The Sound Of One Hand Clapping Transparently

We may all find out what happens when an irresistible force confronts an immovable object.  Over on the left, with their appetite whetted by the disclosure of the OLC 'torture' memos, Bush critics want a deeper investigation into what they believe are war crimes.

On the right, Bush supporters are making the very valid point that the partial release of the relevant memos represents a blatant politicization of intelligence.  Where are the memos evaluating the effectiveness of the enhanced interrogation program?  We know what we did but at this point, we don't know how effective it was.  Marc Thiessen, writing in the WaPo, argues that a careful reader of the released material can find plenty of hints that the program worked, but most of the relevant material has been withheld.  And as others have wondered, if this material made it clear that the enhanced interrogation program was a failure, would Team Obama have withheld it?  Incredibly, the trust is lacking.

If both sides want more, the betting has to be that we will get more.  Eric Posner handicapped the prospects for a war crimes prosecution last January and concluded it would not be politically astute for Obama's DoJ  to bring a case he would probably lose:

The jury will believe all these people and it will refuse to convict or, at best, it will hang, prolonging everyone’s agony. It might refuse to convict because it doesn’t believe that anyone has the requisite mens rea; because it doesn’t understand the law; or because (most likely) it just doesn’t believe that people should go to jail when they are trying to protect the nation and the law in question is confusing or ambiguous.

Right now Obama is living in the best of all worlds - he has judged that crimes have occurred without fully disclosing the evidence, thereby securing and buffing his halo without having to complete the case.  It's cheap grace - "I'm opposed to torture".  Congratulations, as are we all.  Of course, I am also opposed to innocent Americans being killed while working in office towers or flying in airplanes.

I want to hear Obama explain that he is opposed to enhanced interrogation techniques that have been proven effective and have saved American lives.  I want him to explain the trade-off he is making on our behalf.  I want him to explain that, although more than 25,000 US servicemen have been waterboarded and "walled" at SERE school, it shocks the conscience that three uncooperative high value prisoners were subjected to the same treatment.  Have we really tortured that many of our own citizens, or is waterboarding in a gray area somewhere less than torture?  By way of comparison, how many US soldiers were subjected to cattle prods to the genitals at SERE school?  How many had their limbs deliberately broken and removed?

Obama is a great communicator and very popular so this should be easy for him.  Let's start by having a release of the relevant facts.

MORE:  The BBC has a helpful summary of practices banned by the Army Field Manual, including waterboarding and, hmm, placing hoods over a detainee.  That is torture, too?  On that other hand, the Field Manual also proscribes "Applying beatings, electric shock, burns or other forms of physical pain", which sure sound like torture to me.

This comparison of the Bybee "Techniques" memo to the underlying research is troubling but helpful.

Comments

[Don]

The release of the relevant facts always make you look stupid.

Expect more of the same.

[Cecil Turner]

That's funny. I thought the last release vindicated those who claimed, essentially: "looks a lot like SERE School." Though I must admit I was a bit surprised it would be because, well, that's exactly what it was. And I think those lefties who insist this "proves the CIA tortured" ought to have an answer for TM's question above. (Or at the very least, they ought to start clamoring for the end of the ongoing torture of US Servicemen.)

But by all means, let's not stop now. If the lefties can have all the Top Secret legal memos declassified, I see no reason to hide what the terrorists told 'em. (Presumably they already know.) That way the American people can get a pretty good idea what we won't be learning under our new leadership . . . and we can all decide whether we like the change.

[Don]

Well we know they never told us where the fuck Bin Laden was.

[centralcal]

Obama "open" to prosecution of officials who cleared interrogation tactics.

Oh, I bet he is open to it alright.

[Don]

Incidentally Maguire, why do you still have a default belief that anything Cheney says is true? The guy's a liar plain and simple.

Did he have a memo written for him praising his new torture regime? I'm sure.

Meanwhile the fact that the CIA destroyed the tapes should tell you all you need to know.

[Dave C.]

Prez O is doing the country a service by letting the conversation about the merits of torture take place. This is better than letting the questions linger. It allows both the proponents of "enhanced interrogation" and opponents of torture to have their say, for posterity's sake. Also, the fact that Obama is "managing the transparency" in a politically expedient way is only objectionable if you're not aligned with him. Forcing a skunk like Cheney to come out of his hole and demand MORE transparency (in order to defend his position) is political genius!

[verner]

YEAH BABY!!!!! CLAPCLAPCLAP

Best thing EVER published in the WApO

[PD]

Also, the fact that Obama is "managing the transparency" in a politically expedient way is only objectionable if you're not aligned with him.

If you're "managing" transparency, it proves you're not being transparent.

[Ranger]

Well we know they never told us where the fuck Bin Laden was.

Posted by: Don | April 21, 2009 at 01:01 PM

Yeah, because that is the only valuable information an Al Qaeda operative might have right?

