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April 29, 2009

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Danube of Thought

"I have seen many defenders of the CIA enhanced interogation program who were outraged by the abuses at Abu Ghraib."

Count me among the stoutest defenders of the former and severest critics of the latter.

Any person in the US armed forces who causes the death of a non-thretening prisoner in his custody should be court-martialed. (I would except certain cases involving battlefield exigencies which were not present here.)

clarice

I'm with DoT. But remember who was in immediate charge of that prison(Karpinsky) , who appointed her to such a high position (Clinton) and why(AA).You run the prisons with the army you have.
OTOH don't forget that Abu Ghraib's depradations came to light because defense counsel leaked them hoping to get his client off easy--The military was already taking action.

Even the brutal murder of Berg in the vicinity of the prison moreover didn't keep the media from running those panties on the head and scarecrow pics thousands of times while refusing to run pics of people jumping off the WTC or Berg or Perle for that matter.

As for Lawrence Wilkerson, the former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell,ugh--here we go again.

clarice

**PEARL--Daniel Pearl***

narciso

It's interesting that the Taguba report which has been cited by some like Hersh to say we tortured, in this excerpt blames Gen. Karpinski, almost entirely:

14. (U) During the course of this investigation I conducted a lengthy interview with BG Karpinski that lasted over four hours, and is included verbatim in the investigation Annexes. BG Karpinski was extremely emotional during much of her testimony. What I found particularly disturbing in her testimony was her complete unwillingness to either understand or accept that many of the problems inherent in the 800th MP Brigade were caused or exacerbated by poor leadership and the refusal of her command to both establish and enforce basic standards and principles among its soldiers. (ANNEX 45 and the Personal Observations of the Interview Team).

Friedman is a pretensious fool (is there any other kind) who doesn't waiver from blaming America, but look askance at what the Mukharabats or Istakbharats of both Abdullahs do, which would make the most
staunch defender of interrogations blanch
by comparison, all the while flaunting that so called "Saudi peace plan" as if it meant
something,

bio mom

A second Spanish judge is investigating the torture issue here and Guantanamo. Let's just agree to remove ourselves entirely from the world and give it over to these loser type countries and await the apocalypse to come. I am thoroughly sick of the rest of the world as I am of over half this country now. Haven't felt such disgust in my life.

Cecil Turner

. . . but by and large, the abuses and subsequent investigations whitewashes described by Wilkerson, including the 27 homicides (Wilkerson said 25 in his June 2008 House testimony), were carried out under military rules.

I realize that's a flip remark, but it's worth reviewing some of those cases before claiming it's a travesty that more personnel weren't punished. For example:

  • Soldier reprimanded for not using warning shots before killing someone trying to enter the camp.
  • Soldier discharged for voluntary manslaughter for not warning escaping prisoner before shooting him.
IIRC, the biggest single cause of death for prisoners in US custody remains "insurgent attack" . . . which is a bit hard to blame on Rumsfeld. In addition, Church found more (~1/3) abuse cases came at the point of capture . . . than the ones related to interrogation.

There is one significant new piece of data in the Senate Intelligence report, which is the initial change to the interrogation policy written by LTG Sanchez (CJTF-7 Interrogation and Counter-Resistance Policy (September 14, 2003)). That reference is conspicuously absent from the Taguba report, which refers only to the follow-on, cleaned up version (CJTF-7 Memo: CJTF-7 Interrogation and Counter-Resistance Policy, 12 October 2003). I don't see how it changes the basic responsibilities, as all (AFAICT) the abuse happened after the new policy was implemented--and it still resulted from then-BG Karpinski willfully removing any leadership from the soldiers in the "towers"--but it's hard to feature why it was left out of the original investigative report. (And suggests actual obstruction/malfeasance on the part of CJTF-7, which was not previously apparent.)

gus

Boooo fucking hoooooo.
(On January 27 1781 George Washington quelled a dangerous mutiny in his starving Continental Army with a couple of salutary summary executions.)
Dresden and Tokyo fire bombings.
Hiroshima Nagasaki,
Mai Lai.
Clinton missile strikes in the Sudan,
The Chinese Embassy.
Obama missile strikes killing children in Pakistan.

All these evil evil evil things we do,.
America needs to grow a pair of balls.

Original MikeS

Friedman is a brilliant journalist (oxymoron?) who weaves an inaccurate narrative by judiciously omitting disagreeable (to him) facts. I can't believe that is an accident.

There does seem to be some kind of strange virus that makes journos think that the public wants them to explain "what the news means to you," or wants advocacy journalism.

