Scrap Cap And Trade, Go With Revenue Neutral Carbon Tax

Tom Friedman argues that cap and trade needs to go and favors a revenue neutral carbon tax instead.

One of the great virtues of cap and trade was that it was a tax in disguise, but Friedman argues that game is lost:

Advocates of cap-and-trade argue that it is preferable to a simple carbon tax because it fixes a national cap on carbon emissions and it “hides the ball” — it doesn’t use the word “tax” — even though it amounts to one. So it can get through Congress. That was true as long as no one thought cap-and-trade could ever pass, but now that it might under Mr. Obama, opponents are not playing hide the ball anymore.

In the past two weeks, you could hear a chorus of Republicans, coal-state Democrats, right-wing think tanks and enviro-skeptics all singing the same tune: “Cap-and-trade is a tax. Obama is going to raise your taxes and sacrifice U.S. jobs to combat this global-warming charade, which many scientists think is nonsense. Worse, cap-and-trade will be managed by Wall Street. If you liked credit-default swaps, you’re going to love carbon-offset swaps.”

Onetime supporter John McCain has taken to calling it "cap and tax".

The alternative:

Since the opponents of cap-and-trade are going to pillory it as a tax anyway, why not go for the real thing — a simple, transparent, economy-wide carbon tax?

Representative John B. Larson, chairman of the House Democratic Caucus, has circulated a draft bill that would impose “a per-unit tax on the carbon-dioxide content of fossil fuels, beginning at a rate of $15 per metric ton of CO2 and increasing by $10 each year.” The bill sets a goal, rather than a cap, on emissions at 80 percent below 2005 levels by 2050, and if the goal for the first five years is not met, the tax automatically increases by an additional $5 per metric ton. The bill implements a fee on carbon-intensive imports, as well, to press China to follow suit. Larson would use most of the income to reduce people’s payroll taxes: We tax your carbon sins and un-tax your payroll wins.

People get that — and simplicity matters. Americans will be willing to pay a tax for their children to be less threatened, breathe cleaner air and live in a more sustainable world with a stronger America. They are much less likely to support a firm in London trading offsets from an electric bill in Boston with a derivatives firm in New York in order to help fund an aluminum smelter in Beijing, which is what cap-and-trade is all about. People won’t support what they can’t explain.

Greg Mankiw is ready to rally support! Or was.

TANGENTIALLY RELATED:  In the course of combing Ye Olde Archives for the Mankiw thing this flip-flop by Krugman on Al Gore and the enviros embrace of market mechanisms such as taxes or cap and trade caught my eye.

[end of thread]

Comments

[MAS1916]

The resources wasted on figuring out Cap and Trade could be better utilized in developing new sources of energy.

Cap and Tax is a proper term. Voters won't stand for it with inflation and unemployment in double digits next year. Paying more to still be cold won't fly.

[narciso]

Tell me again, why want to make it more expensive to heat our homes, power our cars, buy our food, insulate our houses, everything that goes into building up our civilization, specially when China and India, won't go along with it. "Am I the only one not taking crazy pills"

[Jane]

Sorry to go OT so early in the thread but I just heard "the whitehouse" said the Somali pirates are our "top priority", and I'm trying to figure out if the President plans to take over the shipping industry, Somalia or both to solve this problem.

[Rick Ballard]

"a per-unit tax on the carbon-dioxide content of fossil fuels, beginning at a rate of $15 per metric ton of CO2 and increasing by $10 each year.”

Cool. A straight out air tax. I can't think of anything more regressive. A truly regressive tax based upon a successful propaganda scare campaign by dirty socialists to hobble the cleanest, most productive economy in the world in order to "level the playing field" a bit more so that the Chicoms not only enjoy the benefit of a mercantilist slave economy but can continue as the world's largest and worst polluter.

It's just perfect.

[Jack is Back!]

We are all carbon now!

As an educated engineer, I am appalled at the lack of any firm empirical evidence that C02 poses any threat to climate change ordinaire (climate is always changing). The models are structured and biased towards self-fulfilling prophecy and most of them are using spurious data. In fact, we should be producing all the C02 we can since it modifies weather and creates bountiful harvest.

[glasater]

Where IS Kim?

I'm getting concerned that she is locked out somehow.

Kim--purge your cookies--please!

[MayBee]

Why not just an across-the-board VAT? Why target carbon?

