What's Interesting Is That Begala Is Smart Enough To Know His Argument Is Phony

Paul Begala makes a claim not supported by any of the evidence on offer, but relies on wordplay to claim victory in a dispute with Mark Hemingway of the NRO.  [A noted wordsmith can't spot the fallacy or do the research.  Surprise!]

Begala's claim is that "the United States executed Japanese war criminals for waterboarding".  His source is this Politifact article backing a similar claim by John McCain.  Politifact opens with this quote from McCain, who was expressing his opposition to waterboarding:

"I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," he told reporters at a campaign event.

The slippage is obvious - if war criminals who committed many bad acts including waterboarding were executed, McCain's statement would be accurate but Begala's would not be.

Politfact cites this article by jurist Evan Wallach, which reviews the history of waterboarding in US law, including the war crimes trials following WWII.  There is also a WaPo version and this summary.  Let me just present the start of the summary for a flavor of Begala's problem:

Wallach has found a number of instances in American legal history which document the consistent classification of waterboarding as a technique of torture — which is clearly an unconstitutional practice. Among Wallach’s examples are:

• The prosecution of members of the Japanese military for their treatment of Americans during World War II. Seitara Hata was just one Japanese soldier charged with a war crime for waterboarding; Hatara was sentenced to 25 years hard labor.

"Hard labor"?  Hit me with your best shot, pal!  Did Wallach find anyone that was executed whose main crime was waterboarding? I welcome assistance, but I found no such example in the Wallach paper or the NY Times archives (Trust but verify - I was exhausted but I cannot claim my search was exhaustive). 

Plenty of Japanese war criminals were executed, but plenty of horrific abuses were committed as well.  Just for example, this commission in Java cited the "water cure", electric shock, crushing of fingers, and a "scientifically graduated" method of beating that culminated with a cat-o-nine tails designed with metal flesh-tearing hooks as methods of torture.

You know we worry when our friends on the left send a meme out into the world alone and with no visible means of support.  Well - Begala made a positive claim; he ought to be able to provide a name.  Who did we execute whose primary offense was waterboarding in WWII?

Mr. Wallach will be pleased to hear the answer.  Or, quite possibly, my opthamologist will be pleased to see me again.

Of course, all that said, supporters of the Bush enhanced interrogation program are not exactly presenting a winning argument by advancing the notion that waterboarding is not a capital offense but only merits decades of hard labor.  Still, we are pro-facts, not pro-torture.

MORE:  Mark Hemingway makes some of the points above in his own defense but misses the Wallach articles.

[end of thread]

Comments

[bad]

What's Interesting Is That Begala Is Smart Enough To Know His Argument Is Phony

Really?

[MayBee]

Let's ask Paul Begala about Clinton's extraordinary rendition.

[Captain Hate]

Yeah I'm skeptical too, bad; I've never seen any evidence that there's any functioning grey-matter behind that ginormous forehead.

[bad]

Let's ask Paul Begala about Clinton's extraordinary rendition.

That was GOOD rendition, Maybee, done with pure motives....

[hit and run]

MayBee:
Let's ask Paul Begala about Clinton's extraordinary rendition.

Well, since I posted that on the last thread, let me just punctuate the point -- it wasn't until Gore said "let's go grab...ass" that Clinton gave in and saw the wisdom of renditions.

[Cecil Turner]

Plenty of Japanese war criminals were executed, but plenty of horrific abuses were committed as well.

Ya think?

The extent of the atrocities and the result of the lack of food and medical supplies is exemplified by a comparison of the number of deaths of prisoners of war in the European Theater with the number of deaths in the Pacific Theater. Of United States and United Kingdom forces, 235,473 were taken prisoners by the German and Italian Armies; of these, 9,348, or 4 percent, died in captivity. In the Pacific Theater, 132,134 prisoners were taken by the Japanese from the United States and United Kingdom forces alone, of whom 35,756, or 27 per cent, died in captivity. [emphasis added]

The same link illustrates the difference between the Japanese "water cure" and the namby-pamby US derivative:

The so-called "water treatment" was commonly applied. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process.

