Fox News reads the OLC memos, does some arithmetic, talks to some people, and comes to the same conclusion I reached on April 20. Here is the breaking news from Fox:
The number of times Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded was the focus of major media attention -- and highly misleading.
The New York Times reported last week [link] that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators. The "183 times" was widely circulated by news outlets throughout the world.
It was shocking. And it was highly misleading. The number is a vast inflation, according to information from a U.S. official and the testimony of the terrorists themselves.
As I was saying...
Fox News especially rouses my ire here:
Bloggers [link] who read the memos last week noted that the CIA's math "doesn't add up" -- meaning that the 12 long pours allowed in a day couldn't add up to the 12 minutes mentioned in the memo, and they could barely even guess how the detainees could have been waterboarded an astounding 286 times in one month.
The memos did not note that the sessions would be made up of a number of short pours -- the ones the U.S. official said lasted "a matter of seconds" -- and that created the huge numbers quoted by the New York Times: 183 on Mohamed, 83 on Zubaydah.
Pours, not waterboards.
Fox has reading the wrong blogs. Geez, what kind of a broken down Right Wing Noise Machine are we operating here?
Oh, well - maybe Fox will pick up on the problems in the Ali Soufan story - Mr. Soufan, a former FBI interrogator, wrote in the Times that the Zubaydah developed along traditional lines until the CIA introduced the rough stuff in August 2002. However, the Department of Justice reports that the CIA was in charge of the interrogation almost from the outset and employed tactics that an FBI agent described as "borderline torture" right away; NY Times reporting agrees. Something for Fox to chew on.
PILING ON: Scott Shane of the NY Times nicely illustrated the confusion described by Fox:
Six sessions a day totaling five sessions. Got it.
STILL IRKED: A day may come when Fox News discovers "links", but this is not that day.
Democrats live and die by their seeds of deceit.
Posted by: PMII | April 28, 2009 at 07:55 PM
Well, if it makes you feel any better, there have been stories up all day saying that the swine flu thing may be overblown -- as I was saying days ago, wrote Saturday morning, and got published yesterday.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) | April 28, 2009 at 07:56 PM
Well, Chaco, you did note that Sebelius was a "must have" with a pandemic coming down the pike....
Posted by: bad | April 28, 2009 at 08:16 PM
Great site and I am really pleased to see you have what I am actually looking for here and this post is exactly what I am interested in. I shall be pleased to become a regular visitor
Posted by: runescape gold | April 28, 2009 at 08:31 PM
HIGH FIVE TM!!! Where's your damned Pulitzer.
Posted by: verner | April 28, 2009 at 08:50 PM
runescape, welcome. Fox may not link to TM but I regularly do. Does that count?
Posted by: clarice | April 28, 2009 at 08:55 PM
And to think Emptywheel got name checked in the NYT for her bit of disinformation. Imagine that.
Posted by: MayBee | April 28, 2009 at 08:56 PM
And anyone who would like to see what six waterboardings looks like using NYT/Andrew Sullivan/moonbat math, watch the Christopher Hitchens waterboarding LUN
Six pours in about 15 seconds.
Without the creepy eurotech music in the background, that gave things a rather sleezy S&M feel, I bet Hitchens could have stood being waterboarded a good 20 times.
Posted by: verner | April 28, 2009 at 09:18 PM
"And to think Emptywheel got name checked in the NYT for her bit of disinformation. Imagine that."
Hey, and the NYT archive lasts 4evar. Live with it empty...U B pwned by the blogmaster.
Posted by: verner | April 28, 2009 at 09:21 PM
A flurry of distractions while they take over huge chunks of the country.
The auto industry is already gone. Banks won't be able to resist. Energy?
One major major company I'm quite familar with has set aside special choice parking areas, formerly open to whoever got there first, now only open to hybrids. Anyone else parking there gets a ticket.
EPA fulfills Obama’s promise on coal
Is the healthcare industry still a mere 1/7 of the economy? Yet even with a filibuster-proof majority, they'll take that in a reconciliation bill rather than risk a debate. But hey, why not? No one will even know. It's not like anyone will wonder what happened to the oft-advertized 5-day website transparency before bill signings.Has anyone even tried to rescind the CRA?
People will someday realize that the media was the worst enemy this country has ever had, and that reporters and MSM execs should probably have been targeted for assassination before it was too late.
