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May 21, 2009

Comments

narciso

Come on Jay, you're slipping, he was fed this garbage by Ayers, the wannabe trust fund Guevara, who spouted out half digested
Carlos Marighela, by Derrick Bell and the rest of the critical legal studies cadre and his spiritual counterpart Jeremiah
Wright, for twenty years, probably Eric Foner, the Marxist prof at Columbia, who worried about the anger rising up after September 11th.

daddy

Personally I wish it were true that Al Queda treated our captured troops in a reciprocative manner as to the way we treat them. Then our captured troops would perhaps have been compelled to undergo a tad bit of caterpillars or waterboarding, or at the most photo-shoots with undies over their noggin's instead of having their heads sawed off.

So simply following his logic, if Obama truly thinks that our waterboarding them will force them into precisely similar behavior, then the most humanitarian thing in the world Obama could do would be to waterboard every detainee at Gitmo on a daily basis, as that would sway them from lopping off heads as option 1. I'm all for it. Waterboarding forever, begin! And lets also start feeding Club Gitmo detainee's Cheeseburgers instead of hallal, so that our captured troops can also get a decent square meal as reciprocation when in confinement.

Mickey

They are crazy. Where in the fairness playbook does it allow civilians to strap bombs to the chest and walk into a crowd and set it off, or how about flying planes into buildings? We have experienced the depths Al Qaeda will stoop to, and if we are unwilling to match them, we will be seen as weak. They do anything they want in order to send a message, there is no paralysis of debating right and wrong.

narciso

And Greg Sargent, continues to forget the theory of holes, when in one,stop digging.

Charlie (Colorado)

Not being alone in being wrong doesn't make him less wrong.

clarice

good point, daddy..Do you suppose we are in some Rwilight Zone episode where so many people have simply had the brains sucked out of their heads that it seems unremarkable to hear such idiocy?

clarice

**TWILIGHT Zone***

narciso

Brain slug from one of the planets in the Ceti Alpha system, I suspect.

bad

Obama is far from alone or original on this point.

It's hard to be alone or original on anything when you crib everything from someone else.


Original MikeS

This is another one of those debates where the other side claims the debate is over.

In extreme cases where there is reason to believe that it may save a life, should the President have the authority to authorize Enhanced Interrogation including water boarding?

Hell yes! Damn, it is common for law enforcement to order a homicide in those circumstances. Why not splash a little water in someone's face to save a life?

Appalled

A bit off topic, but...

The thing that struck me about Obama's speech has how he has muffed the looking-backward, truth commission thing. His actual words are this:

I recognize that many still have a strong desire to focus on the past. When it comes to the actions of the last eight years, some Americans are angry; others want to re-fight debates that have been settled, most clearly at the ballot box in November. And I know that these debates lead directly to a call for a fuller accounting, perhaps through an Independent Commission.

have opposed the creation of such a Commission because I believe that our existing democratic institutions are strong enough to deliver accountability. The Congress can review abuses of our values, and there are ongoing inquiries by the Congress into matters like enhanced interrogation techniques. The Department of Justice and our courts can work through and punish any violations of our laws.

Now all this sounds innocuous enough. There won't be a Truth Commission. But what there seems to be is more push, push, push on Congressional Investigations (all very diffuse -- but usually designed to score a big bad headline). And there will be continued Justice department investigations.

One can debate the merits of all this. But, if Obama's political problem is that the CIA is nervous, he hasn't provided any closure through this speech. As a matter of fact, once you get through the finally spun rhetoric, he has not addressed his problem at all.

I guess he gets praise for his speech, and accomplishes nothing by it.

Appalled

I think Obama would like a Congress that is like Charlie McCarthy, would be satisfied with one that is like Eugene McCarthy, but is likely to end up with one honoring the traditions of Joseph McCarthy.

Patrick R. Sullivan

But, on more important things:

Rule 4.09:

'When a runner misses a base and a fielder holds the ball on a missed base, or on the base originally occupied by the runner if a fly ball is caught, and appeals for the umpire's decision, the runner is out when the umpire sustains the appeal; all runners may score if possible, except that with two out the runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained as applied to the following runners.'