Moreover, the standards are different . . . Al Qaeda types are clearly not entitled to POW status and the protections the victims in the above cases were. I also can't find one case where the so-called "water cure" resulted in a conviction by itself. The parallel fails on several levels.

[MayBee]

it wasn't until Gore said "let's go grab...ass" that Clinton gave in and saw the wisdom of renditions.

So it was a matter of marketing to the International Playboy crowd.

[verner]

TM, they need to quit evoking the name of John McCain.

I saw him say on FOX today that he absolutely did not support the prosecution of anyone who was involved in EI.

And if the CIA did what the NVA did to him, do you think that would be the case?

[Po]

Let's argue about minutia rather than the fact that torture is against the law - waterboarding is torture (as is the whole PROGRAM). End of discussion. Delude yourself on other topics or embrace your position and admit that you could care less about someone breaking the law unless it is broken on you. Shallow. Worthless. Weak. AQ wins and you're too stupid to figure it out (hint - the new world order = the US is the USSR now and it aint Obama's doing)

[narciso]

It's Begala in the Huffington Post, that's a special level of fail. Like Nick and Steve MG's pathetic concurrence of a parallel to the Ministries case, which I consider AQ's operations to be a more appropriate comparison. John McCain's unseemly zeal on the subject helped legitimate the radical critique of the ET
method. Too late has he figured out his folly. The Phillipines parallel is interesting for one junior officer was
courtmartialed for it, but most of his superiors were unscathed.

[bad]

Po, that is why I am SOOOOO upset that the president wants to sweep legal repercussions under the rug.

HE IS NOT IN FAVOR OF FOLLOWING THE LAW.

And he was a constitutional law professor.

Absolutely sickening, isn't it?

[clarice]

Now the WH says he wasn't a constitutional law professor or even teaching constitutional law. Why--he's the Scarlet Pimpernel or something.

[bad]

Speaking of John McCain, today he said 911 terrorists came into the US via Canada.

What's with Arizona politicians and Canada?

[bad]

Doesn't that just crack you up, Clarice?

I hope he doesn't claim to be the Scarlet Pimpernel.... I love that book and it would never be the same again.

[Captain Hate]

Why--he's the Scarlet Pimpernel

Two too many syllables.

[Cecil Turner]

. . . waterboarding is torture (as is the whole PROGRAM).

And yet, when I was getting "tortured" at SERE school, no ACLU types got their panties in a wad, jumped all around, and asked for an investigation. Heck, I hadn't even done anything wrong. I wanna know why. (Along with tens of thousands of my closest friends.) Or, maybe, just maybe, the "enhanced interrogation" methods aren't quite torture.

[clarice]

He has the courtly bow and fobbish style down pat though.

[bad]

LALALALALALALALALALALA

I CANT HEAR YOU......

PS The wife thing is aaaallllllll wrong...

[hit and run]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090425/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_napolitano_republican_heat>Well hell, the lefties told me it was Bush's fault?

WASHINGTON – Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano met with the American Legion on Friday to apologize for a right-wing extremism report written by her agency, and the veterans group walked away from the meeting mollified.

Well, let's see, Napolitano steps up and says "the buck stops with..."

Napolitano blamed one of her agency's analysts for prematurely sending out the intelligence assessment to law enforcement, according to Craig Roberts, an American Legion member who attended the meeting. The report says veterans returning from Iraq or Afghanistan could be susceptible to right-wing recruiters or commit lone acts of violence.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/05/obamas-inabilit.html>Just like her boss, it's the damn underlings' fault!!!

Why, I'm beginning to think I can't trust the lefties.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Po, let's argue about the facts then. Waterboarding is not torture. End of discussion.

Now bugger off.

[JoeCitizen]

Hey, if you are willing to settle for 25 years of hard labor for Bush, Cheney, Yoo etc.
I'll be ok with that. Probably Begala too.
Deal?