[matt]

OT, but I just saw that of the four Congressional Black Caucus members who visited Castro the visit included Barbara Lee, probably the most left member of Congress, and Bobby Rush, the ex Black panther. Funny about how the press didn't include that germane information.

[Fresh Air]

Climate "change" is not now and never will be a problem. Global warming, if it did occur, has now stopped. We are facing a solar minimum that could last from 10 to 100 years. The world will be colder in 50 years regardless of anything this administration or any other does. Furthermore, China and India have just this past year overtaken the U.S. and the world's largest emitters of C02. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since carbon dioxide, as Zero evidently is oblivious to, causes things to...grow.

God, there is unbelievable concentration of stupid in Washington.

[Danube of Thought]

"why not go for the real thing — a simple, transparent, economy-wide carbon tax?"

Well for one thing, there's the matter of that promise not to raise taxes--"any taxes"--on those making less than $250K per year.

[Paul Zrimsek]

Larson is doing a bit of ball-hiding as well. If you're going to keep upping the tax until the market lowers its carbon emissions to a level you've (somehow) chosen in advance, all you've got is cap-and-trade under another name.

[Jim Ryan]

Where IS Kim?

CUT TO SCENE: KIM, WIELDING AXE AND MACE, IS HANDLING ONSLAUGHT OF HALF A DOZEN TROLLS IN A CLIMATE SCIENCE WEBSITE....

[Whitehall]

I guess I'm supposed to rejoice.

I build nuclear power plants for a living. This new tax would just make my business grow and increase demand for my services.

I guess I'm supposed to say "Screw the country." But I can't. Climate change is the biggest hoax I've ever seen. Years and billions of dollars have been invested trying to get teh population to believe in this false crisis and the elites who are pushing this are getting so close to payback.

Time for some defenestration.

[Thomas Collins]

MayBee, if an across the board VAT passes, we will then have a comprehensive federal income tax, comprehensive payroll tax and comprehensive VAT. And we'd then probably get a comprehensive air tax anyway.

I'm usually not a big fan of pointing to songs as policy analysis sources. But "Taxman" by the Beatles concisely sums up the thinking of Eurocrats and today's US Democrat Party.

[Appalled]

Rick:

In your world, are there any clean socialists? Have the constabulary nationalized all the soap?

[RichatUF]

The US produces roughly 7 billion metric tons of CO2 annually. A $15 per metric ton tax is 105 billion annually with an esclator clause of $70 billion. At the end of this little project the CO2 tax would 385 billion annually to be "offset" by a "cut" in the payroll tax for those already receiving the EITC and the Obama tax rebate.

I'd call that about perfect-not only is the tax regressive, it'd be passed on (maybe-some utilities would be hard pressed to raise rates because they are regulated, maybe a replay of the Death Star strategy, except nationwide) to consumers through higher power and gas rates, more expensive food and goods on store shelves, and it would cock up social security and medicare receipts obligating the government to increase the FICA tax on those "more able to pay".

[Chris]

As long as it's for the children!

[Sue]

OT,

ABC News radio is reporting that the Americans aboard the pirated ship have taken back their ship! Pirates killed or in the water!

[Sue]

I have visions of Harrison Ford declaring "get off my ship" while booting them into the water.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

To build on Paul Z's point, how can this work?
If carbon use drops as precipitously as predicted where will tax revenues for SS and Mediscare come from?
If carbon is taxed to the point of making it uncompetitive with alternative energies they will be much more expensive than if they had competition from cheap fossil fuels so we'll all be paying much more for energy which means we won't have the dough for the massive taxes needed for baby boom retirees.
Brings visions of the perfect market interventionist solution;
the new Chevy 'Fred Flinstone' will be the transportation of choice and we'll be heating our homes with hamster wheels for our kids during the day and secretly mined peat from the local bog at night while geezers will be selling pencils in the street for their retirement.
But we'll have the moral high ground in a war against the chimera of CO2.

[Sue]

AP reporting 1 pirate in custody. For some reason this story is funny to me. I hope none of the crew members were harmed. If so, I'll feel terrible for laughing.

[sbw]

Lessee. Revenue neutral? If I understand this right, the government would tax me for using energy that releases CO2 and then pay me a credit to make it revenue neutral?

If it doesn't work that way, it's not revenue neutral. If it works that way, it doesn't work.

My right brain aches.

[hit and run]

Sue:
ABC News radio is reporting that the Americans aboard the pirated ship have taken back their ship! Pirates killed or in the water!