These are the last gasps of a once-great society that allowed itself to forget what they had and why.
Posted by: Extraneus | April 28, 2009 at 09:46 PM
" ... watch the Christopher Hitchens waterboarding "
What I want to see is the Rosa Brooks waterboarding. Please.
Posted by: Frau Jedöns | April 28, 2009 at 10:00 PM
These are the last gasps of a once-great society that allowed itself to forget what they had and why.
On the topic of "the last gasps of a once-great society":
When the Republican senators on the Senate Banking committee support Ron Sims to hold any government office, we might as will nail the door closed on the the Republican Party and America.
Posted by: pagar | April 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM
TM,
If you want Bill O'Reilly to start reading JOM you are either going to have to start posting stories about Judge's releasing Pedophiles, or better yet, stories of female schoolteachers having sex with underage students, and preferably with linked photo's of the semi-hot School Marm's in bikini's on motorcycles. That's how to get Billy O's attention.
Posted by: daddy | April 28, 2009 at 10:06 PM
Here's a little "moral calculus" that I posted on April 20 that I think bears repeating:
For every 16 people that KSM murdered on 911, he got a shot of water up his nose.
I can live with that.
Posted by: verner | April 28, 2009 at 10:17 PM
That's what I thought. It was about hygiene.
They were just washing his dirty beard.
Posted by: Semanticleo | April 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM
Fox has reading the wrong blogs. Geez, what kind of a broken down Right Wing Noise Machine are we operating here?
Right. When O'Reilly gave Obama a B on the Economy tonight I turned the channel. If I want my intelligence insulted I'll watch left wing channels.
In my mind 5 is so much less than 183 as to make the latter an effinglie.
Posted by: Terry Gain | April 28, 2009 at 10:24 PM
183 shots for terrs on the wall, 183 shots for terrs, tie him down, let him drown, 182 shots for terrs on the wall.
Posted by: matt | April 28, 2009 at 10:34 PM
-Without the creepy eurotech music in the background, that gave things a rather sleezy S&M feel, I bet Hitchens could have stood being waterboarded a good 20 times.-
If it had been a gin-and-tonicboarding he'd still be at it.
Posted by: Ignatz | April 28, 2009 at 10:41 PM
Yes he would, and the dreadful thing is when he came up for air he'd have a perfectly well thought out and beautiful series of things to say.
Niters/
Posted by: clarice | April 28, 2009 at 10:51 PM
-That's what I thought. It was about hygiene.
They were just washing his dirty beard.-
Cleo,
If you don't believe in torture why do you keep posting?
Posted by: Ignatz | April 28, 2009 at 10:54 PM
Send an E-Mail to Scot Shane, email LUN
Posted by: verner | April 28, 2009 at 10:54 PM
TM and JOM is the most dependable source of reality on the internet.
I always read you first when on memeo......, and when you contradict the usual army-ant lefties on the same subject, I am assured by experience that Truth is much closer to what you observe than anywhere else, including FOX.
Posted by: daveinboca | April 28, 2009 at 10:55 PM
If it had been a gin-and-tonicboarding he'd still be at it.
No booze jokes. They're boring.
And although I may not agree with Hitchens over this issue a) at least he had the guts to do it himself and b) at least he comes at his position as one who most passionately defended the Iraq War, and still does.
Hitchens I respect, the rest can kiss my butt.
Posted by: verner | April 28, 2009 at 10:58 PM
People will someday realize that the media was the worst enemy this country has ever had
Amen. Ultimately, it is only through them that all bad political and national security things happen.
Posted by: PaulL | April 28, 2009 at 11:01 PM
here's some torture for IT
PATHETIC PATHETIC PATHETIC
Posted by: verner | April 28, 2009 at 11:04 PM
What's the sound of 183 repetitions of nuance about waterboarding?
ONAMATOPATHETOEIC.
Posted by: lurking | April 28, 2009 at 11:17 PM
"A day may come when Fox News discovers "links", but this is not that day."
Ain't gonna happen anytime soon either, Tom. Fox has been lifting stories from blogs without attribution since Taranto revved up Best of the Web Today
Posted by: JM Hanes | April 28, 2009 at 11:46 PM
Here's the online Merriam-Webster on "drown": "to suffocate by submersion especially in water."