[Joshua]

Andrew Sullivan, in a post earlier this afternoon under the heading,"When America Executed Waterboarders For War Crimes," writes:
"Paul Begala gets his facts straight"

I suspect that no amount of discussion would ever convince Sullivan of the real truth in this matter. He has a closed mind on the subject...assuming that he still has a "mind."

[Danube of Thought]

Are the any photographs being taken of the aftermath of Mr. Obama's targeted assassination strikes by Predators in Pakistan? Will those photgraphs be published some day? Who in the Obama administration will be prosecuted for murder, a crime for which there is no statute of limitations?

[Danube of Thought]

",,,you could care less about someone breaking the law..."

Lincoln and FDR broke it repeatedly in their quests for victory and yes, I could care less.

[Ignatz]

Not only was no Japanese executed for waterboarding, no Japanese was even convicted only of waterboarding. The guys getting 15 and 25 years were convicted of other offenses as well and as Cecil and I have pointed out time and again what they were doing is NOT what we were doing any more than beating someone unconcious is equivalent to slapping their wrist.

[boris]

Couldn't possibly care less.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Wonder why cap&trade gets all the attention?

Painting roofs white is a cheap way to offset CO2.

Okay, that's apparently been Insta-crashed. When itcomes back, it turns out that merely painting 8000 ft² white will offset one family's CO2.

[bad]

turns out that merely painting 8000 ft² white will offset one family's CO2.

Imagine if Michelle only wears white skirts and pants...

[Mark O]

Objection. The headline lacks foundation.

[hit and run]

Bad:
Imagine if Michelle only wears white skirts and pants...

And wears white sleeves.

[MarkJ]

Hey Po,

The day after we suffer another 9-11, do come back and lecture us on "torture" and "the law."

Here's something to chew on: the day after another 9-11, your so-called arguments and facts about "torture" will all be worse than wrong. Nope, they'll be irrelevant. And you'll have no one but Lord Zero and his Legion of Hope & Change to thank for that.

[verner]

Don't worry about Andrew, eventually he'll read TM;s rebuttal, and then he'll write

"Maguire just doesn't have a great historical mind like my ex Paul Begalla"

Then it will go down his memory...hole.

[bad]

LOL hit... I just realized we've left a great deal of her uncovered.

[Rick Ballard]

"Objection. The headline lacks foundation."

Sustained.

[hit and run]

"What's Interesting Is That Begala Is Phony Enough Not To Know His Argument Isn't Smart"

[Charlie (Colorado)]

DHS has fired the guy who let the "right wing extremists" report through.

No wonder the VFW guy thought Napolitano was sincere.

[Danube of Thought]

What ever happened to ol' MikeS? He told us the Bush people wrote the report. (He hasn't come back since then.)

[SteveMG]

Like Nick and Steve MG's pathetic concurrence of a parallel to the Ministries case,

Nope, I did no such thing.

I'd suggest that if you only want people making statements or expressing views that you agree with 100% then turn off the computer and stay in your room for the remainder of your life.

'Cause the real world isn't always going to be nice to you.

[jimmyk]

"When America Executed Waterboarders For War Crimes"

It would be equally accurate to say

"When America Executed Jaywalkers For War Crimes"

since no doubt some of those executed did in fact jaywalk at some point in their lives.

[Try Hang Gliding]

Let's see. We limited the number dowsings, the number of sessions and, if I'm not mistaken, had a medical team nearby in case something went wrong. Somehow I think the Japanese did things differently.

[Bruce]

We dropped two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If we had lost WWII, is there any doubt those who ordered it would have been executed for the mass murder of 150,000 civilians?

Yet it was still (IMHO) the best choice. 1000's of POW's were dying each day the war went on. 100's of thouands .... maybe millions of allied soldiers would have died invading Japan.

My father was being trained for the invasion of Japan when he got his reprieve.

I believe it was the right choice. But it was certainly 150,000 times more horrific than waterboarding.

[narciso]

You're not as tendentious as Nick, I apologize if I put you in that corner, but reading from this part of the thread:

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/not-a-lawyer-or-even-a-clearthinker/
comments/page/2/#comments

One can't really say you don't have the same argument, that effectively no use of psychological or physical duress can be used
to elicit information from these people.