Obama thinks the Americans were arrogant, called for both sides to show restraint.

[Jane]

I'm sure he will be paying retribution for any wet pirate before the day is out.

[Sue]

Hit,

Obama is still trying to figure out what to do. Meanwhile, arrogant Americans have booted the pirates off their ship. Reports are saying the first attempt by the pirates to board the ship were thwarted by using water cannons. Their second attempt was successful. I bet they are wishing they had not succeeded the 2nd time around.

[MayBee]

TC- you're probably right.
I'm not advocating a VAT, by the way. I'm just trying to figure out why it makes sense to additionally tax things Americans obviously need (as narciso pointed out).
The high gas prices last summer were devastating. It doesn't make a difference to the consumer if the money is going to Exxon in the form of profit or the government in the form of taxes.

I also want to take this opportunity to mention the incredible naivete of our president, who seems to think by taxing our carbon we will be setting an example and encourage India and China to 'go green'.

[RichatUF]

Jane-

No, some of those white-shoe law firms, which specalize in the Gitmo detainees, will file suit this afternoon claiming emotional distress and a stiff neck needing significant medical care on behalf of the pirates. And the word pirate is so archaic too maybe those white shoes can come up with a spiffy, modern name...unberthed sailors, undocumented cargo inspectors...I've got nothing.

[Fresh Air]

Obama is still trying to figure out what to do. Meanwhile, arrogant Americans have booted the pirates off their ship.

Toqueville would not have been surprised by this. He would have been surprised if that hadn't been the case.

[DebinNC]

Thank God there are still real men around willing and able to do what's required without waiting for help from the metrosexuals in the WH.

[Sue]

American crew members aboard a U.S.-flagged ship have regained control of the vessel hijacked by pirates off the coast of Somalia Wednesday, FOX News confirms.

One pirate is reportedly in custody. A U.S. official said the status of the other pirates is unknown but they were reported to "be in the water."

Smile with me. Grin even. Laugh out loud.

Rich,

Might I suggest 'wet noodles' as their new name?

[Rick Ballard]

"In your world, are there any clean socialists?"

There have never been any clean socialists in any world. Socialism was dirty at inception. It is, and always has been, theft coupled with enslavement for the purpose of aggregation of power to the least productive elements of society. Socialism and its incestuous cousins, communism and fascism, are sworn enemies of personal liberty and personal property as well as being the rationale for the greatest wars in history.

With all the best intentions, of course.

Which makes it even dirtier.

[MayBee]

Reports are saying the first attempt by the pirates to board the ship were thwarted by using water cannons.

You can tell Bush isn't President anymore, because we'd be hearing about how water cannons "caramelize" the skin.

Obama has heard about the water cannons, however, and is thinking Super Soakers are the new way to win end the War on Terror Overseas Contingency Operations.

[Jane]

No, some of those white-shoe law firms, which specalize in the Gitmo detainees, will file suit this afternoon claiming emotional distress and a stiff neck needing significant medical care on behalf of the pirates.

Harummph! How typical of Obamafiles to wear white shoes before Memorial Day!

[Fresh Air]

China and India have no intention of going green, or any other color. IIRC, they increased the number of coal-fired power plants by 40 percent in two years. Maybe Whitehall can help with the data.

By 2030, they will have increased CO2 output by the amount the U.S. now produces. This is bloody madness.

[RichatUF]

Not only are the Dems looking at an air tax to assuage their superstitions, they are looking at some peculiar rituals to calm their air gods too. This won't end well.

[Rick Ballard]

"If I understand this right, the government would tax me for using energy that releases CO2 and then pay me a credit to make it revenue neutral?"

Not exactly, SBW. The dirty socialists do plan to tax you for you are productive. They will then choose those among the nonproductive deemed "in need" of a credit.

You get to pay for panem et circenses but you won't get to eat any of the panem and you're barred from attending the circense. You're obviously unfit to associate with those "in need" because you, through your filthy greed, have accumulated enough surplus so that it may be taken from you.

That'll teach you.

[Sue]

Jane,

Down in my neck of the woods, you couldn't wear white before Easter. I've often wondered if that had something to do with the only time you got new shoes was for Easter and the start of school?

[MayBee]

Fresh Air- It is madness.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

Thank God there are still real men around willing and able to do what's required without waiting for help from the metrosexuals in the WH.

