Name That Party - Special CYA With The CIA Edition

The NY Times reports on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's credibility problem with the CIA enhanced interrogation program and gives us a couple of chances to lay "Name That Party!".  The Times open with some background and a warm-up opportunity to play "Name That Party":

WASHINGTON — Congressional Republicans on Friday accused Democrats of full complicity in the approval of the Bush administration’s brutal interrogations, citing a new accounting that shows briefings for some top Democrats on waterboarding and other harsh methods starting in 2002.

The new chart of briefings, prepared by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, was the first full listing of briefings to members of Congress and their aides. It appears to call into question the longstanding assertion of Speaker Nancy Pelosi that she was never told that waterboarding and other methods were actually used, only that the Central Intelligence Agency believed they were legal and could be used.

Adm. Denis Blair, the Director of National Intelligence, was appointed by Barack Obama.

Next, Ms. Pelosi's tortured denials:

The chart said that at the first briefing, on Sept. 4, 2002, Ms. Pelosi, then the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, and Representative Porter J. Goss, the committee’s Republican chairman, were given a “description” of the interrogation methods that “had been employed” against a prisoner, Abu Zubaydah.

On Friday, the speaker issued a statement defending her previous account.

“Of the 40 C.I.A. briefings to Congress reported recently in the press, I was only briefed once, on Sept. 4, 2002, as I have previously stated.” She said she was “briefed on interrogation techniques the administration was considering using in the future” and that the techniques were determined to be legal.

What?  The CIA was proposing to commit in the future what Nancy Pelosi's base has now reminded her are outrageous crimes against humanity.  But that was OK with Ms. Pelosi because the CIA hadn't actually done anything yet?  How does Congressional oversight work in Pelosi-world - conspiring to commit war crimes in the future gets a pass, but actually committing them is a problem?

The Times moves on:

Ms. Pelosi also noted that Leon E. Panetta, the director of the C.I.A., had warned lawmakers that the descriptions of briefings provided in the new report were based on notes and recollections of C.I.A. officers. “In the end, you and the committee will have to determine whether this information is an accurate summary of what actually happened,” Mr. Panetta wrote to several members of Congress.

Leon Panetta threw her a lifeline.  Hmm, is that Leon Panetta, career intelligence professional?  Not exactly - how about, Leon Panetta, career Democratic pol?

Perhaps we can hear from another Democrat.  Eric Holder's Justice Department prepared a narrative describing the evolution of the OLC legal opinions.  Their is a brief mention of the Pelosi briefing; the level of detail won't convict anyone but the verb tense cuts against Pelosi:

In the fall of 2002, after the use of interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah, CIA records indicate that the CIA briefed the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the Committee on the interrogation.

"The interrogation", not "the proposed interrogation".  Would the DoJ lawyers really have fluffed that detail?

In any case, Ms. Pelosi's non-excuse excuses nothing.  She admits to being aware of what she now imagines is criminal activity before the fact, and is only getting a whisper of support from a career Democrat who is trying to walk a line between a troubled House Speaker and the troubled CIA professionals who have been worried about a shift in the political winds from the outset of this program.

Well.  Rep. Pete Hoekstra says that the CIA files actually contain a more detailed accounting.  One might think so - per this Times story, CIA officials were worried about their political and legal exposure if and when the political climate changed.  A related anecdote appears in this Times account of the genesis of the enhanced interrogation program in 2002:

Mr. Tenet's descriptions of each proposed interrogation method was so clinical and specific that at one briefing Mr. Ashcroft objected, saying that cabinet officials should approve broad outlines of important policies, not the fine details, according to someone present. The attorney general later complained that he thought Mr. Tenet was looking for cover in case controversy erupted, the person said.

I think Ashcroft pegged it.  And if Tenet was being cautious with the Bush Administration, why would that caution lapse with the Congressional Democrats, who were clearly the most likely to turn on him in the future?

Comments

[verner]

Shall we remind everyone AGAIN that George Tenet was the Director during these troubled times. That's right, George Tenet--the CLINTON appointee. George Tenet who KNEW what snakes democrats are.

Not only did they tell the broad about WBing, they likely told her how many times!

And I can see her acting all butch--"sure it's tough enough..." Gee, I hope that's in the transcript.

This stuff is SO going away next week.

