Setting Limits

Steve Chapman of Reason does not seem to have an appreciation for shades of gray in the torture debate.  His Big Finish:

And if effectiveness is the only gauge, why even debate whether these techniques fit the definition of torture? The problem with using "it worked" as an argument is that it justifies too much. By that rationale, we can justify subjecting enemy captives to every form of torture ever devised. We can even justify torturing and killing their spouses, siblings, parents, and children, right in front of them.

Cheney and others have yet to advocate going that far. But if they really believe what they say about the techniques we've used, here's a question they need to answer: Why not?

Well, "it worked" is one part of the argument.  If the enhanced interrogation techniques were ineffective they would have no justification at all, but the reverse does not follow.

And while decrying an absence of limits Mr. Chapman is incredibly hazy about his own:

Enforced sleeplessness, [Solzhenitsyn] explained, was favored because it was cheap, easy, and left no marks on the prisoner—not to mention that it was effective. Solzhenitsyn attested from bitter experience that "it is not really necessary to use a rack or hot coals to drive a human being out of his mind."

But American intelligence officials also learned something from the Soviets about manipulating language to conceal reality. When our enemies use methods like this, they amount to torture. When we do, they don't. A newly released 2002 memo from a Bush administration official authorized keeping prisoners awake because "we are not aware of any evidence that sleep deprivation results in severe physical pain or suffering."

...The former is obviously untrue as well as dishonest: Solzhenitsyn makes that clear. So do numerous U.S. government reports accusing various regimes of violating human rights through such forms of torture as sleep deprivation. Likewise, the U.S. government used to take a negative view of waterboarding. But apparently we only object when we're not the ones doing it.

Is that really all Mr. Chapman took from his study of the OLC memos?  Let me pose the same riddle I posed earlier today - is all sleep deprivation "torture"?  How about four hours?  How about for four days?  (I think we will all conced four weeks is torture).  Does Mr. Chapman recognize any limit at all, or do prisoners have some heretofore unrecognized Universal Right to Naptime?  (And does that right extend to Presidential advisers?)

And if Mr. Chapman is bold enough to pick a limit, as the OLC lawyers were asked to do, why is he right?  Why can't we decide, in the fullness of time and with the benefit of hindsight, that Mr. Chapman is a lawless torturere for having opined that. e.g., forty-eight hours of sleeplessness can be inflicted when every right-thinking person knows the correct limit is thirty-six?

I wonder what the OLC should have done when faced with the question of when and whether sleep deprivation crosses the line into torture.  The safe course would have been to find a Universal Right to Naptime, but I don't know how realistic that would have been.  And I am curious to see how Mr. Chapman chooses. 

Comments

[Rick Ballard]

This is a massive push by the Moveon Moron wing of the (D)irty Socialist party.

Verner,

I'll second cboldt. Not gold. What appears to be happening is a swap out of agency paper (primarily held by insurance companies and pension funds) for new Treasury debt. I don't see any new money going into the economy at all. Not yet anyway. We could very easily see additional strong deflation before we ever get to the inflationary stage. It sort of depends on where the stimulus money actually goes.

So far it looks like crack and liquor are going to get most of it.

[verner]

Well, that would make it even less bad cathyf. And it would put us back to KSM saying that he had only been WBded 5 times.

[narciso]

He's from Covington & Burling, one of the terrorist's law firms. One of the deputy atty generals was from Wilmer Cutler, Jamie Gorelick's firm, also knee deep in the terrorist bar. There's a fine line between stupid and evil, and Mr. Holder has crossed it. This is Dawn Johnsen's handiwork, the one who called Cheney and Bush, akin to gangsters. I'm sorry, but I can't help but
weap for my country, with what they are trying to do, and half succeeding.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I am now persuaded we find the dumbest people we can find anywhere and put them in these positions.

Nah, DIA is just another source for the competent people. If they identify one at DIA they're transferred to NSA.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I don't see any new money going into the economy at all. Not yet anyway.

Anotehr story running today was that something like $250 billion of current funding in the stimulus bill couldn't be spent yet, because of contracting rules etc.

Which, you know, sounds like something someone predicted before it passed.

[RichatUF]

bad-

Its 10.5 megs.

