Here We Go

Walter Pincus commences the drumbeat for allowing CIA interrogation techniques beyond those allowed in the Army Field Manual.  That is my call for the Obama flip-flop of the summer, so it's nice to see the CIA Leak Brigade make the expected appearance.

Over to Jim Geraghty for more.

THE TRUTH COMMISSION IS OUT THERE:  One more grim consequence of a truth commission is alluded to here:

Although President Obama has said no CIA officers will be prosecuted for their roles in harsh interrogations if they remained within Justice Department guidelines in effect at the time, agency personnel still face subpoenas and testimony under oath before criminal, civil and congressional bodies.

There is no way a truth commission would fail to establish that some of the CIA interrogations went too far.  And then what - Obama asks the DoJ to commence investigating and indicting CIA lifers?  Yeah, that will be the way for Obama to show he is tough on terror and can be trusted with national security.

I think a truth commission hurts Obama and the Dems more than it hurts Republicans but my full rebuttal to Matt Yglesias's alternative vision will have to remain in abeyance.

PLENTY MORE OUTRAGE WHERE THAT CAME FROM:  Don't forget the upcoming flip-flop on closing Gitmo within a year.

Comments

[hit and run]

TM:
Over to Jim Geraghty for more.

Well, let's turn to Geraghty to finish this thought properly:

Although President Obama has said no CIA officers will be prosecuted for their roles in harsh interrogations if they remained within Justice Department guidelines in effect at the time...

All statements from Barack Obama come with an expiration date. All of them.

You think the CIA personnel involved don't know this?

[narciso]

Sounds like Rockefeller, Pike and Church all over again, things I didn't recall when I was 6, well they're coming back with a vengeance; I guess disco is right around the corner(facepalm).Will Panetta defend
'his people' from subpoenas,I know it's a rhetorical question.

[Mikey NTH]

I do not think there will be a truth commission on this subject. The CIA has apparently learned to get either explicit or implicit approval from representatives and senators of both parties for what they do. If a truth commission is set up it will not be able to stop at just the CIA or the administration, it will reach down into powerful members of Congress from both parties. That is how you hamstring Congress' investigative powers - you get them involved up to their necks.

Too bad the Democrats didn't realize that they were placing themselves in this trap.

[Jack is Back!]

Truth Commission = South Africa reconciliation. Look how that turned out.

[clarice]

Hush your mouf ,TM..Let them walk into that briar patch..............
I'd say more but Mr PUK and I are busily working on brochures for the tres exclusif Chez Guevara..

[Semanticleo]

What's the hub-bub, Bub?

"Present and past CIA officials maintain that other legal techniques exist beyond those mentioned in the Field Manual that should be available for use. Panetta has said he would go to the president for authority to use them if he believed it necessary."

Obama already said he ain't interested in going after the low-level operative. This apple is rotten at the top, and that's the pay-grade that needs to provide personal accountability.

"I think a truth commission hurts Obama and the Dems more than it hurts Republicans"

Methinks this is more Republican attempts to manipulate, and force an outcome which keeps top Republican hotshots from the hotseat. Maybe some Dems get caught up in and that is A-OK with me.............

Who agrees with Maguire? Hayes? Oh well, he's been right so many times before, he shares that impeccable limelight with the Sith Lord.

"Steven Hayes, Dick Cheney’s official biographer, said, “Democrats who have been so enthusiastic about truth commissions have to be stopping and saying, OK, wait a second.”

[Mikey NTH]

No, Cleo - this was a CIA attempt to keep itself from being made the fall-guy in a partisan pissing contest. By getting approval of one kind or another from powerful members of both parties in Congress, the CIA insulates itself from a witchhunt.

You want to get the CIA and the Administration for waterboarding? Better make some room at the defence tables for Representatives and Senators from both parties. And if you think Congress is actually going to investigate itself, well let's just say that you are a trifle idealistic.

[narciso]

It does seem like 'an utterly stupid and meaningless gesture", so who in this crew went to Dartmouth in the early 60s.

[Curtiss]

The Truth Commission is only a talking point to be used as a threat. It's not really intended to be instituted for obvious reasons already stated.

The lack of a Truth Commission is something to blame on the obstructionists in the other party. Until there aren't enough of them to obstruct it. Or until the other party sees some benefit in not obstructing it.

Like now.

[Semanticleo]

"Better make some room at the defence tables for Representatives and Senators from both parties."

I am totally bi-partisan on this issue.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Throw every bastard and bitch in Leavenworth...

[Topsecretk9]

All statements from Barack Obama come with an expiration date. All of them.