[Disillusionist]

Bruce - the estimate was that the Allies would suffer 1 million casualties in an invasion of Japan. You have to remember that this was shortly after Okinawa, where in addition to 130,000 Japanese fatalities, somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 Okinawan civilians died during the fighting (there were around 16,000 Allied casualties). Even after Nagasaki, elements of the Japanese military attempted a coup to prevent broadcast of the Emperor's surrender speech. Dropping the bombs saved more Japanese lives than anyone would want to count.

[narciso]

Worse than the firebombing of Tokyo, I would doubt it. Seeing how strong Shinto nationalism was back in that era, it would have been an exceptionally brutal campaign, the Soviets would have moved in to take the Northern section, Hokkaido, and probably part of Honshu. How long would the Allied Govts have held out, probably not much more than a year, Ho Chi Minh and Mao would have moved with greater speed, to seize their
respective countries. Truman might have been forced out of office, and the next President might have been the segregationist
Secretary of State James Byrnes, which might have cast post war race relations much differently

[daddy]

Well, I suppose things could be worse.">http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=18389">worse.

Related story.">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=803">story.

[SteveMG]

One can't really say you don't have the same argument, that effectively no use of psychological or physical duress can be used
to elicit information from these people.

And of course I never said that either.

The worst part, for me, of this very complex matter are the true believers on either side who think we can't do anything to prevent the loss of life and those on the other side who think we can do anything we want for that goal.

Fortunately, the Bush Administration rejected both extreme viewpoints.

And so do I.

[Jane]

turns out that merely painting 8000 ft² white will offset one family's CO2.

Imagine if Michelle only wears white skirts and pants...

Geez Bad, what an image to wake up to. Thanks - not.

[syn]

Perhaps the interrogation solution may be to use American S & M clubs; they already have all the accouterments necessary for torture ie whips, chains, ropes, chairs to tie down people, stuff to hang people from the ceilings, dog collars, black leather masks, battery cable's used to electrocute balls and so forth.

Then tell the Left that like them we do not torture, we're simply giving them the pleasure of an orgasm.

Hey maybe artistic photographers could do an orgasmic series for several high-fashion, glossy magazines to pay the experienced tortures; on the cover of Vogue, it's so Mapplethorpe.

Could even have a Dominatrix Czar with a Harvard Law degree in the White House advising proper methods and whatnot.

[Old Lurker]

Yay! OT personal big news...requiring me to sneak off to post at JOM.

Old Lurker daughter #1 will marry her Marine Intel Officer this afternoon at Washington National Cathedral.

Seeing the Navy and Marines assembling their sword arch at rehearsal last night brought tears to our eyes. The best and brightest of their generation were there for all to see, many arriving from their duty posts in nasty places, where they work to protect us all.

As my digital family, I wanted you to know!

[PeterUK]

""I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," he told reporters at a campaign event"

One tiny little detail is ignored - the Japanese lost!

This is probably a historical first,the victorious side leads itself off in chains

[verner]

Could even have a Dominatrix Czar with a Harvard Law degree in the White House advising proper methods and whatnot.

We've already got one with a Yale degree as Secretary of State.

[centralcal]

Old Lurker: Congratulations on a fine, new son-in-law!

Have a wonderful time at the wedding, Dad!

[Rick Ballard]

OL,

Congratulations and best wishes to the newlyweds.

[verner]

The analogy is totally ludicrous PUK. Besides the obvious fact that Japanese waterboarding looked nothing like the methods the CIA was using.

The POWs were common soldiers who had absolutely NO vital information to offer up. Japanese torture was nothing more than gratuitous sadism. It should not even be considered in the same category.

All waterboarding does is scare the crap out of you for the max 40 seconds that they keep the water on your face. It's an automatic response--your body can't help itself.

There isn't even any pain involved. Look at all the Journos who have had it done. Within a minute, they are up and walking around, and ready for another go! When it's over, it's over. So, the Prolonged word kicks in there--it ain't.

