Why Are They Telling Me What I Was Telling You, Fox News Edition

Fox News reads the OLC memos, does some arithmetic, talks to some people, and comes to the same conclusion I reached on April 20.  Here is the breaking news from Fox:

Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

The number of times Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded was the focus of major media attention  -- and highly misleading.

The New York Times reported last week [link] that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators. The "183 times" was widely circulated by news outlets throughout the world.

It was shocking. And it was highly misleading. The number is a vast inflation, according to information from a U.S. official and the testimony of the terrorists themselves.

A U.S. official with knowledge of the interrogation program told FOX News that the much-cited figure represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on the terror suspect.  According to a 2007 Red Cross report, he was subjected a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

As I was saying...

As background, the New Yorker reported that KSM told the Red Cross he had been waterboarded five times.  If that figure is accurate, that is an average of about 36 applications per session, which could easily fit within the parameters noted above.

Fox News especially rouses my ire here:

Bloggers [link] who read the memos last week noted that the CIA's math "doesn't add up" -- meaning that the 12 long pours allowed in a day couldn't add up to the 12 minutes mentioned in the memo, and they could barely even guess how the detainees could have been waterboarded an astounding 286 times in one month.

The memos did not note that the sessions would be made up of a number of short pours -- the ones the U.S. official said lasted "a matter of seconds" -- and that created the huge numbers quoted by the New York Times: 183 on Mohamed, 83 on Zubaydah.

Pours, not waterboards.

Fox has reading the wrong blogs.  Geez, what kind of a broken down Right Wing Noise Machine are we operating here? 

Oh, well - maybe Fox will pick up on the problems in the Ali Soufan story - Mr. Soufan, a former FBI interrogator, wrote in the Times that the Zubaydah developed along traditional lines until the CIA introduced the rough stuff in August 2002.  However, the Department of Justice reports that the CIA was in charge of the interrogation almost from the outset and employed tactics that an FBI agent described as "borderline torture" right away; NY Times reporting agrees.  Something for Fox to chew on.

PILING ON:  Scott Shane of the NY Times nicely illustrated the confusion described by Fox:

But the same memorandum reveals in a footnote that Mr. Mohammed, captured on March 1, 2003, was waterboarded 183 times that month. That striking number, which would average out to six waterboardings a day, suggests that interrogators did not try a traditional, rapport-building approach for long before escalating to their most extreme tool.

Six sessions a day totaling five sessions.  Got it.

STILL IRKED:  A day may come when Fox News discovers "links", but this is not that day.

Comments

[PMII]

Democrats live and die by their seeds of deceit.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, there have been stories up all day saying that the swine flu thing may be overblown -- as I was saying days ago, wrote Saturday morning, and got published yesterday.

[bad]

Well, Chaco, you did note that Sebelius was a "must have" with a pandemic coming down the pike....

[runescape gold]

Great site and I am really pleased to see you have what I am actually looking for here and this post is exactly what I am interested in. I shall be pleased to become a regular visitor

[verner]

HIGH FIVE TM!!! Where's your damned Pulitzer.

[clarice]

runescape, welcome. Fox may not link to TM but I regularly do. Does that count?

[MayBee]

And to think Emptywheel got name checked in the NYT for her bit of disinformation. Imagine that.

[verner]

And anyone who would like to see what six waterboardings looks like using NYT/Andrew Sullivan/moonbat math, watch the Christopher Hitchens waterboarding LUN

Six pours in about 15 seconds.

Without the creepy eurotech music in the background, that gave things a rather sleezy S&M feel, I bet Hitchens could have stood being waterboarded a good 20 times.

[verner]

"And to think Emptywheel got name checked in the NYT for her bit of disinformation. Imagine that."

Hey, and the NYT archive lasts 4evar. Live with it empty...U B pwned by the blogmaster.

[Extraneus]

A flurry of distractions while they take over huge chunks of the country.

The auto industry is already gone. Banks won't be able to resist. Energy?

One major major company I'm quite familar with has set aside special choice parking areas, formerly open to whoever got there first, now only open to hybrids. Anyone else parking there gets a ticket.

EPA fulfills Obama’s promise on coal

“I don’t think anyone ever imagined that the new team at EPA would seem to have such little regard for due process or basic notions of fairness,” Holmstead said. “Everyone understands that a new Administration has discretion to change rules and policies prospectively. But I’ve never seen any Administration try to change policies and rules retroactively.”