You think the CIA personnel involved don't know this?

Great point Hit. They must also know of his penchant for bus wheels too.

[Topsecretk9]

I am totally bi-partisan on this issue.

Cleo,

You problem is you think anyone here really cares what you think on any issue. No one really does. At all.

[Mikey NTH]

Iam totally bi-partisan on this issue.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Throw every bastard and bitch in Leavenworth...

Awfully principled stance you got there, though one rather easy to take when you know that the chips are never going to fall.

Keep the pose up, it really is you.

[Keep up the water torture, Walter.]

Heh, check out commenter Al,#12, at the Yglesias link.

[narciso]

Well Dawn Johnson, hasn't been confirmed, have Lederman and Co, so the OLC really hasn't been able to reverse things, substantially, hey, you take victories were you can find them

[Danube of Thought]

Concerning prosecutions, there simply won't be any--period. There won't be any prosecutions regardless of who Obama says will or will not be prosecuted.

There will be no prosecutions because a crime does not occur in this country unless a statute has been violated. (Recall that when Oswald shot JFK, he violated no federal statute then on the books. He would have been tried in Texas state court for murder.)

The one federal statute against torture simply has not been violated in this instance, and Eric Holder knows it. (Indeed, he virtually admitted it in some extremely ham-handed testimony last week.)

No attorney general, and no US Attorney, is going to file high-profile charges of this kind knowing that he has zero chance of success. It's a career-ender.

[Neo]

I've enjoyed watching the "Progressive echo chamber" at work with Matt Yglesias creating his own reality.

A psych major would have a field day, assuming they aren't already posting there.

[narciso]

So, I ask again, why are they wasting time on this garbage, even if they don't prosecute they'll leak more information that we didn't
to release.

[Neo]

From Matt's "echo chamber", this interesting news about an old thread ...

Oh, boy, see Pincus’s WaPo latest from his leakers in the CIA. They might just decide to straighten out the record about Joe Wilson if the Democrats keep banging the drum about being lied into war.

[Larking around the meadows.]

Sunflowers bloom like crazy, huh?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

"let's just say that you are a trifle idealistic."

Translations: "You're an idiot."

[Semanticleo]

"No one really does. At all."

Hey bow-wow....you've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a crap that you don't give a crap.

[Semanticleo]

"....keep banging the drum about being lied into war."

Count on it, squash.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

That #12 comment does nicely, doesn't it?

The point about Pelosi shows that even left-wing Democrats approved of pouring water on terrorists heads, a few years ago. So Pelosi not only shows that what the Bushies did was eminently reasonable (how can it be unreasonable if even Pelosi approved?), but that the Democrats now are just playing politics with national security by disapproving of something they approved of a few years ago.

This whole episode reinforces a few main themes: the Republicans are the tough guys when it comes to terrorism, and the Democrats are wusses who don’t know what they are doing. And that the Republicans have principles when it comes to national security, whereas the Democrats are so craven that they will take one position on a national seciryt matter in private and another in public. This is a win-win situation for Republicans.

[Semanticleo]

"they'll leak more information that we didn't
to release."

That's the messy part of a Republic.

Lance this boil on the body politic or die from infection.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

[Y]ou've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a crap that you don't give a crap.

Ah, but then you've mistaken him for someone who gives a crap that you don't give a crap that he doesn't give a crap.

So there.

[Semanticleo]

"This is a win-win situation for Republicans."

I encourage y'all to continue. It's in EVERYOME's best interest that you do.

Carry on.............

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Lance this boil on the body politic or die from infection.

Because, after all, the US long ago collapsed from the use of the real water treatment on prisoners in the Philippines 110 years ago.

[Bumbling through the blossoms.]

Leo, and drumbeats. The CIA obviously is tired of being trashed for doing their jobs. Maybe one of the professionals over there is about ready to drop a dime on Valerie Plame. They can't really be happy about the train wreck that affair was. And it's not as if Joe Wilson was really honest about what he reported from Niger. Remember, he thought that Saddam had biological and chemical WMD as he argued in a 2/6/03 op-ed in the LATimes.

[Sue]

Neo,

That is our very own Kim that you quote. She might also be blooming sunflowers too.

[Neo]

OK you got me

[Semanticleo]

"the use of the real water treatment on prisoners in the Philippines 110 years ago."

Or the defacto slavery the South continued to exercise until 140 years after the Emancipation Proclamation. Or Women's Suffrage, because those two ideas threatened the status quo.

Because we don't need to change what's already perfect, do we Chaco?

