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April 23, 2009

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Topsecretk9

I could be wrong, but wasn't Congress first briefed with videotapes? (that were later destroyed)

Also, IIRC, the Botox Granny and her peers wanted to know if the techniques were tough enough.

Topsecretk9

briefed

Who knew about the existence of the tapes?

Senior CIA officials, as well as a few members of Congress, who were briefed about the tapes as early as 2002, according to The Washington Post. They reportedly condoned the interrogation techniques the agency was using. In addition, CIA officials claim they briefed three members of congressional intelligence committees in 2003, telling them about the tapes and the agency's intention to eventually destroy them. Several members of the panel, though, disagree with that assertion. They say they were told of the tapes' existence but not of any CIA plans to destroy them.

clarice

We are know the botox has gone to her brain. Seriously, we've no long term evidence about the effects of injecting this much poison into your head.

Nick

Anyone who knew and is still in office, needs to go.

Anyone who has legal culpability, needs to be prosecuted.

Obama is trying to play it politically smart by avoiding prosecution. He knows that many on the right will melt down if Bush and Cheney are held accountable. There's a significant liberal constituency that wants to avoid prosecutions because it will cost the nation more than they think our national honor will benefit.

Do you want a nation of laws, or not?

clarice

Actually Nick, I think we ought to cast a special medal with Obama's face on it that says "From an Ungrateful Nation" and give it to all the guys who risked their necks (and those like Spann who died) in the process of making their best efforts to save our sorry, spoiled asses, including especially idiot children like yourself who don't have a clue what they are talking about.

lurking

You'd think Emanuel could have told Obama not to open this Pandora's Box. I wonder what went through Obama's mind for that month during which he supposedly agonized over the release of the memoes? I'll bet he could sense trouble, but just couldn't help reaching for the low hanging fruit. You know he didn't foresee the mess this has become for the Democrats. And Heaven help them after the next episode of terror domestically.

Let this scenario be replayed a hundred times. Obama is a fool.

clarice

Yes, he is and this is his most foolish act yet.
*It makes the world think he's a naive idiot, for thinking that throwing the CIA and former officials under the bus they would love us really love us.
*It makes it ever harder to imagine the guys in the field will try very hard to get critical information from detainees.
*It criminalizes politics even more and will end up in the biggest mort partisan food fight onthe Hill in out lifetimes.

*It assures us that when Obama really really needs OLC to give him solid help in similar situations (not nutsy stupid things like whether the unconstitutional DC voting Bill is legal which he did muscle them into changing to meet his needs) they will not stick their necks out
*If you think appointees like Geithner and Napolitano are stupid, look for the kind of dopes you'll get when they are certain to be hauled thru the criminal law wringer by the next party in power.

Joan

All of the Democrats are fools -- those in Congress and the voters who send them there. They have to be or they wouldn't act the way they do or say the preposterous things they do. God help us all. Especially when you think Obama tapped Napolitano (sp) to head Homeland Security. And voters keep choosing representatives like Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank and politicans like Harry Reid and Patrick Lahey (sp) and Christopher Dodd. The list is too long to post. I thought they couldn't get much worse after they held the Abu Garib (sp) hearings, but to contemplate congressional hearings over this fake torture business is too much to bear.

I probably should look up the correct spelling of those names, but they aren't worth it.

Semanticleo

Why didn't Nixon just destroy the tapes, then all would be right with the world?

Because, we just want to look Froward ! (sic)

SunnyDay

Pelosi would make a perfect heroine in a Stephen King novel - a woman who sells her soul to the devil for political power.

daddy

TM,

Perhaps I can rescue Pelosi from this time travel conundrum by sighting the work of the late great Physicist, ">http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse"> John Wheeler. In a 2002 article in Discover Magazine, Wheeler suggested "that a single photon
emitted from a distant quasar can
simultaneously follow two paths to Earth,
even if those paths are separated by many
light-years. Here one photon travels past two
different galaxies, with both routes deflected
by the gravitational pull of the galaxies. Stranger
still, Wheeler theorizes, the observations
astronomers make on Earth today decide the
path the photon took billions of years ago." Got that? It means human observation determines what happened in the past, and if unobserved, then it hasn't yet happened in a single precise fashion.