And as others have pointed out, if it was sooo horrible, and life threatening, why did KSM go through 183 pours in a month?

Would they have risked the life of their most high value "detainee" if the process was harming his health, and not working? Especially if, as critics say, regular interrogation methods work, aand they were already getting good intel using them.

I don't think so.

[PeterUK]

Verner,
The bottom line,if you will pardon the expression,is that some journalists get a thrill out of it all.

[kate]

I'm trying to figure out how this will play out.

The left and MSM have forced Obama into this move and will provide cover. The biggest fear for years of the Dem Party was that they would be viewed as weak on national security. They don't seem to have that fear now, in fact, they appear enboldened and powerful.

Right now, the conservatives and Republicans were slow out of the gate on this one, so the left was able to frame the argument to their advantage. Did anyone notice last week how many times the word "torture" appeared on the Yahoo page.

Now, the release of the photos a month out is a way to intimitade Republicans further. If you support the officials who authorized the enhanced interrogation memos, one runs the risk of being labeled pro-torture when the photos run. The left knows that the three top operational planners of 9/11 may not be the most sympathetic victim group, so they are sucessfully morphing various issues together to confuse the public.

I think there needs to be a game changer to turn this into a loss for the international left. And it must be turned into a loss for the left, our nation's security depends on that.

[Rick Ballard]

Turbo's Zombie Stress Test is getting a failing grade from analysts. My bet is that the biggest socialist "partner" bootlickers are so broke that new high speed printing presses had to be ordered.

Zero and Turbo are certainly achieving transparency in their actions. Anyone not owning a guide dog has no problem seeing through them.

[clarice]

"Old Lurker daughter #1 will marry her Marine Intel Officer this afternoon at Washington National Cathedral."

Congratulations! And for those of you living elsewhere today is a dream day in D.C. The skies are clear and sunny. The weather is divine. The azaelas and dogwoods and daffodils are in full bloom and the Cathedral looks like a gorgeous painting in the bright light.

[anduril]

Via Powerline, the Telegraph asks: Barack Obama and the CIA: Why does President Obama hate America so badly?

If al-Qaeda, the Taliban and the rest of the Looney Tunes brigade want to kick America to death, they had better move in quickly and grab a piece of the action before Barack Obama finishes the job himself. Never in the history of the United States has a president worked so actively against the interests of his own people - not even Jimmy Carter.

Obama's problem is that he does not know who the enemy is. To him, the enemy does not squat in caves in Waziristan, clutching automatic weapons and reciting the more militant verses from the Koran: instead, it sits around at tea parties in Kentucky quoting from the US Constitution. Obama is not at war with terrorists, but with his Republican fellow citizens. He has never abandoned the campaign trail.

That is why he opened Pandora's Box by publishing the Justice Department's legal opinions on waterboarding and other hardline interrogation techniques. He cynically subordinated the national interest to his partisan desire to embarrass the Republicans. Then he had to rush to Langley, Virginia to try to reassure a demoralised CIA that had just discovered the President of the United States was an even more formidable foe than al-Qaeda.

[PeterUK]

Congratulations Old Lurker.

[PeterUK]

posted yesterday

[Terry Gain]

Facts

The Bush administration used waterboarding on the top 3 al Qaeda captives who as a matter of law were not entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention.

They did so under very safe conditions with doctors present to ensure no serious harm.

No one sustained any injury or deleterious effect other than the same thing I sustained when Obama was elected: PANIC.

These techniques were used in a war which these captives are waging upon us. They started this war but our leaders have a moral obligation to end it - as soon as possible and with as little loss of life as possible.

Not using waterboarding on these 3 to obtain whatever information they had would have been an irresponsible dereliction of duty.

My Formulation: prisoners should never be gratuitously abused however the rights of innocent people to go about their lives in peace takes priority over the rights of terrorists to be free from discomfort and anxiety.

My conclusion: The world is upside down.

[PeterUK]

Need a new bumpersticker.

"OBAMA - WHOSE SIDE IS HE ON?"

[kate]

Noemi Emery's article in Weekly Standard cheered me up and made me think that hearings may not be a bad thing.