Sorry, Hitch, but no matter how much you disliked it, you weren't being drowned. If you were, you wouldn't be talking about it.
Posted by: Danube of Thought | April 28, 2009 at 11:47 PM
The Republican banner looked worse after Watergate and thanks to Carter we got Reagan. We hopefully will see the emergence of this era new Reagan if the Republican establishment embraces the tea party protesters. Everytime Obama has his press conferences, the republican response should be a Luntz focus group of tea party spokespeople such as the lady from Dallas.
It is funny how the democrats are perceived as better on the economy while their policies are more distructive. In simple terms for the layman, they should show a large pie and a small pie and the two alternatives a somewhat evenly sliced small pie or a much larger pie that is unfortunately not so evenly distributed. Then they should demonstrate that the smaller pie is not so evenly distributed as they might think.
Posted by: rhymin' simon | April 28, 2009 at 11:56 PM
"here's some torture for IT"
Nurse Ratchet is a torture maven.
Elder abuse is her forte.
Posted by: Semanticleo | April 29, 2009 at 12:07 AM
Here is a link to what I see as a mishap on the part of "FOX," so if you'd like to get the full scoop, here's a link to a very short article. http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/showlink.aspx?bookmarkid=6B7G4VUWVQ42&preview=article&linkid=b2d7dddb-a74d-4b6a-be61-87690b45d045&pdaffid=ZVFwBG5jk4Kvl9OaBJc5%2bg%3d%3d
Either way, thanks for your attention,
MediaMentions
Posted by: MediaMentions | April 29, 2009 at 12:35 AM
Drug abuse is cleo's forte.
Posted by: boris | April 29, 2009 at 12:39 AM
Wasn't this wild goose chase of 183 times dreamed up by Emptyhead?
Posted by: Topsecretk9 | April 29, 2009 at 01:29 AM
Of course, Maybee was way ahead.
This empty getting name checked reminds me of 2 things
1. Empty, who was desperate that Armitage was not the talker to Novak (not leaker, since there nothing to leak) clawed at and mocked TM for saying so and even freaked at --was it Greg Sargent?-- for saying so after something Bobby Inman said? - anyway I think it was this and then when it just became clear TM was right and Marcy could no longer deny it, took credit for figuring out it was Armitage in a newspaper interview -- pretty sure that was scenario subject of the interview she stole credit
2. Incompetent misinformation memes are lefty bloggers specialty
Posted by: Topsecretk9 | April 29, 2009 at 01:47 AM
KSM only had to talk in order to escape from the panic of not being able to breathe. His victims had to plunge to their deaths from a skyscraper.
Here's a little note: most of the people that died in the Towers on 911 died of asphixiation in the choking smoke, which is, of course, quite similar to drowning. I once saw a description of the jumpers, who were actually probably fallers: they were caught in the choking smoke and broke windows to try to breathe; they leaned further and further out the windows desperately gasping for air; they were completely panicked and could think of nothing but breathing -- not even the danger of falling; and then, suddenly, the air was clear, and they probably had not even recovered their wits enough to know that they were falling.Posted by: cathyf | April 29, 2009 at 01:49 AM
TSK9:
I think Horton was worse than wrong. He wrote that Bush & Co. were going to be indicted in the Spanish Court before the announcement came out, which meant that he was obviously following the story. And then he wrote that they were going to be indicted AGAIN AFTER news to the contrary had been published.
Posted by: JM Hanes | April 29, 2009 at 02:02 AM
cathyf:
I stumbled on video of Monday's panic (which I had not intended to watch,) and it just made me cry for the horror they must have felt.
Posted by: JM Hanes | April 29, 2009 at 02:12 AM
Well, Chaco, you did note that Sebelius was a "must have" with a pandemic coming down the pike....
Who me?
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) | April 29, 2009 at 02:24 AM
Ya'll should head over to Andrew Malcom's place and help fill in the grades on his Obama report card. He's encouraging comments too, which might be a nice way to reward him for his sanity.
Posted by: JM Hanes | April 29, 2009 at 04:07 AM
thanks for the tip, JMH
Posted by: peter | April 29, 2009 at 07:06 AM
The more I see of Barack Obama, the better I like Bo.
Posted by: kim | April 29, 2009 at 07:24 AM
TM, I know how you feel about Fox and borrowing. Rush Limbaugh once read verbatum from something I wrote on air, and never mentioned the source. Steve Gilbert has told me people did it to him all the time, and I would imagine our prolific genius Clarice has had it happen a time or two as well.
