Sunday Open Thread

Yet again.

[end of thread]

Comments

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Double bogey on 12 for Phil.

[jimmyk]

PaulL:
The captain's safety should not trump the interests of the United States. Jimmy Carter could have said what Obama said.

Charlie:
Okay, then the Navy shouldn't have even bothered with the whole operation: they should have just shot the boat out of the water. Screw Phillips, he's expendable.

Charlie, do you understand the meaning of the word "principal"? As in:

His safety has been our principal concern....

Do you understand that there is a wide range between "principal concern" and "of no concern whatsoever"? And that one can object to the former without implying the latter? I suspect you do, but just like to make up straw man arguments rather than confront what others are actually saying.

When Obama says "His safety has been our principal concern," he places the hostage's life above the need to put a stop to the piracy. Wouldn't it have been better to say "We are pleased that we were able to rescue Captain Phillips in the course of our actions take out the pirates. Let all pirates take note that we will pursue them and not hesitate to use deadly force." Or something like that.

[clarice]

Now I'm imaging the Reuters story about the destitute survivors of the dead pirates' families.

[bad]

Pirates are so misunderstood, Clarice. I'm sure they did everything with the best of intentions.

[jimmyk]

actions to take out the pirates.

[PD]

re: Javascript - yes, I have it enabled.

re: Copying text and reloading (or the variant of copying and going to previous page) - no effect.

Of course now I am watching the buttons after every single reload. I *have* observed enabled buttons exactly twice today. If I reload said page, they're once again disabled. Fascinating.

I've opened a ticket with TypePad. For now, I continue to post using my hacked page with the non-Javascript form.

[clarice]

Oh, yes, and eyewitness accounts about how they were honor students and dreaming of driving cabs in Minneapolis when they were working their way through school in pursuit of their dream to be neurological surgeons saving their fellow Somalis.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Peter, here's Rick Ballard:

It could just be reluctance to kill a relative. Zero knows where Brother Slum George and Brother Rapist Samson are but there are still 10 or 12 other by blows to locate. It's one thing to leave your brother living in the dirt and quite another to kill him.

Here's DoT:

It's painful to see this increasingly being painted as a demonstration of the helplessness of the US Navy. The helplessness is in one place, and one place only: the agonizing paralysis afflicting the president of the United States.

Here's you:

Beneficial crisis,sets the scene for,"Why do we pay all this money to a navy which is helpless".

Oh, and by the way, PUK, saying that they aren't going to do something really stupid isn't the same as saying they're incapable of coming up with, and doing, something smart. The whole question was "why don't they swim to the lifeboat, flashbang tthem, kill the pirates."

Me: "Because that would be stupidly dangerous and liable to get SEALs and hostage killed."

Counter argument: "No, Obama must be stopping them."

What do we know now?

(1) Obama didn't stop them, because
(2) The SEALs and the Navy did rescue him.
(3) they didn't do it by trying to attack a closed boat in the dark with a commando assault by SCUBA swimmers.

And the whole argument is now "oh, well, yeah, but they could have."

Maybe so. You find me a SEAL who will say, with a straight face, that that particular stupid plan would have worked, and wouldn't have been much more risky than a bunch of other plans, including the one that did work.

Man, I've still got friends in the Navy; they take risks as part of their business. But senseless kamikaze isn't part of the US military tradition. Even for SEALs.

[bad]

There you have it Clarice!! They were working their way through med school.

Pity more kids weren't as enterprising. Think of all those awful school loans that could be avoided...

[Elliott]

%#!##^$%$#%$%^

[PeterUK]

"I'm trying to imagine eyewitness testimony by the defensant's witnesses that the pirates weren't really shooting at the Capt when the navy responded by killing them."

Easy,They were protecting the captain from giant sea serpents when a group of piratephobic imperialist warmongers shot them.
Get the case tried near Berkeley.

[boris]

the one that did work

Wait for the hostage to free himself a 2nd time and be prepared to act to prevent his recapture.

Good plan.

Bet they had another one too.

[PD]

Doug Powers over at Malkin:

"Tense standoff ends: Obamas finally settle on a dog

Our long national nightmare is over."