[PeterUK]

Or perhaps,

"OBAMA - WHOSE SIDE YOU ON?"

[clarice]

I agree, Terry--and thank you for your spirited defense of this (our joint) position at PM.

Noemie Emery has also written and beautifully on this issue, making the point Terry did:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/422ggyuo.asp

[syn]

"We've already got one with a Yale degree as Secretary of State."

Yale? That's second tier compared to the experience found at Harvard.

Just listened to a radio commenter who offered a better idea with regard to acceptable interrogation techniques, just use any number of scenarios used on NBC reality show "The Fear Factor"; threaten to stick the enemies heads in bugs, worms or dead fish.

Maybe Diversity really could be the way towards combating the problems facing the nation.

[boris]

Noemie "Telling the Truth"

[clarice]

OT but as the press fans fears about the Mexican flu epidemic, it's good to know that existing treatments for it work:

"GlaxoSmithKline Plc’s flu treatment Relenza and Roche Holding AG’s Tamiflu appear effective against the strains of the virus the CDC has tested, the companies said. Glaxo has “ample supplies” of Relenza, Sarah Alspach, spokeswoman for the London-based drugmaker, said yesterday in a telephone interview. Roche, based in Basel, Switzerland, has a stockpile of 5 million Tamiflu doses ready to deploy if WHO asks, said Terry Hurley, a company spokesman. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aBfUaG5IHbVU&refer=home

[Captain Hate]

Congratulations Old Lurker. The National Cathedral is beautiful; I used to go there annually as part of a choir thing. So beautiful it almost makes me forget how badly my religion has been hijacked by the apostates and catamites.

Speaking of things that don't act with as much integrity as they used to, is this godawful software ever going to erase the linky I put in yesterday?

[SWarren]

Great piece by Porter Goss slamming Dem Congresscritters:

~snip~ I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues. They did not vote to stop authorizing CIA funding. And for those who now reveal filed "memorandums for the record" suggesting concern, real concern should have been expressed immediately -- to the committee chairs, the briefers, the House speaker or minority leader, the CIA director or the president's national security adviser -- and not quietly filed away in case the day came when the political winds shifted. And shifted they have.

LUN

[verner]

Congrats Old Lurker!!!! I hope you all have a "Happily Ever After" day.

That young marine is a lucky man to be marrying in to such a great family.

[SteveMG]

The Bush administration used waterboarding on the top 3 al Qaeda captives who as a matter of law were not entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention.

But they were entitled to protection under US law.

That's why the OLC lawyers were considering and citing US statutes and nowhere (as far as I can tell) international law.

[boris]

"under US law"

Would be very surprised if covert CIA operatives are obliged to obey US laws regarding trespass, theft, and invasion of privacy.

Would be less surprised if CIA had more wiggle room, possibly a reasonable set of rules and guidelines.

[Stephanie]

Congrats to the soon to be newly weds and congrats to the proud families!

[Stephanie]

BTW, we are headed to Jekyll Island next weekend for the State HS Golf Championships... both the Girls and Boys teams won Region!

[boris]

Porter Goss: Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as "waterboarding" were never mentioned.

How plausible is it that Pelosi could forget anything about such an important subject? We all know from the Libby trial that important details, like who's wife works at the CIA, can't possibly be forgotten.

[peter]

I don't think it's appropriate to say congratulations to Old Lurker; implication is he finally found a husband for his daughter. I say best wishes, and God bless them both.

[verner]

SteveMG, I'm getting really sick of this holier than thou legalese. Bybee gave an opinion, you don't like it. Tough.

And don't get on your high horse about the moral sanctity of the law--or I'll start quoting you dozens of legal opinions that were certainly not moral.

Your problem is that you are willing to make innocent citizens cannon fodder for politically motivated moral outrage. You are trying to hold the Bush administration up to a lofty, idealistic level of virtuous perfection that has NEVER existed in any civilized society in human history. Read what Jefferson had to say.