The NYT and other failing news media seem totally unaware that their customers want all the facts and are willing to go where they can get them.

narciso

One good bit of news, the military court will not reconsider the acquittal of Col. Chessani, re; Haditha,

Rick Ballard

OMS,

Sssssh.. be vewy, vewy quiet. The top 25 Mediacrat propaganda outlets are losing circulation slightly faster than the Oconomy is collapsing. Better to encourage them to just lie back in that nice warm tub, close their eyes, and relax. They have enough veins open at the moment and there is nothing that Team TurboZero can do to close the wounds.

Rick Ballard

Wanna see Team TurboZero in action?

Watch it make bond yields leap buildings with a single bound.

For those dullards who actually look at numbers - the BEA Personal Income and Its Disposition Table[s] tell a slightly different tale wrt Q1 than that being promulgated by the Mediacrat propaganda organs. DPI is up a decent (for this environment) 1.5% while personal consumption was up a rather meager .3%. Hiding money from Team TurboZero (AKA "Personal saving") was up a modest 34.3%.

Go mattresses!

matt

Friedman should really go back to reporting at this point. He did a fine job at it, but his thinking recently has been muddled. Anyone who does business globally probably had a good laugh at "The World is Flat". Redundant regurgitation of the groupthink popular at the time.

daddy

Since Gus brought up George Washington, it reminded me of General Washington's unpopular hanging of captured British Spy John Andre', who was captured in disguise, with secret messages proving he was complicit in getting Benedict Arnold to turn traitor. If you don't know about the incident, any decent write up of the situation is well worth a read, and possibly of value in seeing how our Military Leadership in the midst of the Revolution dealt with violators of the generally accepted rules of War. This">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_André">This Link is from Wikipedia:

"André's defense was that he was subborning an enemy officer, "an advantage taken in war" (his words). However he never to his credit tried to pass the blame onto Arnold. André told the court that he had not desired to be behind enemy lines and had not planned it. He also noted that because he was a prisoner of war he had the right to escape in civilian clothes. On 29 September 1780, the board found André guilty of being behind American lines "under a feigned name and in a disguised habit", and that "Major André, Adjutant-General to the British army, ought to be considered as a Spy from the enemy, and that agreeable to the law and usage of nations, it is their opinion, he ought to suffer death."[2] Later, Glover was officer of the day at André's execution. Sir Henry Clinton, the British commander in New York, did all he could to save André, his favourite aide, but refused to surrender Arnold in exchange for André even though he despised Arnold. André appealed to George Washington to be executed by firing squad, but by the rules of war he was to be hanged as a spy at Tappan on 2 October 1780."

My guess, is that if Tom Friedman had been peddling his drivel in 1780, he would have been harsh on the Commander In Chief.

verner

Hey Daddy, did you read my comment about Scott Shane asking for SERE grads to speak to him? If you're interested, indicate, and I'll pass along his info.

Danube of Thought

"Mai Lai."

Actually, it was My Lai, and the officers responsible for it were court-martialed.

verner

"My guess, is that if Tom Friedman had been peddling his drivel in 1780, he would have been harsh on the Commander In Chief."

Right Daddy. This is the first "PERFECT WAR" the US has ever had to fight. Most people have no understanding of what WAR really is.

Cecil Turner

. . . did you read my comment about Scott Shane . . .

Shane destroyed my willing suspension of disbelief (of liberal bias) with this drivel TM linked earlier. At least from my viewpoint, it's "thanks but no thanks."

Dresden and Tokyo fire bombings.

Dunno why everyone cites Dresden as a US atrocity. The 8th AF attacks were predominantly on the railyards, and (British) Bomber Command did practically all the incendiaries. The Japanese firestorms were a different matter, and the US (and Curtis LeMay) can take virtually all the credit for decimating Japan's largest cities (Tokyo, Nagoya, Kobe, Osaka, Yokohama, and Kawasaki).

Tom

Last night Obama said he something to the effect that he banned the use of waterboarding when interrogating terrorists because "other methods would have gotten the same results".

So what are these "other methods" of interrogation that Obama and the left keep claiming would have worked to break KSM and the other high profile terrorists? On what basis are they predicting the success of a future outcome for an unnamed activity that never occured?

RWL

Those people were not involved with the 25 homicides which ocurred at Bagram, Abu Ghraib and Gitmo under the military program other than, I suppose, as a source of inspiration to Rumsfeld.

With respect, as someone who served in GTMO I'm asking you to be careful with you lump GTMO in with other detention operations. There have been no homicides in GTMO.

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