They should not do it, but at least we know our work is getting out there.
Now, let's see if Shane gives us a correction/clarification. Anyone want to take bets?
I hope all of you took the time to use the link abouve and email him.
Posted by: verner | April 29, 2009 at 07:52 AM
Oh, I thought it was spelled Beau :)
Posted by: BR | April 29, 2009 at 07:54 AM
Beautifully put Cathyf.
Posted by: verner | April 29, 2009 at 08:01 AM
No BR, BO as in his initials. He even names the dog after himself.
Posted by: verner | April 29, 2009 at 08:08 AM
overgenerous to me, verner, but I have regularly seen my stuff stolen. Michael Barone and Jim Kelly have always been honorable and cited me when they used my work, One paper which I won't name basically stole an entire piece from me and refashioned it ever so slightly into an editorial. I noticed and ignored it and about a week later the editor wrote Thom Lifson to say what a great article mine had been.
And yet, as I've told Steve, even while commiserating with him--I am more interested in the work getting out than I am in getting the credit.
Posted by: clarice | April 29, 2009 at 08:12 AM
To give you an idea how far this complete lie has traveled, here are the google search results:
Results 1 - 10 of about 2,150,000 for "Waterboarded 183 times".
And the first hit is EMPTY WHEEL.
Posted by: verner | April 29, 2009 at 08:17 AM
Ooops--I meant JACK Kelly. (Credit where credit is due) Now, I better get the coffee I need before I post..
Posted by: clarice | April 29, 2009 at 08:27 AM
There are currently less than 100 responses shown on the survey linked by JH Hanes, above. IMO, there should be millions.
Posted by: pagar | April 29, 2009 at 08:28 AM
The $328,835 NYC fly-by reminded a lot of people that they really don't give a sh*t how many times KSM was "waterboarded." I'd bet the polls would reflect that, too, especially in NYC and NJ.
Posted by: Extraneus | April 29, 2009 at 08:29 AM
:) :) :) So happy you're back.
Just to be sure it's really you, fill in the blank: The F Major ... ?
Posted by: BR | April 29, 2009 at 08:32 AM
Pagar, wait til the astroturfers find out that their president is getting 65% F and Lower than F. Can't have that.
Posted by: verner | April 29, 2009 at 08:37 AM
BR:
:) :) :) So happy you're back.
Not convinced without the trademark
"==================="
Posted by: hit and run | April 29, 2009 at 08:38 AM
Obviously an imposter; where's the double-underlining? And that's a real dog of a joke.
Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 08:40 AM
Uh-hm.
Posted by: BR | April 29, 2009 at 08:41 AM
Good piece on Specter by Pat Toomey today.
Posted by: Extraneus | April 29, 2009 at 08:43 AM
I mean "uh-hm" to Hit and Run :)
The joke has special meaning.
Posted by: BR | April 29, 2009 at 08:43 AM
The poll is now much closer to oursentiment,
but they will astroturf it when they've found out the dear leader doesn't have all the kulaks undying support.It's an interesting detail that the Rasmussen poll has generic Republicans ahead 41/38, I know another fact down the memory hole, like the picture of Jones,Rutherford, and Aaronson,
which survived the IngSoc purge. Orwell references seem particularly apt, although Ayn Rand ones are coming up more and more, since I started reading Atlas Shrugged, n the LUN, much like Dagny Taggart, the Akhanitsa basically surrendered on the stimulus, with future review of the funds
possible.
Posted by: narciso | April 29, 2009 at 09:14 AM
Speaking of not getting credit for one's work and other people copying it: I think I was the first one to criticize Obama.
Posted by: PaulL | April 29, 2009 at 09:34 AM
I think I was the first one to criticize Obama.
There should be a monument put up to the 1st one, just like with Paul Revere, a national hero.
Posted by: pagar | April 29, 2009 at 09:42 AM
The economy of the People's Republic of O is now 12% easier for the (D)irty Socialists to "manage" than it was on election day.
Will Team TurboZero allow Zombiegroup to pay obscene bonuses with our money? I'd like some names. A cross check with political donations is in order.