When you know it's the 21st century's Jimmy Carter who has your back should you be taken hostage, I imagine one is motivated to fight a little harder at the outset to avoid such an outcome.

[Rick Ballard]

"It is madness."

Hardly. It is a scheme with a wholly rational political basis. Politicians will be able to pick and choose winners and losers at will. It's a perfect tool for dirty socialists and it's been used in Europe (through extraordinarily high fuel taxes) for well over forty years. It's an easy sell to the ignorant - it gives them a nice glow about "saving the planet" plus they'll get a nice warm feeling about "helping people in need" while their pockets are being picked.

It will be truly revenue neutral for those sitting in their Section 8 housing waiting for a welfare check and their monthly ration of food stamps. The rest of us, not so much - watch as the "payroll tax cut" is submerged under "save Social Security" payroll tax increases.

[Fresh Air]

So when Zero is done pouring sugar in the gas tank of the U.S. economy, how long before the engine conks out?

[sbw]

If pirates were boarding, and Americans fired water on them, they were being waterboarded. Waterboarding is torture. Call NPR, CNN, the NYTimes, and Seymour Hersh!

[narciso]

I repeat, it's a deeply stupid idea, which par for the course, means it will likely be adopted in some form. I don't buy the whole birth certificate scam idea, but if he was a Manchurian/Arabian/Soviet President, would
he do anything differently than he does now. At some point, even Camille Paglia's
going to figure this out.

[Jane]

If pirates were boarding, and Americans fired water on them, they were being waterboarded. Waterboarding is torture.

That is grounds for impeachment if I recall correctly.

[Old Lurker]

Folks, it's a wonderful twofer.

Above posters focus on the (gazillion $$$) air tax on us, and rightly so. THAT will check off one of the vital 30's stepping stones toward global depression.

Posters have not mentioned "The bill implements a fee on carbon-intensive imports, as well, to press China to follow suit." Did he say "fee"? Of course that's just another word for global tarrif on virtually all imports into the US. That checks off the second major contributer to the Great Depression.

Are they really this evil...or are they really just stupid?

Does even Kim know?

PS, will somebody please go over there and tell Kim to come home?

[Sue]

Uh, oh. I may have to stop laughing. The captain of the ship is still being held hostage by the pirates. According Fox.

[Old Lurker]

Mom would not be pleased:

"TarrifF"

"ContributOr"

"really just stupid" is better "just really stupid"

[Syl]

If CO2 does indeed drive climate, then it is absolutely necessary for the benefit of mankind that we reach CO2 levels of at least 500 PPM. And to be safe, using the precautionary principle, we should go up to at least 750 PPM because of the power of the natural carbon sinks to remove CO2 and its benefits from the atmosphere over time.

The carbon cycle is NOT a zero sum game and the planet is now carbon poor.

Kurschner discovered through his paleo studies with plant stomata that glaciation did not occur when ppm levels were at or above 500 ppm. At a level of around 300 ppm the planet drops into a deep glaciation lasting 90-100,000 years when other factors coincide and has done so for the past 100 million years.

750 ppm of CO2 or DIE!!!

On the other hand, if CO2 does NOT drive the climate, then there is nothing to worry about anyway.

[narciso]

This is what happens, OL, when you start contemplating stupid ideas too deeply (Smoot Hartlet, the Edsel, the series finale to BSG) well it starts to seep in, no an occasional mistype is better than a prefectly written paragraph; that makes no sense (re; Friedman, Collins, Rich, Dowd, Kristof)Do they keep the sober economists like Goolsbee and Moran, on a leash, and then scrub their brain, Because this is deeply misinformed

[bad]

I build nuclear power plants for a living.

I ♥ nuclear power.

[RichatUF]

OL-

Thanks for pointing out the tariff side of the great idea. Got so long winded on the "revenue netural" aspect of it forgot the Smoot-Hawley aspects.

It seems like such a bad idea it must have significant support in Washington DC.

[Fresh Air]

Are they really this evil...or are they really just stupid?

This is a very interesting question. I have to believe based upon watching and listening to Zero for a while that he is unbelievably ignorant. He inhales liberal aphorisms and exhales them like the exhaust from a Kool 100. So there is a great deal of evidence that he is simply very stupid, very poorly informed or both.