Is the healthcare industry still a mere 1/7 of the economy? Yet even with a filibuster-proof majority, they'll take that in a reconciliation bill rather than risk a debate. But hey, why not? No one will even know. It's not like anyone will wonder what happened to the oft-advertized 5-day website transparency before bill signings.

Has anyone even tried to rescind the CRA?

People will someday realize that the media was the worst enemy this country has ever had, and that reporters and MSM execs should probably have been targeted for assassination before it was too late.

These are the last gasps of a once-great society that allowed itself to forget what they had and why.

[Frau Jedöns]

" ... watch the Christopher Hitchens waterboarding "

What I want to see is the Rosa Brooks waterboarding. Please.

[pagar]

These are the last gasps of a once-great society that allowed itself to forget what they had and why.

On the topic of "the last gasps of a once-great society":

Ron Sims, liar

And ask all the members of the Senate Banking committee who unanimously supported him today what exactly they have against public disclosure laws and ethics.

When the Republican senators on the Senate Banking committee support Ron Sims to hold any government office, we might as will nail the door closed on the the Republican Party and America.

[daddy]

TM,

If you want Bill O'Reilly to start reading JOM you are either going to have to start posting stories about Judge's releasing Pedophiles, or better yet, stories of female schoolteachers having sex with underage students, and preferably with linked photo's of the semi-hot School Marm's in bikini's on motorcycles. That's how to get Billy O's attention.

[verner]

Here's a little "moral calculus" that I posted on April 20 that I think bears repeating:

For every 16 people that KSM murdered on 911, he got a shot of water up his nose.

I can live with that.

[Semanticleo]

That's what I thought. It was about hygiene.

They were just washing his dirty beard.

[Terry Gain]

Fox has reading the wrong blogs. Geez, what kind of a broken down Right Wing Noise Machine are we operating here?

Right. When O'Reilly gave Obama a B on the Economy tonight I turned the channel. If I want my intelligence insulted I'll watch left wing channels.

In my mind 5 is so much less than 183 as to make the latter an effinglie.

[matt]

183 shots for terrs on the wall, 183 shots for terrs, tie him down, let him drown, 182 shots for terrs on the wall.

[Ignatz]

-Without the creepy eurotech music in the background, that gave things a rather sleezy S&M feel, I bet Hitchens could have stood being waterboarded a good 20 times.-

If it had been a gin-and-tonicboarding he'd still be at it.

[clarice]

Yes he would, and the dreadful thing is when he came up for air he'd have a perfectly well thought out and beautiful series of things to say.

Niters/

[Ignatz]

-That's what I thought. It was about hygiene.

They were just washing his dirty beard.-

Cleo,

If you don't believe in torture why do you keep posting?

[verner]

Send an E-Mail to Scot Shane, email LUN

[daveinboca]

TM and JOM is the most dependable source of reality on the internet.

I always read you first when on memeo......, and when you contradict the usual army-ant lefties on the same subject, I am assured by experience that Truth is much closer to what you observe than anywhere else, including FOX.

[verner]

If it had been a gin-and-tonicboarding he'd still be at it.

No booze jokes. They're boring.

And although I may not agree with Hitchens over this issue a) at least he had the guts to do it himself and b) at least he comes at his position as one who most passionately defended the Iraq War, and still does.

Hitchens I respect, the rest can kiss my butt.

[PaulL]

People will someday realize that the media was the worst enemy this country has ever had

Amen. Ultimately, it is only through them that all bad political and national security things happen.

[verner]

here's some torture for IT

PATHETIC PATHETIC PATHETIC

[lurking]

What's the sound of 183 repetitions of nuance about waterboarding?

ONAMATOPATHETOEIC.

[JM Hanes]

"A day may come when Fox News discovers "links", but this is not that day."

Ain't gonna happen anytime soon either, Tom. Fox has been lifting stories from blogs without attribution since Taranto revved up Best of the Web Today

[Danube of Thought]

Here's the online Merriam-Webster on "drown": "to suffocate by submersion especially in water."

Sorry, Hitch, but no matter how much you disliked it, you weren't being drowned. If you were, you wouldn't be talking about it.

