Torture Trials - Bring It On!

Obama cracks open the door for torture trials, or Congressional hearings, or (his favored choice if he has to choose) some sort of non-partisan truth commission.

Loose the hounds!  This will be pandemonium we can believe in - as I noted, since the left wants investigations and the right wants more torture memos, it is a good bet that we will get more of something on this topic.

Chris Rovzar at NY Magazine makes a similar point with admirable, albeit amusing, confidence:

Former vice-president Dick Cheney took a gamble yesterday when he told Sean Hannity on Fox News that he'd requested that certain CIA memos detailing what he called the "success" of controversial interrogation techniques be revealed.

...This is a gamble, because Obama probably won't release the classified information gleaned from the interrogations — because he won't want to validate them or torture in general.

I.e., Obama needs to politicize the intelligence because the truth would be inconvenient.  We agree.

But by pushing for the release of these memos, Cheney may just be inadvertently joining the bandwagon pushing for an investigation into the interrogations and the complicated legal process by which they were allowed to occur. This is the other half of his gamble. By calling for transparency on this, Cheney is putting the legal colleagues he asked to twist the law in danger. The more the American public learns and thinks about all of this, the more it's going to ask for someone's head — and Obama's already protecting the CIA, who were merely acting out what they were told was permissible. Administration officials say that the Bush legal team isn't out of their sights, though. Sanction, disbarment, and prosecution aren't off the table.

Prosecution is not off the table?  Neither is acquittal.  Neither are awkward dispositions of the House and Senate Democrats who were briefed on these procedures in 2002 and 2003 and finally realized in 2007 that they were outraged.

Oh, well - I am guessing that convictions are a foregone conclusion in Rovzar's world, since he doesn't know anyone who voted for Bush or McCain.

MORE:  Philip Zelikow, 9/11 Commission chair and adviser to Condi Rice, has a thoughtful dissent from the Bush/Cheney position.

Comments

[Cecil Turner]

Prosecution is not off the table? Neither is acquital.

In a DC court? Not happening.

[Don]

Trials! Your favorite!!!

Try to bet on the right horse this time.

[sbw]

Typhuspad went all fuzzy and indistinct about half an hour ago. Nothing at JOM would load. The spinner kept spinning, but nothing would load.

[clarice]

It could be that TM was loading new threads..it has happened to me, too, before, sbw.

[boris]

Philip Zelikow is a complete idiot ...

"In other words, Americans in any town of this country could constitutionally be hung from the ceiling naked, sleep deprived, water-boarded, and all the rest -- if the alleged national security justification was compelling."

That absurd conclusion discredits his line of reasoning, not the interrogations.

[Jane]

OT but I'm too lazy to find the thread.

Janet Napolitano beware!

"Daniel Andreas San Diego, a 31-year-old computer specialist from
Berkeley, Calif., is wanted for the 2003 bombings of two corporate
offices in California.

Authorities describe San Diego as an animal rights activist who turned
to bomb attacks. They say wears a tattoo that reads: 'It only takes a
spark.'"

LUN

[Ranger]

Well, these torture trials would be something the media could turn into a circus and distract everyone form the wave of Dem corruption stories that is going to crest in a few months.

[Don]

Actually Boris, since waterboarding is 1. not torture and 2. works so great, I really don't see a reason for U.S. police departments not to use when interrogating suspects.

Hell, school principals should use with that gang of punks to find out who toilet papered the old elm.

Let's waterboard our way back to the USA we all once knew.

[Topsecretk9]

distract everyone form the wave of Dem corruption stories that is going to crest in a few months.

And a tidal wave it's shaping up to be. With something like 20 democrats under investigation for bribery they can't keep the lid on their hard earned culture of Corruption and Democrats for long.

[Boatbuilder]

Mr. Zelikow hasn't had to chair any more commissions seeking to determine how it was that a shadowy network of Islamofascist terrorists operating both inside and outside the US were able to murder over 3000 people, destroy the World Trade Center and very nearly the Pentagon and the US Congress. And his toga is clean.

Cheney isn't taking any risk and he knows it. As soon as it is confirmed that waterboarding resulted in solid, actionable information (and Cheney obviously knows that it did), the political debate is over.

[narciso]

Zelicow, the one who gave the State
Department Iraq cables to Woodward for his previous book, that was a good move. Working his way to credentialed moron status.

[Sue]

Let's waterboard our way back to the USA we all once knew.

Posted by: Don | April 21, 2009 at 02:19 PM

Oh, no, Donnie boy, I would rather we go back to the Clinton era. Renditions, baby, renditions. True torture while our president pretends it isn't happening.