[PeterUK]

"Beneficial crisis,sets the scene for,"Why do we pay all this money to a navy which is helpless"

You had an ironectomy Charlie?

[clarice]

PUK, I expect his lawyers will be engaging you soon as an expert witness for the defense.

[Rick Ballard]

"Now I'm imaging the Reuters story about the destitute survivors of the dead pirates' families."

S'okay - they still have two hundred hostages and twenty ships held for ransom. What is now needed is a good sociological study to identify the economic factors which must be the root cause of piracy. I suggest that many 100 person teams of progressives be sent to Somalia ASAP to begin such studies. Sending a few thousand community organizers as well certainly couldn't hurt.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

I'm waiting for the Jean Lafitte treatment from Reuters. Why not a new bio for old William Teach a/k/a Blackbeard. With this kind of Reutersthought, he could be a Robin Hood character, couldn't he?

[PaulL]

Clarice,

The things you are imagining will probably be thoroughly covered by Kerry in his piracy hearings.

[bad]

ben and I named two of the pirates "Steve" and "Barry."

I wonder if either of them is the survivor.

[clarice]

I'd fund that study--Of course, we need them to all sign a release to the effect that they realize they might be kidnapped and killed or something and they understand the risk and promise not to beg us on Somali tv to save them in such an eventuality.

[glenda]

Happy Easter to all!
Welcome home, Capt. Phillips!!!
Happy Birthday, Stephanie!

Elliot & Jane.. at least the Masters is exciting--I was sure it was going to be our Texas boy, Campbell, then our emigrant Texan, Phil, but now...who knows???

Clarice..looked for jerks at NYT and WP to pick up your article and I see we get, full-throat BDS! Fairness or excuses? Which will lead to justice? If we have to ask...right?

[PeterUK]

"Oh, and by the way, PUK, saying that they aren't going to do something really stupid isn't the same as saying they're incapable of coming up with, and doing, something smart. The whole question was "why don't they swim to the lifeboat, flashbang tthem, kill the pirates."

Well it wasn't mine so kindly go and screw yourself.

[clarice]

Rick, Let's call that the Rachel Corey Somali study.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Oh, Christ. now some idiot Brit -- Andrew Greg from Reuter -- is asking why the Captain of the Bainbridge thought Phillips' life was in danger.

Yes, they took the pirate aboard the Bainbridge with a Zodiac.

The NPR weenie is wondering how this happened when negotiations were still going on.

SEALs were involved.

Why wasn't the Navy protecting the Maersk ship? (Answer: Big ocean, little boats. Nearest ship was 300 nm away.)

(Sounds like convoys might be necessary.)

Navy had standing authority to act if Phillips seemed in immediate danger. They thought he was. Commander on scene ordered fire.

[JM Hanes]

Clarice:

That blame shifting WaPo story you posted was a real piece of work, starting with the headline "Shortfalls Unraveled Stevens's Conviction: Observers Cite Prosecutors' Lack of Time, Other Reasons." Make that any reason other than prosecutorial misconduct [emphasis mine, throughout]:

Last year's compressed trial timeline forced government lawyers to jam their preparations into seven weeks and intensified a series of challenges: the late addition of a new lawyer; an aggressive adversary who deluged them with requests for documents; and a skeptical judge whose behavior turned unpredictable, then punitive.

Eleven paragraphs later, we find out that:

The Stevens case had been handled for years by Joseph W. Bottini and James A. Goeke, two career lawyers from the U.S. attorney's office in Alaska, and two attorneys from the Public Integrity unit, Nicholas A. Marsh and Edward P. Sullivan...

...and that "Federal prosecutors in the District" had been "thinking" that "the charges were shaky" -- since 2006.

Johnson mentions the Brown case being thrown out and reinstated, but never tells us that he was acquited. How could "career lawyers" be expected to understand "their obligations to hand over materials to criminal defendants" when their unit "lacked clear rules on the question"? It's the no-controlling-legal-authority defense run seriously amok!