There has NEVER been a president in the history of this nation who risked the safety and security of our citizens on a nebulous interpretation of what the law might say.

And I deeply resent you, and your pathetic "pharisees" brethren in the democrat party telling me that I'm a moral monster because I side with the innocent--and you the A-Q scum.

[Ignatz]

-Why--he's the Scarlet Pimpernel-

I believe it's Scarlet Pumpernickel. Barry is not only a bit Daffy but kind of loony as well.

And congratulations to Old Lurker and your daughter. I'm sure she'll be very happy despite marrying a jarhead rather than a noble airman.

[anduril]

PeterUK posted yesterday.

[boris]

Understand the frustration but SMG is more like Appalled than like Nick.

I wouldn't put SMG anywhere near the double standard that goes "Right wingers must always play by the rules cuz that's what they believe, in but on the sophisticated left we can make it up as we wish because we're smart enough to always know what's best".

There are always going to be those on our side that hold to higher standards and view them as ends rather than means.

Certain means are to be always avoided and other means are to be always prefered. But between the two absolutes are paths that are sometimes necessary.

[Stephanie]

Waxman gets his nostrils plucked...

Waxman: Mr. Gingrich, I’m sure glad you’re not in charge of foreign policy. Do you think the only way to incentivize the country is by offering them more and more carrots? You’ve gotta have some threats, and sometimes you havta say ‘to incentivize you we’re gonna give you some assistance, but there are gonna be some consequences.’

Gingrich: Mr, Chairman, I don’t think of American citizens the way I think of foreign dictators, and I don’t think this Congress should punish the American people. I think this Congress has every right to award the American people, but I don’t think Lincoln’s government of the people, by the people, and for the people should be turned into a government punishing the people and that’s a major difference.

Some days you just gotta love Newt... Waxman will be screaming about the torture of nose hair plucking in 3.2.1....

[Gmax]

Rick

I have some sympathy for Turbo here. He really cant release the results in any meaningful way, for the same reason that the FDIC, OCC and OTS and the NCUA never release the results of their examinations and reviews. It might spark a full scale panic, or a line forming down the street at every single Citicorp branch across the country.

It was destined to disappoint.

And Regions bank is going to be the functional equivalent of the family dog when granny farts in the family room. The dog gets beat with a newspaper.

He is not going to shut down Citicorp and the howling wolves are going to demand blood, so it looks like red state Regions Bank will become the burnt offering here.

[Stephanie]

Palin/Cheney 2012... that should have the dems in a dither... two of the most "heinous" names in the annals of of US politics..

And maybe add a Reagan for SoS just to really get them screaming...

LUN

(Michael, BTW, just so you don't think I'm advocating for another tutu in the WH)

[Danube of Thought]

Congrats, OL--happy day.

Clarice, April was always by far my favorite month in D.C. And the best part for me was the tulips, which I imagine are in profusion at this moment. At its best it is a truly lovely city.

[anduril]

It's really unfortunate that Gingrich has so much baggage.

[dave]

What's Interesting Is That Maguire Isn't Smart Enough To Know His Argument Is Complete and Total Bullshit.

[SteveMG]

SteveMG, I'm getting really sick of this holier than thou legalese.

Gee, I guess you'll just have to visit another blog.

Good luck finding one where all you read are posts by people who agree with you 100% and never challenge your views.

[Danube of Thought]

I whleheartedly endorse what Verner just said so well.

I've probably done far too much of this sort of thing already, but I would invite readers who haven't done so to Google "Camp Doouglas Chicago" and read aboout the depredations routinely inflicted on confederate prisones under Abe Lincoln. And Abe unlwafully suspended habeas corpus (doing so without the requisite act of congress), routinely imprisoned those who expressed anti-war views, and otherwise violated consitutional proscriptions wholesale.

Perhaps if hearings are held someone will advert to these events, and to those of the Roosevelt and Truman administrations during WWII. Ike's biographer Stephen Ambrose describes widespread maltreatment of and brutality toward German POWs in Europe. Can anyone imagine Ike being investigated and threatened with prosecution after the war? Or Ike, as president, investigating his two predecessor administrations for war crimes?