[rhymin' simon]

The Republican banner looked worse after Watergate and thanks to Carter we got Reagan. We hopefully will see the emergence of this era new Reagan if the Republican establishment embraces the tea party protesters. Everytime Obama has his press conferences, the republican response should be a Luntz focus group of tea party spokespeople such as the lady from Dallas.

It is funny how the democrats are perceived as better on the economy while their policies are more distructive. In simple terms for the layman, they should show a large pie and a small pie and the two alternatives a somewhat evenly sliced small pie or a much larger pie that is unfortunately not so evenly distributed. Then they should demonstrate that the smaller pie is not so evenly distributed as they might think.

[Semanticleo]

"here's some torture for IT"

Nurse Ratchet is a torture maven.

Elder abuse is her forte.

[MediaMentions]

Here is a link to what I see as a mishap on the part of "FOX," so if you'd like to get the full scoop, here's a link to a very short article. http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/showlink.aspx?bookmarkid=6B7G4VUWVQ42&preview=article&linkid=b2d7dddb-a74d-4b6a-be61-87690b45d045&pdaffid=ZVFwBG5jk4Kvl9OaBJc5%2bg%3d%3d

Either way, thanks for your attention,
MediaMentions

[boris]

Drug abuse is cleo's forte.

[Topsecretk9]

Wasn't this wild goose chase of 183 times dreamed up by Emptyhead?

[Topsecretk9]

And to think Emptywheel got name checked in the NYT for her bit of disinformation. Imagine that.

Posted by: MayBee | April 28, 2009 at 08:56 PM

Of course, Maybee was way ahead.

This empty getting name checked reminds me of 2 things

1. Empty, who was desperate that Armitage was not the talker to Novak (not leaker, since there nothing to leak) clawed at and mocked TM for saying so and even freaked at --was it Greg Sargent?-- for saying so after something Bobby Inman said? - anyway I think it was this and then when it just became clear TM was right and Marcy could no longer deny it, took credit for figuring out it was Armitage in a newspaper interview -- pretty sure that was scenario subject of the interview she stole credit

2. Incompetent misinformation memes are lefty bloggers specialty

the “reporting” by Scott Horton of the Daily Beast. On April 13, 2009, in a blog entry titled “The Bush Six to Be Indicted,” Horton wrote:....This turned out to be totally false. Today’s El País, Spain’s most important newspaper, reported that the Spanish prosecutors had decided exactly the opposite of what Horton claimed. The headline was this...

Despite the fact that Horton was wrong, and probably lying, thousands of news sources picked it up as authoritative (including NPR) and, in the pattern that has become so familiar in recent years, the “fact,” though false, became true through repetition.

But the ultimate truth of these allegations doesn’t matter to those who make them, any more than the truth mattered for Joe McCarthy 60 years ago. Horton, Sands, Mayer, and the rest have succeeded in hurting their targets, even if the case is now deemed “fraudulent” by Spain’s chief prosecutor. It’s worth it for them, you see, because the number of people who will find out the truth is so much smaller than the number of people who heard and believed the lies. And in the process they get to become more famous. The Internet often helps the truth come to light. But sometimes, the truth gets submerged beneath a mountain of viral falsehoods.

[cathyf]

Here's the online Merriam-Webster on "drown": "to suffocate by submersion especially in water."

Here's a little note: most of the people that died in the Towers on 911 died of asphixiation in the choking smoke, which is, of course, quite similar to drowning. I once saw a description of the jumpers, who were actually probably fallers: they were caught in the choking smoke and broke windows to try to breathe; they leaned further and further out the windows desperately gasping for air; they were completely panicked and could think of nothing but breathing -- not even the danger of falling; and then, suddenly, the air was clear, and they probably had not even recovered their wits enough to know that they were falling.

KSM only had to talk in order to escape from the panic of not being able to breathe. His victims had to plunge to their deaths from a skyscraper.

[JM Hanes]

TSK9:

I think Horton was worse than wrong. He wrote that Bush & Co. were going to be indicted in the Spanish Court before the announcement came out, which meant that he was obviously following the story. And then he wrote that they were going to be indicted AGAIN AFTER news to the contrary had been published.

[JM Hanes]

cathyf:

I stumbled on video of Monday's panic (which I had not intended to watch,) and it just made me cry for the horror they must have felt.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Well, Chaco, you did note that Sebelius was a "must have" with a pandemic coming down the pike....