Poor things. It seems that rich defendants' expensive lawyers "seize the stage" and "cast aspersions"" on the prosecutors and "pick apart" their cases. Unconscionable! It's hardly surprising that the Stevens' prosecution "misplaced a piece of evidence" when they were faced with processing the mountains of boxes which somehow piled up on their doorstep,, not to mention all that "evidence 4,000 miles away in Alaska." Who can blame this former "A Team" if they "merely succumbed to lapses of incompetence, inexperience or lax supervision"? I can't see any lapses on that score, myself.

Yes, mistakes were made, but it's not like the prosecution brought any of it on themselves, is it? In fact, you'd never even know that the prosecution team was replaced. According to Ms. Johnson, these hapless errors were just discovered by a "new Justice Department team examining the case." Holder just "abandonned" the prosecution because of "inconsistencies" in Allen's testimony.

The most glaring omission of all, of course, is that you'd never know this spurious trial cost Republicans a pivotal seat in the Senate, and with it, any substantive voice in a Democratic Congress. Apparently, they're in no position to complain, because, yes, it's all Bush's fault:

The Justice Department, already laboring under well-documented episodes of political interference during the Bush years, is now facing intense scrutiny over whether it flouted the rules in one of the highest-profile cases of the past decade.

Who can fault them for a little "flouting" in the pursuit of public integrity? For those of you who are keeping track, flouting is the NewCool term for criminal malfeasance.

[bad]

JMH, I was gonna say that.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Me:
'Oh, and by the way, PUK, saying that they aren't going to do something really stupid isn't the same as saying they're incapable of coming up with, and doing, something smart. The whole question was "why don't they swim to the lifeboat, flashbang tthem, kill the pirates."'

PUK:
"Well it wasn't mine so kindly go and screw yourself."

PUK:
"You were the one saying it couldn't be done."

Memory getting a little tenuous, I guess. Perhaps the recommended autocopulatory activity would help you more than me.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

The pirates were 25 meters away when the snipers fired.

CNN is asking if this is going to make the pirates escalate the violence of their attacks. Navy answer is "yes, it might. Duh."

NBC question "why isn't the guy being turned over to the Kenyan justice system?" The NBC chick is worried about what they're gonna do with the bodies, too.

Sounds like Phillips wasn't in the water after all.

[bad]

IRONY

In countries where a woman has a virtually unfettered right to choose abortion, the result is that women overwhelmingly choose to abort female fetuses.

LUN

[Charlie (Colorado)]

In countries where a woman has a virtually unfettered right to choose abortion, the result is that women overwhelmingly choose to abort female fetuses.

Sisterhood is powerful.

[Rick Ballard]

JMH,

A comparison with Cold Cash is helpful. The FBI had him taking a cash bribe on videotape in May 2005. The DoJ really moves like lightning when there's a dirty Dem involved.

[PeterUK]

Charlie,
If you cannot differentitiate between me not saying anything about ""why don't they swim to the lifeboat, flashbang tthem, kill the pirates." and you pooh poohing any speculation about a rescue,then it is your faculties which are in question.
You might remember that this is a comment board,comment is free,it doesn't need a School Marm.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Fox News moron thinks 25 meters is a "long range" sniper shot.

[clarice]

JMH:"The Justice Department, already laboring under well-documented episodes of political interference during the Bush years, is now facing intense scrutiny over whether it flouted the rules in one of the highest-profile cases of the past decade." is my favorite in that piece. Do me a favor if you've time, go over to the comment section and let them know what you think. I especially asked them exactly what episodes they were referring to and whether or not the fact that the front page of the WaPo was made available to every dissenter in the DoJ including those who wanted to spill top secret information isn't partically responsible for the Dept being completely out of control today.

Of course, one wonders what with speedy trial rules and all why the Dept wasn't prepared to go to trial at the moment they indicted or why it didn't seek an extension if the burden of complying with the defense requests (with a too small staff) made trial preparation impossile..And of course, if it was too hard to get all those documents from Alaska why did they successfully oppose Srevens' perfectly reasonable request to try the case there, instead of in DC so far from the evidence and witnesses?

Only the after event stories about the Somali incident will be more ridiculous to read, I'm sure.