[Stephanie]

Wow... didn't know the South practiced slavery in what... 2007. Musta been some democrats in blackface acting as mayor of Atlanta, Birmingham, Macon etc for the last 25 years or so...

BTW, where is Jane Hamsher and her makeup bag?

[Semanticleo]

'check out comment #12...."

LMFAO !

So typical, the spittle is flying with each sputter..'but, but, bbbbut.....you have a typo!!!

When yer argument fails, find SOMETHING wrong and yer self-justification is somehow salvaged.

[MayBee]

So typical, the spittle is flying with each sputter..'but, but, bbbbut.....you have a typo!!!

When yer argument fails, find SOMETHING wrong and yer self-justification is somehow salvaged.

I love a comment that also serves as an illustration of the point being made.

[Semanticleo]

"I love a comment that also serves as an illustration of the point being made.'

MayBee; I don't think you were around when Chaco found himself reduced to chiding me for a typo, instead of addressing the issue.

So. I don't think you really understand the point, but then, yer comment suffices.

[Mikey NTH]

You can change things all you want going forward, Cleo. You cannot, however make something illegal and prosecute people now for actions that were legal when they did it. That's called an ex-post facto law, and we don't do those.

Waterboarding was legal. The administration authorized and both parties in both houses of Congress approved waterboarding. There won't be any truth commissions on this.

So, carry on with your moral posturing, since it won't actually cost you anything.

[Richard Aubrey]

Presume the lefties are right and Bush&Co. didn't save us since 9-11. It was all luck.
Luck can turn.
Can O afford to have bad luck coincide with a perception he'e easy on national security?
He'll have to either divorce himself from this nonsense and make it Congress' fault if something happens--a dem Congress he can't control or go around--or keep on doing the Bush thing.
What might--should but probably isn't--be keeping him awake nights is the possiblity it really was luck and nothing he can think of will change that. And luck can turn.

[sam]

As I said earlier, there is not going to be any "truth" commission or prosecution regarding this matter.

Obama and the Democrats have no stomach for investigating what Nancy Pelosi knew, and when she started lying about it.

All this brouhaha is only meant to keep hope alive for the Loony Left, so they keep writing campaign checks.

[Semanticleo]

" make something illegal and prosecute people now for actions that were legal when they did it."

It's legality is the crux, or would you rather just quote from Richard Milhouse Nixon?

"I'm saying, when the President does it, it's not illegal"

[JayC]

Drat.

I had "ending white guilt" in the pool. Well, I guess breaking that promise will have to wait till next year.

[Mikey NTH]

Try rather "I'm saying that if it was legal then, you can't make it illegal now and prosecute me for my actions then."

Wishing doesn't make it so, Cleo.

[maryrose]

Looking backward won't accomplish anything. Game,set and match to the republicans and Dick Cheney!

[Semanticleo]

Just as long as we don't prosecute Obama for slaughtering those innocent Pakistanis, for continuing to hold the Guantanamo detainees against their will, and for the white phosphorus air raids on Afghanistan, I'm all in favor of Truth Commissions.

But if you wingnuts are going to try to insist on the WHOLE truth, well, too bad for you. We won.

[PeterUK]

Amazing how the left sound like the political wing of militant Islamism.The Vietcong knew the Left would fight the good fight on the home front.Who is winding up today's little soldiers for the revolution.
Obviously a witless wazoo like Septic has had this tripe planted in the void between her ears.

[Semanticleo]

"Game,set and match to the republicans and Dick Cheney!"

Yet another member of he team that got their butts handed to them calmly declares 'Victory', then departs the field.

[PeterUK]

Maggie Thatcher was my MILF because I admire her Nazi Thuggery.................

[stumbley]

I think Cleo needs to have some bamboo shoots driven under its fingernails while being sent feet-first into a shredder with battery cables strapped to its genitals.

Yeah, that ought to do it.

[Brian G.]

For years, it seemed that the CIA's primary mission was to burn Bush and Republicans every chance they got. And they were quite effective. Now that the Dems don't need them anymore to leak everything they could to discredit Bush, I am enjoying watching the Dems throw them under the bus.

[Semanticleo]

PUKe;

When you purloin my moniker you might want to brush up on yer prose. The lack of verve in your sentence structure gives you away.

[PeterUK]

"But if you wingnuts are going to try to insist on the WHOLE truth, well, too bad for you. We won".

Try not to see it as you winning but America losing.
Just why are the lefties dredging for old battles to fight? Is it because they know the Once isn't up to the job?

[Semanticleo]

No offense. I just don't want to be credited with either yer ideas, or yer writing skill.