Who me?

[JM Hanes]

Ya'll should head over to Andrew Malcom's place and help fill in the grades on his Obama report card. He's encouraging comments too, which might be a nice way to reward him for his sanity.

[peter]

thanks for the tip, JMH

[kim]

The more I see of Barack Obama, the better I like Bo.

[verner]

TM, I know how you feel about Fox and borrowing. Rush Limbaugh once read verbatum from something I wrote on air, and never mentioned the source. Steve Gilbert has told me people did it to him all the time, and I would imagine our prolific genius Clarice has had it happen a time or two as well.

They should not do it, but at least we know our work is getting out there.

Now, let's see if Shane gives us a correction/clarification. Anyone want to take bets?

I hope all of you took the time to use the link abouve and email him.

[BR]

Oh, I thought it was spelled Beau :)

[verner]

Beautifully put Cathyf.

[verner]

No BR, BO as in his initials. He even names the dog after himself.

[clarice]

overgenerous to me, verner, but I have regularly seen my stuff stolen. Michael Barone and Jim Kelly have always been honorable and cited me when they used my work, One paper which I won't name basically stole an entire piece from me and refashioned it ever so slightly into an editorial. I noticed and ignored it and about a week later the editor wrote Thom Lifson to say what a great article mine had been.

And yet, as I've told Steve, even while commiserating with him--I am more interested in the work getting out than I am in getting the credit.

[verner]

To give you an idea how far this complete lie has traveled, here are the google search results:

Results 1 - 10 of about 2,150,000 for "Waterboarded 183 times".

And the first hit is EMPTY WHEEL.

[clarice]

Ooops--I meant JACK Kelly. (Credit where credit is due) Now, I better get the coffee I need before I post..

[pagar]

There are currently less than 100 responses shown on the survey linked by JH Hanes, above. IMO, there should be millions.

[Extraneus]

The $328,835 NYC fly-by reminded a lot of people that they really don't give a sh*t how many times KSM was "waterboarded." I'd bet the polls would reflect that, too, especially in NYC and NJ.

[BR]

:) :) :) So happy you're back.

Just to be sure it's really you, fill in the blank: The F Major ... ?

[verner]

Pagar, wait til the astroturfers find out that their president is getting 65% F and Lower than F. Can't have that.

[hit and run]

BR:
:) :) :) So happy you're back.

Not convinced without the trademark

"==================="

[lurking]

Obviously an imposter; where's the double-underlining? And that's a real dog of a joke.

[BR]

Uh-hm.

[Extraneus]

Good piece on Specter by Pat Toomey today.

[BR]

I mean "uh-hm" to Hit and Run :)
The joke has special meaning.

[narciso]

The poll is now much closer to oursentiment,
but they will astroturf it when they've found out the dear leader doesn't have all the kulaks undying support.It's an interesting detail that the Rasmussen poll has generic Republicans ahead 41/38, I know another fact down the memory hole, like the picture of Jones,Rutherford, and Aaronson,
which survived the IngSoc purge. Orwell references seem particularly apt, although Ayn Rand ones are coming up more and more, since I started reading Atlas Shrugged, n the LUN, much like Dagny Taggart, the Akhanitsa basically surrendered on the stimulus, with future review of the funds
possible.

[PaulL]

Speaking of not getting credit for one's work and other people copying it: I think I was the first one to criticize Obama.

[pagar]

I think I was the first one to criticize Obama.

There should be a monument put up to the 1st one, just like with Paul Revere, a national hero.

[Rick Ballard]

The economy of the People's Republic of O is now 12% easier for the (D)irty Socialists to "manage" than it was on election day.

Will Team TurboZero allow Zombiegroup to pay obscene bonuses with our money? I'd like some names. A cross check with political donations is in order.

How much of the "torture the definition of torture" gargle was driven by panic at the WH upon getting a tipoff that Zero's "first 100 days" will be rememberd for a very steep drop in GDP on top of increasing the amount of Treasury debt held by the public by close to 20%?

[RichatUF]

ION- GDP contracted at 6.1% in the first quarter lead by inventory reductions and contractions in imports and exports. I suppose the "green shoots of recovery" will be found in the modest increase in consumer spending.