[matt]

One thing the SEALs do constantly is train for hostage situations. marksmanship, camouflage, misdirection, etc are all part of the package. If they had felt like it, they have very cool underwater scooters and rebreathers that leave no bubbles that would get them to their destination undetected. Their sensor technology is amazing, so centerpunching someone at short range is usually a very high probability kill. No shot otherwise.

This sounds much more straightforward. The prisoner goes over the side and out of the line of fire and the boat becomes a free fire zone. Somalis on deck waving AK's, and it's like clubbing baby seals.

The president gave his okay, and I'm pretty sure it was the captain of the Bainbridge's call all the way. The lifeboat was out of gas and closing in on shore, and the mooks were exhausted, so the timing had to be right.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Peter, it was you saying I was poopooing any possibility of rescue. You don't have any reason to think that, because I didn't say it.

You might remember that this is a comment board,comment is free,it doesn't need a School Marm.

Good. Then I'll continue to point out when people are being idiots.

[Jane]

My goodness you guys should be watching this.

What about 15? What about 16? Holy cow!

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Aha, here's the actual lifeboat type.

[Jane]

MY TIGER!!!!!

[JM Hanes]

Clarice:

I'm supposed to be outside spreading the grass seed that should have been sprouting last month, but I was thinking of sending a complaint to the WaPo's public editor. It's rare that deliberate bias can be so easily deconstructed all in the course of a single story.

[clarice]

AP:"Jamac Habeb, a 30-year-old pirate, said that the killing of the three pirates was "a painful experience."

"This is unfortunate action and our friends should have done more to kill the captain before they were killed. This will be a good lesson for us," Habeb told the AP from one of Somalia's piracy hubs, Eyl.

Residents of Harardhere, another port and pirate stronghold, were gathering in the streets after news of the captain's release, saying they fear pirates may now retaliate against some of the 200 hostages they still hold.

"We fear more that any revenge taken by the pirates against foreign nationals could bring more attacks from the foreign navies, perhaps on our villages," Abdullahi Haji Jama, who owns a clothes store in Harardhere, told the AP by telephone. "

More chaff for the talking heads to blather about.

[jimmyk]

Peter, it was you saying I was poopooing any possibility of rescue.

No, he said you were poohpoohing any speculation of rescue, meaning the specific speculations that were being made here. Which you were. You offered no speculation of your own, you just ridiculed everyone else's. And then when there was a rescue, you patted yourself on the back just because it was different from what people here had been proposing or advocating. Big deal.

[clarice]

I wish you would, jmh. I'm --ahem--already known to the public editor, I'm afraid.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

>i>"We fear more that any revenge taken by the pirates against foreign nationals could bring more attacks from the foreign navies, perhaps on our villages," Abdullahi Haji Jama, who owns a clothes store in Harardhere, told the AP by telephone. "

I certainly hope so.

[PeterUK]

"Fox News moron thinks 25 meters is a "long range" sniper shot."

But not bad from two moving vessels with all that current and wid you were talking about.

[JM Hanes]

"Then I'll continue to point out when people are being idiots."

LOL! How's that working out for you so far?

[bad]

Captain Phillips says Navy SEALS are heros and he is just a byline.

[boris]

C "The whole question was ... "
P "Well it wasn't mine ..."

continue to point out when people are being idiots

There does not seem to be any evidence that P accused C of denying any possibility of rescue. P's comment could more plausibly refer to C claiming the flashbang strategery was the "it" that couldn't be done.

[bad]

Screw the pirates!! But I imagine the one who goes to prison will learn all about that.

[bad]

Do you suppose the Obamas are running into problems finding a church due to his extreme abortion stance?

[PaulL]

Excellent work, JM Hanes.

[clarice]

JMH--Talk Left had another example from trial of the sort of folks were handling the case and their ethical shortcomings:
[quote]The latest episode involved the government’s assertion in the indictment and its opening statement that Mr. Allen’s company had provided some $188,000 in free labor costs to renovate the house. To bolster that assertion, prosecutors presented time sheets from workers at Mr. Allen’s company, Veco, for work done on the Stevens home. One of the workers, David Anderson, listed 280 hours of work on the renovation project for October 2000. But grand jury transcripts — given to defense lawyers recently because of a ruling by Judge Sullivan — showed that Mr. Anderson was not even in Alaska from late September through early November.
The judge asked a simple question:

“The government knew those records were not truthful records. All along the government knew that was a lie,” Judge Sullivan said angrily to Nicholas Marsh, a prosecutor. “Why did you do it? I want an answer.”
The response:

Facing the withering verbal flogging, Mr. Marsh answered, “We didn’t see the case that way,” and argued that the information about Mr. Anderson’s absence from Alaska was not material.
That didn't sit well with the judge.