Obama is a total clown. He aimed the gun at Cheney, and ended up shooting himself in the bottom. And that's hard to do.

[hit and run]

TM:
How does Congressional oversight work in Pelosi-world - conspiring to commit war crimes in the future gets a pass, but actually committing them is a problem?

Well, in http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/05/pelosi_torture_and_the_wilderness_of_mirrors.php>Ambinder-world there was such a climate of dissent quashing under President Bush's muscle-flexing, that Pelosi gets a pass.

CIA officials and intelligence committee staff members will tell you that members rarely, if ever, object to anything in these briefings. Imagine the multiplier effect of 9/11, when most Democrats were intimidated by the muscle-flexing of the Bush Administration.
__________________________
But back in 2002, when more Americans (probably) supported those techniques than they do now (and most Americans support at least some of the EITs), and when Pelosi herself did not have the means or the legal knowledge to perform her own analysis of the legality of the techniques, and when the climate of dissent was quashed -- her reaction is understandable... maybe not, from our current perspective, excusable, although there is a range of opinion on that question.

(courtesy of bad in a previous thread)

One suspects she would have actually had to do the pouring onto the terrorists faces for her to be in, you know, hot water in Ambinder-world.

But even then -- in that climate and under that flexing -- there would be a range of opinion on that.

[patch]

I said before that if the Democrats such as Nancy Pelosi kept lying we would see the "Memorandum For Record" done by the briefers being released.

If the lies keep coming, next will be the release of the video/audio recording that were made of the briefings. Just a question of which is released first; video or audio?

My bet is on the audio recordings, but I've been known to be wrong.

[hit and run]

Whereas the climate Bush was operating under, and the muscle-flexing of "you-didn't-connect-the-dots" Dems like Nancy and the media is not understandable in Ambinder-world.

[verner]

WaPo December 2007: In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

Well, according to this--written BEFORE Panettta's non denial denial--Pelosi was definitely there.

Now, who could those "at least" TWO members who had no objections be? Could we go back and check the newly released briefing roster to find out? And do we think the Wa Po would have considered it newsworthy that Goss wanted the CIA to "push harder?"

[verner]

LUN to entire waPo piece

[verner]

Now, according to the CIA briefing notes LUN,

Exactly 4 members of congress were briefed in Sept 2002: Graham, Pelosi, Shelby and Goss.

[Mark]

Full disclosure of intelligence proceedings is never a good thing. Right now we have no momentum for a SJC/HJC pony show, no special prosecutor, and no "truth comission." Although verner thinks this is all going away in a week, that depends on Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller accepting their guilt in complicity with EIT. So far, Pelosi and Harman are both puffing up feathers. But the natural progression of this spat between the CIA and ranking congressional dems is more inquiry, more exposure, and less security for our country. Whether they keep bullshitting or buckle under there are enough ambitious Dems who could benefit from a change of leadership.

I'd guess it's only going away if this he-said she-said public war gets put down and we get a new scandal to focus on.

Although the Harman treason and Pelosi lies make for good entertainment, I think the leaks were a strategically bad move if the goal is moving beyond this torture focus.

[verner]

And then we have this little Plum in the Wa Po LUN.

Gee, even if you swallow the cod liver oil that Pelosi didn't know in 2002, it is UNDENIABLE that her top aid knew in 2003.

Although, since Mr. Sheehy was on the roster for the Sept 2002 meeting, one must ask what he was doing during that meeting? Were his ears plugged up? Did he sneak out to the cloakroom to snort a line?

Enquiringly minds would like to know?

And Mr. Sheehy, don't fall on the sword for Mme. Botox. She's not worth it.

[verner]

Mark, it's all going away in a week unless they are all f-ing idiots.

This is a lose lose for the Obama administration. The longer it goes on, the worse the democrat party looks.

The majority of American voters would have been quite happy to hear that KSM was skinned alive and thrown into a tank of Piranhas. And most people think it was a foolish, dangerous move to expose vital national security secrets. Combine this with the "apology" tour, and you have the image of a weak buffon in the Oval office.

All the repubs need to do is pop the pop corn, and sit back while dems tear themselves apart. They already have the public on their side--and will really do so when the CIA memo Cheney is requesting is released.

It is beyond a reasonable doubt that Pelosi knew--unless you're a parse tongue democrat errand boy.