BUT...I am coming to believe he doesn't care if he makes rubble of the economy, as it is the rich (read: white) people who will suffer (in his mind, anyway). He has no concept whatsoever of Schumpeter's theories on entrepreneurial capitalism, and utterly fails to grasp the notion of people as economic actors who will modify their behavior instantly in response to government actions, versus inputs in a giant collectivist machine. (As an aside, what good are "shovel-ready" projects in an information-based economy? Does anyone in Washington even understand how the labor force has changed in 70 years?)

Based upon the available biographical information, I believe Zero's animating and organizing beliefs are essentially African Marxism. He collects concepts from Eurocratic socialism, but these are simply weigh-stations on the way to the destruction of the Capitalist State.

There is no other good explanation for what has been happening. Harry & Nancy are simply useful idiots who put the commie train on the trails. I'm not even sure if all Zero's advisers are fully aware of what's happening. The American people will sure find out soon, though. You can't kick off the Great Depression II without anyone noticing. Though the Mediacrat scum will try to hide it as long as possible.

[Jane]

BUT...I am coming to believe he doesn't care if he makes rubble of the economy, as it is the rich (read: white) people who will suffer (in his mind, anyway).

I keep thinking he knows he has got his no matter what happens so the rest of the world is a playground.

[Daddy]

Being sexually provocative this should probably go on the Gay thread, but on the morning after our citizens Tax Cap victory and Sarah hater Walt Monegan's defeat, what does the Anchorage paper lead off with?

">http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/newsreader/story/752805.html"> Red Sarah The Barbarian.

[RichatUF]

I'm also a bit surprised that he didn't include a vinegarette about him and his environmentalist friends doodling on a napkin at a beachside resort in Dubai coming up with the next Laffer Curve for taxes and carbon.

Also Gen. Jones selling an ET plan from his position as National Security Advisor? Wouldn't the kooks running the EPA and his "climate czar" office be more honest?

[Old Lurker]

Rich, considering the extra bucks involved (until the imports cease altogether), I am sure you are right about the DC support. Not to mention the unions...

[PeterUK]

"I'm not even sure if all Zero's advisers are fully aware of what's happening."

Well,that makes a full house then,as sure as eggs are eggs Obama hasn't a clue.
You are looking at an archetypal liberal dickhead,garbage in garbage out.
Like Tony Baloney Bliar,Obama will say anything that makes him sound good and gets him further up thr greasy pole.Tomorrow,like Mr Toad,Obama will have a new obsession.

[Old Lurker]

FA, to further your point, I was watching the tape of his speech in Turkey - the one that used a townhall type format. That was when he slammed GWB again as not believing in AGW, but Obama does and intends to lead the earth out of it. Then he made the statement that fits your narrative:

WTTE "...well if we order the power companies to generate their power in a much more expensive way, and way that costs them a lot more money...then those guys are gonna wanna make their customers pay for those higher costs..."

While you can diagram his sentence and see that it is factually correct, the point is his tone and delivery made the evil power company sound greedy and unreasonable in taking that position. Right out of his play book I suppose. And as usual scary stupid about the way businesses and economies work.

[Old Lurker]

"archetypal liberal dickhead"

ding ding ding.

Bumpersticker for the week!

[Fresh Air]

OL--

Love that construction "...those guys are gonna wanna make their customers pay for those higher costs..."

This is not a smart person speaking. I'm sure he didn't take an economics class, but this is like, world-class stupid. Even Richie Daley understands companies have to make a profit to stay in business.

[Jim Glass]

One of the great virtues of cap and trade was that it was a tax in disguise, but Friedman argues that game is lost

Of course that's the first game politicians are born play: "lie to eve^h^h^h, er, "hide the truth" -- and the Times op-eders are the first to lament when that game is lost ... at least when it's the Dems playing it .

[jimmyk]

There's no such thing as a revenue neutral tax, because there's no benchmark to judge "neutral." Whenever the tax base is expanded, taxes and spending increase. I might believe it if they set some other tax rate to zero, but otherwise this is just a ruse to find more ways to buy 51% of the votes.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

In your world, are there any clean socialists? Have the constabulary nationalized all the soap?

I think "dirty" in this context is more like "dirty pederasts".

[narciso]

It'a awfully old up, isn't it Flynn, I'm surprised that image has taken that long to get your neck of the woods; it's very much the Sarah Douglas villainous queen rolefrom the second Conan film that they're going for. And of course,Barak is the hero, but who are you really supposed to root for?

So now that Monaghan is out, whose the better candidate,Sullivan or Croft. It's ironic how the slayer of Snowzilla, Begich
left the city with 20 million in debt, yet
people are whining over a sports center, now ten years after it was issued.