“We’re talking about the U.S. government using documents it knows are false,” Judge Sullivan responded. “You have an obligation to see this man gets a fair trial.”[/quote]

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/10/9/141533/756

Lying sons of bitches..Not material that the guy whose work sheet showed 280 hours wasn't even in the state then and couldn't have performed ANY work for Stevens then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Yeah yeah, sure sure, Peter. Saying that a stupid scheme wouldn't work means nothing could work, and saying that acting precipitously was unwise means no action at all could possibly be wise.

You're absolutely right that I didn't offer any plans of my own. Why? Because I figure that the Navy knows better than me. That doesn't mean I can't tell a fairy story when I hear one.

In the mean time, the Navy didn't act precipitously, did get them into a much more workable position -- 25 meters away, and according to the Navy just now, with the lifeboat actually under tow by the Bainbridge and with one pirate on a US ship --did get the job done with only bad guys getting killed, and didn't risk any SEAL's lives unnecessarily.

Am I the only person here who remembers that even a Navy SEAL's family deserves not to have their SEALs life thrown away? Or that the US military sees its job as protecting the lives of American citizens?

And you guys are pissed off at Obama because he didn't order something precipitous and pissed off at me because I identified the flaws in your stupid scheme.

[Rick Ballard]

"Let's call that the Rachel Corey Somali study."

I'm sure St. Pancake would appreciate the gesture. The progressives and community organizers could start with a simple "We're sorry for President Obama's ruthless use of violence in interfering with a major component of the Somali economy." Then they could fan out across Somalia carrying "Not In Our Name Placards" with pictures of the dead Somali entrepreneurs and the families left destitute by President Obama's act of premeditated wanton violence.

Perhaps they could visit the two hundred tourists who have chosen to peacefully await the arrival of the true international justice which is sure to liberate their hosts from the unreasonable compulsion which forces them to provide food and lodging for strangers?

[PaulL]

Yeah, Charlie, it's just you and Obama against us crazies at JOM.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

But not bad from two moving vessels with all that current and wid you were talking about.

Oh God no. I wouldn't have wanted to have to do it, and I was once on the All-State rifle team.

Shortly after that, Rick Rosenthal, who spent times with sniper teams in Iraq, corrected Greg Jarret on that point too.

[sbw]

Charlie: Now think about trying to do it swimming.

I'd use a rebreather so there would be no bubbles. I'd be 20-30 feet under the surface so the swell would be no problem. Darkness would be an advantage because I'd be hidden but the pirate's lifeboat would be bathed in light and a path easily discernible to it. And even beginning divers practice swimming a compass line for several hundred yards.

Again, I'm glad no one had to do it.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

LOL! How's that working out for you so far?

Pretty good, honestly. But then it has been a target-rich environment recently.

[bad]

I think it's time for my meds. Any body wanna join me?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Do you suppose the Obamas are running into problems finding a church due to his extreme abortion stance?

Nah, they could always be Episcopalians.

[PeterUK]

"And you guys are pissed off at Obama because he didn't order something precipitous and pissed off at me because I identified the flaws in your stupid scheme."

Neither Charlie,you had no more idea than anyone else,nobod knew how this was going to work out.Like all such operations,they were also lucky,fortunately.If anything pisses me of it your overweaning arrogance.
But hey,lets forget about the SEALs,the sniper shots.Weren't going to happen.

[bad]

Nah, they could always be Episcopalians.

Previously, he indicated they would be joining a black church.

[bad]

WaPo:

The Obama family today attended an Easter Service at St. John's Episcopal Church..