[Cecil Turner]

Meanwhile the fact that the CIA destroyed the tapes should tell you all you need to know.

What? That CIA plays CYA? That supposed to be a surprise? And their reception of Obama, right after he released the subject memos over CIA objections, tells me all I need to know. (As if the Plame affair hadn't made it abundantly clear.)

[MayBee]

We'll see if some Cheney-hater in the CIA leaks documents to prove him wrong. Eh?

[Don]

And what did Bush's refusal to pardon Libby tell you?

[verner]

I read your torture.org link TM.

All in all, thin gruel. It sounded like butt covering from a few guvmnet psychologists to me.

14,000 participants. 4% had an adverse psychological effect in SERE, but the docs were able to work with them, and get them back in the program. Only .2 percent left.

And the hormone level stuff is precious. SERE is meant to induce stress, causing decreased levels of some types of hormones--duh.

Bottom line. The CIA waterboarded 3 know psychopathic mass murders and kept them from turning LA into a smouldering, death filled hole like they did to NYC on 911. The IRC interviewed them, and didn't find them beating their heads against the cell walls--no permanant damage noted.

[MayBee]

Um....that he didn't pardon people for political reasons?

Say what you will about Bush, he was a very principled pardoner (to the left's great disappointment).

[Jane]

Fr Peter and I talked about torture on the air today. He is opposed. So I asked him what he would do if someone came in and tried to take his parishioners prisoner. He said he hoped that he would be up to doing everything it takes to save his peeps.

And then we had a really interesting conversation about the courage it takes to actually face the enemy rather than rolling over and taking it.

It was very interesting, particularly given his first statement about opposing torture.

[Ignatz]

-Also, the fact that Obama is "managing the transparency" in a politically expedient way is only objectionable if you're not aligned with him.-

Ah, yet another one of those unintentional reminders of the unbridgable gulf between the left and American virtues and morality.

[clarice]

What did the prosecution of Libby tell you, Don? It told me that the Administration's enemies captured the DoJ and used it to cripple the Administration and destroy a man who'd committed no crime--- and if they could do that to him, they could do it to anybody.

[Don]

Good one MayBee!

The right answer is Cheney is a lying sack of human waste and a profoundly degenerate and morally flawed man.

But thanks for playing!

[Ranger]

Hey Don, why so angry?

Your side won the election.

Your side is exploding spending and Barry is out telling everyone who will listen that he is sorry for GWB's presidency.

So, why are you still so angry at the world?

[Cecil Turner]

And SERE school is torture. Or . . . maybe the lefties are just full of it.

[MayBee]

Don- Why do I think that is the answer to every question you ask?

Q:What time is it?
A: It's time to admit that Cheney is a lying sack of human waste blah blah blah.

[Don]

"And then we had a really interesting conversation about the courage it takes to actually face the enemy rather than rolling over and taking it."

You're so right Jane!!!

I always thought that "turn the other cheek" stuff was for wussies. Good to know not enough priests buy that crap anymore.

[Don]

Ranger-my side won the election. Sure did! I give your side most of the credit however.

Unlike your side, however, I'm determined to hold my president's feet to the fire so he doesn't end so universally despised that some incompetent bumbler from your side can take over the White House.

[clarice]

Tell you what, Don, if it's your life at stake, I'll counsel "turn the other cheek", but I want to make it clear, if it's mine, I want them to break the S.o.b. and make him talk.

[PD]

I'm determined to hold my president's feet to the fire

Okay, I'll play. For what do you think Obama deserves criticism? Not being liberal enough?

[MayBee]

Good, Don. Hold his feet to the fire.
Let's go back to the days when we were so beloved before KSM was water boarded.

[verner]

"Ah, yet another one of those unintentional reminders of the unbridgable gulf between the left and American virtues and morality."

You forgot to add that only somebody with an IQ of 85 could say something that dumb and think he was being smart.

[PD]

Don, I might choose "turn the other cheek" as a matter of personal conduct. I don't want my President choosing it for me as a matter of civic policy.

[Rocco]

You're side stood with our enemy. You're all traitors as far as I'm concerned!

[Sue]

"Unlike your side, however, I'm determined to hold my president's feet to the fire ...."

I'm holding my sides with laughter.

"so he doesn't end so universally despised that some incompetent bumbler from your side can take over the White House"

You mean like Clinton? Oh, I bet you meant Carter.

[Jane]

Hey! Where is HIt?

And what's with the italics AGAIN?

[Ranger]

Don,

I'm confused by your explanation. By my understanding, the Republicans are the ones who hold their politicians to account. A large number of Republicans refused to vote for Republican candidates in 2006 because they spent to much. That seems to me the definision of holding their feet to the fire.

BTW, Obama promised "net spending cuts" when he ran for president. Do you plan to hold his feet to the fire on that too?