Note that; 'the runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained'

That's clearly saying that inning was actually over BEFORE the 'fourth out' happened.

bad

Tapper reports:

No, that was not an actual copy of the Constitution behind President Obama as he spoke today.

A spokeswoman for the National Archives confirms that just like in the movie National Treasure, the document on display today was a facsimile.

There was more than one fake on display today.

verner

As far as the Red Chinese go, if our troops can reliably understand that the only "rough interrogation" that they will ever get will be no more severe than what is set out in Bybee's OLC memo, then they are in good shape, because they will already know, thanks to SERE school, what to expect, and know that, although uncomfortable, they will not be permanently harmed.

And even McCain said that in a ticking bomb scenario, go ahear and wb them. And excuse me, but that's exactly what we were facing. Hambali was already in Thailand, and six weeks away from murdering hundreds, if not thousands at the APEC summit in Bangkok, just as he had in Bali.

But they never mention that.

bad

Now that congress has denied funding to shut down Gitmo, O's rhetoric regarding shutting it down has ratcheted up a notch.

He gets to pontificate about closing it without proposing an alternative because there is no political will in congress to shut it down.

verner

The vote NOT to close Gitmo was an overwhelming defeat for Obama. And I don't see how it's going to change one bit anytime soon. I don't care if he picks a super delux triple max club fed. It will still be in somebody's district. And there will always be the threat that A-Q will try to bust them out.

Just keep them at Gitmo, let them get fat as pigs, and let them out in 40 years when they're too old to do any harm.

They've never had it so good anyway.

tidare

You wake up fine. Can't tell a thing... in your own back yard.

bad

verner, he seems to achnowledge that we need a Gitmo type place---just in a different location with a different name. He wouldn't be keeping the military commission system otherwise.

What do you suppose it will cost to build a new facility and transport all of the detainees to the new location?

Aubrey

I can easily imagine how Al Queda is reacting to all this. Uncontrollable laughter is my guess.

Jane

Bad timing for the WON today what with those criminals turned terrorists being caught in the NYC plot. Unless of course his real goal is to import more terrorism teachers in our prisons.

hit and run

If lefties really think that treating a detained terror suspect harshly will lead to reciprocation by fellow terrorists on the battlefield who may apprehend our troops -- then they should consider what treating Republican officials harshly, say through truth commissions, false accusations, threats of prosecution, prison, etc will lead to.

Rethuglicans are more savage and debased than the misunderstood foreign freedom fighters, afterall, from what we've been told...

hit and run

bad:
[[What do you suppose it will cost to build a new facility and transport all of the detainees to the new location?]]

But during the porkulus debate, Obama informed us that all spending is stimulus.

clarice

An excellent satire on the Obama Cult http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X16VAMrz5oI&feature=player_embedded

bad

True, Hit. Spending stimulates my ire spectacularly.

Bruce

"... but is likely to end up with one honoring the traditions of Joseph McCarthy"

At least Joe was right about communist infiltration of government.

verner

yeah Bad, and all just so he can "pretend" to keep a dopey campaign promise to the hate America Left.

Well, Gitmo is the best place for those rabid dogs. If you bring them onto US soil, it will make whatever locale they are placed a terrorist target.

Here's a scenario--say they're put right outside Peoria. And a truck load of A-Q drives up to East Peoria elementary school and holds 300 of the kids hostage until their Muslim brothers are released.

Hint to Obama, it has happened before--remember Russia?

NO WAY they're coming here.

verner

Glen Beck has just discovered the Tides Foundation. Welcome to the party honey!

verner

Yeah, that's allwe need you worthless PUNK. Dead american kids. LUN Just so you can play a big man with the loony left.

matt

we now know the price of Spectre's denunciation of the CIA yesterday. He was named chair today on the Senate Judiciary subcommittee on crime and drugs. You would think they would have waited a few days...what a whore.

Fresh Air

What do you suppose it will cost to build a new facility and transport all of the detainees to the new location?