If they don't see all of this, Obama and crew are even dumber than I think they are.

[Oh, those guys and their memories. Hah, hah.]

Does anyone else wonder how the career professionals at the CIA are going to view their new boss publicly inviting Congress to doubt the memories and record keeping of said career professionals?

[verner]

Well, some nutroot types have suggested that this is really and Obama purge of all the non-loyalists in the company. That would be, whatever competent agents are left in the building.

Maybe so.

But if he thinks they will go quietly into the night...

In the meanwhile, the American voting public is on the sidelines watching all of the clowns tumble out of the teeny tiny car..

[PeterUK]

"How does Congressional oversight work in Pelosi-world -"

It was simply an oversight.

[Oh, those guys and their memos. Hah, hah.]

And what I particularly like is that this question was put out there with the news that Obama had struggled for a month with the decision to release the memos. Suppose that is true. Surely he didn't struggle alone; that 'month' means he took copious advice about the matter. Which means that his broad political advice missed the catastrophe this would become, his own political instincts blew it, and probably Leon Panetta blew it too.

Good times.

[Mark]

I hope you are right, but I don't like the escalation.

[PeterUK]

"And I can see her acting all butch--"sure it's tough enough..." Gee, I hope that's in the transcript."

More like,"It wasn't as soft as this in my Daddy's day".

[Oh, those guys. No more hah, hahs.]

All Panetta had to do was consult the nearest intelligence professionals. I presume he did. I presume he passed their opinion up the line. I presume that advice was ignored. Which explains their dismay and anger over this business. I suspect they'll not be mollified easily.

Aren't they getting funding cut badly, too?

[Pofarmer]

it's all going away in a week unless they are all f-ing idiots.

How about "in spite of them all being f-ing idiots?

I think that's a truer statement.

[verner]

"And what I particularly like is that this question was put out there with the news that Obama had struggled for a month with the decision to release the memos."

Oh BS. That fraud just wanted to "Pretend" to look like Abe Lincoln, or, more likely, Jesus in the garden sweating blood... GIVE ME A BREAK. They just waited until they thought the timing was right.

[Hey, what happened to those psychologists anyway? Are they still available?]

Yet another thing. Any future event of domestic terrorism is going to immediately bring the question to everyone's mind whether wobbliness on interrogation helped cause it. There is no way to answer that question, and it doesn't even have to be explicitly brought up. But I'll bet Cheney will do so anyway.

[verner]

"I hope you are right, but I don't like the escalation."

Well, none of us do Mark. I fear for my country. But what can we expect when we have a total putz in the Oval Office?

[Oh, those guys and dolls.]

Yeah, verner, I wondered if that month of agonizing was just bullshit. But I"m tellin' ya, whoever recommended that the memos be released made a much worse mistake than the guy flying Air Force One by the Statue of Liberty. This smells badly of Emanuel or Axelrod, and of the two, I'd take Axelrod. Surely Emanuel knew that Congressional Democrats knew about it.

Which brings up.......how have Rahm and Nancy been lately? Does Chicago or Baltimore rule?

[Do you know who you're talking to?]

Moral preening is always hubritic. I suppose that thought is last in their minds now that they can bully widders and orphings.

[verner]

Red diaper baby Axelrod with a big fat nudge from Soros. If you'll remember, Rahm was trying to diffuse damage on the Sunday shows, and trying to contain the radiation by insisting there would be no prosecutions, and that the release would be the end of it.

My first guess would be that he was on the imaginary "do not release" team. As a former Clintonista, he is much more pragmatic on those types of issues--remember rendition? Or maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

In any case, didn't work. And he ended up looking like a fool.

[Mark]

verner:
I guess my point was that the popcorn may not be all that enjoyable if it doesn't really go away in a week, and I am less optimistic than you are it will.

[verner]

Mark, you'll notice I said, unless they're TFIs. Evidence thus far points to the fact that they are of course.

At this point, there's nothing much we can do, except continue to point out their idiocy, and pray that the public has enough sense left to notice--and will boot the clowns out ASAP.

[A pox on both from the House.]

Frankly, Mark, I'm enjoying the fact that the CIA is tangling with this Gang of Thieves and Bullies. Maybe they'll both be diminished by the time it is over. Congressional Democrats could do that, were they to find the will.

