Sullivan Comes Out In Favor Of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", Then Makes Stuff Up

It's an emotional cyclone today at the Daily Dish.  Barack Obama cites Sully's tribute to Winston Churchill, in which we are informed that only cowards like Dick Cheney torture, not heroes like Winston Churchill.  The highs!

Then Ben Smith busts Sully and Barack, with Churchill as collateral damage.  Based on a report in The Guardian, Lt. Col. Alexander Scotland led a torture center known as the London Cage during WWII.  It looks like Churchill and the Brits weren't above the rough stuff - the lows!

But Sullivan mans up:

The man who ran the center was trained in the German army in Namibia, and may have been acting independently. If Churchill or others at the highest levels of command knew about and approved of this torture, then they are complicit and equally guilty of these war crimes. But that is not at all clear from the historical record - and the notion that "Churchill tortured" goes beyond the facts as they appear.

Ah, well, as long as Churchill preserved deniability, it's all good.  Don't ask, don't tell.

Then Sullivan tries his hand at historical fiction.  First, he delivers two Wikipedia excerpts; the first is from the Guy Liddell diary of 1940 (Mr. Liddell was Director of B Division in charge of counter-espionage at MI5):

Liddell said in a diary entry that Scotland was "hitting TATE in the jaw and I think got one back himself." Liddell said: "Apart from the moral aspects of the thing, I am convinced that these Gestapo methods do not pay in the long run."  (Liddell was trying to run TATE as a double agent against the Germans - TATE had been captured parachuting into England and Liddell hoped to have him radio phoby reports back to his German handlers.)

The second relates to a Guy Liddell excerpt from 1943:

In 1943, allegations of mistreatment at the London Cage resulted in a formal protest to the Secretary of State for War by MI5 director Maxwell Knight. ^[33] The allegations were made by Otto Witt, a German anti-Nazi who was interrogated to determine if he was acting on behalf of German intelligence.

Now the creative bit, as Sullivan wraps this up for us,or at least, rationalizes it for himself:

When the head of MI5 is demanding the disciplining of Scotland, and insisting that torture doesn't work, we are in a very different situation than one in which the president himself has approved of torture in classified memos and the CIA director is insisting that the methods did in fact work and should remain as part of an official program of interrogation.

We are indeed!  Or would be, if this was what was happening.  Let's follow the Wiki footnote to the Guy Liddell diary excerpt cited from 1943 for some context:

June 26, 1943: The Witt case had blown up in a rather unpleasant way. Maxwell [a high ranking Home Office official] has written a letter intended for the S of S for War in which the Home Secretary expresses his grave displeasure and concern at the treatment of Witt at the London District Cage [of Colonel Scotland]. Witt has made a number of allegations about ill-treatment which have been denied. The only admission is that Wiesner slapped his face,. If the denials are accepted it seems an
incredible thing that two secretaries of States should be drawn into a matter which involves a lying little Nazi having had his face slapped by a Czech.

[. . .] the DG feels rather hot about it although we are not directly concerned since the incident did not take place on our premises.  At some stage in the proceedings it is alleged that Milmo or Sneath said that it was the British Govt’s view that it was better than nine innocent men should be executed than that one guilty one should escape. This statement was merely made to frighten Witt, but it is argued that information extracted in fear is of no value. I rather wonder what Maxwell would say if he read all the 020 reports. I am quite convinced that no physical violence is practiced at 020 but all sorts of threats are made without which in many cases one would not get at the truth. It all depends on the man you are dealing with. If the HO think that they can handle spies with kid gloves on, it is about time someone disillusioned them. I am going to suggest to the DG that he should see [Sir P J] Grigg personally about this case and try and get it back on more sensible lines.

Yeah, that sure sounds like MI5 was pushing hard to rein in Lt. Col. Scotland because they were worried that he is abusing prisoners.  Don't ask, don't tell, don't wear kid gloves.

If we are in "a very different situation" it is because the Brits didn't want to know what was being done elsewhere in London.  And this is heroism?