In Pelosi terms, this means that even if Zubaydah was waterboarded in August and she was in a meeting where everyone was told about it in September, in the universe within which Pelosi dwells she wasn't briefed about it because she was picking her nose instead of observing, ergo no such briefing occurred. She would have had to have removed her finger from her nose or her head from her rectum and actually observed the briefing for it to have become reality.

If you consider the title of this physics story, "Does The Universe Exist If We're Not Looking," as an apt description of Speaker Pelosi, then I think your confusion will be cleared up. But only in this universe.

clarice

Wonderful, Daddy? (Though the imagery isn't.)

Semanticleo

Thump !

JM Hanes

Daddy:

I love the unique connections you make. Reading your posts has gotten to be like coming up for air in this swamp of politics we inhabit. Yes! The world has been spinning on its axis for a long, long time! Yes! There are people out there doing other things! {The world is still spinning on an axis, isn't it?}

ben

"Anyone who knew and is still in office, needs to go.

Anyone who has legal culpability, needs to be prosecuted."

That sounds good but does not apply here. Waterboarding is not torture, so Dems will just have to find another issue to pretend to be outraged about. This silly notion that people who provided legal advice would be prosecuted would end the legal system as we know it. The only benefit I see is that if Obama really wants to get bogged down (quagmire, anyone) trying to implement some cheap retribution on the Bush administration, it will leave him a lot less time to pass socialized medicine and open borders and card check and all the other goodies he owes liberals groups that paid for his election.

Charlie (Colorado)

It makes the world think he's a naive idiot, for thinking that throwing the CIA and former officials under the bus they would love us really love us.

Think?

Charlie (Colorado)

so Dems will just have to find another issue to pretend to be outraged about.

Dreamer.

Semanticleo

There's even something here for Iran-Contra
devotees..............

Deeeelicious.

PD

"Do you want a nation of laws, or not?"

Yes, and that's why the politically-motivated liberal grandstanding is so repulsive and repugnant.


Doesn't Obama realize that if he goes down this road of criminalizing political differences that the same will be done to him by the next administration?

JM Hanes

PD:

If I were lefty, I would say what next administration?

JM Hanes

lurker:

"You'd think Emanuel could have told Obama not to open this Pandora's Box."

You'd think having four former CIA Chiefs, along with his own Leon Panetta tell him not to do it might have made an impression too, wouldn't you?

PD

"If I were lefty, I would say what next administration?"

Yes, I considered that. It does occur to me that the only way he could think they'll get away with this without inviting retribution is if they intend to seize control permanently.

Of course, that sounds like the ravings of a conspiracy nut.

Doesn't it?

RichatUF

PD-

Nope. But Obama isn't going to be quite as gentle with the CIA as the Bush Administration was. Wonder if any of those whiz kids are having second thoughts about their leak war now.

lurking

JMHanes, I love it; the only think he thinks about for a month and he gets it fabulously, flagrantly wrong. More to come. And to think that I saw it on Mulberry Street.

Tailgunner

Breathtaking stupidity. Or is it?

If a President wanted to sabotage our national security, destroy any respect and credibility from both our allies and our enemies, and guarantee future and more deadly terrorist attacks, he couldn't do it any better than Obama is right now.

Everything about this man is destructive, chilling, dangerous and ominous.

Nothing is off the table with this anti-American megalomaniac.

JM Hanes

lurking - (sorry for blowing your screen name!)

"I love it; the only think he thinks about for a month and he gets it fabulously, flagrantly wrong."

LOL! They were probably confused by all the different political calculations that making an actual decision required.

Bill in AZ

They were probably confused by all the different political calculations that making an actual decision required.

More likely trying to cut through the fog of cocaine addled misfiring and crossfiring synapses.

verner

No, I swear to God, this is not from the ONION.

Obama is going to release the 7 Chinese A-Q from Gitmo into the US, where they will be taking up RESIDENCE in DC.

Gee, The Chinese are going to be sooo happy about that

Peace and Love Y'all. Making friends around the world. LUN

scoopa

I am so very glad that Bibi is in charge in Israel. The conversation will be changing very soon, and TheBama's time will come. We will all have to put up or shut up......