[verner]

Yeah Pox, how many of them are sitting in their cramped little offices dreaming of being the next Frank Church. Pathetic losers.

[clarice]

verner beat me to it--the wapo article is the second shoe dropping. It also notes that Harman did write a timely letter suggesting the procedure went too far...Pelosi didn't and Harman confirmed the presence of Pelosi's aide at the 2003 briefing.
So we have the CIA vs Pelosi
and
A continuation of the Harman vs, Pelosi match.

Fun, fun, fun for everyone (except nancy_)

[narciso]

There shouldn't have been one moment when Bybee, Addington & Yoo; should have been under this witchunt. Frankly they deserve
the Medal of Freedom for their actions. As do Mitchell, Jessen, Martinez, I'd hold off with Kirikaou. because he set this ball rolling, describing the treatment of Zubeydah as torture, and he won his prize, as a House staffer.

All the reservation, no scratch that full throated contempt, I had for Panetta's selection as DCI has been affirmed, And Brennan, who was turned down for the job, repeats his performance just like the former
Tenet factotum he is, when Baer described him in all but name, in "See No Evil". He really is a potted plant, along with General Jones.

[Can't we kneecap 'em?]

It's beginning to smell a lot like Pelosi was one of those who asked if the methods were harsh enough. That explains her panic, and the boldness of the CIA in pushing this.

[MayBee]

This is difficult for the left (and the press) because they were allowed for years to pretend waterboard and other EITs were unforgivable torture. They got themselves worked up and now it's hard to climbdown. They are going to go down kicking and screaming, but they'll let it go soon enough.

when Pelosi herself did not have the means or the legal knowledge to perform her own analysis of the legality of the techniques,

What's funny about that, Ambinder, is most of the pundits, bloggers, and code pinkers and general "it's torture!" screamers don't have the legal knowledge to perform their own analysis of of the legality of the techniques. Yet we're supposed to listen to them?

And you know who else didn't have the legal knowledge and therefore sought it...George W Bush.

We either have to accept the premise that GWB just wanted to torture and therefore bullied everyone into letting him. Or they all wanted to keep the country safe so they accepted expert opinion on the outward limits of what could be done.

[verner]

Clarice, I think we're now getting the message from both the NYT and Wa Po that it's time for Nan to quit the pretending, and the Obama administration to grow up. They've given them as much cover as they can without being beyond their usual laughing stock selves.

And now the torture shrills like Sully can cry into the wilderness, with no one but idealistic leftist college students there to hear their wails of anguish.

[clarice]

Let's see if she gets the message or continues on to her self-destruction..

[Captain Hate]

Frankly, Mark, I'm enjoying the fact that the CIA is tangling with this Gang of Thieves and Bullies.

Me too; this is win/win of the highest order. The only thing the CIA really puts forth any effort on is meddling in domestic politics since their foreign intel has been half-assed at best. The place has needed a thorough fumigation for a long time and if they can sack a few quislings and traitors on their way out so much the better.

[verner]

Well clarice, unfortunately for the 'toxed one, it's not completely up to her at this point.

She who lives by the moonbats, shall die by the moonbats.

She's kind of maneuvered herself into a corner.

[Captain Hate]

Let's see if she gets the message or continues on to her self-destruction.

Anybody who saw her past performances in getting thoroughly flummoxed by Stephanapoulis's softball Sunday lobs has to consider her incapable of acting in her own best interests.

[verner]

And let's add Clarice, it not like Mme. has made great friends with her heavy handed ways. How many republicans would have a kind word to say about her? How many centrist democrats?

If her own base decides they want her gone...well.

[PeterUK]

"As a former Clintonista, he is much more pragmatic on those types of issues--remember rendition?"

Pragmatism being a euphemism for unprincipled.

[verner]

Pretty much PUK. Unprincipled is Rahm's middle name.

[PeterUK]

Clarice,

"Let's see if she gets the message or continues on to her self-destruction.."

She is Daddy's little princess,all her life she has got what she wanted.What do you think?

[PeterUK]

Looks like the world's first case of Botoxicide.

[clarice]

Assuming this costs her the moonbat vote and therefore her Congressional seat ( an optimistic view), does anyone seriously think she'll be ousted as speaker over this?I don't.

I expect if polls show her losing support in SF her power as speaker might diminish as the election nears.