Comments

[ben]

Why do we keep discussing a morally bankrupt, intellectually dishonest, pathetic figure like Andrew Sullivan. This is a guy who went all out for Kerry because Bush was too conservative a Republican for him (and according to Sullivan Kerry was more fiscally responsible ???), then ran horrendous false stories about McCain and Palin on a daily basis (was McCain too conservative a Republican) and positively grovels before his Lord Obama. We might as well start giving Mark Moulitsas a forum.

[Sue]

The truth, and history, is whatever they want it to be. Who's going to question them? Besides you, I mean? The truth is whatever Obama wants it to be.

[Dave]

Liddell said in a diary entry that Scotland was "hitting TATE in the jaw and I think got one back himself." Liddell said: "Apart from the moral aspects of the thing, I am convinced that these Gestapo methods do not pay in the long run."

http://www.frontiernet.net/~joe14580/fish%20slapping%20dance.gif>

[verner]

Oy, Andy made the love object look the fool. No more fancy dinners at the Watergate for you!

[lurking]

Heh, how to turn 'treatment resistant' facts into apparently willing partners in healing.

[lurking]

More heh; consider that if Britain hadn't tortured, then Obama would be addressing us in German.

[Sue]

Dave,

Thanks, I needed that. ::grin::

[Ann]

Dave,

I meant to express my appreciation for your photos the other night. BRAVO!!!

Now, I am just speechless. How did you do that?
Please tell me I can do that with Photobucket.

By the way, Welcome to JOM!

That so reminds me of Clarice, I don't know why. LOL :)

[Dave]

Ann, that's not my work up there. The other night was, but this one is just a link.

[Ann]

Dave, How do you link to running video?
---------------------------------
And Clarice, I meant that in the most glowing regard to your smack down of stupid everyday.
xxxooo

[Dave]

Oh, and the images are simply URLs embedded in IMG tags. (I wonder if our proprietor is going to clamp down and put the kibosh on twhat's probably an unintended feature of the blog and adds a certain element of risk.)

[Dave]

Ann, it's not a video; it's only a multipart .gif file. Thanks for the nice welcome, although I'm not really new, just a sporadic commenter who's been mostly lurking since the Plame case heated up.

[Barry Dauphin]

As Mickey Kaus said-- the scariest thing he's learned about Obama is that he reads Andrew Sullivan.

[Dave]

On second thought ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124101758039968837.html>Spanish Judge Probes U.S. Torture Allegations

... perhaps a different Monty Python picture would have been more appropriate.

[Jim]

Sir Martin Gilbert, one of if not the foremost biographer of Churchill, is still alive http://www.martingilbert.com/. He's written on Churchill's wartime papers. Perhaps if these ninnies rile him up enough, hopefully Sir Gilbert will set the record straight.

[Ann]

Dave,

We need more of you to speak up and join the conversation here. I am always surprised that many readers of JOM don't comment.

Thank goodness Caro, Stephanie, Dorothy Jane, etc. decided to comment. It makes us all richer and smarter.

You have a gift that keeps us laughing. The best gift of all.

[Fresh Air]

TM--

Someone on the other thread said Sullivan has checked into a mental hospital in Massachusetts. The man is certifiable. I believe he has AIDS-related dementia. Let's institute a policy of ignoring him from now on. You don't listen to crazy people who talk to themselves on the street do you? So, why do you write about what Andrew Sullivan says.

He's two-bricks-shy-of-a-load-elevator-doesn't-go-to-the-top-cobwebs-in-the-attic-foaming-frothing-Jack-Nicholson-style-barking-effing-MAD!

Clear?

[verner]

FA, I don't think that's been confirmed. It might be some moonbat troll trying to stir the pot.

Although, the way Sully has been raving lately, it certainly is plausible.

[Gregory Koster]

Dear Mr. Maguire: I'm a bit puzzled, Here's a bit of the diary excerpt you quote:

"June 26, 1943: The Witt case had blown up in a rather unpleasant way. [Home Secretary] Maxwell has written a letter intended for the S of S for War in which the Home Secretary expresses ..."