There's an atoll in the Pacific used for target practice that would make a nice spot.

daddy

If lefties really think that treating a detained terror suspect harshly will lead to reciprocation by fellow terrorists on the battlefield who may apprehend our troops -- then they should consider what treating Republican officials harshly, say through truth commissions, false accusations, threats of prosecution, prison, etc will lead to.

Excellent point Hit. Worth repeating it, so I did:)

matt

it should be pointed out to Messers Obama, Mullen, McCain, et al what the insurrectionists in Iraq did to the Americans they captured.

They executed them as brutally as possible, and in some cases burned the corpses and then hung them from a bridge or buried them in the desert.

There ain't no Geneva Convention with this scum.

Enlightened

I think Obama would like a Congress that is like Charlie McCarthyBuffetTurnerSorosWinfreyGatesBloombergRockefeller

Fixed that for ya

PaulL

"The Congress can review abuses of our values"

Is that one of their duties?

Charlie (Colorado)

"I think Obama would like a Congress that is like Charlie McCarthy, would be satisfied with one that is like Eugene McCarthy, but is likely to end up with one honoring the traditions of Joseph McCarthy."

he shoots, he scores.

Charlie (Colorado)

There's an atoll in the Pacific used for target practice that would make a nice spot.

I think the part about glowing in the dark would save money, too.

maryrose

MSNBS has all these Obama apologists out in force today because they know their boy Obama laid a big egg and came out second best in the debate with Cheney. I found myself wishing Cheney was the one debating Obama in the primaries this past year.

PeterUK

It might seem tasteless and macabre,but you have to highlight the treatment those captured by the Deeply Offended Community.
The liberal left depends on the moral equivalence between waterboarding and the ritual slaughter of those captured by a seventh century death cult.
As it stands the left sound like the political wing of al Qaeda.

matt

wait a second! the diving on that particular atoll is excellent. All sorts of cool wrecks.

How about a nice desolate rock off of Hyannisport? The Hamptons? Malibu?

matt

according to a report on Drudge, Obama has already taken Joe "I can't help myself" Biden to the woodshed for his knuckleheaded remarks at least a couple of times.

I sincerely doubt the McCain would have had those issues with Palin.Funny how the MSM has missed the boat once again.

Thomas Collins

I say give them all tenured professorships at one of those schools where the "everything is narrative" folks hold sway in the social sciences and humanities, and house them with the "everything is narrative" profs. After all, if everything is narrative, all the profs shaking in their sandals have to do to alleviate their fear is to change the narrative to "this will be a great multicultural, non-hegemonic experience to share space with individuals embodying diversity itself."

verner

Matt, why don't they just buy the Kennedy Compound on Hyannis Port. I'm sure the neighbors wouldn't mind.

Terry Gain

Obama says he inherited the Gitmo mess. My goodness. What to do about these terrorists. Such a tough, serious problem. So much more difficult than smug, mindless attacks on your political enemies.

He doesn't explain what he would have done if faced with the same problems the Bush administation had to face. And he won't be asked.

My guess is that the approach of a Democrat Administration would have differed in only two respects. First, there would have been more resort to rendition and secondly there would have less opposition from the other political party and the media.

Obama should not be given the benefit of the doubt on anything until he releases the memos which describe the results of the EIT. Anyone who takes his word on their effectivness is a fool.

The notion that any enemy of the United States, including al Qaeda and China, would be influenced in their treatment of American prisoners by the treatement the United States afforded them is stupid beyond belief.

I'll believe this when I see al Qaeda or China give blood and treasure to liberate tens of millions of people who come not just from another culture but the culture of their avowed enemies

Jim Miller

As I understand it, the last time our prisoners of war received the protection of the Geneva conventions was in World War II -- and then only from the Germans. (And even then, I believe that American Jews did not receive that protection.)

So, the idea that our decent behavior will result in decent treatment of our men who are captured seems a little dubious. At least with our current enemies.

(Possibly significant fact: At the beginning of the German invasion of the Soviet Union in World War II, the Germans offered to set up Geneva convention rules for prisoners on each side. Stalin turned them down.)

matt

Jim;

American Jewish soldiers typically received Geneva Convention protections in most case, so long as they kept their religion unknown. Many did not report this on their dog tags for that reason. Some were executed or sent to the camps by the SS, but usually the Wehrmacht followed the rules.

verner

I just heard Cheney say "PHONEY MORALIZING' again.