How much of the "torture the definition of torture" gargle was driven by panic at the WH upon getting a tipoff that Zero's "first 100 days" will be rememberd for a very steep drop in GDP on top of increasing the amount of Treasury debt held by the public by close to 20%?
Posted by: Rick Ballard | April 29, 2009 at 09:54 AM
ION- GDP contracted at 6.1% in the first quarter lead by inventory reductions and contractions in imports and exports. I suppose the "green shoots of recovery" will be found in the modest increase in consumer spending.
I meant to get back to it yesterday on a previous thread but in re: the GM and Chrysler deals on the table-the more I read of them, the less I understand. I suppose it might be that pay-for-player and failed media mougel Rattner is bluffing and is hoping he can bully some of the bondholders into going along (sort of like the TARP-Treasury-GMAC deal that TM had a thread on a while back). I just don't see how any GM or Chyrsler bondholder with a fiduciary duty could take the terms on offer. I'd also be curious how it would be even legal for the Treasury Department to be using their powers by virtue of TARP to bully TARP recipients into taking it (that would seem like an area that the Inspector General might want to look at).
Posted by: RichatUF | April 29, 2009 at 10:05 AM
Another first.
Clarice Feldman at the opening of her Young Pirate's Sanctuary.
Posted by: PeterUK | April 29, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Where's Elliott?
He needs to help POTUS with his http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/3484868454/>putting stance. And if Elliott isn't around, let me drop a hint about what I think Obama needs to do: Larry Craig.
Oh, and yeah, via Tapper on twitter, The White House has an official http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/>flickr photostream.
Photoshoppers of the world, rejoice!
Posted by: hit and run | April 29, 2009 at 10:16 AM
Rich,
The statement and action by the California Public Employees Retirement System (which has lost a tremendous amount since becoming a political organ) re BAC has to be read in the context of the TurboZero attempt to enlist BAC as a good fascist "partner".
That drop in imports means harder times ahead for China's slave economy. I wonder if they'll beat us in getting rid of the commies running the economy off a cliff?
Posted by: Rick Ballard | April 29, 2009 at 10:19 AM
I'd also be curious how it would be even legal for the Treasury Department to be using their powers by virtue of TARP to bully TARP recipients into taking it (that would seem like an area that the Inspector General might want to look at).
Posted by: RichatUF | April 29, 2009 at 10:05 AM
The real problem is that this use of TARP power is just the beginning of the conflict of interest the government is stepping into. Once the US Government because the majority shareholder in GM, the US Government will be in direct competition with both privately held companies and other government owned companies. After using the power of the state (via TARP) to achieve control, how can we be sure they won't use the power of the state to regulate and inform to shift the market to their own favor. What do you think will happen when Government mandated safty tests show Fords are safer the GM products?
Will the Government step in to ensure that the tests are "run properly" to produce the results the Government wants?
Or will the test perameters simply be redone to focus on GM vehile design principles, thus making GM cars the safest by default?
Posted by: Ranger | April 29, 2009 at 10:19 AM
The economy is tanking,there is a swine flu pandemic,America is involved in two wars,there has been unauthorised jet joyriding and Obama is on the putting green?
Posted by: PeterUK | April 29, 2009 at 10:21 AM
"he economy is tanking,there is a swine flu pandemic,America is involved in two wars,there has been unauthorised jet joyriding and Obama is on the putting green?"
Actually PUK, I'd much rather have him on the putting green than actually doing any thing. Safer that way.
Posted by: verner | April 29, 2009 at 10:29 AM
"The economy is tanking,there is a swine flu pandemic,America is involved in two wars,there has been unauthorised jet joyriding and Obama is on the putting green ..."
Car 54 where are you ?
Posted by: boris | April 29, 2009 at 10:30 AM
Just the tax, M'am.
Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Verner,
Yes much safer on the putting green,but imagine if that had been George Bush.
Posted by: PeterUK | April 29, 2009 at 10:35 AM
Rich, Rick and Ranger are onto the mess of conflicts in these auto deals. Rich's reference to fiduciary duties should really be causing heartburn with trustees, fund managers, and the like. Even TARP banks voting these bonds are voting some that might be owned by the banks, but I am certain that many of those are actually in trusts managed by the banks. MIght be some very interesting legal fallout down the road for the insurance carriers of some managers.
The most troubling aspect of this is how damn fast they have moved to use these levers of control on formerly private enterprise, and what that portends for the future.