[Sue]

The polls must be going crazy for Obama to be flipflopping like this. Prosecutions one day, move forward the next, back to prosecutions. Maybe he needs better pollsters.

[narciso]

Reboot the telepromter.

[Jane]

Don,

Do you object to President Obama sending unmanned drones into Pakistan to kill bad guys and their neighbors?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Cheney isn't taking any risk and he knows it. As soon as it is confirmed that waterboarding resulted in solid, actionable information (and Cheney obviously knows that it did), the political debate is over.

Which, I suspect, guarantees it won't happen.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Since you asked, Sue, it's back to +2 percent after a short dither upward.

"Dither." I suspect that verb's gonna be handy.

[anduril]

awkward dispositions of the House and Senate Democrats who were briefed on these procedures in 2002 and 2003 and finally realized in 2007 that they were outraged.

...or, even before the disposition of the cases, there could be depositions of those peeps, and those could prove, well, awkward.

[verner]

Hell, school principals should use with that gang of punks to find out who toilet papered the old elm."

Reductio Ad Absurdem That's a minus 5 in debate points.

[daddy]

Where in the world is Carmen, err Daniel San Diego?

[anduril]

Come to think of it, I'd be very much in favor of disposing of some of those people--in a strictly bi- or even non-partisan fashion, mind you--in a manner that they might find awkward.

[Don]

Cheney, to take one example, failed to counter Wilson effectively, lost his right hand man in the operation, then couldn't keep Libby from being convicted, and finally he couldn't get him pardoned when Bush is the only one he had to convince!

The guy is just not competent. You expect me to belive he could operate an effective torture regime. Please.

Jane-my general answer is no. Such assasinations could prove counterproductive. If you present me a specific hypothetical, I'll reply more specifically.

[anduril]

absurdam. use of latin on internet forums is always more effective when spelled correctly. otherwise it tends to be self defeating because there's always some smart ass out there...

[tgs]

Given our newfound chummyness with Chavez, perhaps he can host the trials for us. They would probably be as fair as any treatment given by the Obama administration or Congress.

[PaulL]

I agree, Cecil, if it were up to a D.C. jury, you might as well not bother giving evidence on either side.

I agree, Boris, that Philip Zelikow is a complete idiot.

[matt]

paging Senator Church, paging Senator Church. JJ Angleton is looking for you in hell.

[Sue]

because there's always some smart ass out there...

Yeah. Just waiting to jump on someone's spelling error. I don't consider them smart. Just asses.

[matt]

Don;

there is a huge difference between air strikes and assassinations. Typically in Pakistan the drones have been used to target high value enemy combatants and the drones are normally under military authority.

[Don]

Oops. News is breaking that Cheney lied about making a "formal request" with the CIA to release the memos.

The man is mentally ill.

[Rob Crawford]

Don, Cheney's a thousand times a better man than you ever will be.

Just wanted to make sure that fact was stated. Go on with your ritual hate.

[Don]

But he's not a better shot,Rob C.

[anduril]

Source duly noted and considered.

[Sue]

Don,

Can you link to the breaking news on Cheney?

[Sue]

Funny how we thought the same thing.

[Don]

Sure. First ask yourself: when Cheney told Sean Inanity that he'd made a "formal request" with the CIA what the hell was he talking about?

Nobody knows: http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/cheney-spox-refuses-to-explain-his-formal-request-for-cia-torture-intel/

He's lying.

[Fresh Air]

I don't know, for his age I understand Dick is a hell of a shot.

But back to this discussion...are we seriously talking about bringing up this goddamn subject for zillionth time over three terrorists who were waterboarded?

Which isn't torture, BTW.

I will only support this investigation if they stop all Congressional spending during the duration.

[Jane]

Jane-my general answer is no. Such assasinations could prove counterproductive. If you present me a specific hypothetical, I'll reply more specifically.

Don,

So you don't oppose random killing and collateral damage but you do oppose the guy who was behind 911 being waterboarded?

That just makes no sense to me.

[MayBee]

Yeah, it was one of Andrea Mitchell's contacts that told her Cheney hadn't asked the CIA to release the memos.
Maybe the same CIA people that told Mitchell about Plame.

If those memos disprove Cheney, they will be leaked.

[Rob Crawford]

Gee, that's a solid source, Don.

[Don]

Can you read? I replied NO to your question, I do oppose "random killing and collateral damage."

Things will make more sense if you improve your reading comprehension.