Ahhh LUN

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I'd use a rebreather so there would be no bubbles. I'd be 20-30 feet under the surface so the swell would be no problem. Darkness would be an advantage because I'd be hidden but the pirate's lifeboat would be bathed in light and a path easily discernible to it. And even beginning divers practice swimming a compass line for several hundred yards.

Very good, SBW. Now remember that the lifeboat is drifting with the 10 knot wind, and that even 30 feet down there are still currents, and that, as you correctly point out, those currents aren't the same as on the surface. And you're swimming on a compass bearing with no visual reference to correct your drift. and you have to hit something that's 28 feet long by 10 feet wide.

[PeterUK]

sbw,
Take a look at the exploits of the Italian Decima Flottiglia MAS in WWII. I sure things will have been learned from them.

[sbw]

Now remember...

I'd bet on it. You don't have to. That's the advantage of armchair Monday-morning quarterbacking.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

overweaning arrogance

It's only overweening arrogance if you're wrong. And that's spelled with two "E"'s.

So there.

[PeterUK]

"It's only overweening arrogance if you're wrong. And that's spelled with two "E"'s.

So there."

Frankly my Dear ,I don't give a damn!

[PeterUK]

But since this is Educating Rita,it can be spelled either way.So half right Charlie.

[sbw]

That's educating "Reeta".

[clarice]

Yes, bad the problem re the church is a political one. I never thought O was a Moslem. He seems to me to be an atheist who joined Wright's church for political reasons. Now that he's president will he lose black support if he attends a white church or one of a more conventional point of view or will he lose white support of he
attends a black church--and which one? Today he picked the church across the street from the White House which most presidents have attended.
If yu recall Reagean hardly ever went to church but then he never pretended to have been motivated by any particular minister.

[PeterUK]

"That's educating "Reeta".

Alreeta.

[clarice]

overweaning??--this breast feeding cult is getting out of hand..

[Thomas Collins]

Come on, middle age guy. Tiger and Mick came up short, so don't let this Chad Campbell dude upend you. Do it for all us middle agers!

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I'd bet on it

how much?

Is it possible that in some extremely important situation, such a prodigious feat might be accomplished?

Maybe.

It would impress me no end.

Should something go wrong, you have a a guy swimming toward Africa (if you're lucky; pick another direction and you're swimming toward India.) Now you've got two rescues, not one.

But in the mean time, in the real world, the real Navy managed to get the desired outcome without it.

And you think I'm disrespecting SEALs by thinking they're smart enough not to try a trick like that when they had the situation under control.

... DoD says they took the three pirates with three simultaneous head shots.

[clarice]

Wow! Three for three..

Rick, Great ideas re St Pancake's.

[Thomas Collins]

Uh-oh. This Chad Campbell is not in El Foldero mode. Nice drive to the green on the par 3, Chad. Good follow-up to your nifty birdie. But the middle age guy is going to rule today!

I hope.

I'm not ignoring you, Angel. I wish you a nice paycheck and publicity for a second or third place finish.

[Jane]

don't let this Chad Campbell dude upend you

They are best friends.

I don't think I can bear sudden death!

[bad]

It's pretty obvious he worships himself. I read articles of the burden it places on a church and the pastor when the president attends, but other articles say many churches are eager for the Obama's membership. So I don't think that excuse will fly.

Additionally, he has young children whom many believe should be in church. Pressure, pressure!!

[Soylent Red]

Yay Navy! And you won't hear that from me very often.

WRT Episcopalians...it really doesn't matter what church Obama belongs to. Obama belongs to a church for the purposes of checking a box on his self-made political identity checklist. He only went to TUCC to burnish his street cred.

I mean really, when you have a guy who thinks sin is "not living up to my expectations for myself", it's not like he's really all that interested in a particular doctrine (unless they are going to call him on his abortion stance). If no one would have been ready to call him on it, Obama would have slept in this morning. Bank on it.

WRT my case of ODS...when Obama shows himself to be anything other than a feckless weenie, calculating political hack, or ponderous egomaniac, I will feel safe in not assigning the worst construction to his every move.

He never proved himself to me during the election, so I guess my mistrust of him could have been prevented by doing things like releasing birth records, school records, information regarding his "professorship", information regarding his tenure at Woods Foundation, etc.