Trouble is, the Home Secretary on that date was Herbert Morrison (no not the Herbert Morrison who was the announcer at the HINDENBURG crash.) Perhaps the diarist meant that Maxwell was drafting a letter for his ultimate boss Morrison to sign to be sent to Grigg, the War Secretary.

I don't have access to this book, but if anyone does it might have something relevant to the discussion: THE SECOND WORLD WAR DIARIES OF HUGH DALTON. Dalton was head of the Special Operations Executive from 1940-42, the agency responsible for infiltrating the Third Reich. It likely would have some stuff about torture, on both sides.

[Fresh Air]

Verner--

It's confirmed enough for me by the way he's been writing for the past five years. It's a rumor that's just too good to check!

[Cecil Turner]

Trouble is, the Home Secretary on that date was Herbert Morrison . . .

Someone got carried away with the bracketed info. Checking the reference website, the bracket listing Maxwell as HS is not present. In other online references, Maxwell is cited as Morrison's "top official," from which I would presume he was number two at the HO.

Perhaps the diarist meant that Maxwell was drafting a letter for his ultimate boss Morrison to sign . . .

More likely (from the phrasing) it is a letter from Maxwell expressing the official HO position on the matter. At least in US government (esp. military) circles, that's a fairly common practice, addressed from the office, and signed by an official authorized to do so (usually with a "by direction" byline, implying he has been told to handle such).

[narciso]

Sullivan, has gone mad, what the source of it, I will not speculate, at first it was just simple leftwing posturing, but after Aug 29th, he became Perez Hilton, on one particular subject. Which seems to have become a proxy for derangement or delusion
(re; Buckley, Parker, Noonan,(kind of recovering)Frum, Brooks, et al. It's also become a proxy for who we think is
sensible, Steyn, O'Sullivan, Kudlow, Warren, Schaidle, and of course all you folks

[peter]

I am Trig Palin's father.

[Captain Hate]

After the Log Cabin Republicans invited McCain's skeezer daughter to address them, I'm viewing any gay "conservative" entity that gets the MSM's attention with a jaundiced eye.

[Danube of Thought]

If that woulda been Clarice, she'da dropped that guy like a hot rock.

Huzzay! A group of secured creditors are going to challenge Obama's Chrysler deal in the bankruptcy court. I am very, very interested to see how this one will play out. LUN

[Charlie (Colorado)]

From DoT's link:

"I've never seen the President of the United States personally thrust himself into a bankruptcy case. The executive branch is going to be present in the court and it will really put pressure on the court to demonstrate to the people of this country that it's watching what's going on in an independent and unbiased way."

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Huzzay?

[bad]

Wow, DoT. Thanks for the link to the secured creditor article. That group is ballsy.

I am praying for their safety and that of their families and businesses.

[jbarton]

I havent' seen this point made:

To the extent that any German prisoners were treated harshly, they were lawful combatants. Unlawful combatants were on occasion summarily shot.

[Jane]

Someone on the other thread said Sullivan has checked into a mental hospital in Massachusetts.

There really is only one - McLeans. It used to be where all the wealthy people sent their pot smoking sons. Now they do a lot of electric shock. Do you recall who said it because I'd like to hear more.

I've never seen the President of the United States personally thrust himself into a bankruptcy case.

Not only that but he is trying to influence the outcome of a case currently being tried in federal court. I think creditors are starting to wise up. I'm happy about that.

[lurking]

Chaco, see Alexander Pope 'An Essay on Man'. Huzzah is pronounced with a long a.

[lurking]

Well, in Pope it is. As with many exclamations, pronunciation and usage, yes, even spelling, may vary.

[ben]

Instapundit says Obama reads Sullivan...and that's where he came up with the WWII Britain did not torture commment.
We are truly in big trouble...

[lurking]

I think the lesson is clear; the defense of Britain required torture. Hence, so does the defense of America.

[Jane]

Instapundit says Obama reads Sullivan.

Sure, Mr Totus is always looking for imput from the "conservatives".

(Does Andrew still call himself that?)

[Porchlight]

Instapundit says Obama reads Sullivan

I find it hard to believe that Obama has the time to read blogs. But someone on his staff might very well be a Sully fan. Ugh.

