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April 25, 2009

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narciso

Tom, this is not an original idea, it comes from Section 9, but "Friends don't let friends read McClatchy" these are the same
people who denied the AQ links with Iraq,
who believed we created terrorists out of formerly 'innocent' sheepherders at Gitmo. The IG is the new Zampolit in government
departments, that's why there was a push to purge those who didn't go along like Schmitz at Defense, Krongard's brother at Justice

davebo

"these are the same
people who denied the AQ links with Iraq"

I don't think you should disqualify them merely for having been accurate in the past.

Rick Ballard

Ascertaining causation in relationship to events which never occurred is apt to remain somewhat speculative.

I suppose one might string the list of terrorist attacks from '93 to 9/11 upon US targets into a narrative concerning the efficacy of the FBI and CIA intelligence gathering methods prior to 9/11 and compare that to the list of all the successful terrorist attacks after 9/11 but that would not address the parsing issue which is the core of this particular exercise in futility.

anduril

I already know what the wild bear does in the woods.

narciso

The difference between limited informatio and no information is key, the latter is the argument McClatchy has been peddling for many years now. They have an increasingly more 'selective' audience in the words of Spinal Tap, yet they just crank up the 'volume to eleven' But then is the typical nature of their operation, they
spent the better part of last year, trashing
their archives in the Anchorage branch to create a decidedly false impression of the candidate they knew so well. Now there South Florida branch is championing Obama's new embrace with the Castro bros, well there's not a dimes worth of difference between them in philosophy so I can see the source of that category error.

MikeS

Frankly, I like the idea of something harsh happening to enemy combatants. If, in the course of that happening there are no more terrorist attacks on the homeland, so much the better.

PeterUK

Davebo,
How true. The fact that the al Qaeda head hacker in chief for Mesopotamia,Abu Musab al-Zarqawi,was in Iraq before the invasion is a mere trifle.After all he was a Sunni and Saddam Hussein(familiar name?)was a Sunni,means,no wait a minute,can't be that,Saddam didn't have beard.That's it! Saddam wouldn't cooperate with the hirsute.

Thomas Collins

So, if muscular interrogation doesn't work, why hasn't Obama banned all rendition to countries less squeamish than we are about doing the necessary to get the intel? I know I posted something similar on a different TM thread, but I am so steamed about this second guessing of Bush, Cheney, Yoo et al., I am venting again.

Pofarmer

Let's just remember folks. We're talking about THREE individuals here.

Thomas Collins

Via Gateway Pundit, see LUN for a Brit's take on Obama's attitude toward the country the constitution of which he swore to preserve, protect and defend.

Ignatz

-I don't think you should disqualify them merely for having been accurate in the past.-

Dipshit.
Read this to learn a little about how 'accurate' your fellow dipshits were.

Pofarmer

The other problem is that the memes are taking root. On a local call in show last night, the Libertarian and the Democrat were both arguing that Japanese had been executed for water torture, there KSM was waterboarded 183 "times", that we didn't get any useful information, etc, etc.

There just isn't time to uncover all the lies and half truths they are using in this argument. I hope there aren't show trials, but I'm not confident of it.

Thomas Collins

Via Instapundit, see LUN for a Noemie Emery article on what a Truth Commission might include on its agenda.

Charlie (Colorado)

I don't think you should disqualify them merely for having been accurate in the past.

"unthinking acceptance of conventional wisdom without basis" is a use of "accurate" with which I was hitherto unfamiliar.

andycanuck

I am heading off to the woods to research the behavior of bears.
Be careful a tree doesn't fall on you--I understand they don't make a noise.

Greg Toombs

Are you bringing the Pope any TP?

Charlie (Colorado)

Is the bear Catholic?

Ignatz

-Ascertaining causation in relationship to events which never occurred is apt to remain somewhat speculative.-

You mean all those jobs Barry is saving, Rick?

clarice

Is this the McClatchy swan song? How much money do they have left to keep operating.


Yes, we little band of those seeking truth in dross are rapidly being overtaken again by lies from the same old usual liars.