Note the dems' agreement to use the 51% budget recon route for cramming universal health care onto the system.
Good call on your index funds, Rick.
Posted by: Old Lurker | April 29, 2009 at 10:35 AM
OL,
"The most troubling aspect of this is how damn fast they have moved to use these levers of control on formerly private enterprise, and what that portends for the future."
You know what it portends for the future,there are examples all over the world.Best trying to escape to Cuba now.
Posted by: PeterUK | April 29, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Read in a Forex article on U.S. GDP this morning that something like 70% of U.S. GDP is consumption spending.
This thing has a looonnnngggg way it can go down. A very long way. And the Barack Hussein administration surely isn't doing anything to help it recover.
Posted by: Pofarmer | April 29, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Don't carjack my red Pontiac.
Holman Jenkins in the WaJo about how government and the UAW have ruined the US owned domestic auto manufacturing industry over the last quarter century.
The only good thing about how fast they've moved in the fascist direction is that they are dropping us into a boiling pot, rather than turning the heat up slowly. My brother used to say that crabs commit suicide by not struggling hard enough to get out of the water. Well, jump, people, jump.
Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Right, PoF. Does anyone here know anyone who is spending like last year? Credit loosening may not help, because no one is asking for it.
The image I like is Obama's desperate attempt to re-inflate the bubble. It's a popped balloon, honey. Give it up and lower taxes, and hunker down like it is 2003. Leave health care, energy, the autos and the banks alone. It's your only chance really. Recreate the good old days of George Bush's Administration.
Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Heh, Specter thought he was a rat leaving a sinking ship. Instead, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire. Pennsylvania Democrats are not going to get a fever for him, and the Republicans are going to be white hot. What a betrayal.
Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 10:50 AM
From The Hill:
Uh, right.
Posted by: anduril | April 29, 2009 at 10:56 AM
Posted by: Sue | April 29, 2009 at 10:56 AM
Shoot, does it larwyn the thread when you don't close a blockquote?
Posted by: Sue | April 29, 2009 at 10:56 AM
Nope.
And does Tierney want us to trot out the memo written by a democrat that instructed members of the intelligence committee to do just that? Talk about lines...
Posted by: Sue | April 29, 2009 at 10:58 AM
::Sue::!
Posted by: smirking | April 29, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Dick Morris (linked at RCP) analyzes the poll numbers and concludes:
Posted by: anduril | April 29, 2009 at 10:59 AM
The image I like is Obama's desperate attempt to re-inflate the bubble. It's a popped balloon, honey. Give it up and lower taxes, and hunker down like it is 2003. Leave health care, energy, the autos and the banks alone. It's your only chance really. Recreate the good old days of George Bush's Administration.
Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Well, Obama created this dilema for himself. He campaigned specificly against the very behaviors he now needs to save his presidency.
"We can't just be maxing out our credit cards"
Ok, fine, I actually agree with that. But, that means we have to pay off debt and start saving again. And because people are doing that, consuption is dropping, and the economy is shriking.
Posted by: Ranger | April 29, 2009 at 11:01 AM
I'm sure you meant 'the economy is shrieking', right, Ranger?
Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Peter, you meant that metaphorically right, there is no place left to go, if the 'last best hope' descends into the sludge of the rest of the world. Right, the Democrats don't care about politicization of intelligence, like Church and Turner and Rockefeller didn't lead to the Ayatollah and the Sandinistas, or Torricelli, didn't leave us blind in the 90s (Interestingly in one of Weisman's books, he references that among the CIA bases cut in the pre 9/11 period was Hamburg)
Posted by: narciso | April 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Very interesting article by Amitai Etzioni: The Mother of All Deals
Posted by: anduril | April 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Rick-
Not surprising. When "Change to Win Investment Group" started making noise a couple of weeks ago, I figured that the pension funds would be next in going after Ken Lewis and BAC. The "clue" is the "Change to Win" moniker, and yep, it leads back to Obama's muscle in the SEIU and AFSME (among about a baker's dozen of unions).
Ever since I read this piece (and I've linked to it a few times), I've been curious of the collusion among union bosses and union fund managers and wondered if the same sorts of rules applied to them as they apply to other types of fund managers. What better way to get inside information from a company than from the line employees who could then sabotage the company from the inside (a bit like point shaving in sports)?