[Danube of Thought]

I am very solidly in Mark's corner on principle on this one. Ever since the Church Committee detroyed the nation's ability to gather foreign intelligence, I've felt strongly that that function is one that all parties, no matter how partisan, should have an unspoken agreement never to discuss in public. In the final analysis, you simply have to trust in the fundamental decency of your society and nation, recognize that our "values" necessarily get bruised at the margins where we confront the barbarians, and leave the whole damn thing under wraps and off limits.

But that genie is long since out of the bottle, and now the blood is running in the streets. In short, I no longer feel very much constrained by principle.

The Democrats and the left started this thing, and they started it for the rawest of political purposes. (Think back to fat Dick Durbin railing about Nazis at Guantanamo, for example.)

Now I'd like to see the whole thing out on the table. If Obama decides--after "agonizing"--to release the memos he wants to put before the public, then let us see the ones he doesn't want to let out. Let us see them all. Let's find out, for once and for all, who knew what and when.

Whatever damage this mess can do to the country has already been done. Let's have a full and fair accounting of it all, and maybe the result will be an enduring lesson to these people on when to keep their goddam mouths shut.

[clarice]

Flopping Aces has a post indicating thatLamar Alexander confronted Holder squarely and said if we're going to have hearings on the DoJ prosecutors memos shouldn't we consider what Congressional leaders knew of the program and when and Holder could not and did not object to the expansion of the inquiry.

Talk about The Won opening Pandora's Box..or, alternatively, give a fool enough rope....

[Danube of Thought]

Today's WSJ reveals a few more facts I hadn't known. Jay Rockefeller is caught so red-handedly in a bald-faced lie that some will laugh out loud. LUN

[verner]

Way to go Lamar! DOT and Clarice, I'm of a mind at this point, sure, why not. Because the real loser in all of this, besides the USA of course, is Barak Hussein Obama.

Let us know what they were really saying and doing while Bush was taking knives in the back for doing no more that fulfilling his sacred duty to protect and defend, not only the constitution, but the American people.

[MayBee]

The Democrats and the left started this thing, and they started it for the rawest of political purposes. (

Remember Jay Rockefellers memo urging Democrats to use intelligence for political purposes as much as possible?

That got so swept under the rug it's shameful (because the Republican staffer "cheated" by finding it on the computer). It should be hauled out again and plastered everywhere, now that people are paying attention.

[MayBee]

Alexander also tried to pin Holder down on what he knew about extraordinary renditions under Clinton.

[Uncle BigBad]

Don't overlook the possibility that the Won is contemplating throwing Polosi under the bus.

[clarice]

MayBee--GMTA--I just blogged the Jay story along with a reminder about the memo.What a scoundrel!

[narciso]

Isn't Rockefeller's family interests, the real reason we're in this mess in the first place, takind the long view. SoCal brokered a deal with the victorious Wahhabi warlord,
otherwise known as Ibn Saud, in part due to
the fracas of post WW! British foreign policy, and they were given a new lease on life. People are using the name Bush as some kind of swear word, because the Elder
did drill some in Kuwait, and Junior, had some business in Bahrain, but Powell, and Armitage and Scowcroft's name never comes up
in the Two Minute Hate.

[MayBee]

We have carefully reviewed our options under the rules and believe we have identified the best approach. Our plan is as follows:

1) Pull the majority along as far as we can on issues that may lead to major new disclosures regarding improper or questionable conduct by administration officials. We are having some success in that regard. For example, in addition to the president's State of the Union speech, the chairman has agreed to look at the activities of the Office of the Secretary of Defense as well as Secretary Bolton's office at the State Department. The fact that the chairman supports our investigations into these offices and co-signs our requests for information is helpful and potentially crucial. We don't know what we will find but our prospects for getting the access we seek is far greater when we have the backing of the majority. (Note: we can verbally mention some of the intriguing leads we are pursuing.)

2) Assiduously prepare Democratic "additional views" to attach to any interim or final reports the committee may release. Committee rules provide this opportunity and we intend to take full advantage of it. In that regard, we have already compiled all the public statements on Iraq made by senior administration officials. We will identify the most exaggerated claims and contrast them with the intelligence estimates that have since been declassified. Our additional views will also, among other things, castigate the majority for seeking to limit the scope of the inquiry. The Democrats will then be in a strong position to reopen the question of establishing an independent commission (i.e. the Corzine amendment).