I meant to get back to it yesterday on a previous thread but in re: the GM and Chrysler deals on the table-the more I read of them, the less I understand. I suppose it might be that pay-for-player and failed media mougel Rattner is bluffing and is hoping he can bully some of the bondholders into going along (sort of like the TARP-Treasury-GMAC deal that TM had a thread on a while back). I just don't see how any GM or Chyrsler bondholder with a fiduciary duty could take the terms on offer. I'd also be curious how it would be even legal for the Treasury Department to be using their powers by virtue of TARP to bully TARP recipients into taking it (that would seem like an area that the Inspector General might want to look at).

[PeterUK]

Another first.
Clarice Feldman at the opening of her Young Pirate's Sanctuary.

[hit and run]

Where's Elliott?

He needs to help POTUS with his http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/3484868454/>putting stance. And if Elliott isn't around, let me drop a hint about what I think Obama needs to do: Larry Craig.

Oh, and yeah, via Tapper on twitter, The White House has an official http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/>flickr photostream.

Photoshoppers of the world, rejoice!

[Rick Ballard]

Rich,

The statement and action by the California Public Employees Retirement System (which has lost a tremendous amount since becoming a political organ) re BAC has to be read in the context of the TurboZero attempt to enlist BAC as a good fascist "partner".

That drop in imports means harder times ahead for China's slave economy. I wonder if they'll beat us in getting rid of the commies running the economy off a cliff?

[Ranger]

I'd also be curious how it would be even legal for the Treasury Department to be using their powers by virtue of TARP to bully TARP recipients into taking it (that would seem like an area that the Inspector General might want to look at).

Posted by: RichatUF | April 29, 2009 at 10:05 AM

The real problem is that this use of TARP power is just the beginning of the conflict of interest the government is stepping into. Once the US Government because the majority shareholder in GM, the US Government will be in direct competition with both privately held companies and other government owned companies. After using the power of the state (via TARP) to achieve control, how can we be sure they won't use the power of the state to regulate and inform to shift the market to their own favor. What do you think will happen when Government mandated safty tests show Fords are safer the GM products?

Will the Government step in to ensure that the tests are "run properly" to produce the results the Government wants?

Or will the test perameters simply be redone to focus on GM vehile design principles, thus making GM cars the safest by default?

[PeterUK]

The economy is tanking,there is a swine flu pandemic,America is involved in two wars,there has been unauthorised jet joyriding and Obama is on the putting green?

[verner]

"he economy is tanking,there is a swine flu pandemic,America is involved in two wars,there has been unauthorised jet joyriding and Obama is on the putting green?"

Actually PUK, I'd much rather have him on the putting green than actually doing any thing. Safer that way.

[boris]

"The economy is tanking,there is a swine flu pandemic,America is involved in two wars,there has been unauthorised jet joyriding and Obama is on the putting green ..."

Car 54 where are you ?

[lurking]

Just the tax, M'am.

[PeterUK]

Verner,
Yes much safer on the putting green,but imagine if that had been George Bush.

[Old Lurker]

Rich, Rick and Ranger are onto the mess of conflicts in these auto deals. Rich's reference to fiduciary duties should really be causing heartburn with trustees, fund managers, and the like. Even TARP banks voting these bonds are voting some that might be owned by the banks, but I am certain that many of those are actually in trusts managed by the banks. MIght be some very interesting legal fallout down the road for the insurance carriers of some managers.

The most troubling aspect of this is how damn fast they have moved to use these levers of control on formerly private enterprise, and what that portends for the future.

Note the dems' agreement to use the 51% budget recon route for cramming universal health care onto the system.

Good call on your index funds, Rick.

[PeterUK]

OL,
"The most troubling aspect of this is how damn fast they have moved to use these levers of control on formerly private enterprise, and what that portends for the future."

You know what it portends for the future,there are examples all over the world.Best trying to escape to Cuba now.

[Pofarmer]

Read in a Forex article on U.S. GDP this morning that something like 70% of U.S. GDP is consumption spending.

This thing has a looonnnngggg way it can go down. A very long way. And the Barack Hussein administration surely isn't doing anything to help it recover.

[lurking]

Don't carjack my red Pontiac.

Holman Jenkins in the WaJo about how government and the UAW have ruined the US owned domestic auto manufacturing industry over the last quarter century.

The only good thing about how fast they've moved in the fascist direction is that they are dropping us into a boiling pot, rather than turning the heat up slowly. My brother used to say that crabs commit suicide by not struggling hard enough to get out of the water. Well, jump, people, jump.