[Old Lurker]

"I'm sure he didn't take an economics class, but this is like, world-class stupid."

No problem, FA, he has the brain trust of Pelosi, Reid, Frank & Dodd to guide him. Total IQ 100+/-.

[sbw]

Are they really this evil...or are they really just stupid?

Beautifully addressed, Fresh, but our Zero has another facet yet to be described. He's basically defective. His narcissistic personality so screws him up that as much as he can see the damage left in his wake, he could not admit to it.

"What have I done!" is outside the realm of possibility for him. he must create more noise to shut out the possibility of criticism leaking in.

If you want evil, don't look at Zero; look at Axelgrease, Rahm, and dear, dear Michelle. Look at the keepers who must stroke him, and train him, and script him, and keep him away from a mirror.

Harvey 'Big Daddy' Pollitt: There ain't nuthin' more powerful than the smell of mendacity!

[PeterUK]

"...those guys are gonna wanna make their customers pay for those higher costs..."

You're not reading this correctly.Picture him in an astrakhan coat,a white wide brimmed fedora,white on white shirt and tie,diamond stick and perhaps a scar. Read it again.

"...dese guys are gonna wanna make de customers pay for dose higher costs..."

[sbw]

There is a big noise yet to be heard. The roar of an outraged America. And it's going to cut a wide swath through the trough-feeders and tit-suckers, thank goodness.

[Pofarmer]

I build nuclear power plants for a living. This new tax would just make my business grow and increase demand for my services.

Yeah, sorry, nuclear power has been deemed "Not Green".

No Soup for you!!!!!

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

He's basically defective.

I think the word for Barry is one used so accurately by the great Jean Shepherd about similar chuckleheads:
He's a faker.
He is just smart enough, knows just enough surface facts about many subjects, has just enough facile gifts to fake his way through life on a tightrope, always wondering if the world is going to finally find him out and amazed and unduly proud that it hasn't yet.

[Pofarmer]

I have to believe based upon watching and listening to Zero for a while that he is unbelievably ignorant

Yep, and I'm getting really tired hearing Newt Gingrich say how unbeleivably smart he is.

[bad]

Politico reports that Obama DID NOT bow according to an anonymous Obama aide. It merely looked like that because Obama is taller.

Someone needs to break the news to all of the lefties who thought the bow, when it was a bow, was a good idea.

ha ha ha ha ha ha aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

LUN

[bad]

dang, LUN

[bad]

I watched the video at Politico again and have decided that it wasn't a bow, it was a bow accompanied by a hand kiss.

[narciso]

The point it was a bow, a genuflection, maybe out of genetic memory with the Kenyan
longstanding ties to Arabia. Closing Gitmo with 1/3 of the original complement of detainees being Saudis, the 15/19hijackers, the largest single percentage of shaheeds in Iraq. The likely extradition of the people who directed the interrogation program, to other countries. The closing of the extant, oil (including shale)gas & coal reserves, all are of a piece.

[Thomas Collins]

Bad, thanks for LUNing it. Perhaps the White House denial will bring more attention to it. It looks more like a bow in the motion shots than in the still. DhimmiO clearly bows and then continues shaking hands with the Saudi after the bow. When DhimmiO is shaking hands after the bow, even though DhimmiO is taller, he doesn't have to stoop.

[Fresh Air]

Yep, and I'm getting really tired hearing Newt Gingrich say how unbeleivably smart he is.

Doesn't Newt have a witches brew to hop in or something?

[PeterUK]

bad,
Yes it looked like Obama was kissing his ring.
The whole sorry afair shows how little Obama or his advsors know about the oriental mind.In all probability this was engineered to make Obama appear to be bowing.The Chinese are past masters at this kind of thing.The prat will get pwned across the planet.

[Old Lurker]

"it was a bow accompanied by a hand kiss."

what makes you think "hand"???

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

The prat will get pwned across the planet.

LOL, at first, PUK, except we get pwned right along with him.

[Tina]

This is off topic, but I think at least Clarice might be interested, if not others. Drudge is FINALLY headlining the Bow. The White House is claiming it wasn't a bow....LOL. This is almost as good (bad) as "it depends on what the meaning of "is" is".

[Fresh Air]

what makes you think "hand"???

True. It could have been any number of crooked, shriveled things attached to the King.

[bad]

Perhaps the White House denial will bring more attention to it.