3) Prepare to launch an independent investigation when it becomes clear we have exhausted the opportunity to usefully collaborate with the majority. We can pull the trigger on an independent investigation at any time-- but we can only do so once. The best time to do so will probably be next year either:

A) After we have already released our additional views on an interim report -- thereby providing as many as three opportunities to make our case to the public: 1) additional views on the interim report; 2) announcement of our independent investigation; and 3) additional views on the final investigation; or

B) Once we identify solid leads the majority does not want to pursue. We could attract more coverage and have greater credibility in that context than one in which we simply launch an independent investigation based on principled but vague notions regarding the "use" of intelligence.

In the meantime, even without a specifically authorized independent investigation, we continue to act independently when we encounter foot-dragging on the part of the majority. For example, the FBI Niger investigation was done solely at the request of the vice chairman; we have independently submitted written questions to DoD; and we are preparing further independent requests for information.

Summary

Intelligence issues are clearly secondary to the public's concern regarding the insurgency in Iraq. Yet, we have an important role to play in the revealing the misleading -- if not flagrantly dishonest methods and motives -- of the senior administration officials who made the case for a unilateral, preemptive war. The approach outline above seems to offer the best prospect for exposing the administration's dubious motives and methods.

[Danube of Thought]

Uncle BB, if I were Pelosi I'd suely be worried about what Obama might do, but I'd be quaking in my boots about the CIA. If she's on their ordure list--and who can imagine she is not?--then her future looks grim indeed.

[urbanpinepeg]

Do you think Plame's tulips did Harvard and Hopkins with the doctor and nurses' contracts to 'help out' with the torture? They had to be approached and paid. It's not like they'd torture 'cause they're supposed to. They're going to jail either way and the schools will have to compensate the victims.

CIA doesn't plan these things, really. It just works out that way, like Plame didn't do anything she accused everyone else of and that includes having torture arranged. Soon, we'll get the 'domestic intelligence work' she did right. Maybe she's just a carrier............

[newpetrol]

Pelosi is done. Stand-by to purge the ranks!

[MayBee]

oh goody clarice- link it when you can.

Ah, this brings back one of my favorite campaign memories (another thing I know Tops loves, too)

When Rockefeller went on the campaign trail with Obama, and Obama said Rockefeller voted against the war. When it was pointed out to Obama's people that was incorrect, O's spokeswoman just said nobody cares about Rockefeller.
Good times.

O won't throw Nancy under the bus. He just wants to end the talk about investigations.

[Thomas]

I also think intelligence gathering, including torture, is better left unsaid and left to the discretion of those gathering the intelligence including those doing the torturing (I am not in a mood to be polite this morning, so for those who think that other nations, including the European nations that are favored by our effete leftists, don't torture or rendition with the moral certainty that the receiving nation will torture, you are truly clueless idiots).

That being siad, I can understand why the CIA, acting in defense, would leak this stuff. I just hope the CIA has more incriminating material on Pelosi and other sanctimonious Dems, and that the releases so far are warning shots to get the Dems to shut up.

Given the tender sensibilities of many of our pols, I think in the future, notwithstanding that it may reduce the intelligence we gather, enemy combatants without identifying insignia should be shot on sight by our forces as a matter of unstated policy. The budget deficit is too high to fund housing them in better style and treating them better than they ever have been housed or treated in their home countries.

Back to the clueless idiots. When will you realize that the world has far less respect for us when we grovel, as did Carter and as Obama is currently doing?

[PeterUK]

Thomas,
Is it better to be loved than feared? Machiavelli time again.

[MayBee]

Back to the clueless idiots. When will you realize that the world has far less respect for us when we grovel, as did Carter and as Obama is currently doing?

Don't you wonder what he is going to say in Egypt?

[matt]

Remember. it was Obama who released the memos, and who then had to go to Langley to put down the unrest. Pelosi is simply collateral damage.

There is going to be guerilla warfare now, so we really don't know how this is all going to play out.The Agency got thrown under the bus, and i think we may see a drip, drip, drip (hee hee) of leaks now that damage Obama and his colleagues. Whether this is good for the country is another story. However, I am so opposed to his policies at this point that I feel it necessary to obstruct his attempt to nationalize 65% (automotive, banking, health care) of the economy by any means necessary.