P.S. Remind me again why the Jewish community always votes Democrat???? Makes NO sense.

glenda

urgh-I think i'm on a list. I've been editing my rant for about 1 hour and the system won't take it. It's late, I'll restart tomorrow. I was going good, too!! Had a line about Sandy Burger's Pull-ups!

Molon Labe

If they injected Zubaday with botulinim poison, would that be torture?

kate

I remember the dark days immediately following 9/11. The complaints that the CIA failed to keep America safe. The additional complaints that the Agency had become risk adverse.

I think the media and the international left have successfully made the leading operational terror planners victims and the people who tried to keep us safe the bad guys.

The moderates and conservatives were so slow countering this assault that I see no alternative but to let it play out, resign ourselves that there will be hearings or trials and hope, despite the media cheerleading, that someone, anyone will emerge from our side to ensure massive blowback for this irresponsible, reckless nonsense.

Right now I'm not hopeful.

Harrison

She also knew about wiretapping on Jane Harman. Wasn't she against that, too?

PaulL

From the L.A Times article that Verner linked to:

Within the prison, Uighurs are not considered a grave threat and are allowed greater freedom, such as television privileges, than other detainees.

But the TV privileges underscored potential difficulties to come, according to one current and one former U.S. official. Not long after being granted access to TV, some of the Uighurs were watching a soccer game. When a woman with bare arms was shown on the screen, one of the group grabbed the television and threw it to the ground, according to the officials.

PaulL

Hmmm. Makes you wonder what the Uighurs would do to Michelle Obama if they happened to meet her.

PMII

Though this ticks me off to the nth degree, this is all a diversion. Follow the money.

PeterUK

OUT!

laura

Frighteningly, this President has been able to push through his agenda with a speed and force that has not been seen in any recent administrations. While we see his policies and decisions as disastrous to the point of destroying the country we shouldn't underestimate his ability to make this happen. He may be an idiot, but so far he has been a most capable idiot.

peter

Great post, Daddy. I'd love to be a passenger on one of your flights. You probably raise the intercom banter quality up a few notches over the usual weather related drivel. Folks, if you look out the left side of the plane, you'll see Nevada, where Harry Reid is going to burn a few hundred billion dollars on an unworkable high speed rail boondoggle.

Pofarmer

"You'd think Emanuel could have told Obama not to open this Pandora's Box."

That would be Rahm "dead fish" Emanuel folks. They are trying to CRIMINALIZE being Republican. I'm sure that in whatever world they inhabit they intend to see to it that no Republican is ever elected ever again, and this is one of their ways to do it. I don't think any of this is unintentional, or unplanned. I heard Holder on the radio last night saying he was going to investigate. They are going to milk this for all it's worth, plus 2.

verner

Uighers.

Let me give you an idea of what this looks like in the the PRC.

Just imagine if China had captured some of the 911 bombers, and kept them in detention for a few years. Then they decided they were no longer a threat, so they relocated them to a nice apartment building in the ex-pat part of Shanghi, free as birds. What would our reaction be?

Since you're dealing with China, a nation that is very sensitive and uber nationalistic and that regards the ACLU civil rights argument as piffle, multiply that by a factor of 10.

The networks these "detainees" belong to have caused much havoc in the land of the dragon. And the very fact that they were picked up in Afghanistan tells you everything you need to know.

Hey, this should really improve our "image" with the red Chinese! They should really like us after this. Really in our interest to piss them off in a rather in your face sort of way.

Pofarmer

Ya know, the Doofus in cheif is working on controlling/destroying the banking sector, manufacturing sector, power generation sector, and the political sector.

We. Are. So. Screwed.

Pofarmer

I'm not sure we can survive this amount of, just, abject stupidity on this many levels.

narciso

For the next step, let's release some Chechens we captured, and I guess send
them back to Russia, I'm sure Vlad won't mind. It's too much at one time, and we can't rule out it's intentional.

fdcol63

My worst 2008 election fears are being validated every day.

Obama, Pelosi, Reid et al are not "naive" or "ignorant" about the real world. They understand it very well.