Well, what are we going to do about it?

Rick Ballard

Ignatz,

That too. I was actually reflecting upon a dystopian vision of the Goracle having successfully stolen the '00 election and then having imposed economy killer measures such as SoroZero desires. At this point in such a dystopia, the Goracle would have been proclaimed Savior of Gaia due to nothing he had actually done. "Thoughtful" credentialed morons would be framing such analysis for consumption by the gullible and weak minded.

It's difficult to discern the biggest fool in all of this.

Ignatz

Here's an interesting legal anaysis from Patterico's site regarding prosecuting either the memo writers or interrogators.

Ignatz

-It's difficult to discern the biggest fool in all of this.-

Actually Rick, I believe the formal name for the theory is "The Greater Fool" used to decribe the sap left holding the bag, in which case he is easy to discern; it's you and me, the taxpayers.

Mark E

"these are the same
people who denied the AQ links with Iraq"

I don't think you should disqualify them merely for having been accurate in the past.

Posted by: davebo | April 25, 2009 at 01:12 PM

They weren't "accurate." I know the McClatchy guys and they refuse to listen to anything outside of liberal Democrat doctrinaire on ANY topic relating to the war on terror. Do you honestly think that it's coincidental that every one of their stories just "happens" to report the Democrat side and leave out the Republican one/

JM Hanes

Pofarmer:

"The other problem is that the memes are taking root."

That's been a depressing feature of Liberal memes since the day GWB was "selected" by SCOTUS. A number or a euphemism only has to appear once in the MSM to be immediately incorporated into the narrative, where it remains no matter how many times it is refuted.

The Lancet mortality "estimates," and the bogus "survey" which produced that 80% of Iraqis who said they worse off and wanted the U.S. out, were permanently fixed in lefty talking points till Obama won the election. "Everybody knows" there was never any AQ connection in Iraq and nary a hint of WMD. The documents released by the President will forever be the "torture memos," and John Yoo will have "authorized" torture across the board. KSM will have been waterboarded 183 times -- whether or not that "fact," in and of itself, defeats the liberal argument that it meets the definition of torture.

The only nominal revision, to date, is the switch from Global Warming to Global Climate Change. The only thing that ever shifts are the goal posts, like the current move from "Torture never works," to "Other methods might have produced results."

Charlie (Colorado)

Porter Goss on what was briefed, and to whom.

Quote:


Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:

-- The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.

-- We understood what the CIA was doing.

-- We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.

-- We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.

-- On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.

clarice

JMH, I was thinking of an article along those lines but i don't know where to go after stating the obvious. I mean how is it possible to stop non stop lies when solid factual refutation is ignored by the media? When the truth is more complicated than an MTC number or a sound byte?

It is so very frustrating.

And the lies are non stop--it's like playing endless whack a mole.

Terry Gain

Well, now its news. Grr. If a blogger posts in the forest and no one reads it, is the Pope Catholic?

I am heading off to the woods to research the behavior of bears.

This would be an improvement over posting nonsense. You should wait for the memos of which Cheney is demanding the release.

If you want to believe Cheney is demanding the release of memos which won't support his case, so be it. But isn't it best to keep illogical thoughts to oneself.

JM Hanes

davebo:

It's hard to resist piling on, when someone spouts inanities like this one.

"I don't think you should disqualify them merely for having been accurate in the past."

About as accurate as the New York Times fabricating "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia" despite the fact that the terrorists called themselves "al Qaeda in Iraq." They cut that one from whole cloth just to avoid putting al Qaeda and Iraq in the same sentence. The rules for the President were even more draconian, of course. He only had to put al Qaeda and Iraq in the same paragraph to be tarred for propaganda.

clarice

**MTV**(The C on my keyboard seems to have vanished from overuse. Also O andL and N,A and M are increasingly fainter.)

Rick Ballard

Geez, you won't be able to use onomatopoeia hardly at all.

bad

More unbelievable rhetoric from Zero about fiscal responsibility. Time for a bottle of nausea pills.

LUN

clarice

Hardly at all, Rick..

narciso

Wasn't April Fool's day three weeks ago. Re the LUN. I mean that's 'not satire, that's
zany mad cap humor' Seriously, though, this kultursmog, which I first read of from Emmett Tyrell, 15 years ago, is nauseating, You see in the news, on the entertainment shows, in the films, everywhere, Any contrary evidence like Rasmussen's rating or the Dennis Blair excised memo, doesn't go down the memory whole, but get short shrift. It may seem innocuous like that charming little pantomime done by Tina Fey, but when people who vote remember the sketch and not the words of the person saying it, I assure it's not.

DrJ

Well, now its news. Grr. If a blogger posts in the forest and no one reads it, is the Pope Catholic?

I am heading off to the woods to research the behavior of bears.

Just don't name your first-born after the bear.

Did the link stay put??

Andrew

Note the use of the phrase "specific imminent attacks". So perhaps they did not stop an attack in progress, but broke it up in the planning and plotting stage before it became "imminent"? Were the "19 east asian operatives" that were supposedly divulged by KSM in the process of getting on the planes to be crashed into LA. No, probably not. Therefore, that would not be described as an "imminent attack", would it?

Charlie (Colorado)

Datum:

According to the International Red Cross documents that were recently released, which quote KSM and other detainees describing their interrogations, KSM says he told by his interrogators that he would not die. With the release of the OLC memos, we know why: one of the red lines that, if crossed, would have made the techniques torture under US law was whether the detainees thought they were in danger of death. That is why they were told specifically they would not die. So both the trainee and detainee know they will survive.

narciso

This 'torture' meme, has become torture in itself, I'm glad to defend the actions taken to defend this country, from the likes of Abu Zubeydah, KSM, Al Nashiri, & Muhammed Manea Al Quahtani, Jane Mayer and
Dick Durbin's charity case. Aggresive interrogation protocols work when you have
very rigorous controls, when they don't you get Passaro in Afghanistan, and Abu Ghraib, in large part due to the negligence of Gen.
Karpinski. The fact that this criticism of people who never really spoke up about the fate of Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg, Quatrocchi,
Paul Johnson, in the Riyadh slum of Suweidi
( a scene almost reenacted in the Kingdom)
really leaves me cold. They would 100,000, 1,000,000 die, to secure their virtue. That's a monstrous window into their world
view. That Whitley Streiber book, Critical Mass, I referenced in an earlier thread, was full of ideological claptrap, but the set piece of the early part of the book, is a depiction of what a nuclear detonation in Las Vegas would lead to in the modern era; it's a wonder I haven't had nightmares about it. On a lighter note, guess who's one of the guest commenters in the Post on the dear leader's 100 day anniversary.

Thomas Collins

Thanks for the LUN on the Palin article, narciso. Sarah Barracuda is keeping her teeth sharp for 2012!

JM Hanes

***Hopefully this ramble will show up at the end of a page, so that folks won't have to scroll on by for long. With massive apologies, I just didn't have the time it would take to improve the flow or make it shorter -- or revise it for posting over at Qblog, which is where some would surely say it belongs.* **

Clarice:

"I was thinking of an article along those lines but i don't know where to go after stating the obvious."

I used to advise my kids that the last time you're likely to get someone to admit they are wrong is usually when you've just won an argument. People will turn themselves, and their positions, into pretzels in order to avoid that final humiliation -- even when they know they've lost on points. We're watching that with the mutating ant-torture memes right now.

I had to learn a similar lesson in dealing with teenage kids myself. They might dispute or refuse to acknowledge any point you make, but they hear it, and when it makes sense, you can often see them act accordingly down the road. That's why it's so important to keep plugging away at the truth, even when it seems like you're getting nowhere. Most important truths eventually bump up against reality somewhere.

TM should be pleased as punch that a blogger posted in the forest and now it's news! Despite our disdain for the New York Times, Reuters, the AP etc. they remain powerful public filters. One of the unfortunate side effects of declining revenues at newspapers across the country, is that the first to be cut from newsroom staffs are the specialists who can actually tell truth from fiction -- which is why they increasingly rely on vested-interest press releases for putative stories. That's where pools of expertise and naysayers on the net have a role to play.

We may represent a very small portion of the politically engaged, but that makes it all the more important to keep nipping at MSM heels. I see signs here and there that the press may have begun the transition to their traditional adversarial role vis a vis the administration and the party in power. Having jumped the shark so decisively in the past 8 years, it will probably take longer than usual for their cynicism to resurface. With so many liberals in the media, Democrats will always get the benefit of the doubt, but I know I have to keep reminding myself that Bush has only been out of office for three months! Democrats refusal to "move on" will not really help them as the majority party very long. Public polling has pretty consistently come in against public hangings, which suggests that the narrative doesn't always represent the political humors on the ground.

There may be a national black out on tea parties, but local pushback gets noticed at the local level, even when it's not featured on hometown front pages either -- though Gov. Perry's secessionist musings certainly crossed the public radar. The push for state sovereignty amendments can penetrate the public consciousness without much attention in New York and DC. Political overreach -- which now dwarfs anything we saw when Republicans held Congress and the White House -- and overexposure will ultimately work to our advantage too. Americans have always leaned toward divided government, and it will be interesting to see the audience numbers for yet another [yawn] primetime presidential appearance next week.

When I am the most dispirited, and wonder how so many people can be so misled, I've started making it a practice to ask myself whether I believe in America or not. Do I believe in the American people or not? If I can't say yes, what does that say about my own patriotic faith in this country?

The polls may go up and down like roller coasters, but there was never enough support for the Democrats to actually kill off the war in Iraq, even when discouragement set in and the President's personal poll numbers were tanking (sort of the opposite of the Obama model, where the Prez is more popular than his policies). I think Bush's leadership was critically important, but the Democratic political class in Washington are the only ones who insist that the last election was a moratorium on foreign policy. Approval of Democrats in Congress is not a whole lot higher than it is for Republicans, and the military is the most trusted institution in the country.

The muddle really doesn't pay attention to the day to day details that consume us here, but they often get the basics right. I don't really think rapidly shifting opinion reflects fundamental fickleness, I just think folks don't pay enough attention to politics to hold strong opinions till they're faced with making actual decisions. Call them a lagging indicator. I do note, however, that yesterday Rasmussen reported that 53% of the public "say it is at least somewhat likely that the next occupant of the White House will be a Republican. Thirty-one percent (31%) say it is Very Likely." I'd call that an unusually fast reaction to current events on the political stage.

Opposition counts whether it seems to or not! I don't think "winning" the public argument, in any ordinary sense, is ever really possible or permanent, which is why I would measure success with media in incremental shifts not victory, per se. The fact that FOX news is killing the competition tells us something important. The fact that a political wild man like Glenn Beck is a media meteor also suggests that the ongoing battle is being fought on multiple fronts. Running Democratic arguments and memes through the intellectual shredder is a time consuming, thankless business, but somebody has got to do that part because the anti-talking points have to come from somewhere. I noticed Britt Hume's outfit pulling out stories circulating on blogs years ago.

So where does all that leave us? I see a number of related ways that we could make more difference than we do, most of which don't focus on winning arguments with the political class at all, but build on the fact that so much of the public only pays sporadic attention to Washington in the first place. Recent polling only confirms the split between public and political insider agendas.

If newspapers are relying on press releases, why stop when you've written a piece for the web (meaning you in a general sense here, and in what follows)? Send it out! In this age of emails, I wonder if sending letters out on paper might actually make a bigger impression (especially if it arrives under a a professional looking letterhead). It certainly wouldn't hurt to email it lefty bloggers either, instead of waiting for links from someone like Instapundit, whom the left clearly read. I never leave comments on MSM stories on the web, I email reporters directly. Writers on the top of the heap never respond, but reporters a rung or two down the ladder do so with surprising frequency.

Support local, state and grassroots initiatives in every possible way. Getting coverage in the national press may be less important in the long run than going over their heads. Keeping local media informed helps, and I suspect all those local news anchors might welcome cultivation. Ditto for state & local representatives. New Hampshire's Sovereignty resolution didn't come out of nowhere! Amending state constitutions may represent the most effective way to short circuit both federal and judicial encroachments. That's where Conservatives always say that decisions should be made, and maybe it's time to put their money where their mouths are. Even unsuccessful bids can raise awareness. California voters came out in droves to support traditional marriage, despite the PC narrative which makes such blatant cowards of politicians.

Active involvement is the only thing that will sustain potentially universe shifting movements like the Tea Parties too. If a local Tea Party group has a website, keep them supplied with fodder, even if it's just links to topical articles. There's nothing more depressing than an abandoned forum. Take a buddy to local town meetings where the public virtually never shows up. Conservatives have spent time in the wilderness before. They came back by building local interest groups and supporting local candidates for years till they reached a tipping point. It needn't take nearly as long, now that we've got the web.

Actively supporting any local college or university campus Republican clubs might be one way to start helping redress the academic stranglehold of liberals. College administrations are not the only ones who can host speakers and gatherings! It seems to me that forging new town and gown relationships could make a real difference to embattled Republican minorities on campus who can probably use all the morale boosting (and talking points) they can get (flyers printed out for free!). Support FIRE.

The beauty of most of the above for folks like us at JOM, is that you can do so much of it without ever getting out of the chair in front of your computer! Presuming you can hardly state the obvious too often, in the end, it's not about winning the argument in the press or on the web. It's about outflanking the competition at the polls. Narratives are undeniably important, but fighting them, or winning, in the media is not the only measure of success or the only option. Making memes irrelevant removes the sting. Each of us has a home court advantage that national media and DC do not. Shift opinion in your state, you get the Senator who shifts the national vote count too and who can help shift the narrative to boot.

Don't know if I've strayed from the question you were asking, but the above is how I've starting answering questions I've been asking myself. Hopefully, I'm not alone!

 Ann

JMH, As always, that was such a thoughtful piece and I admit to daily fatigue at that very question of "What Can I Do?"

I loved this: They might dispute or refuse to acknowledge any point you make, but they hear it, and when it makes sense, you can often see them act accordingly down the road. My daughter finds it infuriating that she has to tell me I was right. It actually has become a joke in my house. Which is really good.

I am afraid we don't have much time to persuade. Everyday we hear of some small and not insignificant thing this czar has proposed and has the votes to pass.

Today, I heard he wants to get rid of the right to have a lawyer when detained by police and he wants the government to be in charge of student loans. Our liberties are vanishing as we breathe.

Obama will ram down our throats a health care system that will be our end if the next terrorist attach isn't and I find myself really scared for the first time in my life of a powerful government that will put people in prison for their advice, thoughts and political ideas.

Even our cable magazine has a front page cover of MSNBC's Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, and CNN's John King and Rick Sanchez titled "What's News To You?" (No Fox, no Glenn Beck, no Hannity, no Brit Hume)

Please keep writing.

 Ann

**attack**

Who knows what happened to italics command???

Now they are making fun of Michael Steele and President Bush on Saturday Night. Leaving to turn the darn thing OFF.

 Ann

As with most things I always get back to simple is best. Puppy analogies always work:

Dangerous dogs to be killed or moved

Yesterday, the city's Board of Health ordered the dogs euthanized or moved out of the county within 20 days. Their owner, Shawn Wellen of 2727 Vanderberg Ave. on the Hilltop, must have permission to move the dogs into another jurisdiction. He also could appeal the city's decision to Franklin County Common Pleas Court.

Wellen didn't appear before the board yesterday and didn't respond to messages left at his home.

Columbus Public Health has had five complaints about Wellen's dogs. They might have been involved in the deaths of two other neighborhood dogs, according to varying accounts, but there is no proof, said public-health veterinarian Dr. Aaron K. Messer.

How could we have prevented Dolly from being tortured to death?
What would you do to prevent it? Can you argue on the killers behalf? Would you move them into your community? Do you need proof that doing nothing would of prevented it if only we had given dog bones to the killers and said we are your friend...good dog!

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Wilson/Plame