[lurking]

Right, PoF. Does anyone here know anyone who is spending like last year? Credit loosening may not help, because no one is asking for it.

The image I like is Obama's desperate attempt to re-inflate the bubble. It's a popped balloon, honey. Give it up and lower taxes, and hunker down like it is 2003. Leave health care, energy, the autos and the banks alone. It's your only chance really. Recreate the good old days of George Bush's Administration.

[lurking]

Heh, Specter thought he was a rat leaving a sinking ship. Instead, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire. Pennsylvania Democrats are not going to get a fever for him, and the Republicans are going to be white hot. What a betrayal.

[anduril]

From The Hill:

Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee huddled with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi Tuesday night as Republicans turned up the pressure about whether Democrats had objected in 2002 to interrogation policies they deem illegal.

But committee members said their meeting was about improving the nation's intelligence gathering, not responding to Republicans.

...

Intelligence Committee Democrats emerging from the meeting were tight-lipped, although Rep. John Tierney (D-Mass.) was clearly annoyed with Hoekstra’s recent comments.

“This is about doing our job as the Intelligence Committee,” Tierney said. “Mr. Hoekstra can cross any lines that he wants. He can politicize national security if he wants to.”

Uh, right.

[Sue]

Just the tax, M'am.

Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 10:34 AM

The peeps on here are so witty and wise. ::grin::

[Sue]

Shoot, does it larwyn the thread when you don't close a blockquote?

[Sue]

Nope.

And does Tierney want us to trot out the memo written by a democrat that instructed members of the intelligence committee to do just that? Talk about lines...

[smirking]

::Sue::!

[anduril]

Dick Morris (linked at RCP) analyzes the poll numbers and concludes:

For Americans to conclude that they disapprove of their president in the midst of an earth-shaking crisis is very difficult. But as Obama's daily line moves from "I inherited this mess" to "There are faint signs of light," the clock starts ticking. If there is no recovery for the next six months - and I don't think there will be - Obama will inevitably become part of the problem, not part of the solution.

And then will come his heavy lifting. He has yet to raise taxes, regiment healthcare or provide amnesty for illegal immigrants. He hasn't closed down the car companies he now runs and he has not yet forced a 50 percent hike in utility bills with his cap-and-trade legislation. These are all the goodies he has in store for us all.

Obama's very activism these days arrogates to himself the blame for the success or failure of his policies. Their outcome will determine his outcome, and there is no way it will be positive.

Why?

• You can't borrow as much as he will need to without raising interest rates that hurt the economy;

• The massive amount of spending will trigger runaway inflation once the economy starts to recover;

• His overhaul of the tax code (still in the planning phases) and his intervention in corporate management will create such business uncertainty that nobody will invest in anything until they see the lay of the land;

• His bank program is designed to help banks, but not to catalyze consumer lending. And his proposal for securitization of consumer loans won't work and is just what got us into this situation.

So Mr. Obama should enjoy his poll numbers while he may.

[Ranger]

The image I like is Obama's desperate attempt to re-inflate the bubble. It's a popped balloon, honey. Give it up and lower taxes, and hunker down like it is 2003. Leave health care, energy, the autos and the banks alone. It's your only chance really. Recreate the good old days of George Bush's Administration.

Posted by: lurking | April 29, 2009 at 10:47 AM

Well, Obama created this dilema for himself. He campaigned specificly against the very behaviors he now needs to save his presidency.

"We can't just be maxing out our credit cards"

Ok, fine, I actually agree with that. But, that means we have to pay off debt and start saving again. And because people are doing that, consuption is dropping, and the economy is shriking.

[lurking]

I'm sure you meant 'the economy is shrieking', right, Ranger?

[narciso]

Peter, you meant that metaphorically right, there is no place left to go, if the 'last best hope' descends into the sludge of the rest of the world. Right, the Democrats don't care about politicization of intelligence, like Church and Turner and Rockefeller didn't lead to the Ayatollah and the Sandinistas, or Torricelli, didn't leave us blind in the 90s (Interestingly in one of Weisman's books, he references that among the CIA bases cut in the pre 9/11 period was Hamburg)

[anduril]

Very interesting article by Amitai Etzioni: The Mother of All Deals

[RichatUF]

Rick-

Not surprising. When "Change to Win Investment Group" started making noise a couple of weeks ago, I figured that the pension funds would be next in going after Ken Lewis and BAC. The "clue" is the "Change to Win" moniker, and yep, it leads back to Obama's muscle in the SEIU and AFSME (among about a baker's dozen of unions).