Or maybe I just have ODS because he has based his entire life on trying to live up to his conception of his (possible) daddy's moral and political benchmarks, which have included forays into socialism and black nationalism. So forgive me for believing that those beliefs might have some bearing on how he instinctively views dirt poor Africans, in any context.

[Jane]

Look at that shot on the 16th! WOW

[Thomas Collins]

Best leader's shot off the tee at the par three 16th at Augusta in the final round that I remember.

[sbw]

I'm curious ChaCo, are you a scuba diver? I am.

[bad]

a guy who thinks sin is "not living up to my expectations for myself"

I don't forget that line either. Glad I'm not alone..

[Soylent Red]

BTW...

I would like to stomp on Shingo's cowboy hat. I've been thinking about that all day. It offends my highly tuned sense of golf outfit propriety.

And not because I'm racist.

[bad]

Obama said the dog was going to be a "mutt like me" and it ends up being something purchased by Ted Kennedy.

Well!

[Rick Ballard]

SR,

I suppose we could call a garbage dump a landfill for a bit. That wouldn't mean it's not a garbage dump and it won't change the stink though. I'm just not sure why in the world anyone would bother.

Trash is trash.

[Jane]

That Shingo looks like a Japanese terrorist.

[bad]

Is a senator allowed to give a president a gift worth thousands of dollar?

[bad]

FOX says the SEALs were parachuted in during the last 36 hours.

[bad]

I ♥ SEALs!!

[Soylent Red]

That Shingo looks like a Japanese terrorist.

I believe you're right Jane. I could have sworn I saw I Navy SEAL down in that water hazard, drawing a bead on the hated cowboy hat.

I could be wrong though. I'm positive someone will let me know.

Man, if there's anything I hate more that Illinois Nazis, it's Japanese golfing cowboys.

[clarice]

you love anything in a wet suit, admit it, bad.

[bad]

In or out, Clarice. I see no reason to discriminate.

[Thomas Collins]

Looks as if it could be a three way playoff.

Did I just hear that they do the playoff today? No full round tomorrow? Civilization really is going to hell in a handbasket. The Masters decided by sudden death? Next thing you know, they'll just have a pitch and putt contest!

[JM Hanes]

Charlie:

You've mentioned that you know guys in the Navy, but you didn't mention knowing any SEALs, so instead of trying to assess all the various obstacles you're imagining, I decided to check out the SEALs official website. I, myself, imagine they might have to allow for currents etc. to do underwater demolitions or work out of submarines, or in submersibles, but more to your central point last night, it turns out that a candidate has to be able to swim 500 yards in 12.5 minutes just to qualify for the SEALs.

And here's Phase II of basic training:

Diving Phase trains, develops, and qualifies SEAL candidates as competent basic combat swimmers.  This phase is eight weeks long. During this period, physical training continues and becomes even more intensive.  Second Phase concentrates on combat SCUBA.  You will learn two types of SCUBA: open circuit (compressed air) and closed circuit (100% oxygen).  Emphasis is placed on long distance underwater dives with the goal of training students to become basic combat divers, using swimming and diving techniques as a means of transportation from their launch point to their combat objective.  This is a skill that separates SEALs from all other Special Operations forces.

Now I didn't have any skin in this game, but I'd suggest you don't know what plans were in the works any more than anyone else here did, or whether the Navy would have tried a more dangerous option, if Captain Philips hadn't fortuitously jumped ship a second time. It's not like you predicted this particular 25 yard outcome yourself, so the idea that everyone but you is an idiot seems a little over the top. While you can speculate about the wisdom of taking other approaches, it certainly looks like the SEALs could have mounted the operation in question had they been given a green light to do so. That sure looked like the primary bone of contention between you and DOT last night.

[Soylent Red]

Nuts! Bogey!

[Jane]

I really was rooting for Perry. In fact I still am.

[Elliott]

The last player to finish 2-5-5 and end up in a playoff managed to win.

[Thomas Collins]

Whoops! For thirty years, the Masters has had sudden death. Where have I been?

Next thing you know, sets in major tennis tournaments will be decided by 7-6 scores! :-))