[verner]

MayBee, do you know where we can find that in the ole archive?

I sense a long piece on how the democrats have betrayed this country.

[MayBee]

verner-
Here is FoxNew's transcription of it

[sherlock]

Here's a thought problem that's harder than a "Where's Waldo?" puzzle... find a Democrat anywhere in this picture whose words and actions are steered by what is in the best interests of America.

Take your time, folks...

[Thomas Collins]

Obama's going to Egypt, MayBee? He'll probably apologize for Bush's not inviting the 2008 Egyptian men's soccer team to the White House to celebrate their victory in the Africa Cup competition.

PeterUK, that's a great extract from Machiavelli. It reminds us that the Carter/Obama approach invariably results in a country being neither feared nor loved.

I always try to keep my posting name consistent, but on my prior post on this thread, it looks as if I forget the "Collins" after the "Thomas." Must have partied too hard with the Cabernet last night.

[Fresh Air]

Sherlock--

I don't suppose Zell Miller counts, huh?

[hit and run]

Clarice:
or, alternatively, give a fool enough rope....

When Hope and Change becomes Rope and Chains.

[narciso]

Yes, but he's retired, and ticked off Chris Matthews, so SNL had to savage him. If Ben Nelson were more prominent, they'd attack him too. Bayh seems to be pretty good on some issues. Officer Webb, not so much.

[Danube of Thought]

As a related matter, did anyone else feel the need to puke when, last week, Obama lectured us on how the use of "torture" ocrrodes a nation? On what evidence did he issue that pronouncement?

Did it corrode the peoples of, say, France, Italy or the UK? (Just as a refresher, go back and review the slaughter by Henry V of about 2,000 captured French knights, held behind the English lines at Agincourt with their hands bound behind their backs. "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...")

How firm a grasp on history do we think our current president has?

[PeterUK]

"Start by admitting
From cradle to tomb
Isn't that long a stay.
Life is a Cabernet, old chum,
Only a Cabernet, old chum,
And I love a Cabernet!"

[PeterUK]

"the slaughter by Henry V of about 2,000 captured French knights, held behind the English lines at Agincourt with their hands bound behind their backs",

Yes,but they didn't waterboard them.

[PeterUK]

In fact the prisoners were killed because the French still outnumbered the English and were preparing for another attack Further there was no way the small expeditionary force of Henry V could have guarded the prisoners and remained mobile.

[PD]

As a related matter, did anyone else feel the need to puke when, last week, Obama lectured us on how the use of "torture" ocrrodes a nation?

Whereas such things as the takeover of private business to give it to the union do not.

Yeah, Obama declaiming on us having lost our moral bearings carries great credibility.

[Fresh Air]

DoT--

Didn't corrode Hannibal too much. It was SOP during the Second Punic War to put all men in a village that didn't capitulate to the sword. Worked amazingly well. He occupied a vast territory thousands of miles from home with a pretty small army. Come to think of it, the Romans did pretty well with the same approach.

[hit and run]

DoT:
How firm a grasp on history do we think our current president has?

Obama firmly believes that he made history with his 2004 DNC convention speech.

And having done that, he's been making history up ever since.

[PeterUK]

"Obama firmly believes that he made history with his 2004 DNC convention speech."

That would be Year 0 COO (Coming of Obama)

[Charlie (Colorado)]

My bet is on the audio recordings, but I've been known to be wrong.

Patch, in all seriousness, the likelihood of there being recordings is essentially nil. That's just not the way the farm boys do classified.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Aren't they getting funding cut badly, too?

Hard to be sure, since it's all black-budget, but the overall black budget is actually up significantly, or so it's been reported.

[PeterUK]

Charlie,
Would there be any kind of record kept on who was briefed and on what,just as insurance for times such as these?

[narciso]

Yep, go to a country with a twenty eight year old state of emergency, directed by the local Mukharabat and preen against torture, notice I didn't put that in quotes, where they jailed the liberal presidential candidate, Nour, and Saad Ibrahim, but they let Salafi's preach hate 24/7. Is it a coincidence that besides Bin Laden, and Zubeydah, almost every mid level deceased or current AQ operative is Egyptian. Zawahiri, Mustafa Atef, dead, Hamza Rabia dead, (Sounds like the Animal House roll call of the Alphas) Ayub al Masri, Seyf al Adel, alive but living in Tehran

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Would there be any kind of record kept on who was briefed and on what,just as insurance for times such as these?