A few years back there was this odd wild cat strike at Jet Blue (bags were put on the wrong aircraft, work slow downs causing massive delays, etc) which crushed the share price and cleaned out the executive suite. Never did research it enough to get a picture of the options action on the company at the time, but I'm pretty sure if a fund manager knew by way of a union boss that something was going to happen, he could have set himself up to make a substantial profit.YMMV.
Posted by: RichatUF | April 29, 2009 at 11:08 AM
PUK, we are blessed with your attendance at JOM, and we know you are living our future. HOW we can ignore your example is beyond me.
I loved Andrew Llyod Weber's editorial the other day re your latest tax the producers until they move actions.
Hmmm. Cuba might be a play, you are right...wonder if we can buy up old private property reclamation rights from the old property owners for .01/$ ?
Posted by: Old Lurker | April 29, 2009 at 11:09 AM
lurking, you are very, very funny. So glad you are here in the flesh, so to speak...
Posted by: bad | April 29, 2009 at 11:09 AM
Nice picture: The Big Tree
Posted by: anduril | April 29, 2009 at 11:10 AM
In addition to the Peoples Republic of 0's economy swirling down the toilet at a 6.1% GDP contraction, the economic genius of Zero based his rosy deficit projection on a fantasy GDP growth of 3.2% for 2010. Oh, and on Cap and Tax. Neither are going to happen. This will be fascinating to watch, in a rattlesnake biting your ankle sort of way.
Posted by: Bill in AZ | April 29, 2009 at 11:17 AM
If anyone else here is on Twitter,
@markknoller is another good WH reporter to follow. He doesn't interact in the same way Tapper does, but he has indirectly answered two questions for me this morning.
Posted by: MayBee | April 29, 2009 at 11:20 AM
Goldman Sachs Hires Barney Frank Staffer To Be Its Lobbyist
Sorry, America, We're Too Corrupt To Fix The Financial System
Two posts at Clusterstock. Neither directly mentions the other.
Posted by: anduril | April 29, 2009 at 11:22 AM
anduril, was he a staffer, or a "staffer"...
Posted by: bad | April 29, 2009 at 11:27 AM
PUK, It is an exceptionally strong corset relying on some fascinating new nano-fabric..
Posted by: clarice | April 29, 2009 at 11:32 AM
-Rich's reference to fiduciary duties should really be causing heartburn with trustees, fund managers, and the like.-
So how are unfunded pensions and health care benefits treated in bankruptcy in relation to debtholders?
GM apparently has around $20B in unfunded pension liabilites of which about $4B would be covered by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. Chrysler $9B and $2B respectively.
If, in practice, unfunded pension liabilities are superior to unsecured debt in BK then perhaps these deals aren't as bad as they appear at first glance.
I tried, admittedly not too hard, to decipher what 507 of the bankruptcy code said but my eyes glazed over.
Posted by: Ignatz | April 29, 2009 at 11:32 AM
OL.
The tax hike to 50% high earners with an income above £150,000 is window dressing for the class warriors.Whilst that kind of income is "well off" it isn't rich, taking into consideration house prices.
The tax will no affect the rich but it will affect,the medical profession,IT,accountants,small businesses,entertainers,restaurateurs,architects , designers and other professions.
There will then be a knock on through the service industries as the 50% ers retrench.Little Tristram's music lessons will go,his sister Charlotte will lose her dancing lessons.The hairdresser and the nail boutique will close down,that nice little bistro will become a charity shop.The last of the English pubs will go thanks to this android with the faulty chip.
Posted by: PeterUK | April 29, 2009 at 11:33 AM
Bill,
The GDP has actually contracted by slightly more than 12% over the fiscal YTD. We're actually two quarters into the (D)irty Socialist disaster.
It's interesting to note the preponderance of "green shoot" dreck appearing in the Mediacrat business press. "Declining inventories set the stage" garbage would be true if the productive consumer were not committed to mattress stuffing rather than satisfying wants.
Team TurboZero is not eliciting anything resembling trust among the productive who understand the future as envisioned by the (D)irty Socialists. Why should they offer their custom to the fascist bootlickers rattling their begging cups and signing up to become "partners" in the death of capitalism?
Posted by: Rick Ballard | April 29, 2009 at 11:35 AM
bad, the question is, does he get a corner office or just a corner closet?
Posted by: anduril | April 29, 2009 at 11:36 AM