You're welcome, TC. I hope more attention is brought to bear. What did polling tell them that made the WH decide to offer a denial?

[Porchlight]

It looks more like a bow in the motion shots than in the still.

Even in the still shot, Obama's head is at the level of Abdullah's shoulder. No way would Obama have to bend down that far just to shake his hand. And why is Obama's right leg stretched out behind him?

I agree that the denial is going to revive the story just as it was dying down. Dumb move by the WH.

[bad]

LOL

[Whitehall]

We were just discussing how many additional reactor orders we are in negotiations with in India and China and how many our international competitors were expected to get.

The answers were - probably more than we and our competitors are comfortable handling. It will be a challenge to expand our global design,fabrication, and construction infrastructure. Human resources will be the limitation for some years.

The demand for electricity in China and India is huge - nuclear will capture some of the market but coal will remain the market leader for many years to come. Nuclear will remain a drop in the bucket for decades. Of course, the Chinese are building a plant to pre-fab big chunks of the plants so one could just stack up the pre-fab modules and weld them together. That will speed up things considerably.

Bottom line - carbon-based fuels aren't going away. We pissed away 30 years when we should have been building many nukes.

[bad]

Agreed, Whitehall.

[centralcal]

KLo at the Corner received this:

A reader e-mails: "I did not have 'salutational' relations with that man."

Too funny. Today's denial now reignites the issue. Soon they will have to deny the denial.

[bad]

That's funny, CC.

[daddy]

Narciso,

Sullivan is a very decent guy, both Conservative and fiscally conservative, and the only major guy to loudly support the Tax Cap. He needed 45% to win outright but only got 43%. The Dem candidates will all now line up behind Croft, who only got 18%, but will join together to try to defeat Sullivan. Today their talking point is blaming our Property Tax Cap for misleading voters into coming out and voting, thus skewering the election and causing the defeat of various school bonds.

Interestingly, the junkyard guy who built Snowzilla got 113 votes for Mayor.

I can't tell where Fagan sat on the Tax Cap because he wouldn't talk about it 2 weeks back, and I've been gone almost that long. Maybe I'll find out today. Unfortunately I think its simply going to be comments about Levi Johnson's Talk Show circuit attacks on Sarah, as that allows him to continue trashing the Palin's. It'll be interesting to see how Fagan does it, because you'll recall that Fagan was the guy who successfully started the attack machine rolling by accusing Sarah of using nepotism to get Levi an oil rig apprenticeship. Normally, now observing Levi trashing Sarah, that would be a cause for a person to do a mea culpa about a previous false nepotism attack, but Fagan is consistent only in his hatred of Sarah, so I'll see if he notices his disconnect.

[bad]

A lefty at Tapper who has been supportive of the bow is now saying the WH aide is wrong about the bow not being a bow.

LUN

[bad]

Olbermann is spitting mad at Obama about wiretaps. He claims Obama is going beyond Bush/Cheney.

LUN

[Fresh Air]

Well, if it wasn't a bow, it was damn sure a curtsey! Maybe he was just punch drunk and thought it was Prince Philip. Oh wait...

[bad]

Is it just me, or does that picture at Drudge make Obama's butt look big?

[daddy]

Whitehall,

Fairly close acquaintances are somewhat involved in the Nuke Power Business, particularly the Non-Destructive (eddy current) business of detecting flaws in welds etc. In the very early 90's, Chinese guys would come Stateside to be trained on the technology and the equipment they were purchasing, but problems started arising as significant enough numbers of them started declaring "Political Asylum" while over here, that my acquaintances then had to start going off into the hinterlands of to do the instructing, so as to avoid that problem. Have heard many interesting stories over beers over the years about what OSHA might think of the blossoming Chinese Nuclear Industry. 'Nuff said.

[PeterUK]

"And why is Obama's right leg stretched out behind him? "

Obowma is a multi-tasker,he was curtseying at the same time.
Many say this is not important,but to the Arab street a moment of joy,they have their man in the White House at last.
Obowma is very traditional for a progressive,pledging fealty so publicly.

[hit and run]

Bad:
Politico reports that Obama DID NOT bow according to an ***anonymous*** Obama aide.

I'm just saying, has anyone seen bgates lately?

[Fresh Air]

I thought bgates was being audited for stamping money "TAX CHEAT."

[bad]

HIT, GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!

[PeterUK]

BTW.How is Obama going to explain it when he goes on Haj?