You bet, and that's what's coming out: logs of visits and memoranda to record. SOP.

[Fresh Air]

Narciso--

Lawrence Wright wrote about Saayd Qutb (sp?), the father of the Islamist movement, who started it in an Egyptian prison in the FIfties. Nasser's crackdowns just gave it fuel. Egypt is the birthplace of Al Qaeda, even if its money comes from SA.

[PeterUK]

"You bet, and that's what's coming out: logs of visits and memoranda to record. SOP."

Oh frabjous joy! So soon after the Ascension of the One.

[clarice]

Here, MayBee http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/05/poppinjay.html

[Peter]

So remind me...since my stroke my memory has gaps. Exactly how many videos did we make of sawing some poor little Jihadi's head off with a dull knife again?

Oh wait, that was them! Well, wake me up when we do half as much.

[clarice]

Peetah peetah peetah--we can't show pics of 9/11 or Berg or Pearl because that's just too distasteful--let's haul out the Abu Ghraib ones for the 1 millionth time and hope that seared seared in the viewers' heads are those pics and not the pics of real horror.

[MayBee]

thanks, clarice! Very good stuff.

[clarice]

You're welcome--

[Molon Labe]

@Fresh Air: "Come to think of it, the Romans did pretty well with the same approach."

As are the Taliban today.

[PeterUK]

"we can't show pics of 9/11 or Berg or Pearl because that's just too distasteful".

Ah but,Ghrab an Arab was titillating for them.Many frequent bath house parties like that.

[Boatbuilder]

Mark--I share your concern about the potential long-term damage done by putting intelligence matters that were intended to be confidential in the open. However, it has for so long been a one way street, and the trust has so often been violated (by one side) for political gain, that I can't help but think that the current exposure to the sun is a welcome development--if for no other reason than that it may cause future Pelosis and Rockefellers to think twice. God knows no Republican would have even considered doing what they did--they know they'd be politically eviscerated (See Libby, Scooter).
I also think the damage--exposure of methods and limitations, breach of confidentiality, the promotion of excessive caution in fighting terrorism due to fear of prosecution--has been done. This needs to be rectified, not covered over.

[PeterUK]

Spot the Muppet.

[PD]

"Obama firmly believes that he made history with his 2004 DNC convention speech."

And it continues to this very day. HuffPo describes his visit to the burger joint with Biden as "historic."

[blotia]

The prince is clement because he was born outside the US to an informant father who worked for CIA who's party was not real nice. Plame really can pay off, it doesn't matter about her tulips accidentally trying to kill, I mean just torture, people. Obama couldn't have done better than a Harvard education for him and his family and the presidency. It really does pay to inform for CIA. Nothing like solid ground for Harvard and Hopkins..........

Stop the bloating, digest more! Never loose focus on the core business!!

[Danube of Thought]

Hey PeterUK, far be it from me to suggest that Harry Le Roy didn't have his reasons--they all have their reasons, don't you know? The CIA beasts claim they were actually trying to prevent the slaughter of more American civilians, but how does that sort of nonsense stack up against the corrosion of ourselves as a people?

[Terry Gain]

Nancy Tortures The Truth

Khalid got sprayed
After Nancy okayed
Nancy's in Khalid's debt
Cause of her, he's all wet
Nancy didn't even frown
When Khalid nearly got drowned

[PeterUK]

DoT,
For centuries after that,all we did was try to kill frogs.With the EU,we might have to start again,simply corroded that's us.

[Frau Jedöns]

Initially, Jane Harman had the look of a Scoop Jackson democrat, but was punished for momentary patriotic independence and silenced by the Baltimore princess. It will be enjoyable if the Chicago Boys take out Granny Nan for acting uppity.

On the basis alone of alerting Syria and Iraq to our impending attack in 2003, Rockefeller will bypass purgatory and hurtle into one of the infernal, exclusive inner circles.

[Uncle BigBad]

The Luciferians are back.

[Danube of Thought]

I think it's the Central Pit of Malebolge for Jay. Or at the very least a one-way ticket to Palookaville.