I swear, no man has ever whispered sweet musings into my ear any yummier.

hit and run

Here are the http://www.gallup.com/poll/118564/Pelosi-Gets-Poor-Marks-Handling-Interrogations-Matter.aspx>stats from Gallup...


Only 29% disapprove of Obama seems low, but I live in a bubble, I suppose.

Nancy is creeping up on a majority disapproving of her olympian efforts to piss eveybody off.

Dems in congress overall still ahead of repubs in congress.

But then again, if you take some of the polling and anecdotal interviews after the election, a good number of people still believe that republicans control congress, fwiw...

And the CIA mops the floor with congress on the ratings, and the disapproval for the CIA is down right Obamaian, so, keep calling them liars, Nancy, please!

verner

Hey Hit--Nancy is a LOSER. Even the Repubs rate higher than her.

I think Obama is gaining points because Panetta is supporting the CIA, and he claims he didn't want to release the memos--liar.

hit and run

Well, Obama will find this instructive. Keep his damn yapper closed on a contentious issue and his approval rating won't take a hit.

He has not once -- personally or through Gibbs -- said one thing in defense of Nancy.

Vote:
     Yes
     No
 &  Present

Captain Hate

Has the formatting on this worthless software hit critical mass at the top of the post or is it just my browser?

hit and run

Captain -- I think it was my comment with the html spaces and check mark (it was a square root sign, really).

I think (hope) that the new page will help rid us of the formatting f'd-upedness

sbw

I can see stuff... including your attempt at checks showing up as garbage. Everything else looks okay.

Jim Miller

Matt- Thanks for that clarification.

Frau Jedöns

To eliminate the chief reward in martyrdom, why not give the detainees their 72 virgins right now. Of course, it will have to be Steve Martin's Seventy-Two Virgins:

"Virgin No. 12: Hurry! My parents are due home!
Virgin No. 13: Do you want the regular or the special?
Virgin No. 14: I’m eighty-four. So what?
Virgin No. 38: I’m Zania, from the planet Xeron. My vagina is on my foot.
Virgin No. 39: It’s a lesion, and, no, I don’t know what kind.
Virgin No. 66: We could do it here for free, or on a stage in Düsseldorf for money."

 Ann

Photobucket

Does Michelle have a thigh holster?

(Since Hit already messed this thread up :), I wanted to see if you can post pictures again) YES WE CAN!!!

Rick Ballard

Ann,

C'mon, say something nice. "My, that hump is not nearly as noticeable as it was before." works. Or just go for "Stunning!" (you can cross your eyes after typing in order get the full effect).

 Ann

Rick,

My first choice was "a thong holster" so you could say I was being nice. :)

PD

"I recognize that many still have a strong desire to focus on the past."

Why then, Mr. President, do you continue to do so? You are aware that you blamed the Bush administration 28 times in your speech, are you not?

PD

That story about Obama reportedly having to take Biden to the woodshed is interesting. It indicates that the person who picked Biden for VP didn't have very good judgment.

Wait, that can't be right. Obama picked Biden, which would make Obama's judgment suspect. Yet we were told during the campaign about Obama's superior judgment by the best source possible, Obama himself.

I'm confused.

daddy

Don't know if the Biden revelation about the secret underground bunker at the VP's Huuse will have legs.

Rush hit on it today as a possible violation punishable by fine and 10 years in Jail, but now supposedly Eleanor Clift who reported it is backtracking into Andrea Mitchell Amnesia-mode with a dollop of mispoke-ese thrown in.

Interesting, because Rush won't let it silently slip away, and if calls for an investigation of VP Biden as leaking Covert Info gain traction, then the Left will be forced to demand a Reciprocal investigation of the Cheney-Plame leak meme all over again.