[clarice]

Or Truman for dropping atom bombs on cities,DoT.
Tulips and cherry blossoms have pretty much come and gone already DoT. But everything else is up and very lovely indeed. Just took a short walk thru my heavily treed neighborhood and it is glorious.
Next weekend there is the annual flower show at the Cathedral--always a nice place to get herbs and other annuals.

[Terry Gain]

SMG

In their deranged efforts to protect terrorists from harsh treatment The Obama Administration may be on the verge of trying to criminalize legal opinion which differs from their legal opinion.

If they do, it will be the most dangerous and insidious attack upon the U. S. Constitution since its adoption.

And so much for your Rule of Law.

[MikeS]

On TV I have seen cutting tools that use high pressure water to cut things like metal and fiberglass sheets, so I have no trouble believing that water could be used to torture.

Some people claim that gently splashing or pouring water onto someone’s face can be done in such a way that it constitutes torture. That's a little harder to believe, but I concede that it is possible.

When I was a child, my mother would often rub my face with a damp cloth and sometimes she would soap my hair and then run water on my head and face. I have seen this done to other children and it is obvious from their demeanor that they find it unpleasant. Still I doubt that many would call it torture.

My point is that there are some ways of pouring water onto someone's face that are obviously not considered torture, so if there are other ways that are considered torture there must be a line somewhere in between these ways demarcating where torture begins.

It's clear, reading the 'torture' memos, that those involved with the CIA's interrogation techniques were aware that there was a line that should not be crossed, and they took great care to avoid crossing it.

The argument that lawyers should be be prosecuted for their efforts to ensure interrogators did not cross the line into illegality (torture), makes no sense to me.

[Rick Ballard]

Gmax,

Nobody made Turbo blather about a "stress test". This Dance of the Zombies bit of CYA for Citi's rather obvious state of bankruptcy is, if anything, more transparent than the takeover of ZombieMotors on behalf of the UAW.

Americans have now had six months to come to an understanding of the economic collapse occasioned by the devil's brew of coupling the well intentioned (snicker) MBS with CRA "adjustments" and CDS as the cherry on top. I don't believe that panic is in the cards any more.

Today's Oconomy Factoid:

The number of American's receiving unemployment benefits has increased by 10% (to 6,137,000) in the past month.

[Gmax]

True that. Nobody makes any politician blather, its a genetic trait and one I wish the gene pool could erase.

The same dullards who elected Obama based on Hope and Change, are certainly capable of panic where none need be taken. Hell the semi educated talking heads and scribblers cant seem to understand that Zombiemotors will continue to operate under Bankruptcy court protection and that cars will still be made by factory workers in plants across the country.

Not that it could not happen to a nicer guy, put in charge of the IRS by Obama despite failing to follow the law and pay his own taxes. But I do think this one is a bit of blasting that could be better directed to all of his other idiocies, like the PPIP for instance.

[Danube of Thought]

MikeS, aren't you the guy who told us that it was Bush's DHS that wrote the report that Napolitano is now apologizing for? The one that referred to events of April 4, 2009 in the past tense?

You sticking with that one?

[MikeS]

MikeS, aren't you the guy...?

I don't think so Danube. That's never been my understanding.
On the other hand, on occasion I have said strange and mysterious things. If I did say it, I now officially abjure the remark.

[JM Hanes]

DoT:

I think there was someone else using that moniker too who showed up here at the same time as a couple of other drop-ins, after TM was linked by Instapundit or someone. I was surprised a by the screen name because it really didn't sound like our MikeS, who in addition to being sane, has a great sense of humor, as I recall.

MikeS:

If you end up running into any inexplicably hostile treatment, that will be the reason why.

[Rick Ballard]

There are probably even more than two MikeSs in the blogoverse. The one making the assertions to which DoT refers may well have been an evil doppelganger.

I don't recall the "real" MikeS ever having written anything similar to that to which DoT refers.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Contgrats, OL. I'm sure he's really a lovely guy, being in Intelligence. Even if he is a Marine.