[john b]

It is way too early to call this the Flip-Flop of the Summer. There are much more to come, any one of which could be real contenders. I nominate the "net spending cut" as the winner. YMMV

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Because we don't need to change what's already perfect, do we Chaco?

You know, I'm increasingly convinced that you can't actually muster the mental resources to even understand an argument you yourself proposed, much less form one.

[Semanticleo]

"You know, I'm increasingly convinced.." that you can't answer a simple question.

[PeterUK]

Semanticleo
Making a bogus post in my name then accusing me of purloining yours is so peurile as to need a diaper.
Do you realise how completely stupid this makes you look? Are you really ready for adult discourse? Perhaps you should eschew the keyboard and go back to writing "bum" on your bedroom wall?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

yer writing skill.

There's irony for you.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Leo, you asserted that if we didn't root out the infection of "waterboarding" now it would destroy the country. I pointed out that the country had survived worse. You tried a red herring about me thinking everything in the past was perfect.

I could point out it was a red herring, but I'm more interested in understanding you at this point. I could imagine, as some do, that you're actually purposefully using these as tactics. But the fact is, I don't recall ever seeing you present an actual argument, or stay with one you started.

The only other possibility seems to be that you have some mental defect that makes it impossible for you to grasp and participate in an argument.

In general, study of the humanities should lead to that skill being enhanced. Curious.

[PeterUK]

"yer writing skill."

It's an affectation Charlie,she picks these things up on other boards and flogs them to death.Poor sad little bastard.

[wuzzagrunt]

<< There will be no prosecutions because a crime does not occur in this country unless a statute has been violated....

No attorney general, and no US Attorney, is going to file high-profile charges of this kind knowing that he has zero chance of success. It's a career-ender. >>

All they have to do is get a Special Prosecutor to investigate until somebody makes enough inconsistent statements for a perjury charge to stick. The Democrats will get a few heads on their pikes, and no substantive debate about the legality of waterboarding will need to have taken place.

[Rick Ballard]

There is simply nothing quite as exciting and interesting as watching an exchange with an invisible "enhanced" idiot. A truly great use of time and space.

Fortunately, Trollblocker has the capacity to "fix" the problem in its entirety.

[Semanticleo]

"Curious."

How is it you are CERTAIN that SERE guidelines
re; 'no death' disclaimer was issued to waterboardees?

[Semanticleo]

"Trollblocker has the capacity to "fix" the problem in its entirety."

I love trollblocker, Marmalard.

[The Ace]

Count on it, squash.

Posted by: Semanticleo

That's funny, cleow. The problem is, you nor anyone can state the "lie" nor why any "lies" were necessary.

Further, I love the continued implication that Republicans, despite being "hillbillies," that are "uneducated" and "inbreds" and all the rest, are somehow able to easily trick you brilliant, highly educated Demcrats so easily.

It must be fun putting your eggs in such a silly basket.

Anyway, this trip down memory lane is always fun:

EDWARDS: Well, the first thing I should say is I take responsibility for my vote. Period. And I did what I did based upon a belief, Chris, that Saddam Hussein’s potential for getting nuclear capability was what created the threat. That was always the focus of my concern. Still is the focus of my concern.

So did I get misled? No. I didn’t get misled.

MATTHEWS: Did you get an honest reading on the intelligence?

EDWRADS: But now we’re getting to the second part of your question.

I think we have to get to the bottom of this. I think there’s clear inconsistency between what’s been found in Iraq and what we were told.

And as you know, I serve on the Senate Intelligence Committee. So it wasn’t just the Bush administration. I sat in meeting after meeting after meeting where we were told about the presence of weapons of mass destruction. There is clearly a disconnect between what we were told and what, in fact, we found there.

You voted for that guy for vice president you dipshit clown.

[Semanticleo]

How dare you wingnuts question my absolute moral standing!

I have an imaginary son in Iraq, you heartless bastards!

[Semanticleo]

"Making a bogus post in my name then accusing me of purloining yours is so peurile as to need a diaper."

Stop posting in my name. Go back to yer granny porn.

[Semanticleo]

Keep looking. You'll find a Thatcher look-alike.

[Semanticleo]

"I love the continued implication that Republicans, despite being "hillbillies," that are "uneducated" and "inbreds" and all the rest, are somehow able to easily trick you brilliant, highly educated Demcrats so easily."

The prosecution rests................

Ned Beatty was raped by Hillbillies in the movie 'Deliverance'. Ned must be gay.

