknob, who famously forgot during the Libby witchhunt that he was the guy who leaked to Woodward and Novak, to re-spring his Andrea Mitchell quality amnesia upon a gullible public and Media.

By buttressing Pelosi and Graham's cock and bull amnesia story with his own formidable ignorance, he'd be able to stick another knife in the back of Cheney and the Bush Administration 1 more time, plus get invited on Andrea Mitchell's show to chit-chat about the faulty memory's of Conservatives. What's not to like?

That's why I think some reporter somewhere in America, will finally find the motivation today to get off his duff, dial up the former Deputy Secretary of State, and ask the all important question of Richard Armitage: "What did you not know, and when did you not know it?"

[kate]

I'd like to make a modest request. Can we stop calling them the "torture" memos. Must we let the left win the framing argument everytime.

How about the "Keep American Safe" Memos, or perhaps the more neutral "Enhanced Interogation Memos".

[PeterUK]

Just give them a choice,"Waterboarding or the Botox and the face lift,we'll send you back looking Nancy with the staring eyes".

[PeterUK]

"How about the "Keep American Safe" Memos, or perhaps the more neutral "Enhanced Interogation Memos".

Perhaps "Earnest Inquiry" would be better.

[PMII]

I thought this interesting Bybee vs. Gorlick
- not being a lawyer, are any of you worried?

[PMII]

Corrected link

Bybee vs. Gorelick

[Jane]

I love it. It's OK to crash bullets through the brains of three men when one US citizen is in imminent danger, but not to waterboard one man when all the denizens of an LA highrise are in imminent danger.

I for one am already gearing up for the post presidency trial of The Won based on this incident alone.

Of course that assumes there will be a post-presidency. It seems to me we are headed in a different direction.

[Jane]

OT: They just found a senior Freddie Mac guy dead.

[Jane]

David Kellerman, 41, CFO - responsible for all aspects of mortgage portfolio activity.

[clarice]

Suicide?

[Captain Hate]

Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who in 2002 was the ranking Democrat on the House committee, has said in public statements that she recalls being briefed on the methods, including waterboarding. She insists, however, that the lawmakers were told only that the C.I.A. believed the methods were legal — not that they were going to be used.

How can any of this witless whore's constituents justify voting for such an obvious dumbbell? The CIA was just randomly brainstorming in front of these clowns, tossing out things like "have them play really really hard sudoku puzzles" just to see if a certain Baltimore mafia princess was paying attention or contemplating her next cosmetic surgery.

[Pofarmer]

Of course that assumes there will be a post-presidency. It seems to me we are headed in a different direction.

I've been thinking that too, but then I start worrying that I have ODS. The next step will be the bankruptcy of the energy industry. He needs more crisis.

[sbw]

Waterboarding or Barney Frank?
Waterboarding or Barney Frank?

Torture is relative.

[PMII]

We are starting to sound like a third world country.....

[Jane]

I think The WOn has turned us into Latin AMerica in less than 100 days.

Pretty big accomplishment when you think about it.

[Bill in AZ]

Suicide?
Obamicide - a lot of that going around. But every socialist/fascist racks up a few million of those.

[bad]

Clarice, it was suicide.

[Bruce]

suicide?

Could be. Anyone know where Hillary Clinton was at the time?

"Paging Vince Foster! Paging Mr. Foster!"

[PeterUK]

An open vein in a hot bath?

[Extraneus]

The Rasmussen presidential approval index is about to go negative. The 2010 elections are only 18 months away, after which the Dems will probably be taken down quite a few pegs unless they start tacking back very soon. Instead, they're over-reaching, probably afraid that they'll never be given this much power again.

Interestingly, the Rasmussen strongly-disapprove number seems to have leveled out. It's the strongly-approve number that hasn't. This implies that he's losing independents continually. A lot of people voted for something besides this.

[PeterUK]

" A lot of people voted for something besides this."

They didn't vote for "Change you can never get rid of".

[George Ditter]

Sounds like in the future any briefing for the benefit of a Democratic Congressional member should bypass the actual elected Democrats and just involve their staffer and should be secretly videoed for furture reference.

[Fresh Air]

The entire Mediacrat delegation is a troupe of goddamn cowards. They make me sick to my stomach. Evidently, national security was only a political ploy for them. They were never serious about it, as they certainly aren't serious now and it's not possible to shift your opinion on something so important; you either believe in protecting the people of the country to your utmost or you don't.

The only question I have about KSM is why, after we got the information he had to give, we didn't put a large caliber bullet through this skull.

[bad]

Fresh Air, I agree. Let's treat alleged terrorists the way the president treats alleged pirates... bullets through the brain, 75% of the time.

[bad]

Before you scoff, think about it. Gitmo and Bagram and renditions would be greatly reduced.

It's a win/win....

[Old Lurker]

Wonder how Grassley feels about the Freddie Mac guy's suicide.

Now the President is going to criminalize the policy differences of previous administrations.

This is an ugly road we are traveling, folks.

[bad]

Old Lurker, I'm just paranoid enough to wonder what the Freddie Mac guy knows that we don't know.

I wonder about Grassley as well.

[bad]

Make that "knew".....

Prayers for his family, he was only 41.

[Rick Ballard]

"Can we stop calling them the "torture" memos. Must we let the left win the framing argument every time."

Hear. Hear.

Ceding the language on interrogation works to the same end as describing the "consensus opinion" by stakeholders in climate fraud as "science". The interrogation techniques are to torture as climate crapscience is to science or "journalism" is to honest reporting. Slop begets slop.