[Sue]

"Do you plan to hold his feet to the fire on that too?"

Well sure. He'll just make sure he votes for him again so that someone from our side doesn't win the election. Unlike republicans who let this catastrophe into the WH to show republicans what happens when they forget they are republicans.

[sbw]

I'm determined to hold my president's feet to the fire so he doesn't end so universally despised

Too late.

Besides, that would be torture.

[Sue]

The only people who think Obama is doing what he said he would do as president are those that paid attention during the primaries. He is doing exactly what he said he would do prior to the general when he lied to the American public in order to get elected. I hope they paid attention for next time.

[MayBee]

It seems like Gibbs is going way too far into detail about what "might" happen in an investigation to go back.

[Captain Hate]

Also, the fact that Obama is "managing the transparency" in a politically expedient way is only objectionable if you're not aligned with him.-

It's a sign of how stupid Don is, even by troll standards, that he sticks around after typing this absolute nonsense. If he had any sense of shame he'd return to whatever hive of lunacy vomited this verbal chunk.

[verner]

Hey Don! We still have troops in Iraq and OBAMA has continued the ILLEGAL wiretapping!!!!

Hurry, get you're old "Bush as CHIMP" signs, and stick Obama's face on there--recycling and all that.

Come on boy, march march march on WASHINGTON.

STOP THE ILLEGAL WAR. AFGHANISTAN BODY COUNT!!!! FREE MUMIA!!!!NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!!FASCIST PIGS!!!!FREE TIBET!!! NO MONEY FOR THE EVIL IMF!!!NO MORE NUKES!!!DON'T WIRETAP ME BRO!!!!!!!!

Pete Seger songs! Big puppets with skull heads!! The smell of tear gas in the morning... Think of all the fun you're missing

[bad]

I think you're right, Maybee.

[Carolynp]

You know Don, if you're right, why not release the information? I mean, we're all uber-transparent now, right? What possible reasoning could be used to justify not releasing that information? The only possible reason is that Obama realizes it will make him look badly. Sounds to me like he's the real "degenerate and morally flawed man" in this picture. I applaud Cheney's refusal to just let this go. Let's get a real picture of what we were dealing with and then we'll a bit more of the boogeyman you keep presenting to us.

[bad]

OTOH, Gibbs is holding the cameras and we are hearing nothing of Geithner in the hearings.

[Jane]

I'm determined to hold my president's feet to the fire so he doesn't end so universally despised

Yeah, that's the criteria I'd choose. WHo cares if we are safe, or prosperous or free? It's really all about being liked.

[clarice]

Jane, I'm worried about Hit , too. He hasn't been around for several days.

[daddy]

Can anyone give me Jesus's quote about if a man has 2 cloaks, trade 1 of them in for a sword?

[daddy]

Would holding someone's feet to the fire be considered torture?

[Porchlight]

Hit is missing and I don't think we've seen bgates in awhile. Maybe they are locked out?

[cathyf]

Fr Peter and I talked about torture on the air today. He is opposed. So I asked him what he would do if someone came in and tried to take his parishioners prisoner. He said he hoped that he would be up to doing everything it takes to save his peeps.

Jane, I think that you succumbed to the essential changing of the subject here. (I'm not just picking on you -- you just had the most conveniently available quote to ping off of.) There are two totally separate questions here -- whether or not you are willing to torture in any hypothetical situation and what those situations are is for sure an interesting and valuable discussion. But what you are hiding by wandering off (being led off) into that digression is the core fact that was revealed by the memos: our intelligence agents managed, through cleverness and determination and extensive experimentation on themselves (building on decades of experimentation on 25,000 US servicemen), to discover a method of interrogation which is not torture but from which they can reap basically the same intelligence benefits as torture.

And the answer to the question of "does x, y or z justify torture?" has now been answered: no, torture is not justified in any situation where waterboarding will work well enough.

[pagar]

why not release the information?

You're talking about a man who doesn't even dare release his birth certificate, probably one of the least transparent administrations in the history of this nation. Cheney's life is an open book compared to what the current administration is hiding.

[Porchlight]

Unlike your side, however, I'm determined to hold my president's feet to the fire so he doesn't end so universally despised that some incompetent bumbler from your side can take over the White House.

Let me see if I have this straight. We didn't hold Bush's feet to the fire so he ended up universally despised, with the end result that an incompetent bumbler from the other side took over the WH? This is what you'd like to avoid in the future?

[MayBee]

I'm hoping Hit went on Spring Break, and I think bgates hates me.

[Jane]

And the answer to the question of "does x, y or z justify torture?" has now been answered: no, torture is not justified in any situation where waterboarding will work well enough.

Cathy,

WE had already had that discussion - at least I had. I stated clearly that I didn't think waterboarding was torture.

He does, based on "seeing it" in the military.