In retrospect, it would have been better to let the Soviets take over Afghanistan in the 1980s so my confidence that we're doing the right thing in Pakistan is concomitantly low.

[verner]

Cheney is no fool. If he didn't know for a fact that he had the goods on them, he would never have opened his mouth.

Mitchell of NBC is just being played again.

[Sue]

MayBee,

That they are trying to prove Cheney is lying about a "formal" request pretty much tells you where the story is going. They won't release anything willingly that supports what Cheney is saying.

[Don]

Sue-Cheney is the one with the "No Comment"!

How about Cheney just release a record of his request?

[boris]

better to let the Soviets take over ...

Ah the source of your hostility is revealed.

[Cecil Turner]

Oops. News is breaking that Cheney lied about making a "formal request" with the CIA to release the memos.

Right. Apparently the way you make a "formal request" for declassification is through the National Archives:

A source familiar with the request said the former vice president made the request to the National Archives, and said that is the appropriate process for requesting declassification.

The man is mentally ill.

Or perhaps just smarter than you. "Oops" indeed.

[verner]

Here's a link to POLITICO.

Think of Andrea Mitchell as a clay pigeon who just got blasted on the firing range.

And yes I made a shot gun joke on purpose.

[Fresh Air]

Don was getting the crap kicked out him on the other thread, so he went into hiding on this thread.

--------------

Mitchell of NBC is just being played again. That's a tune I will leave for Alan Greenspan to take up.

[Jane]

Can you read? I replied NO to your question, I do oppose "random killing and collateral damage."

Since my question was:

"Do you object to President Obama sending unmanned drones into Pakistan to kill bad guys and their neighbors?"

And you replied "no" perhaps it is not my reading problem.

Now the more important question is why you aren't railing against the administration for their attacks in Pakistan. That's happening right now Don, not 6 years ago. Wouldn't your time be more prudently spent in that endeavor?

[MayBee]

The request isn't the important thing, Don.
Obama can release them.
Or Cheney can make a formal request if he hasn't already.

Or, as I said, the people at the CIA can leak them. Or maybe one can get her husband to write about them in the NYTs.

[verner]

OH, POLITO LUN

[MayBee]

Don knows when you want something done, you just send Sandy Berger into the national archives.

[Jane]

Things will make more sense if you improve your reading comprehension.

Some people make it just too easy.

[boris]

Cheney claims he made a formal CIA request.

Mitchell claims her source denies the CIA received one.

They could both be correct. Sometimes different CIA folk keep secrets from each other. Sometimes they even engage in "disinformation". OTOH Cheney has a little better record than the she who famously said she "must have been drunk" to admit everybody already knew about Wilson's CIA wife.

[MayBee]

verner's politico link:

Researching his memoirs, former Vice President Dick Cheney is pushing the CIA to declassify files that he claims would vindicate the CIA’s use of coercive interrogation techniques that President Barack Obama has banned.

The request, which the CIA has not yet answered...

Cheney originally requested the reports in late March as he worked on his book, but now thinks the documents should be made public immediately...

The CIA declined to comment on Cheney's request. Other officials say a demand like Cheney's is so legally complex that it’s unsurprising the government has not yet answered him.

MSNBC is embarassing itself, I fear.

[Don]

Turner, I'm not even going to click your crappy link.

If you buy Cheney's or whoever's bullshit excuse that the National Archives has the power to unilaterally declassify the memos in question, you are a bigger fool than Cheney or I combined.

Actually, Jane, you are right. I was the one with the reading comprehension problem.

[Topsecretk9]

Or maybe one can get her husband to write about them in the NYTs.

HAH

[Sue]

How did Mitchell get into this? Is she reporting the same thing as Greg Sargent at Don's link?

[boris]

officials say a demand like Cheney's is so legally complex that it’s unsurprising the government has not yet answered him

Then how can Obama release classified documents? For political reasons no less. Didn't we learn that is very very bad bad bad back when the Bush administration "leaked" portions of the pre invaion NIE on Iraq. Even Fitz said so.

[Topsecretk9]

That they are trying to prove Cheney is lying about a "formal" request pretty much tells you where the story is going.

no kidding -- what a lame thing to even raise. Sounds like the JournoList tested meme of the day .

[Rob Crawford]

If you buy Cheney's or whoever's bullshit excuse that the National Archives has the power to unilaterally declassify the memos in question, you are a bigger fool than Cheney or I combined.

Where was the claim that the National Archives can unilaterally declassify something? The most I've seen claimed is that the proper starting point for a request is through the National Archives.

You know who does have the authority to unilaterally declassify things? The president. So why don't you ask Obama to get to it already?

[Topsecretk9]

MSNBC gets Schustered aqgain.

[boris]

"Turner, I'm not even going to click your crappy link."

None so blind. Consider yourself pwn3d.

[Don]

Cheney is the one brought up the CIA.

Hell, I'll ask the Archives to declassify every piece of paper they got. Send me the form.

Just a BS excuse since Cheney was caught lying.

[Topsecretk9]

Don doesn't even know what he's talking about, he's just throwing crap around and lying about all kinds of things because A - he just got excited then pwned by MSNBC and B- He's deathly afraid - like the rest of the left - of the memos being released because there is no terror threat it was all BooshMCChimpy "scare tactics" remember?

[Sue]

Unless y'all know something I missed, Andrea Mitchell is not the one reporting that Cheney is lying. It is someone named Greg Sargent at Plumline, whatever that is too.

[Topsecretk9]

Greg Sargent is a JournoList talking point cheerleader and a big embarrassment to WAPO. Orignial thinker is not in his resume. Jason Leopold probably emailed him this "scoop"

[Don]

Ts9- I don't even know what MSNBC piece you're talking about.

The CIA denies Cheney made a request. I read Cheney had no comment to Sargent and I know he's lying.

Then Politico picked on up, and suddenly it was we made a request to the Archives.

I just read Politico and they are awaiting a response from the Archives.

How much do you want to bet no Cheney request was made thre either?

[Sue]

How much do you want to bet no Cheney request was made thre either?

$100 million dollars.

[Don]

That was actually funny, Sue.

[clarice]

You good on that bet, Don?--I'd be glad to hold your $100 million for each of you until this is resolved by the National Archives. Let me say I'm certain Sue has the better end of the bet.

Or--I have another idea. If it turns out that Cheney has made the request, you leave and never darken our doorway again under your present or any other name.

[matt]

the original request usually goes to the Archives, who then parcel it out to the relevant agency(s) for approval. If it were Bush Adminstration documents, it would probably be valid to request them through the Archives.

[Rob Crawford]

Cheney is the one brought up the CIA.

Would the request be made directly to the CIA or through the National Archives?

[Cecil Turner]

Turner, I'm not even going to click your crappy link.

If you buy Cheney's or whoever's bullshit excuse that the National Archives . . .

Oh, please. If you'd bothered to click on that first link (EO 12958), you'd know that the National Archives (in particular, the Information Security Oversight Office) runs the classification program. If you bothered to check the ISOO website, you'd also find they are the go-to folks for special requests:

ISOO receives and takes action on complaints, appeals, and suggestions from persons inside or outside the executive branch regarding any aspect of the administration of Executive Order 12958, as amended, and Executive Order 12829, as amended.

You'd also have made less of a fool of yourself. But no, Cheney must be an evil liar! Because he is!!!

[Sue]

Or--I have another idea. If it turns out that Cheney has made the request, you leave and never darken our doorway again under your present or any other name.

Hey, I need that $100 million the way Obama is spending my money.

[boris]

Following quotes excerpted from Politico articles linked on this thread (see if it isn't obvoius what's goin on) ...

"The Obama administration denied Tuesday that former Vice President Dick Cheney had directly asked the CIA ..."

A senior U.S. intelligence offical e-mailed: "The Agency has received no such request from the former Vice President.”

A source familiar with the request said the former vice president made the request to the National Archives,

The CIA declined to comment on Cheney's request.

[Topsecretk9]

People like Don can't help it because their fed all the coordinated messages their independent thinkers at Journolist™ drum up in a excited panic.

[PeterUK]

But he's not a better shit,Rob C.

Posted by: Don

[bolitha]

Where did "Don" come from????

[Don]

Clarice-ok I'll bet you.

If there is any record of Cheney making a request to the National Archives to declassify torture memos, I will never come here again.

And if there is no proof that Cheney ever made such a request, you will never post here again.

Are we on?

[Jane]

Actually, Jane, you are right. I was the one with the reading comprehension problem.

Well that's great but you avoided the question.

Why aren't you screeching about Obama's murder of innocent Pakistani's?

[Don]

Turner, will you at least agree that Cheney stating on national TV that he made a "formal request to the CIA" was inaccurate?

And why would he choose to be so inaccurate when clearly Cheney knows the procedure?

[verner]

You know, the last argument that the hysterical torture crowd is stuck with is that it's bad PR and it will make all the Muslims and other "so called" oppressed people who already hate us, hate us more.