Ever since I read this piece (and I've linked to it a few times), I've been curious of the collusion among union bosses and union fund managers and wondered if the same sorts of rules applied to them as they apply to other types of fund managers. What better way to get inside information from a company than from the line employees who could then sabotage the company from the inside (a bit like point shaving in sports)?

A few years back there was this odd wild cat strike at Jet Blue (bags were put on the wrong aircraft, work slow downs causing massive delays, etc) which crushed the share price and cleaned out the executive suite. Never did research it enough to get a picture of the options action on the company at the time, but I'm pretty sure if a fund manager knew by way of a union boss that something was going to happen, he could have set himself up to make a substantial profit.YMMV.

[Old Lurker]

PUK, we are blessed with your attendance at JOM, and we know you are living our future. HOW we can ignore your example is beyond me.

I loved Andrew Llyod Weber's editorial the other day re your latest tax the producers until they move actions.

Hmmm. Cuba might be a play, you are right...wonder if we can buy up old private property reclamation rights from the old property owners for .01/$ ?

[bad]

lurking, you are very, very funny. So glad you are here in the flesh, so to speak...

[anduril]

Nice picture: The Big Tree

[Bill in AZ]

In addition to the Peoples Republic of 0's economy swirling down the toilet at a 6.1% GDP contraction, the economic genius of Zero based his rosy deficit projection on a fantasy GDP growth of 3.2% for 2010. Oh, and on Cap and Tax. Neither are going to happen. This will be fascinating to watch, in a rattlesnake biting your ankle sort of way.

[MayBee]

If anyone else here is on Twitter,
@markknoller is another good WH reporter to follow. He doesn't interact in the same way Tapper does, but he has indirectly answered two questions for me this morning.

[anduril]

Goldman Sachs Hires Barney Frank Staffer To Be Its Lobbyist

Sorry, America, We're Too Corrupt To Fix The Financial System

Two posts at Clusterstock. Neither directly mentions the other.

[bad]

anduril, was he a staffer, or a "staffer"...

[clarice]

PUK, It is an exceptionally strong corset relying on some fascinating new nano-fabric..

[Ignatz]

-Rich's reference to fiduciary duties should really be causing heartburn with trustees, fund managers, and the like.-

So how are unfunded pensions and health care benefits treated in bankruptcy in relation to debtholders?
GM apparently has around $20B in unfunded pension liabilites of which about $4B would be covered by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. Chrysler $9B and $2B respectively.
If, in practice, unfunded pension liabilities are superior to unsecured debt in BK then perhaps these deals aren't as bad as they appear at first glance.

I tried, admittedly not too hard, to decipher what 507 of the bankruptcy code said but my eyes glazed over.

[PeterUK]

OL.
The tax hike to 50% high earners with an income above £150,000 is window dressing for the class warriors.Whilst that kind of income is "well off" it isn't rich, taking into consideration house prices.
The tax will no affect the rich but it will affect,the medical profession,IT,accountants,small businesses,entertainers,restaurateurs,architects , designers and other professions.
There will then be a knock on through the service industries as the 50% ers retrench.Little Tristram's music lessons will go,his sister Charlotte will lose her dancing lessons.The hairdresser and the nail boutique will close down,that nice little bistro will become a charity shop.The last of the English pubs will go thanks to this android with the faulty chip.

[Rick Ballard]

Bill,

The GDP has actually contracted by slightly more than 12% over the fiscal YTD. We're actually two quarters into the (D)irty Socialist disaster.

It's interesting to note the preponderance of "green shoot" dreck appearing in the Mediacrat business press. "Declining inventories set the stage" garbage would be true if the productive consumer were not committed to mattress stuffing rather than satisfying wants.

Team TurboZero is not eliciting anything resembling trust among the productive who understand the future as envisioned by the (D)irty Socialists. Why should they offer their custom to the fascist bootlickers rattling their begging cups and signing up to become "partners" in the death of capitalism?

[anduril]

bad, the question is, does he get a corner office or just a corner closet?