They're just on the other side.

hit and run

Daddy:
Perhaps I can rescue Pelosi from this time travel conundrum

Well. She would be fascinated, she assures us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeEqCppZiKo>Liberal latitude with the longitude

[Politico reporter David] Rogers also calls Pelosi "Nancy the Navigator" because she says, "I have always loved longitude. I love latitude; it's in the stars. But longitude, it's about time... time and clocks and all the rest of that have always been a fascination for me."

Longitard.

PeterUK

The dogged adherence to abstract concepts,such as the law and the American way,obscures the fundamental reality,there are those who wish to kill you in the nastiest way possible.I realise the Dodo Generation cannot accept this simple reality because it is outside their life experience and the teaching that if something bad happens it must have been the result of their own actions.But sorry kid,"They don't like you,they really don't like you".

Captain Hate

Speaking of the Chechens, LUN (assuming the goddamn thing is working in this rotten software) on an article posing why does Israel take it up the wazz on "world opinion" for their treatment of the pali vermin and the Rooskis get a pass on their arguably much worse dealings with the Chechens.

hit, reading that Pelosi tripe convinces me that she believes in astrology and the healing power of crystals.

Appalled

It's pretty clear Obama in some fashion misjudged how his statements were going to play out in the news cycle. He should read more blogs -- a quick perusal of Sullivan and Greenwald could have told him how the left would handle this. A perusal of this fine site could have told him how the right, and certain ex-military and ex-security types would handle it.

Now, Obama, after having done a pretty good job of keeping the news cycle under his thumb with his foreign trips, is losing control of it again. (This is managing even to obscure the usual 100 days hosannas)

I don't know if I believe Politico, when it tells us Obama went off message when he said certain folks would be subject to prosecution. Since his off the cuff/ teleprompter remarks seemed rather carefully worded, I think Obama said exactly what he meant to say, even if other administration folks were delivering a different message.

I have read in Sullivan his belief that Obama plays a long game: not concerning himself with the day to day gyrations, because he has a vision of where he wants to be. And I think that is to some extent true. But I think Obama also is so convinced of the purity of his motives and the clarity of his intellect, that he does not always understand that he can be opposed by people equally convinced of the purity of their motives and the clarity of their intellect. This results in a lot of finely wrought plans that are elegant in concept and dismal in execution.

Where does this take us? Not sure. But if the Democrats turn their noise machine onto the task of making the GOP the party of torture, things like today's Pelosi story, yesterday's oops memo censorship story, will continue to happen to them. And I think they will be puzzled by that.

clarice

The WaPo has a long story about how he decided to release the memos and he had a little debate in his office with people on one side arguing against the people on the other and then actually picked a person from each side to argue it before he chose.

"hit, reading that Pelosi tripe convinces me that she believes in astrology and the healing power of crystals."
It's her own brand of Catholicism don't ya know--along with the Nancy doctrine on abortion and who knows what else.

I still suspect it's the effect of long term botox poisoning.

Rick Ballard

"Though this ticks me off to the nth degree, this is all a diversion. Follow the money."

Correct. Today (probably late this afternoon) the Fed will release a report describing the makeup of Turbo's stress test - not the results, just the methodology. An analysis of the methodology will reveal which banks have been selected to be "partners" in the Obama revival of corporativismo and which banks have been judged as noncooperative to the effort to install fascism in the United States.

It may be wise to give some thought to refusing to do business with those companies which choose fascist bootlicking as their way forward. The (D)irty Socialists are going to turn the coin over pretty quickly and fascism is on the other side. Fascism represents the puritanical face of dirty socialism - it's a lot less fun than the barnyard licentiousness that the socialists have used to destroy the family and murder babies on their way to power.

HINT: When Zero promotes "saving" among the pustulent hogs who constitute his base, he's preparing them to be forced to "save" through the mandatory purchase of government debt.

Pofarmer

Obama, Pelosi, Reid et al are not "naive" or "ignorant" about the real world. They understand it very well.

They're just on the other side.

So, the question becomes, Why?. Are they communists? What?

fdcol63

Why?