That America must somehow meet some impossibe standard of virtue at the expense of the lives of our people and prosperity. That while everything else is put up to situational ethics, and relativistic interpretation, there can be absolutely no debate over when it is proper and necessary to used enhanced interrogation techniques as a last resort. (and as the memos show, other methods weren't producing what we needed.)

A point to remember that Hayden brought up in his WSJ piece:

1. Our critics are the same people who said we deserved 911

And I'll Add

2. They are the same people who say nada about Castro and Chavez's human rights violations and crimes.

3. They are the same people who supported the soviet union during the cold war--how about that KGB!(look at Don't statement on Afghanistan! whoo hoo)

4. They are the people who constantly bring up Apartheid, but never mention Winnie Mandella necklacing those kids.

5. They are the people who called A-Q butchers in Iraq "freedom fighters."

6. They are the people who support Hezbollah and Hamas, and the murder of innocent women and children in Israel

7. They are the people who cheered Pol Pot onward, until his crimes were too horrible to hide.

8. They are the people who wear Che tee shirts, ignoring his bloody crimes against those brave souls who opposed marxist totalitarianism in Cuba.

9. They are the people who don't think Bill Ayers is all that bad of a guy, even though he admits to bombings, including the firebombing of a judge's home while his family slept inside, and has been implicated in the murder of police officers in San Francisco.

We could go on, but the bottom line is, I don't care what they think about America.

We'll never win with those people no matter what we do. It's the things we love about America that they hate the most.

And I'm willing to bet that most Americans agree with me.

And Jane, if image was the real issue,(and it's not), the predator drones killing children as "collateral damage" should be much more troubling than water boarding a known mass murderer--but since Obama is doing it...

[clarice]

To declassify the portion of the memos that revealed what information they received from enhanced interrogation--Bet's on!

[MayBee]

Sue- I've got MSNBC on, and Andrea Mitchell is reporting the same thing, based on her sources in the CIA.

[verner]

Don't=Don's
Freudian slip.

[Don]

Excellent, Clarice. This is actually exciting.

Jane, my opposition is on record. If you have Obamas cell phone, send me the number and I'll call him directly to bitch about it.

[Cecil Turner]

Turner, will you at least agree that Cheney stating on national TV that he made a "formal request to the CIA" was inaccurate?

Donny-boy, if he made an appeal through ISOO, which is charged with taking it to the proper department (i.e., CIA), then his statement is perfectly accurate.

[Sue]

MayBee,

Thanks. You do know something I don't. ::grin::

[Topsecretk9]

Gotta love the lefts stupid little game of semantics as if asking the CIA through the formal process of going through National Archives makes him a liar and like the morons on the left wouldn't be making the very same argument of Cheney being a liar had said it in the opposite manner --

Cheney false states he asked National Archive to release when it's the CIA who releases to the NA or some BS.

[Don]

Turner boy, that's a big IF.

Glad to see you'll concede he might be lying. We'll know soon I hope.

[MayBee]

Don- the article from Politico stating Cheney made the request to the Archives in March was written last night.

[Sue]

Don,

He's writing a book. You are on the losing end of this bet. He made the formal request. You know he did and now you are flapping in the wind.

[boris]

Turner, will you at least agree that Cheney stating on national TV that he made a "formal request to the CIA" was inaccurate?

Inaccurate is not "lie".

If the reports are CIA reports (they are) then what Cheney stated on national TV was shorthand for the procedure of formally going through the National Archives to declassify CIA reports.

[MayBee]

Now we know (again) that Mitchell's CIA sources are the Cheney haters.

Thanks Andrea!

[Enlightened]

Hello

[Don]

Maybee-I really don't buy that Cheney was requesting that the CIA memos containing intelligence be declassified in March, when he's complaining that OLC memos with no intelligence (literally) were released in April.

But we'll see.

[boris]

Mitchell's CIA sources are the Cheney haters.

Good observation.

[Enlightened]

Some of my comments are disappearing???

[Don]

Sue-my bet with Clarice is very specific.

Here's Cheney exact quote from last night:

"There are reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity. They have not been declassified.

And I’ve now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was, as well as to see this debate over the legal opinions."

No way he was doing this in March.

[MayBee]

I really don't buy that Cheney was requesting that the CIA memos containing intelligence be declassified in March, when he's complaining that OLC memos with no intelligence (literally) were released in April.

Why? They are different memos, with different information. Do you think releasing memos is all or nothing?
He says the memos he's requested wouldn't harm current operations, but would vindicate him.