[glasater]

I am praying for their safety and that of their families and businesses.

They'll need prayers after Zero slimes them.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

Why do we keep discussing a morally bankrupt, intellectually dishonest, pathetic figure like Andrew Sullivan.

I have to read Andrew Sullivan just to keep up with his writing because so many otherwise intelligent people read "The Daily Dish" as gospel.

Learning that POTUS reads the Dish is rather troubling, but it does help me put into perspective his incessant lying about wanting to own the auto makers, control the banks, and disown his own record breaking deficits.

[verner]

Jane, it was Austen Riggs. Ever hear of it?

I suspect some moonbat was trying to get it viral, and then blame JOM, cause google search doesn't come up with anything, and Joshua, the one time poster, never provided a link.

Sad thing is, considering Sullivan's erratic behavior and irrational writing, the rumor is entirely plausible.

[verner]

Also reported Gabriel, the owner of the Atlantic Group, Sullivan's boss, has frequent dinners at the Watergate where Rahm schmoozes with "elite" journos like Brooks, Dowd, and of course the stars of his own stable like Sully. So no surprise the hattip from BO.

I bet Sullivan was orgasmic.

Unfortunately, within 20 minutes, Sullivan's info was debunked, and the pres. looked a fool for quoting him.

[Jane]

Verner,

That would be a nice place to have a breakdown.

From their website - here is their approach:

Riggs’ unique treatment approach is centered around a therapeutic community based on the notion of examined living. The careful exploration of difficult life experiences has the best chance of success if patients are invited to share their strengths with each other and the staff in a serious partnership of mutual problem solving and social learning.

Gee, Andrew can share his relationship with POTUS as a strength I guess.

[glasater]

Karl Rove is tweeting this article on Chrysler.

[verner]

Yeah Jane, kind of one of those, might not be true, but damn, it should be!

Can't you see Sullivan in group!

[verner]

Just a thought Jane, for Sept 12, maybe we should all wear t-shirts that say "I AM TRIG'S MOMMIE"

[Jane]

Oh dear. Poor Trig. I'm not sure I am in with that Verner.

[sbw]

Re: Rove tweeting Tony Fratto: "The Obully Pulpit"

I said on JOM a day or so ago that "The Bully Pulpit" was the headline for the editorial.

[verner]

You're right Jane, rather tasteless come to think about it. But that's where Sully has dragged the discourse.

[lurking]

This bullying is really insidious and fascist. I'd like to find some of the leftists who used to argue that Bush's comfort with corporations was classically fascist. I'll bet they'd be speaking with the other half of their forked tongues, now.

Was it here or elsewhere that I saw someone commenting that it will become increasingly difficult for unionized companies to borrow money? This administration doesn't realize it in their shortsighted Chicago style bullying, but they are cutting off the unions noses to spite the bosses' faces. Foolish, foolish, foolish. But such is the nature of arrogance.

[JM Hanes]

DoT

Finally! I kept wondering when someone would step up to bat. I sure hope Lauria's folks don't end up settling with the administration, but the article only said they were "planning to object." I bet ObamaCo. really doesn't want this tested, especially when the lenders were smart enough to put this out there:

The group of lenders Lauria represents includes Oppenheimer Funds, Stairway Capital and other secured lenders who have their own group of investors, including teachers' credit unions, pension funds, retiree plans, college endowments, and retirement fund.

That's like a list lifted from an Obama presser.

I bet SCOTUS has been looking on and wondering how soon some of this would be heading their way. Maybe that's why Souter decided this would be a good time to jump ship.

[peter]

Excellent post, JMH. The Supremes have to be looking at the conversion of our economy to socialism and wondering whether this is Constitutional.

[BumperStickerist]

Jeebus -

There are official British documents - not press accounts, but gubmint documents - that describe the events.

Which include torturing of men and women(!) to include starvation, implied unnecessary surgery, cold cells, et cetera, et cetera.

And this took place both in London *and* in Germany ---- in luxury locations, one a neighborhood in London, the other a spa in Germany - converted for the specific purpose of torturing.

The Brits, they have class like that.

.