A complex question, with differing reasons for each individual involved, I would think.

cathyf
urgh-I think i'm on a list. I've been editing my rant for about 1 hour and the system won't take it.
Did you get the error message saying "We're sorry, we cannot accept this data"? The reason that this happens is precisely that you have spent an hour working on your post. Enough other posts have gone up in the interim that typepad can't correctly add yours. The solution is simple -- refresh the page and then hit post.

In firefox/mac, at least, your post will not get deleted out of the edit box when you refresh. But if you spent an hour working on it, you don't want to rely on that! Push the Edit button if you aren't already there, click in the edit box and hit splat-A, splat-C (ctrl-A, ctrl-C for windows) before you hit refresh. Then if somehow your comment disappears then you can get it back out of the paste buffer (with splat/ctrl-V)

Also, somebody was complaining earlier about typhuspad refusing to post from preview. If you find yourself there, click on the Edit button, SelectAll+Copy your post, hit Refresh, then Post when it finishes refreshing.

ben

"Now, Obama, after having done a pretty good job of keeping the news cycle under his thumb with his foreign trips"

Huh, was that the trip where he blamed the U.S. for global economic meltdown and all other ills or the one where he got berated by Daniel Ortega and cavorted with his good marxist gift bearing buddy Hugo or the one where he said Mexican drug lords were operating with weapons from the U.S.? I guess it all depends on whose "news cycle" you are watching.

anduril

You'd think Emanuel could have told Obama not to open this Pandora's Box.

lurking, if you check the record, I think you'll find that Emanuel DID tell him not to do this, in the sense that he assured the world publicly that this wouldn't happen. And, of course, it won't. Obama will get the "credit" from his lefty base for the suggestion and the blame for pulling the plug on it will be assigned to the Senate and/or House.

It appears to me that Obama believes that this constant turmoil and political theater works to his advantage by distracting attention while he advances his remake of America. If you go by his approval ratings alone (which I don't), you'd have to say that he has an argument. I still believe this will fail, that Congress will gridlock as various special interests come into increasing and increasingly focused and organized conflict.

MayBee

But I think Obama also is so convinced of the purity of his motives and the clarity of his intellect, that he does not always understand that he can be opposed by people equally convinced of the purity of their motives and the clarity of their intellect. This results in a lot of finely wrought plans that are elegant in concept and dismal in execution.

I agree with that, appalled.
It is a very common thing- people who have well thought-out opinions often think those with differing opinions simply haven't thought it through. If they would, they would obviously agree.

I'll also add that I don't think Obama is used to being president yet, and having his words and opinions be THE decisive word, rather than one among hundreds who can't do anything about the situation anyway.

Porchlight

Agree with your comments, Appalled. He definitely thinks he's the purest and smartest guy in the room and that his opponents on any position will certainly come around to his way of thinking if he can just sit down with them and discuss it.

I was just a kid during the Carter years, but didn't he take a similar line?

verner

Great Jefferson Quote. Needs to be tatooed on Obama's scrawny backside:

Jefferson offered one of the earliest formulations of the sentiment, although not of the phrase. In 1803, Thomas Jefferson's ambassadors to France arranged the purchase of the Louisiana territory in conflict with Jefferson's personal belief that the Constitution did not bestow upon the federal government the right to acquire or possess foreign territory. Due to political considerations, however, Jefferson disregarded his constitutional doubts, signed the proposed treaty, and sent it to the Senate for ratification. In justifying his actions, he later wrote: "[a] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means

clarice

That is a magnificent quote, verner.Kind of a long form "The Constitution is not a suicide pact".

verner

To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means

Thomas Jefferson.

I can't think of a single American president faced with "absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means" who hasn't gone with protecting this Nation and it's citizens.

We're not dealing with abstracts here.

verner

We know who we are as a people Clarice.

And I'm sick of getting lectures in "morality" from the same crew that has never found a totalitarian marxist dictator it hasn't loved.

PD

The WaPo has a long story about how he decided to release the memos and he had a little debate in his office with people on one side arguing against the people on the other and then actually picked a person from each side to argue it before he chose.

Seems consistent with the way he holds summits, bringing people in to hold small-group activities and such.

It appears that we have a Schoolmarm-in-chief.

clarice

I don't know--I think it's a rather good idea. The problem is with the man who judged the debate, not the concept.

verner

PD, He decided to release the memos because that's what George Soros wanted. And according to Byron York, Soros is also why we got the flip-flop on prosecutions this week.