Not much I could do with that except I cited Daddy's experience. (Daddy does crop up a lot on my show for some reason.)

But you are right about the wandering.

[Captain Hate]

I think bgates hates me.

Why? Perhaps they got fed up with this crummy software.

[Jane]

And the answer to the question of "does x, y or z justify torture?" has now been answered: no, torture is not justified in any situation where waterboarding will work well enough.

Cathy,

WE had already had that discussion - at least I had. I stated clearly that I didn't think waterboarding was torture.

He does, based on "seeing it" in the military.

Not much I could do with that except I cited Daddy's experience. (Daddy does crop up a lot on my show for some reason.)

But you are right about the wandering.

[Fresh Air]

Well, let's put it this way: Would Christopher Hitchens voluntarily agree to be waterboarded if he thought it really was torture?

I eagerly await his dispatches from The Iron Maiden.

Plus, it's been done THREE(!!!) times. Get over it already. There's worse stuff done in the cop shops of Chicago every weekend.

[Rob Crawford]

More protesters have been waterboarded in protest than terrorists.

If it's torture, shouldn't the protesters be facing charges?

[glenda]

Yes, I have missed hit, too! I hope his absence means he got a dream job and he's so busy, we are way down on his list of "things to do". ♥

Obama is scared of Cheney. Evidently, he and his minions are scared of anything to the right of center. And he knows he probably won the election by Acorn fraud, and if, the "extremes" get their _ _ _T together, he will be back in Hawaii, soon.
He won't want to return to Chicago since all or most of his toadies will be in jail by then.

[hit and run]

Yes, the hit family has been spring breaking and is now completely spring broken.

In the best way imaginable.

Myrtle Beach is fantastic this time of year.

[Porchlight]

Hi, Hit - great to see you and hope you and the family have been having fun!

[sbw]

Myrtle Beach is fantastic this time of year.

Who is she and what kind of trouble have you gotten her into?

[clarice]

Oh, Hit! I saw your name on the right side and by the time I went to find you, it had been buried--I've been looking thru every thread for you. Glad all is well. You have no idea how beloved all the H & Rs are .

[hit and run]

Porchlight, Clarice, et al...Smooches.

sbw:
Who is she and what kind of trouble have you gotten her into?

The best kind of trouble.

[glenda]

Whew!!!!
Hit...I was worried you were tea-bagged or something!!
Did you get buried in the sand with a caterpillar? or a crab? Was it torture?♥

[bad]

Maybee, I'm sure bgates doesn't hate you.

I see him at other places, including Tapper

[MarkJ]

Be gentle to "Don." He's not responsible for what he writes because he was obviously dropped on his head several times when he was a kid.

[Rick Ballard]

"Can anyone give me Jesus's quote about if a man has 2 cloaks, trade 1 of them in for a sword?"

That's probably a conflation of Luke 22:36 and 38. I'm not sure where your exegesis is heading but sticking with the moneychangers in the Temple is probably a better bet.

It's probably better to leave eisegesis to Marxist racist pigs such as the Right Reverend Wright. He's the one who taught Obama to exclude any thoughts of his blood brother as he spouted his "least of my brethren" bilge.

[daddy]

Thanks Rick,

Am far from a Biblical scholar but that sword comment stuck in my mind, and pops up when Jesus is falsely presented as calling for nothing other than complete pacifism and surrender.

[Rick Ballard]

Daddy,

It's still a fine counterbalance to the misinterpretation of "turn the other cheek". Jesus is telling the disciples "fellas, I will not be available to shepherd you, to protect you from the murderous rogues and thieves whom you will encounter as you travel spreading the Word, better take up a weapon and prepare to defend yourselves."

He also instructs them to take money and a bag as well as the swords - he returns them wholly to the world.

[clarice]

And sandals, Rick, sandals. My peeps, and he certainly was one of us, always like nice shoes.

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

I'm not up on customary daily foot wear for 1st century Jewish carpenters but He definitely wore sandals on the road. I find the "meek and mild" descriptions of a man of thirty who had worked with hand tools for his living to be endlessly amusing. Using a hammer, chisel, adz and spokeshave all day is just not conducive to developing the "monk's physique" favored in most depictions.

[clarice]

Certainly not, Rick.

[Mary]

The United States procecuted the Japanese as war crimnals for water boarding. We cannot hold other countries to a higher standard than we hold ourselves.

[clarice]

Mary--waterboarding POWs is not the same as waterboarding unlawful combatants. Axelrod counts on your not knowing what you are talking about when he sends you here. Pls tell him we're begging for more educated morons to play with.

[EBJ]

Can we jail the waterboard folks if the folks that illegally forced Japanese-Americans into barbed wire 'camps' during WWII weren't prosecuted? And what about the kids that died at Waco? Where is justice for them?

O is no fool. He needs to keep the hard left onboard and the ambiguity is the price.