From the executive summary:

**The announced expansion of TALF to permit the posting of MBS as collateral poses significant fraud risks, particularly with respect to legacy residential MBS (“RMBS”). SIGTARP has made a series of recommendations
to mitigate these risks, including, among others, that Treasury should require a security-by-security screening for legacy RMBS; that any RMBS should be rejected as collateral if the loans backing particular RMBS do not meet certain baseline underwriting criteria or are in categories that have been proven to be riddled with fraud, including certain undocumented subprime residential mortgages (i.e., “liar loans”); and that Treasury should require significantly higher haircuts for all MBS, with particularly high haircuts for legacy RMBS.**

Should make the Obama Administration's mortgage modification programs grind to a halt (there is a subheading for mortgage modification as well with another dogs breakfest of recommendations).

**Aspects of PPIP make it inherently vulnerable to fraud, waste, and abuse, including significant issues relating to conflicts of interest facing fund managers, collusion between participants, and vulnerabilities to money laundering.**

Wasn't Geithner the "man in the room", and his tax issues aside, "he'd hit the ground running"?

If a report as bad as the executive summary were released during any previous Administration it'd be a front page scandal. With the Obama Administration-its business as usual.

[RichatUF]

Ooops-I suppose the TALF isn't part of the mortgage modification program, but I'm not sure what a bank would want to do with MBS that were rejected for TALF funding. Burn them for energy maybe since Obama seems to hate energy producers too.

Anyway.

And the story with the Freddie's CFO killing himself. It is usually a precursor to a spectacular failure when something happens to the CFO of a company. Not sure Obama will be able to launder his 40 acers and a 3 bd 2 br program through Freddie once details of the investigation leak.

[Elliott]

If I may revise and extend my remarks...

*Spelling in honor of St. George's England day, if I recall correctly

I hope you had a good one, PUK!

[JM Hanes]

RichatUF:

"I'm not sure how Obama's surge into Afghanistan is going to be supported if Pakistan blows up and the Russians and Iranians are arm twisting in Central Asia."

Pakistan falls apart, India rolls over Balochistan, China sweeps through the mountains, wipes Swat off the map, and they divide the spoils between them. Peace and tourists descend upon Kashmir, Obama takes the credit and adds a fourth corner to the pyramid he's building on the backs of Lincoln, FDR, MLK and Ghandi.

[MayBee]

I ♥ Heokstra. So the rest of you conniving JOM wimmin can forget about getting anywhere near him.

Oh, I think not.
He is from my home state (how many can I claim?) AND a few months ago my husband had to ask me my favorite Congressperson (for school) and I named Hoekstra.
Plus, I spelled his name right.

So.
Later, JMH.

[MayBee]

no! no! It was my SON that asked me for school.

[Topsecretk9]

Lefty heads explode Democrats retreat on "torture" investigation. Obama flip flops again

[Ann]

Tops, your link is a member link.

JOM, First thing this morning read AT:
Obama, Alinsky, and Scapegoats
By James Lewis
and then think about this:Holder Will Reveal Alleged Prison Photos...
Moreover, he must deflect attacks from conservatives such as former Vice President Dick Cheney, who accuses Obama of putting the country's security at risk and would surely affix blame to the new president if another attack occurred. Cheney has asked that additional documents be released showing the successes of harsh interrogation tactics -- handing Obama another politically complicated decision.

[daddy]

Correct Ann,

This release of new Abu Ghraib photo's is exactly timed to get the public re-whipped up again against Cheney/Bush, and to paint the Disgraced Army Gal as a dutiful victim of their complicity just following orders.
When I wake up tomorrow, that's going to be the meme of the day. Amazing to me that these guys now in power recognize no enemies anywhere on the planet, except American Conservatives.

[davod]

It is my understanding that the report on Enhanced Interrogations is based in part on the report of the Office of the CIA Inspector General.

I have to wonder about the accuracy of the report, given the steps taken by some in the "neutral" Civil Service to color various other reports.

I believe the CIA Inspector General's office included at least one possible leaker, the woman who left just before she was due to retire.

Would anyone directly involved with the Enhanced Interrogations dare to come forward to rebut the report?

[Ann]

It seems there is a witching hour when typepad disregards all html commands.
OK, here is the AT article: http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/04/obama_alinsky_and_scapegoats.html

Here is the Holder carp: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-interrogate24-2009apr24,0,4199113.story

It sounds like the local guy on radio had the story first...imagine that?

Let us see if blockquote works:

Holder Will Reveal Alleged Prison Photos... Moreover, he must deflect attacks from conservatives such as former Vice President Dick Cheney, who accuses Obama of putting the country's security at risk and would surely affix blame to the new president if another attack occurred. Cheney has asked that additional documents be released showing the successes of harsh interrogation tactics -- handing Obama another politically complicated decision.

[JM Hanes]

Well, if Typepad posts this, it will be the first comment that hasn't just spun endlessly on the preview button since I tried posting hours ago.

[JM Hanes]

Apparently the trick is to skip preview completely, and just hit post. Same thing happened to me last night. So here goes, just have to hope I closed all my tags:

Yo Tops:

This whole thing is so hysterical. From your article:
The White House and the Democratic leadership in the Senate signaled on Thursday that they would block for now any effort to establish an independent commission to investigate the Bush administration’s approval of harsh interrogation techniques

And then there's this from Clarice's Politico link:
At a White House meeting Thursday, President Obama told Congressional leaders that he thinks it would be a mistake to set up a commission to investigate excesses of the Bush administration’s war on terror.



“The president said that given all that’s on the agenda and the pressing issues facing the country, that a backward-looking investigation would not be productive,” a White House official who attended the session said. “The president was very clear…that he believes it’s important that there’s not a witch hunt.”

Oh man! You'd think that they were standing up to Republicans demanding an investigation, wouldn't you? Looks like Cheney & Hoekstra scared the hell out of them. BOO!

MayBee ~

You can let Pete and me know when you get the school thing sorted out. I'll ask him if I can share the clandestine spelling protocol with the home team.

[JM Hanes]

I'm betting y'all can intuit the block quotes above.

[Extraneus]

Thanks for the AT link, Ann. I think this Alinsky statement applies less and less to the left, though.

"Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution."

Maybe everyone should read his book. No reason we shouldn't all play by the same rules.

[Pofarmer]

"Maybe everyone should read his book. No reason we shouldn't all play by the same rules."

I really, really don't want to.

[hit and run]

JMH:
I ♥ Heokstra. So the rest of you conniving JOM wimmin can forget about getting anywhere near him.

MayBee:
Oh, I think not.

I come here for the political commentary, current events discussions, a first-rate education on financial markets, history, philosophy and so many other things.

But I stay for the catfights!

But let's be honest, it's not really a party until the mudwrestling gauntlet is thrown out there.

So...

Can we help stoke such behavior?

Yes We Can!

[clarice]

Typepad ate a long post of mine last night , too, after I previewed it. Skip oreview..Unless you want to waste a lot of time.

[clarice]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't remind me of the dirty dealing on that cruise ever again!!!!

[cathyf]

clarice, I posted this on the other thread:

Did you get the error message saying "We're sorry, we cannot accept this data"? The reason that this happens is precisely that you have spent an hour working on your post. Enough other posts have gone up in the interim that typepad can't correctly add yours. The solution is simple -- refresh the page and then hit post.

In firefox/mac, at least, your post will not get deleted out of the edit box when you refresh. But if you spent an hour working on it, you don't want to rely on that! Push the Edit button if you aren't already there, click in the edit box and hit splat-A, splat-C (ctrl-A, ctrl-C for windows) before you hit refresh. Then if somehow your comment disappears then you can get it back out of the paste buffer (with splat/ctrl-V)

Also, somebody was complaining earlier about typhuspad refusing to post from preview. If you find yourself there, click on the Edit button, SelectAll+Copy your post, hit Refresh, then Post when it finishes refreshing.

[clarice]

cathy--you sure you don't want to come for a visit and shoe me how to use all this stuff while I feed you delicacies?

I get the first graph--noticed it myself. Easiest thing is always to make sure you are at the end of the thread before trying to post--esp. if you've spent a long time composing.

2d graoh--what edit button?
and that's a lot of what Danny Thomas used to call "baby talk".
Third graph is a fine idea..but please note TP will not print a post which is pasted in so add a new letter or something if you have to.

[boris]

"what edit button?"

When you are in Preview mode the Preview button changes to an Edit Button.

[clarice]

Ah--yes--well the last times I used preview I don't recall I even got to that point.

Since TP is the subject, how much would we all pay to get back the feature that permitted you to access the last post in any thread listed on the right hand panel?

I'd kick in a $100 myself. Every work around in time fails except going to the addy bar and changing the page no. to "6" or something..Very tedious.

[cathyf]

I haven't used the Recent Comments in ages. Here's my JOM enviroment:

Firefox (on mac) with add-ons TabMixPlus and bgates' narcisolator. It should be pretty much identical under windows.

I have all of my JOM in one window, with each thread in a separate tab. Each tab is scrolled to wherever I left off reading the thread (which usually means that the "Recent Comments" list is way up out of sight.). When a thread goes to the next page, I click on the ">>" link and open it in the same tab.

When I sit down to my computer after having been away for awhile, I click on the right-most (last) tab, and hit refresh. When it finishes refreshing, the scroll is put right where I left off, ready to start reading. Before I start reading, I right-click on the tab, and select "Reload Other Tabs" on the menu. (That's a TabMixPlus addition.) While those other tabs are grinding along loading, I read the new content in the last tab.

When I get to the end of that thread, I hit "Refresh" on that tab, and head over to the leftmost tab. It's probably been up for awhile, so it's dead and there are no new comments on it. I roll the page up so that I can see the "Recent Posts" list, and I can see if Tom has posted any new threads that I don't have open yet. If there are some, I right-click on the post titles and select "Open in New Tab" for each one, working up the list so that the most recent post ends up in the rightmost tab.

If the last post in this tab is more than a day or two old, I close it. Which sticks me in the next tab, with the scroll right there where I left off reading it. Most likely, it has no new comments, either. I move from left to right clicking on each tab, closing anything really dead, leaving up anything dying, until eventually I get to the tab that has new stuff posted. Which I read, leaving the cursor at the bottom of the comments, right above the "Post a comment" section, before going on to the next tab.

When I get to the last tab, as I start reading it, I right-click on the tab and select "Refresh Other Tabs" so that it can work while I'm reading.

Lather, rinse, repeat -- that's how I manage my nice comfy "JOM Nest". I don't care whether the Recent Comments links work, and it's been ages since I looked at the front page. I always know where I am in every thread and can pick right up where I left off. I even minimize the time I spend waiting for page Refreshes to happen -- firefox is really smart about giving top priority to you moving the cursor around in your tab that you are interacting with and shoving the stuff which is refreshing in an invisible tab into the background.

[clarice]

okay--I'll have to do that, too..Really, cathy, I do think you need a girl's week off and a trip back to your hometown though. XXXXXX

[davod]

Kathy. Thanks for the information. I was getting prettey cranky taking the time to work on a comment only to find that my comment cannot be accepted.

[JM Hanes]

I ♥ ♥ hit. And I'm saving the trophy to disk....

cathyf:

The bizarre thing about this particular problem is that it doesn't show up till around the same time, late at night, like around 2:00 or 3:00 am. It's not like the "won't accept data glitch" which happens, irregularly, round the clock. I suspect the spinning pinwheel crops up when Typepad is doing all their current software makeovers and attendant fixes -- which never appear in their system status reports, of course.

I remain convinced that TM has an out of date coding problem that just doesn't play nice with Typepad any more. Almost all the problems that keep cropping up are site specific to JOM. Constantly having to update the workarounds are like a blast from what now seems a distant past.

It suddenly occurs to me that I should have been putting all these various observations in an email, not in the comments. Which I will do as soon as I get back from the work I'm supposed to be doing now.

[JM Hanes]

I'll email TM the URL for the Typepad instruction page which explains how to include comment thread page numbers along with forward and reverse. Something else I also neglected to do, alas, after mentioning it in the comments. It would certainly make life easier at this end, and less tedious for TM too, I would think, than having to compose individual end-of-thread links all the time.

[clarice]

I see you're agling for another Ms Congeniality ribbon ,JMH. Very obvious.

[clarice]

**aNgling**

(I'm taking a break.)