[EBJ]

Unless Jake Tapper challenges it Obama and Sullivan have re-written history. Assimilate or be isolated and, eventually, re-educated. With extreme prejudice.

I'm waiting for the movie version, where Churchill knocks the bucket of water out of W's hands and proceeds to tie up W and waterboard him (it's okay cause W is like Hitler and some such so it's not really torture or some such). And they'll say it's 'based on real events' because they do time travel in the TV show Lost and W's just evil enough to time travel to so he can torture without the Dems and other right thinkers distracting him. Because evil is more fun when the voices in your head are cheering you on and not so much fun when Nancy Pelosi is yelling in your ear "you're not doing it right, I mean, umm, it's wrong, and you're not doing it right in any case, and, ummm, it's wrong, but for crying out loud move out of the way so I can get the head at the right angle, this is oh so wrong but we might as well do it right".

[JM Hanes]

This piece of auto news, via Instapundit, helps warm the cockles too:

Ford, which posted a smaller than expected loss of $1.43 billion in the first quarter, is the only U.S. automaker not operating with emergency U.S. government loans. It expects to have gained U.S. retail market share for the sixth time in seven months in April despite the overall sales decline.

Can we say market based solutions? I think we can. If Ford can keep on keepin' on, it could make mincemeat of the Obama owned and operated Chrysler. Wish I bought a car more than once every 18 years, because I'd be headed out to the Ford dealer right now. Come to think of it, maybe this is a good time to get the truck I've been wanting for so long now.

Don't just buy American, buy Ford! That almost sounds like a Washington Tea Party sign, doesn't it? What Would the Founders Do? Drive Fords! When Would They Do It? Now!

[hit and run]

JMH:
Wish I bought a car more than once every 18 years, because I'd be headed out to the Ford dealer right now. Come to think of it, maybe this is a good time to get the truck I've been wanting for so long now.

HAH! mrs hit and run and I went to Wal*Mart today, then stopped for some lunch. Since most of our conversations center around the possibility of the job in Texas, as we were walking out of the restaurant, she saw a big Ford truck and exclaimed, "if we move back to Texas, I can get the big Ford truck I've always wanted!"

I didn't think of it at the time, but I should have retorted, "And be a true, patriotic American for doing so, too!"

[Annoying Old Guy]

verner;

Maybe instead of that you could have T-shirts with Dick Cheney in a Vader helmet saying "Trig - I am your father!"

[pagar]

Gateway Pundit does not seem to give Sullivan the exalted status some others give him.

Obama Relies On Far Left Crank For Churchill Quote... Gets Burned

[JM Hanes]

pagar:

It gets even better! Although it's hard to beat Far Left Crank. Gateway also reports:

"Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki: Captured Al Qaeda Leader Has Close Ties to Saddam Regime"

[Mister Snitch]

"the notion that "Churchill tortured" goes beyond the facts as they appear"

What he means is that "the notion that "Churchill tortured" is inconvenient for the case he wants to make. Which is, of course, the same old, same old case: Bush=Bad, AnyoneWhoAttacksBush=Good.

[Captain Ozone Layer]

I do believe Sully has penis breath.

[comatus]

Although you can't leave old Churchill completely out of it (he was around, after all), you could look past WWII and just admit that the Mau-Mau affair (Source: Obama), Amritsar, and the Boer War set new standards in, well, inhumane treatment, by the high-principled British. So, if the argument is that the US can do whatever Britain did, the science is settled.

The WWII military occupation of Ireland was undertaken by US forces, not British. Ireland refused to guarantee neutrality. Have we apologized for that yet?

[John D]

The problem with claiming that "torture doesn't work" is the fact that it has been practiced by everyone since the dawn of time.

Methods that don't work stop being used because they are ineffective.

That is, unless you can argue that every practitioner in all of histroy has been a sadistic monster. I'm sure some were, but all?

[PD]

Obama might like that. I seem to remember that in his speech in Germany he lamented the fact that we insular folks tend to know only English.

[PD]

Wow. An entire hunk of posting just disappear. Previous comment was to be preceded by:

"More heh; consider that if Britain hadn't tortured, then Obama would be addressing us in German."