[Danube of Thought]

Dorothy Rabinowitz is once again a must-read. LUN

[bad]

from DoT's link:

Since that bridge too far to Europe, ordinary Americans, including some who voted for Mr. Obama, have shown evidence of a quiet but durable resentment over the list of grievances against the United States that the president brought to the world's attention while overseas. There are certain things that can't be taken back. There are images that are hard to forget. Anger of this kind has an enduring power that could, in the end, haunt this presidency.

I hope she is right.

Thanks for that link DoT.

The man is a fool and our president. God help us all.

[cathyf]

I don't buy the explanation given so far that he was waterboarded 36 or 37 times per session, and that KSM only counted the session as a whole, and the CIA counted each time any water was introduced to his system.

I have an alternative explanation that I posted on the other thread which also makes the numbers come out. The CIA waterboarded KSM twice the usual length of time. Didn't work. Then the waterboarded him the length of time which is whatever counts as "a long time" given our experience with SERE school. Didn't work. Then they waterboarded each other 100 times working out a protocol for a 2-minute waterboard session. Then the waterboarded KSM for two minutes, didn't work. So then they waterboarded each other another 78 times working out a 3-minute protocol. KSM broke after 2:40 in his fifth waterboard.

See, all the numbers add up. KSM was waterboarded 5 times just like he said, and the CIA "used the waterboard 185 times that month" just like the memos said. And the odd mixture of direct quotes and obfuscating paraphrases is the "journalist's" attempt to hide the fact that the CIA interrogators used "torture" on each other far more than on any detainee.

[bad]

O/T but Andy McCarthy has a good question:

Is DHS Secretary Napolitano Just an Ignoramus?

Apparently, she believes crossing the border illegally is NOT a crime.

LUN

[Danube of Thought]

He is, indeed, a fool, Bad. It's very troubling.

The most troubling attribute to me is his apparent belief that he is here to wash away our sins, and that we must somehow debase ourselves to achieve that lofty goal.

He clearly believes that American before Obama had very little to commend it.

[bad]

He clearly believes that American before Obama had very little to commend it.

His wife repeatedly and honestly pointed that out on the compaign trail before they finally muzzled her.

[clarice]

cathy, I caught that post yesterday and think it is entirely plausible.

DoT Rabinowitz is always good..I especially liked this:

"Turning aside the quest for answers to knotty questions -- including several on the point that most of what we now know about al Qaeda had been gleaned precisely from these enhanced interrogations -- Mr. Emanuel indicated that the Obama administration was guided by higher concerns. He proceeded patiently, to explain. By revealing the memos, with their detailed information on those interrogation techniques (now banned), we had elevated our moral status in the eyes of the world. More important, we had improved our standing in the eyes of potential terrorists. This would undermine al Qaeda, Mr. Emanuel explained, because those interrogations of ours helped to enlist terrorists to their cause. All of which was why the publication of the memos -- news of which would presumably touch the hearts of militants around the world -- would make America safer.

There is always danger in repeating propositions like this often, among them the likelihood that their irrationality will begin to make itself clear to anyone hearing it over time.

Any number of people listening to Mr. Emanuel -- those acquainted with terror's recent history, at any rate -- would have recalled, instantly, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the attack on the USS Cole, and the rest of the unending chain of terror assaults mounted against Americans long before anyone had ever heard of enhanced interrogation techniques."

[cathyf]

By revealing the memos, with their detailed information on those interrogation techniques (now banned), we had elevated our moral status in the eyes of the world.

I was disappointed that Rabinowitz didn't mock this notion. To anyone who is not a narcissist honestly convinced that the entire rest of the world is obsessed with his every little thought, feeling, and intestinal moment, the obvious effect of bringing up long-ago events that people might hate us for is to remind those people that they hate us and reinforce the hatred.

[MayBee]

Any number of people listening to Mr. Emanuel -- those acquainted with terror's recent history, at any rate -- would have recalled, instantly, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the attack on the USS Cole, and the rest of the unending chain of terror assaults mounted against Americans long before anyone had ever heard of enhanced interrogation techniques."

Precisely.

[clarice]

Which people was this to appeal to anyway?

The French whose detainees sit in secret prisons on their own soil and now and then are found dead in the Seine or having someone slipped the bonds and jumped from the third floors of police stations?

The Dutch and Belgians who regularly sit by as massacres take place before their impotent troops eyes on missions abroad?

The MiddleEast where beheadings of opponents are rather quotidian and simple thievery results in chopped off limbs?

The man is mad.

[clarice]

And Napolitano is another certifiable moron:

< a href=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090421/USA_Border_090421/20090421?hub=TopStories>Don't know much about history"

[clarice]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090421/USA_Border_090421/20090421?hub=TopStories>Don't know much about history

[bad]

What's with Napolitano? What was she smokin' when she did that interview....

[anduril]

clarice, I was wondering where a good thread would be for that very worthy story: The border for dummies: How did she get her job?

But a point of clarification: impotent eyes or impotent troops? Or both? :-)

[centralcal]

The Border For Dummies

Just to add to Clarice's link.

[bad]

Some official from Texas was on FOX much earlier today saying the border issues in Texas and Arizona were very different because Texas handled things much better.

Wonder how much Napolitano had to do with border procedures in Arizona?

[maryrose]

Napolitano is a moron, you've got that right clarice. After her shot at the veterans she obviously knows nothing about border control. I was especially amused by her question about what the National Guard would do if sent to the border. The incompetence in this administration is frightening!

[Bill in AZ]

She didn't need to do anything - they come in from Canada.

[MayBee]

Maryrose!!!!!!!!!!!

[bad]

San Francisco is unhappy about bio diesal made from animal parts in a plant there.