My guess is that the MSM within 48 hours starts a replay of the Cheney-Plame Leakfest as a protective defensive move, while the Biden Leak inquiry winds up in that same memory hole with Kerry's DD-214 and Obama's College transcripts.

daddy

Don't know if the Biden revelation about the secret underground bunker at the VP's Huuse will have legs.

Rush hit on it today as a possible violation punishable by fine and 10 years in Jail, but now supposedly Eleanor Clift who reported it is backtracking into Andrea Mitchell Amnesia-mode with a dollop of mispoke-ese thrown in.

Interesting, because Rush won't let it silently slip away, and if calls for an investigation of VP Biden as leaking Covert Info gain traction, then the Left will be forced to demand a Reciprocal investigation of the Cheney-Plame leak meme all over again.

My guess is that the MSM within 48 hours starts a replay of the Cheney-Plame Leakfest as a protective defensive move, while the Biden Leak inquiry winds up in that same memory hole with Kerry's DD-214 and Obama's College transcripts.

Micha Elyi

If Hyannisport, MA is unavailable, relocate the illegal combatants from Gitmo to this now-abandoned military base: the San Francisco Presidio. Nancy Pelosi can personally bring 'em warm soup and make sure each terrorist is tucked into bed at night with a kiss.

daddy

Just a question concerning the number of virgins mentioned above:

I read the Koran after 9/11. It was a Penquin paperbook and I forget the translator, but I never came across the number of virgins (72) that martyr's were supposed to get after dying. No numbers were ever mentioned at all.
In the passages that I recall describing Paradise they talked about how martyrs there will wear fancy silk clothes while lying on sort of chaise-lounge chairs outdoors beneath fruit trees near 2 rivers. Young boys will run around around serving them wine and other beverages from silver pitchers, and brown eyed beautiful girls previously untouched by either man or Jinn will be basically hanging out and available. That's about the gist of it and surprisingly it sounds pretty much what you'ld imagine a 7th Century guy from the Saudi peninsula might consider as Paradise. But I never came up with any numbers for virgins and definitely not 72. Does anyone know if the 72 was left out of my translation, or if that number comes from the Haditha or some other commentary?

I ask, because we're having a serious discussion here in America about the potentially harmful publicity of non-lethal waterboarding on terrorists responsible for the mass murder of thousands of innocent Americans, and I don't think any of us JOMer's want to mistakenly offend anyone who wishes to saw American's heads off by misstating the number of virgins God is going to reward them with for sawing American's heads off. Kumbaya.

Jane

I read the Koran after 9/11.

Daddy,

You consistently amaze.

Rush won't let it silently slip away, and if calls for an investigation of VP Biden as leaking Covert Info

Nancy Pelosi and Biden can both go to supermax, with the pesky misunderstood terrorists.

Captain Hate

Liz Cheney laying teh smackdown on twatboy Lawrence O'Donnell, reducing that metro douche to a sputtering string of nonsequitors while laughing at him. Maybe that's who Cleo is; whatever it's time to "ratchet" up the meds.

narciso

It does seem that Biden is being sniped at, by the strongest Obama koolaid drinkers, first Eleanor, and now the supercilious Richard Wolfe, who now realize what we already knew in October.it is exactly the damn fool thing that Biden would do, and no one picks on Joe, sigh, and that we know that Sarah wouldn't do in a million years.

I've tried reading the Koran, and even introductory Arabic, around the time I took the Foreign Service test, it didn't take
but I've followed the learned commentaries on Sura's 5 & 9, by the likes of Robert Spencer, and I can see what this kind of effect, could do in continuous repetition as is the course of instruction in the madrassas.

Bill in AZ

I read the Koran too after 9/11. The 72 Virgins is not in there, but derives from Hadiths written later, and there is some argument whether even those are valid or interpreted correctly. A Dogpile search will yield lots.

I personally subscribe to the 72 raisins theory:

Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des Koran, available only in German, came out just over a year ago, but has already had an enthusiastic reception, particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin, Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental Institute in Beirut.

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.

As a former winemaker, this makes sense to me, but it is probably still garbled in translation. White raisins of "crystal clarity" does not make sense, but if you have ever had a German Trockenbeerenauslese (abbrev TBA), a crystal clear white wine made from individually selected botrytised (sort of raisined on the vine) White Riesling grapes, it would be something you could associate with "heaven".