As anybody made a list of people in the Obama Administration who have been hirelings of Soros in one form or another?

He owns the Nation Institute, Media Matters, Human Rights Watch and Moveon.org, right of the top of my head. He has basically bought a political party whole cloth. I don't think that's ever been done in American history.

Fresh Air

If Soros met with an unfortunate accident while walking by a wood chipper it wouldn't keep me up at night. Traitorous bastard.

Fresh Air

Another thing: Soros may have the Mediacrats by the short hairs, but he is not a smart politician, he is not a strategist and he is not someone who is effective at anything except giving away his own money.

Where are the photographs of him with President Kerry? How did that "Betrayus" campaign he put together work out? Following Soros down the path is like vacationing on an island paradise with Ernst Blofeld. Sooner or later the whole thing gets blown to smithereens once the evil plot is unpacked.

PeterUK

Perhaps Obama can legal his way out of this,Sicide bombing in Shia Shrine - Baghdad.

PD

I don't know--I think it's a rather good idea. The problem is with the man who judged the debate, not the concept.

Sure, what I'm reacting to is the way that his leadership style is apparently that of a teacher in front a class, "educating" his charges.

When he may be the least capable person in the room.

Charlie (Colorado)

"So, the question becomes, Why?. Are they communists? What?"

Not consciously. What they are is convinced that their immediate political advantage, including their ability to direct money to their political allies and attack their political enemies, is what's important.

bad

Here is a comment from Tappers post LUN about Obama's decision to release photos of unlawful detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I am finding it sadly ironic, that the CIA which did EVERYTHING possible to undermine the Bush administration is now under attack by Bush' successor. If this isn't a 'be careful what you wish for moment', I don't know what is.

OUCH!!

bad

OOps, LUN to Tapper.

Jane

I am finding it sadly ironic, that the CIA which did EVERYTHING possible to undermine the Bush administration is now under attack by Bush' successor. If this isn't a 'be careful what you wish for moment', I don't know what is.

WOW Bad. Just WOW

Jane

Bad,

Do you think the make-up of the commenters over at Tapper has trended right lately?

bad

Jane, the commenter that posted this is right on. The thread had nearly 700 comments an hour ago but this one was so spost on. I hope people get to read it but ir's less likely with so many comments.

bad

I've noticed that, Jane. Glad I'm not the only one. The resident lefties are less prolific in their posting and they focus on unimportant errors in comments rather than the overall message.

It may be as simple as they only want to operate in an echo chamber. Or maybe Maybee is converting them....

MayBee

Well...now I'm being all suspicious about the warnings of this swine flu outbreak.

I saw how SARS coverage scared the bejeezus out of Americans for no good reason, followed by the odd bird flu panic.
I can't figure out why there is a new flu panic suddenly hitting the WH news.

Charlie (Colorado)

I can't figure out why there is a new flu panic suddenly hitting the WH news.

Well, a real Influenza A pandemic would be kind of scary, although not as bad as 1917. But I'm sure some of you remember Hong Kong 'flu too, and that was fairly impressive, honestly.

I think it's more along the lines of the regular salmonella scares: it's not that it's unusual, as much as that we can tell what's happening. A few hundred people a year died of "food poisoning" and in 1960 it was just part of life. Now, we can sequence a salmonella bug and tell where it came from, and suddenly "food poisoning" isn't a random accident, it's got a history, and people who can be sued.

MayBee

I think it's more along the lines of the regular salmonella scares: it's not that it's unusual, as much as that we can tell what's happening.

But there was a live press conference about this today, and we were assured President Obama is not at risk.
I just find a lot of these stories to be manipulative and panic-inducing. Where a real pandemic would be impressive, is 6 with a fever in California really the time to start the death watch?

clarice

Well, you don't get people to stay tuned with messages like, the country is remarkably healthy today and most of us will live longer, healthier more pleasant lives than our recent ancestors could ever have imagined.

Still going back to salmonella I do think more food outght to be routinely irradiated. It is so widely distributed these days that even one field or processing plants can result in a lot of unnecessary sickness.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame