Dealergate

It's going to take a lot of digging to see if there is gold in Dealergate.

The Washington Examiner is a good starting point.  The gist - Team Obama is closing Chrysler dealerships that donated to Republicans and allowing Obama donors to live.

The pushback, both here and from Nate Silver - most car dealers are Republican (older, male, small businessman, maybe not so green, maybe not big union guys.)  It appears that Reps outnumber Dems by something like 9-1, although the data seem to be hazy as to how many dealers are not donors at all.

The pushback is not wholly convincing; the allegation is that Obama donors are getting a break, not necessarily generic Dem donors to, for example, John Edwards.

However, it is almost surely true that most of the surviving dealers are also Republicans, so statisticians will be left to grapple with the question of whether two populations (the 75% that survived to close another day, which includes maybe 10% Democrats and a smaller portion of Obama donors) is significantly different from the 25% that were closed, which seems to be roughly 90% Rep with no notable Obama donors.

The fact that McLarty, Clinton's former Chief of Staff, was a big winner helps the side arguing for political motivation.

Confounding the data - somewhere in the mix will be black car dealers who gave to Obama.  Did they survive because of their donation strategy, because of a race-based initiative by the Administration to promote minority businesses, or because they serve distinctive communities, or some combination?  [I still don't know.]

I would be shocked if we found that Obama did not take care of his friends, and even more shocked if this struck people as scandalous.  Sure, sure, it was crony capitalism when Bush allegedly did it, but that was then.

Comments

[PaulL]

You ain't seen nothing yet.

[SlimGuy]

According to OpenSecrets.org , historically 80% of money donated by car dealers goes to Republicans. LUN

But that does not tell the whole story.

Only about 9 million got donated by dealers last year. It is possible that with that small amount for a total that out of 789 dealers being closed they COULD be the bulk of active donors.

We simply won't know until the full statistics set get done after all the cross referencing of over 2000 dealers is done.

[bad]

It's not as if they're big oil, after all...

[Mickey]

In the end it won't matter anyway. Chrysler and GM don't have a chance in hell of making it. They are both destined to fail, the real question is how long will taxpayers subsidize them before it is admitted. A government and union owned car company will not have the customer's best interest at heart.

[Danube of Thought]

I don't think there's anything there.

[Rick Ballard]

Dan Collins at PW posts about some probabilities. The introduction of multiple variables (and the fact that the Car Czar Rat will sit on pertinent data) will make this an entertaining to pass time.

I sorta like "the odds are a Sestrigintillion to one of that happening" but I doubt that it will become commonplace.

Is it better to have a Govmo Widowmaker dealership or to lose one? I can see a "Friends don't let friends drive Govmo" campaign coming in the near future.

[bad]

"Friends don't let friends drive Govmo"

Hilarious, Rick!!

[Old Lurker]

What Mickey said.

[Danube of Thought]

At first blush, what is offered as statistical analysis at the link looks incoherent. But it may well be that I just didn't take the time to ascertain all the definitions and assumptions behind it.

And that's the way it's going to remain.

[PeterUK]

If you want to know the fate of GM and Chrysler just look at the history of British Leyland.A monster created by a socialist government and dominated by the Unions,where shop stewards ruled the roost. It cost the tax payer hundreds of millions until Thatcherism put a stake though its heart

[Pofarmer]

Sure, sure, it was crony capitalism when Bush allegedly did it,

Did what?

[Fresh Air]

Well, to do epidemiological statistics, you need a >2:1 difference in the outcome for it to be meaningful. If 90 percent of dealers are Republican donors, you need to show >95 percent of axed dealers were Republican donors, etc. Anything less than that and "noise" could be driving the outcome. In other words, it might be suggestive of a deliberate favoring of Mediacrat/Zero donors, but the linkage isn't tight enough for it to be conclusive. Then again, the dumbasses in state legislatures never adhere to this standard when making laws, so what the hell...IT'S A CONSPIRACY FOR SURE!

Maybe.

[Ralph L]

I read or heard somewhere that 50% of Chrysler dealers sell 90% of their cars. If that's the case, if any of the big dealers were axed, something's fishy. It also means there are a lot of small ones that aren't being closed.

Has Ibama considered the GW impact of small town/rural buyers having to travel long distances to buy & repair cars?

[Rick Ballard]

"Has Ibama considered the GW impact of small town/rural buyers having to travel long distances to buy & repair cars?"

Sure. The plan is to herd them into a Blue Hell and bury them under a sea of ACORN weatherstrippers and caulkers.

You got a problem with that?

[BC]

Silver's "ha ha, look at those stupid innumerate conservatives" bit has gotten incredibly tiresome, especially given the superficiality of his analysis. I love the work that the guys at Baseball Prospectus do, but they really ought to stick to sports.

[Rick Ballard]

I vote for handing this analysis over to the climate folks. Tell 'em the desired outcome and they'll give you a peer reviewed paper and a functional model constituting "proof". The only downside risk is that they might add Republican car dealership owners to the probable cause of global whatever is on today's menu.

[GMax]

Buffetts potential successor and PayPal founder expound on the green shoot theory. To call it a pounding is to understate the words. here you go:

The U.S. housing market is nowhere near recovery and signs of stabilization are premature, said David Sokol, a top aide to billionaire investor Warren Buffett who oversees the nation’s second-largest real estate brokerage.
Sokol was among money managers who told an investment conference in New York the economy is still deteriorating and they don’t have a lot of confidence in President Barack Obama’s economic policies.
“We’re not seeing the green shoots,” said Sokol, head of MidAmerican Energy Holdings Co., which owns HomeServices of America Inc. “We don’t see improvement.”
MidAmerican is owned by Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway, and Sokol is considered a possible successor to Buffett as head of Berkshire. Sokol spoke before reports today showed new-home sales posted their second increase in three months during April, and mortgage delinquencies and foreclosures rose to records in the first quarter.
Homes in the process of foreclosure are creating a “shadow backlog” of unsold properties that will continue to hang over the market, Sokol, 52, said in a speech yesterday at the Ira W. Sohn Investment Research Conference in New York.
While official statistics show a 10- to 12-month supply of unsold homes, “we believe the backlog of homes for sale is twice that.”

Balance in 2011

Many people who want or need to sell their homes haven’t put them on the market yet because the outlook for sales has been poor, he said. “It will be mid-2011 before we see the market in balance,” with no more than a six-month backlog, he said.
The National Association of Realtors reported yesterday that the number of previously owned houses on the market in April climbed 8.8 percent to 3.97 million, a 10.2 months’
supply.
Sokol suggested government efforts to ease the crisis are actually drawing out the recovery. “We really need to let the economics work through the system,” he said.
It is still difficult and costly for businesses to borrow, Sokol said, creating “headwinds” for recovery. He predicted the U.S. unemployment rate would rise above 10 percent from April’s 8.9 percent.
Peter Thiel, the co-founder of PayPal who now heads the $2 billion San Francisco-based hedge fund Clarium Capital Management LLC, told the conference the stock market’s recent gains will fade and the price of “long assets” such as houses will continue to fall, while Federal Reserve pump-priming will mean “inflation in all the wrong places.”

[David Walser]

A statistical analysis will not end the debate one way or the other. One of the anecdotal stories is that a "five star rated" Chrysler dealership was closed while less-well rated dealerships in the same metro area were allowed to remain open. The owner of the closed dealership gave to the GOP in the last election; the owners of the other dealerships did not give to the GOP.

There may be perfectly valid -- non-political -- explanations for this result. For example, the Five-star dealership that was closed was part of a chain of five Chrysler dealerships owned by the same family. Two of those dealerships are to be closed as part of this program. The family still has three dealerships. Perhaps the committee deciding which dealerships to keep open and which to close looked at the fact the family that gave heavily to the GOP would still have three dealerships while, if they had closed one of the lesser-rated dealerships instead another family would have been completely wiped out.

As long as the process lacks transparency, people will be free to assume the worst. A statistical analysis is not going to change that.

[Pagar]

Dealergate has succeeded beyond Obama's wildest dreams. At absolutely no cost to the Democrats, the word has been passed to every business owner in America that they have two choices. One, they can donate to the Democrats. Two, they can lose every penny they have invested in their business.
Every employee who works for a private employer now knows that, if their employer is donating to Republicans, they may not have a job for long.

The only good news I see from Dealergate is, as Mickey stated above. Neither Chrysler nor GM is going to make it anyway,so the dealers that are losing their dealerships now will probably have a better chance of selling their inventory, than the ones that are stuck with inventory after GM and Chrysler close for good.

Americans should have seen this coming when the Democrats decided they could grab any bonus that employees working for private companies had earned, just because they felt like they deserved the money more than the employees did.

[jimmyk]

OT: Yet an other international gaffe from the gaffemeister-in-chief:

Queen Elizabeth fuming

[reliapundit]

DEALERGATE SMOKING GUN: STATISTICAL PROOF THAT WHOEVER SELECTED DEALERSHIPS TO BE CLOSED LOOKED AT WHO OWNED THEM AND NOT JUST THE NUMBERS
I think this item - from JONAH at The Corner (who is skeptical of the political angle) - actually proves that SOMEBODY paid very VERY close attention to the identity of which Chrysler dealers would not be renewed; (weirdly, Jonah posted this from a reader as if it buttressed the skeptic's interpretation of events):

Of the 789 Chrysler dealers who were notified that their contracts will not be renewed, 38 are minority owned…

At the end of April, there were 154 minority dealers in Chrysler’s 3,181 total U.S. dealer body network….

You’ll see that 4.8% of the auto dealerships closed were minority owned.

Total percentage of all Chrysler dealerships that are minority owned? 4.8%

THAT'S RIGHT: THE % OF MINORITY OWNED DEALERS CLOSED IS EXACTLY THE % MINORITY OWNED.

THIS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE AN ACCIDENT, OR RANDOM.

REPEAT: THIS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE AN ACCIDENT, OR RANDOM.

REPEAT: THIS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE AN ACCIDENT, OR RANDOM.

THIS PROVES THAT
WHOEVER DECIDED WHICH DEALERSHIP
WOULD GET CLOSED LOOKED AT
WHO OWNED WHICH DEALERSHIP.

REPEAT: THIS PROVES THAT WHOEVER DECIDED WHICH DEALERSHIP WOULD GET CLOSED LOOKED AT WHO OWNED WHICH DEALERSHIP.

REPEAT: THIS PROVES THAT WHOEVER DECIDED WHICH DEALERSHIP WOULD GET CLOSED LOOKED AT WHO OWNED WHICH DEALERSHIP.

IT WAS NOT BASED ON NUMBERS ALONE.

WHOEVER DECIDED NOT TO CLOSE A DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF MINORITY OWNED DEALERSHIPS, MAY HAVE VERY WELL DECIDED TO CLOSE A DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF "GOP" DEALERSHIPS OR DEALERSHIPS IN GOP COUNTIES OR IN GOP CD'S.

THE PLAINTIFFS MUST DEMAND THAT THE BANKRUPTCY JUDGE GET THIS INVESTIGATED.

THE PRESIDENTIAL TASK FORCE AND THE WHITE HOUSE SHOULD BE SUBPOENAED.

- Posted by Reliapundit @ 5:43 PM ; Permalink:

http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2009/05/dealergate-smoking-gun-statistical.html

[Old Lurker]

Interesting link, PUK, thanks.

Now go tell the Queen she is lucky not to have been invited to France with Obama and Brown.

Assume you saw the news that Britian lost 50% of its millionairs last year? That's going to happen here too when Jane picks the island for us.

[Old Lurker]

...did not mean to imply Jane will have a net worth test for admission to the island, just that JOMers will attract a lot of rich producers looking for a home, and they might be good to have around.

[BR]

In about half an hour there's a news talk show on Obama's birthcert - spent a million dollars to hide it - by attorney Philip Berg at http://www.blogtalkradio.com Sentinel Radio. 9pm EST.

[narciso]

Nate Silver, wasn't he the one that who woe fully undercounted the number of Tea Party people,on April 15th.

[bad]

Hey BR!! Long time no see!!

[sylvia]

There's an article in Reuters that said the latest minimum wage hike acted as a stealth stimulus, confounding conventional wisdom that it loses jobs. That's what I said all along. To counteract the high housing and other prices, we need to raise wages to get out of this stagnant rut and level out again. We've reached a level of economic efficiency that we can afford to raise wages, and raising the min wage will help equalize the widening wage gap. lun.

[Sue]

The 2 Missouri senators have asked the car czar the criteria used to close dealerships. Seems they are getting lots of complaints from their Missouri constituents. They better hope there was clear criteria that didn't include politics. Otherwise, this story will prove troublesome for Obama. McCaskill is a democrat, after all.

[Porchlight]

That's going to happen here too when Jane picks the island for us.

For the love of JOM, let's get that island up and runnng soon. I will fail a net worth admission test if there is one, but I can cook, mix excellent cocktails, and have a killer record collection.

[Porchlight]

Sue,

It'd be tough to prove if shadowy forces were at work in choosing which dealerships to close. But that doesn't preclude a stink being raised anyway. I'm actually surprised McCaskill is chiming in here.

[BR]

Hi, bad :) Here's a better link:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Sentinel_Radio

It starts in about an hour and I believe it can be heard on their archives later, too.

[Danube of Thought]

"To counteract the high housing and other prices, we need to raise wages to get out of this stagnant rut and level out again."

(a) Raising wages and raising the minimum wage are two very different things.

(b) What happens to the income of the employers who raise other people's wages?

(c) Why should anyone raise an employee's wage if the employee is willing to work for that wage?

[Sue]

We don't have a net worth admission test. All I'm taking is my cool sunglasses.

[BR]

That island wish is gonna come true. I see it.

[Jane]

For the love of JOM, let's get that island up and runnng soon.

I completely agree and I'm dead serious. I keep racking my brain for a place to go but I'm not that well traveled. Can we get Daddy on the case?

Oh and I'd fail the net worth admission too. We will just go knowing we will do whatever it takes.

[BobS]

Me, too, Porchlight. The closures of dealerships is socialistic and likely to be unconstitutional. The power grab by democrats must surprise even those of us who sounded the warning so loudly.

[PeterUK]

OL.

You have to understand how many "ex" communists the are in the labour government,some were on the MI5 watch list,there was a great shredding of files in 1997.
Like all those of their stamp,the government does care what kind of dunghill it creates,only that they are the ones crowing on top of it.
Happily the "Night of the Long knives" approaches on a tsunami of detestation.

[DrJ]

All I'm taking is my cool sunglasses.

Hubba hubba!

[Fresh Air]

DoT--

Furthermore, inflation has not started yet. Given the high level of unemployment, companies could probably attract workers in most fields without raising wages at all.

[Old Lurker]

Sylvia, the article does not say what you say it does, and it does not say what the reporter thinks he wrote either.

You challenge the conventional thinking that raising the MW costs jobs. The reporter says that too, but cites only data that reports low end wage earners spent more than before their wages went up. Duh.

The reporter seems to think that higher spending somehow counters the conventional wisdom that a higher MW will reduce the profits of the companies that pay them, but no such data is presented. Indeed the amount of extra spending identified, presumbably some or all of the incremental wages paid from the increased MW almost certainly contributed to the freefall in corporate earnings that has been the hallmark of the recession.

You both seem to conclude that raising the MW did not lose jobs, rather gained them, even as the unemployment rate increased from 5% to soon-to-be 10+%.

The disconnect between the facts and the conclusions of the writer should come as no surprise as the source quoted is said to be a "liberal think tank".

[Sue]

Hubba hubba!

::blush:: That didn't come out right, did it?

I promise to bring a towel for meals.

[BR]

Hmmmm, Sue, like this in Bonaire and this in St. Martin.

[PaulL]

Just heard a minute of Mark Levin's radio show. His advice for Powell, Ridge, and others of the type: Shut up and go to hell.

[Sue]

St. Martins. Where they now feature complimentary high speed internet access in each room.

[Old Lurker]

OK BR, I vote you chair the stalled Island Search Committee. Are we going to allow the JOM ladies to vote down the dress code evident in the two links you posted? Hope not. I'll have to change my name to Dirty Old Lurker.

[BR]

That's sooooo funny, the SIS Committee :) With codes and all.

[JM Hanes]

OL:

"Are we going to allow the JOM ladies to vote down the dress code..."

Allow?

[Pagar]

Porchlight, I don't understand why anyone thinks that:

"It'd be tough to prove if shadowy forces were at work in choosing which dealerships to close."

As far as I know, no has shown a single benefit to Chrysler in closing profitable privately owner dealerships. The total number of cars sold by dealers is not going to increase because there are less dealers. Chrysler is not going to be able to increase their selling price because there are less dealers. Where does Chrysler gain by this.
No matter how many Republican dealers are left, the fact is that one group gains from all this. The group that gains are the Democrats. Republican dealers who have watched their net worth reduced by millions are not going to be able to donate in future elections like they have been. IMO, there will be numberous personal bankruptcies from this mess. All to satisfy a political party that want their opponents destroyed, personally and financially. Meanwhile, the Republican leadership just sets back and lets it happen.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I know that Doug Ross has been trumpeting this ScapeDealer story, I know a one note trumpet player, but he did put up the interesting twist that the target was the Congressional Districts in the closings. The dealers closed were in GOP districts, or "swingable" districts and therefore removed a source of funding for future GOP candidates., a very Rahm-ish tactic, if I may say so myself. I'm feeling very comfortable with the idea that BHO is told specifically what to do, when to do it, and where. He's so totally "minded" it's like he's a savant, while the decisions are being handled in the COS office. Something to think about. And now I rant.

(I am sooooo reeeaaalllly tired of the -gate thing. It was almost forty years ago, get over your success. The press has broken their respective arms I don't know how many times patting themselves on the back for their last big "scoop". It's like listening to "Old Uncle Fred" retell the same story at Thanksgiving every year. Bah!)

Later all. Good week so far...

[Old Lurker]

Just seeing who's paying attention, JMH.

I have a wife, two daughters, and a female dog. Trust me. I am well trained.

[PeterUK]

The political temper of a country can be judged by its political cartoons MP July Kirkbride is the member for Bromsgrove.

[Old Lurker]

MR...I'm sick of 'gates. And I'm sick of Czars. And I'm sick of Obama...

[BR]

Obama birth cert coverup radio show starting. Click on my link up at 7:53.

PS: OL, the photographs at those sites are just beautiful. I've been to Bonaire and always wanted to return. The clearest, turquoise waters, the best conch fritters, balmy breezes, oh, I could go on and on.

[Jane]

So why doesn't someone ask how the dealer decision was made? Or better still get a dealer to file suit and begin discovery.

[BobS]

Pagar has an angle that should be considered. Rham Emanual understands that he has an opportunity to destroy the finances of GOP donors. what benefit is there in closing dealerships in the first place. Lets close selected McDonald's to fight obesity.

[BobS]

How many jobs did Obama kill by closing dealerships? Is he looking to put more workers on the rolls of unemployed benefits to increase dem power?

[JM Hanes]

Don't worry, OL. Everybody will be getting Free-To-Be-Me dog tags on arrival, including you! Only the pets will have to be well trained.

[Old Lurker]

:-)

[centralcal]

Re: the JOM island . . .

Porch, you had me at "cocktails!"

I too would miserably fail the millionaire test, but I can garden and cook (and cuss like a sailor - just in case any weird Liberals try to invade).

[Sue]

(and cuss like a sailor - just in case any weird Liberals try to invade).

That made me laugh out loud.

[Old Lurker]

Like I said..by the time we get out of here, there will be no millionaires! If don't don't start packing, there won't be any thousandaires either!

[Sue]

I don't know a lot about dealerships and how they structure their contracts, but I seem to remember from a client that had a dealership years ago they are guaranteed (or maybe required) to purchase so many cars per year from the manufacturer. With so many dealerships being guaranteed (or required) a quota of cars, the manufacturer is pumping them out whether they are being sold or not. And with so many dealerships the competition is causing the prices to go down. Though, honestly, I haven't seen the prices go down in my area. Cars are expensive, even the cheap ones.

[Extraneus]

Yeah, BobS, lots of jobs "created or saved" in those dealerships, huh? I guess they'd have been ok if they'd have unionized in time, though. Too bad about that.

As for St. Jane's and the prior net worth issue, I was under the understanding that we'd be using oyster shells as currency. I'll start sewing some into my clothes.

[Old Lurker]

That was diamonds Clarice said to sew into our clothes, Ext. But oyster shells might work...

[Pofarmer]

His advice for Powell, Ridge, and others of the type: Shut up and go to hell.

Seems like pretty sound advice to me. I'll have to try to listen to the whole thing later.

[SlimGuy]

Steven Rattner is married to former National Finance Chair of Democratic Party, Maureen White.
Instapundit writes:

A reader notes something about “car czar” Steven Rattner: “Rattner is married to Maureen White, the former National Finance Chair for the Democratic Party.” The comment: “So one of the guys advising SecTreas on this thing is married to someone who used to be one of the people in charge of fundraising for the Democratic Party. This explains so much it’s scary.” Well, it bears a close look.

That doesn't look good.

lun

[JM Hanes]

Well, I plan to snip the seed-pearls off my white tie satins and sew veggie seeds in their place.

[Extraneus]

Yeah, OL, I suppose there could still be a small market for diamonds, especialy if the dress code stays as proposed above, but shells would surely provide more UV protection.

[Old Lurker]

"but shells would surely provide more UV protection."

Perhaps. But that would be counter to the new dress code evidenced by the two samples posted by BR.

[Danube of Thought]

Jane, my humble apologies for using a bad example in the lawyer rant. I probably should have thrown in "dirtball overpaid corporate defense attorney" as yet another description you don't see even though we all know the woods are full of them.

I know as certainly as I know my own name that you are both prominent and high-powered. And you always make me feel better.

[JM Hanes]

Hi Slim!

Fox News says Gibbs told reporters they'd have to ask Chrysler about the metrics for the closings, but last night I read that the lawyer for some of the dealers deposed one of the Chrysler folks who indicated that it was the Obama task force who set up the closings.

Fox also dismissed the story by finding nothing suspicious about the "50 randomly chosen" dealerships they looked at -- in what appears to be pretty cursory fashion to me.

[Captain Hate]

His advice for Powell, Ridge, and others of the type: Shut up and go to hell.

Mark can be a bit strident at times but I'm really tired of coddling idiots like Michael Medved does with regularity. Also Hugh Hewitt did a good job of destroying Lawrence O'Donnell last night (not that that's particularly difficult when he revealed how poorly read he is about terrorism for being a pundit that's trotted out with regularity as a purported "expert") but usually I refer to him as Huge Douche.

[Jane]

Awww Dot, I was just joshing with you. We both know that lots and lots of lawyers in every aspect of the law suck, and lots don't. My guess is every lawyer at JOM falls into the not sucking side of the profession.

But I'm still bringing grey goose!

[Charlie (Colorado)]

REPEAT: THIS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE AN ACCIDENT, OR RANDOM.

Sigh. That's not true. In fact, it's entirely possible that it is random.

Improbable, but entirely possible.

[Melinda Romanoff]

OL-

I'm not sick of Tsars, these yahoos can't even imagine what made the Tsar's , Tsars. They'd wet their pants, both ways.

Their idea of "Czars" is complete political control of all Departments under the Exec. Branch, then drag in what they get away with in the private sector. This is just machine politics in the making, just on a Federal level. Ambitious, And will give people the mind to refill the swamp that was DC before Washington loosed L'Enfant.

(Sorry Clarice, you might have to move.)

[BR]

Re: Obama's birth cert. Here are some highlights from the 5/28/09 radio interview of Philip Berg, second half:

That British intel, CIA and FBI already accessed the records in Kenya and know that he was born in Mombassa.

That after his grandmother there and other family became too outspoken about his birth having occurred in Mombassa, the Kenyan govt has put a gag order on all of them.

Berg's lawsuits continue. His site is Obamacrimes.com, IIRC.

Interesting military callers on the show, one representing a group of veterans who has filed a criminal complaint in TN and GA with attys genl very recently. One of them was visited 2 days ago by the Secret Service and is being investigated.

COLB vs birth cert: COLB is Certificate of Live Birth and cannot be used to obtain a passport, only a birth cert can. Berg alleges that Obama has never held a valid US passport: travelled in and out of the US and to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport, then got a diplomatic passport as a senator.

There may be no birth cert.
And therefore no eligibility as president.

[Jim Ryan]

Po, here's some viewing to pay you back for your Denninger link forecasting feral cities. Have a nice day.

[Melinda Romanoff]

ChaCo-

Don't give the COS any opportunity that this is random, there is NO way. It's an "opportunity" to remove funding sources for the opposition. They couldn't possibly pass up this chance. It's too easy.

This is the first chance to use the "hammer" of federal power and they intend to wield it. It has absolutely nothing to do with economics. They don't think that way. Never enters the their minds. They feel they are at war against anyone who stands in their way. War. Remember that. Economics will take care of itself, or, in their thinking, isn't impacted by their actions. They really and truly believe that. I've argued against some of their best (in private. I would've gotten dragged out the back if it was in a political venue And yes, I've seen that happen to vocal opponents too. Expensive when the cops do the dragging.)

There is NO chance there wasn't forethought and malice meant towards every one of the names on that list. No chance. I've seen this movie before.

And you don't want to see me on a beach, I'll be the one in the shade, smashing bugs.

[JM Hanes]

Lemon Eucalyptus, Melinda, from the helpful folks at TravMed.

[Pofarmer]

Thanks a lot Melinda.

However, you almost certainly have to be right, why force the unemployment of 10's of thousands in the teeth of a recession if you didn't have to. Bottom line is that you don't care what the consequences are. Can these folks really believe that actions regarding economic policy don't have consequences? If that's true, then they COULD precipitate an economic collapse.

[arizona bankruptcy attorney]

Having government in charge of business (or almost anything actually) introduces corruption to levels we've not seen before. Anyone who doubts that has their head in the sand. Watching government take over banks and the auto industry is the same as watching our nation slowly disintegrate. Sad but very true, folks.

[Melinda Romanoff]

JMH-

Thank you, but it's more a case of "lobster-itis" combined with my general appearance comparable to Zira, from the original Planet Of The Apes. No sun for me and my "fair" skin.

The bug smashing is merely recreational. And Fun!

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

aba:

I only have a smattering of bankruptcy experience, but enough to know to call in a bona fide bankruptcy attorney when confronted with a bankruptcy matter.

My offhand impression is that the current debacle in the auto industry is being handled with but scant lip service to established bankruptcy principles of law.

How do you see it?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Po-

The add in that their biggie benefactor, who just might be betting on that collapse, is their single biggest economic advisor. Just think "Open Society". He gets the economic benefits, and they get the power over what's left.

Same way he screwed the Bank of England, just this time he gets to play from the inside.

Scary stuff.

Night all.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

And as for the JOM exodus to a far flung idyllic caribbean destination, my bags have been packed for nearly a year. Are we near to selecting a site yet?

[Jim Ryan]

Melinda, I just read this passage in Wodehouse not an hour ago:

Colonel Wyvern had been dealing murderously with snails in the shadow of a bush....

[Wallace]

It appears that Reps outnumber Dems by something like 9-1, although the data seem to be hazy as to how many dealers are not donors at all.

That may not be as hazy as you think. You can see in the data that some of non donating dealers are getting axed, practically giving the Democrat donors a virtual lock in their particular regions. Thus, the way you analyze the data should not only looking for punitive closures against the Republican donors, but also rewarding the sole Democrat donor. If each of those actions results in either one, then you can conclude in near certainty that it is politically motivated.

[Jim Ryan]

Charlotteville,">http://www.man-o-warbaycottages.com/images/charlotteville6large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.man-o-warbaycottages.com/charlotteville6.html&usg=__hdq8tJXABBrsIdtjAhHhQbEWsd0=&h=533&w=800&sz=112&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=QKG5CxiHELLwnM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcharlotteville%2Btobago%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1">Charlotteville, Tobago.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

JR:

I'm drooling. D'ya have a napkin?

[Danube of Thought]

We seem to be getting a few random nutballs creeping in around here.

[Uncle BigBad]

About that JOM Island

Youkali

Translation

[Jim Ryan]

I'm telling you. Cousteau said third best reef in Caribbean. The snorkeling is amazing, ten feet from shore, right off your cabin.

[sylvia]

"Indeed the amount of extra spending identified, presumbably some or all of the incremental wages paid from the increased MW almost certainly contributed to the freefall in corporate earnings that has been the hallmark of the recession."

The hallmark of the recession has been the high housing prices and the housing foreclosures. The MW probably has little to do with corporate profits such as banking and the housing crisis has little to do with the MW as most minimum wage people do not have mortgages. The high housing costs have squeezed the middle class instead.

"You both seem to conclude that raising the MW did not lose jobs, rather gained them, even as the unemployment rate increased from 5% to soon-to-be 10+%."

I agree there needs to be more cause and effect to show that the MW was a stimulus, and that the high prices not the MW was the cause of the recession. One thing to look at is Wal Mart. Wal Mart also raised the MW and did well this last few years, so it was a net positive. Another is to look at is the unemployment in the MW jobs. As far as I know, and in my area, there are still plenty of those low end jobs available, so the unemployement is not big in that sector, hence the MW was not a factor in unemployment.
----
(a) Raising wages and raising the minimum wage are two very different things.

Yes but it has a trickle up effect. You gotta start somewhere.

(b) What happens to the income of the employers who raise other people's wages?

It will temporarily go down slightly. However, wages are a pyramid, by raising the MW you are negatively effecting fewer people at the top and positively effecting a greater number of people at the bottom. This net effect raises consumption across the country, which is the stimulus we all wanted, thereby trickling up and raising management profits eventually. Better to raise wages than just to raise taxes I think. And also raising wages increases taxes later anyway.

(c) Why should anyone raise an employee's wage if the employee is willing to work for that wage?

That's why we have to pass laws. We could import slaves to work for free.

[Uncle BigBad]

A more polished rendition

Youkali

[Pofarmer]

(c) Why should anyone raise an employee's wage if the employee is willing to work for that wage?

That's why we have to pass laws.

Central planning and communism, here we come.

Sylvia, the govt planners are not your friends.

[scoopa]

I just love Dem 'gates', hope this one flies big time. Thanks JOM for posting about this finally. Gateway is working overtime on it.

BTW - did anyone hear Hannity's radio show today? He read an awesome post that went down the list of "If George W. Bush insulted the Special Olympics, would you approve" and on and on. I don't know where it came from, but I want it in print to send to all my silly dem friends.

Can I come to the island too? I make KILLER jello shots!!

[Frau Jedöns]

Thanks for saying it, Melinda. It's been on my mind.

[JM Hanes]

Bien sûr, mon cher, nous chercherons une vraie(!) Youkali -- mais peut-être plus grande et, en fin, moins triste, oui? Je suis une croyante!

[Strawman Cometh]

Dealerquiddick
DealerQuidProQuoDick

[JM Hanes]

QPDeal :-)