There was some Germanic influence in their agriculture, and perhaps they experienced something like a TBA. TBA's can only be done in certain climates, and in certain years where conditions are right throughout the year, so it would be a rare treat. Dunno where the 72 comes from, but maybe somewhere along the line they figured out that 72 of these raisined grapes would yield a glass of this wine.

sbw

Daddy, you are not the only one to read the Koran. I had one in two volumes from the 1980s. But, as anyone of the faith will tell you, it has to be read in the original language to be accurate. It boils down to if you aren't one of them, yer screwed.

However, if you are one of them and extract from the Koran items they don't want to accept, they'll drum you out of the corps and, no longer being one of them, yer screwed.

I think it boils down to power has power and you don't.

glasater

Daddy-

Some years ago I was trying thinking on the correlation of islam and communism and doing much reading of Christopher Hitchens articles.
He wrote one such that gave me a sense of the history of islam in The Captive Mind and included a reference to ketman--which is to hide one's beliefs while behaving in a conventional manner.
That's putting it too simplistically of course but Hitchens article helped me think on islam in a different light.

LUN if my link doesn't work.

clarice

daddy is amazing and I still think we ought to hope a flight to Asia with him and wander with him thru his favorite spots. Can you imagine a more fun fellow traveler? I cant' (Wekk==ll, there's my grand daughter but daddy appears to require less tending to.)

MayBee

I bet if you got some sake into daddy, he could give your granddaughter a run for her money.

daddy

Thanks Bill and glasater for the input and the links. Both interesting reads. I would love to discuss it over sake someday in Asia with both JOMer's and JOMette's. I googled Koranic Paradise again last night after posting and found what appears to be a sentence in the text stating that even though the martyrs will be drinking wine, they won't get inebriated, nor will they suffer ill after-effects. I take this to mean no hangovers in heaven which I suppose is a nice feature, but if one doesn't get inebriated in the first place, what with all the fun and yucks of that, then why bother drinking vino at all? Seems to me that it misses the point of the exercise
.
That's where I fall back in alignment with the opinion of that famous American philosopher, Huckelberry Finn, at the point when he's undergoing rigorous schoolmarmin' from Miss Watson, the Widow Douglas's sis.

"Her sister, Miss Watson, a tolerable slim old maid, with goggles on, had just come to live with her, and took a set at me now with a spelling-book. She worked me middling hard for about an hour, and then the widow made her ease up. I couldn't stood it much longer. Then for an hour it was deadly dull, and I was fidgety. Miss Watson would say, "Don't put your feet up there, Huckleberry;" and "Don't scrunch up like that, Huckleberry--set up straight;" and pretty soon she would say, "Don't gap and stretch like that, Huckleberry--why don't you try to behave?" Then she told me all about the bad place, and I said I wished I was there. She got mad then, but I didn't mean no harm. All I wanted was to go somewheres; all I wanted was a change, I warn't particular. She said it was wicked to say what I said; said she wouldn't say it for the whole world; she was going to live so as to go to the good place. Well, I couldn't see no advantage in going where she was going, so I made up my mind I wouldn't try for it. But I never said so, because it would only make trouble, and wouldn't do no good.

Now she had got a start, and she went on and told me all about the good place. She said all a body would have to do there was to go around all day long with a harp and sing, forever and ever. So I didn't think much of it. But I never said so. I asked her if she reckoned Tom Sawyer would go there, and she said not by a considerable sight. I was glad about that, because I wanted him and me to be together."

Original MikeS

If Hyannisport, MA is unavailable, relocate the illegal combatants from Gitmo to this now-abandoned military base: the San Francisco Presidio.

If they get anywhere near San Francisco, UC Berkeley will make them professors.

daddy

"If they get anywhere near San Francisco, UC Berkeley will make them professors."

Well that's true OM, but Berkeley is a Nuclear Free Zone, so they'll only be able to engage in Mass Murder using Conventional Weapons instead of Nuclear Weapons which I guess is sort of a plus.

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Wilson/Plame