[The Ace]

I love cleown continuing to post about waterboarding - which again, the Democrats in Congress refused to make illegal - as if it is some sort of moral scourage on America.

Waterboarding is more popular than Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid combined, you imbecile.

[Semanticleo]

I'm very sorry for my ravings. As well as being bi-partisan I'm bipolar.

[The Ace]

The prosecution rests................

Hilarious cleown.

Remember, vote for Democrats, dumb Republicans trick us all the time!

Good grief are you embarrassing.

[Mikey NTH]

Brian G: The better question would be why was the CIA behaving that way? Was it because they were closet Democrats? Or was it because very large and very fragile egos had been hurt in the intelligence reorganizations after 9/11 - turf had been lost, advice wasn't being taken, promotions weren't being given to those who felt they were due, etc.

My guess goes with 'fragile egos being hurt'. But then, that's just the bureaucrat in me.

[Mikey NTH]

The appearance of sense in his commenting gives him away, Cleo.

[po]

Waterboarding was illegal the entire time. That some in Congress may have known it was contemplated or even employed at the direction of office of the President does not make it magically legal. Additionally, it's not just the waterboarding - it's the torture programs of which waterboarding was but a part that is the problem. We ran a gulag system, having bought the manual from the inventors so to speak and they didnt even realize it. Beautiful.

And now it's CYA for all involved, even tangently. And that the main players tried to paper the minor ones they might need later to back off really should come as no surprise.

[Cecil Turner]

"Waterboarding was illegal the entire time."

Except when we did it at SERE School, where it was perfectly appropriate? This was, and still is, a silly argument. If the waterboard was undoubtedly illegal under the torture statute, we need literally thousands of investigations.

One might make the case that the excessive use of waterboarding by the CIA in a particular case amounted to torture (though I personally find that unpersuasive) . . . the idea that using a training practice on three of the worst of a bad lot is in any way similar to running a gulag is risible nonsense.

[Mars vs Hollywood]

Not to mention that given some of the things being cited as "torture" were routinely done by draft-era drill instructors.

Let the show trials of crusty old veterans commence.

[bad]

Cecil, maybe the interrogators laughed evily while waterboarding the terror suspects.....

[LAN3]

I hope these flip-flops will get more attention-- I'm tired of reading how Obama is so wonderful for flip-flopping on the torture-photos and deciding against releasing them. Geez, Mr. President, don't wear yourself out in the first 100 days. What was for his spin-artists an exercise in finding a happy medium between his promises and the realities of office were, in fact, a no-brainer move for everyone else who has looked at the issue. Yet the left is celebrating this flip-flop as though it's a testament to Obama's courage to face the realities he couldn't have predicted during the campaign. Well, we've got a few more substantial flip-flops to look at here-- it remains to be seen how they'll be converted into victories for the left.

[Cow Rie]

Obama flip flop of the Summer?
He has a ton already - the result of a lack
of principles. Obama is the Imelda Marcos of Flip Flops. He has HUGE closets of them due to speaking out of both sides of his mouth on many issues. How can you trust Obama? Only a fool can.

[clarice]

So far I'm seeing no let up or real setbacks in the Obama power grab juggernaut. Am I missing something?

When will the debt slaves revolt?
When cars cost them a great deal more and are too flimsy to be safe on US highways? When coke is taxed?
When they can no longer get credit or jobs?

How much more before they awake?

[Cecil Turner]

. . . maybe the interrogators laughed evily . . .

Or even twiddled a mustache (a la Snidely Whiplash)? Yikes! And though that might meet the [very dubious] Eric Holder standard for why one was okay and the other was baaad , it makes very little sense to go after the authors of the memos rather than the interrogators themselves . . . unless the "intent" emphasis is yet another smokescreen for politically motivated hypocrisy. (Oh, no, say it ain't so!)

[Peter]

Sometimes I wish I could be a Democrat, I could wake up each morning in a whole new world.

Instead, I remember watching TV on 9/11. In all those horrible moments I also remember some comedy. Congress running, panicked, down the Capitol steps. Funny, that, now so many of them claim they wouldn't authorise treating a suspected jihadi mean. Hmmph.When I was in Kindergarten we had fire drills, we walked out, holding hands, two by two. Five year olds were more disciplined in an emergency than Congress members and staff. And now they would like us to believe that those brave guardians of liberty wouldn't authorise rough treatment.

In the days following 9/11 they would have authorised blowtorches to the gonads. Any truth commissions will bring this out. Therefore, no truth commissions. And no grand juries, either. Remember, we still have the Fifth Ad.

[gnuga]

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