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May 12, 2009



discretion and this admin don't go together


God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.

That's all I'm saying..

Rob Crawford

The many roads of inquiry into the Bush administration's abusive "interrogation techniques" all lead to one stubborn, inconvenient fact: Torture is not just immoral but also illegal.

Was there EVER a question as to whether torture was illegal? Wasn't the ACTUAL question "what can be done that is NOT torture"?


TM, are you lookin' for some bacon and some beans, also?


I do not understand why this administration continues to pursue this matter. It is only their nutroots who want to do so, and if, I mean when, the next episode of domestic terrorism happens, all this hogtieing and blame throwing at the CIa is going to come back to haunt this administration. The question which will immediately leap to minds is 'Who didn't we interrogate very thoroughly?', and once the trail is tracked down, someone will be able to be specific about who that was and why it didn't happen.

Why can't they see this? As clarice says, the wonders are performed mysteriously.

Do you suppose Obama will agonize for a month about 'may'be releasing these latest?


When the debate quiets? If Obama and Pelosi get that lucky, why start it up again?

Has there been any political damage to Pelosi? The Dim's aren't going to throw here out, and her seat is safe for as long as she wants it. For all intents and purposes, Dims in favor are inoculated against ANYTHING by this administration. I said last week that they would keep this simmering, and they will. Their whole strategy has been to paint Bush and Cheney, especially Cheney, as evil, and with Cheney starting to push back, they just can't let it go. It suits there purposes to keep this at a low simmer. It keeps the nutroots pumped up, and keeps Obama's base, uhmmm, restive. At a moments notice be prepared to be called unpatriotic, racist, whatever, and prepare to be physically threatened for having a different view. Remember the black panthers at the polling place in Philly? That was just a sampler, and this is just the start. That was a model, not an aberration.


"The rule of law is one of this nation's founding principles."

Except for those pesky bankruptcy laws.



1. This is not going away. Both Dick Cheney and the more vengeful of the left are going to keep this going. I think it's pretty clear by now that Cheney is willing to take some significant risks to defend the enhanced interrogation techniques. The man has some courage -- he really could have walked away from this.

2. If the IG report is issued with the Cheney memos, I don't think anyone really can complain. Cheney has right to have materials that support his view of the story put out there. Obama has the same right. The marketplace of ideas is like any other market -- it functions better with more information.

3. We are drifting, whether it's acknowledged or not, to a consolidated hearing process about this. And it will likely happen just in time to mess up all of Obama's other priorities.

4. Boy, I hope Nancy Pelosi enjoys the leaking her continued bullheaded persistence in sticking to an implausible story is going to engender. She might want to remember she misremembered, and move on with this. Her supporters aren't going to care she was intimidated in 2002 from speaking her mind. Her base figures that everyone else was, too.

Danube of Thought

So the estimable Mr. Robinson opines that "it's not optional." This opens the door for me to use this 1810 quote from T. Jefferson for the second time today:

"To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

Danube of Thought

"Cheney has right to have materials that support his view of the story put out there. Obama has the same right."

Would that it were so. Obama can declassify and publish anything he chooses to, and keep the rest under wraps. Cheney is entirely powerless, unless the ACLU (say) comes to his aid.


"I do not understand why this administration continues to pursue this matter."

Because they are trying to keep the Bush Administration cooking for as long as possible to distract from their own significant problems. Obama can declassify what he wants when he wants, like the OIG report, and hold back the exculpatory memos that Cheney wants out.

verner and others were sure dragging Pelosi into this would slow things down, but I see no end in sight.

Fresh Air


It's all about the Soros Directive. It's not good politics, but they don't have any choice. It's what the chinless billionaire wants.


I linked last night (and HotAir did today) about the Administration threatening to cut off all intell sharing with Britain if they release details of Binyam Mohamed EIT's - the Brits decided they could do this based on Obama's decision to release the OLC memos. So a disastrous situation and consequence of Obama's amateur hour leadership, but I bet any amount of money because of this they will NOT release the IG report.

Hotair LUN

and is it just me or is Greg Sergent a bit too excitable?



If he simply publishes the OIG memo, while the memos Cheney has requested stay under wraps, he's going to get hit with the cherry picking intelligence charge.

And, if the CIA think they are being hung out to dry, then the mischevous leaking will start. The CIA is like any other bureaucracy -- very partisan when it comes to protecting CIA interests.


"We are drifting, whether it's acknowledged or not, to a consolidated hearing process about this."
Bingo. And the continuous reminders from Cheney and others that Pelosi and the Democrats were all up to their eyes in this is one way to try get the hearing process out of the grips of democrat committees.



The OIG report was already mostly leaked by McCarthy to the front pages of the WaPo for commie Dana Priest to get a Pulitzer.

I'm not seeing the upside even if as FA is saying that Soros is driving this or the Obama Administration needs to keep his left flank happy.

Also heard that those photos are going to be released and that should make for some interesting confirmation hearings material when LTG McChrystal tries to pick up his forth star.

So the commander of forces in Afghanistan has been canned, but will stay on until a replacement is found. His designated replacement is going up for hearings right when abuse photos will be released and most likely the OIG report from the seperate CIA program will be released.

I might be wrong that there isn't a plan afoot to sandbag LTG McChrystal and his JSOC program and the CIA program, but such a plan would go a long way in helping the Obama Administration lose Iraq and Afghanistan without attacking Gen. Petraeus and still have the ability to blame Bush Administration policies for the loss.

Danube of Thought

"...he's going to get hit with the cherry picking intelligence charge."

He's already cherry-picked, and he's already been hit with the charge. It doesn't seem to faze him, nor has it sparked much popular outrage one way or another.


seems my link is missing

Danube of Thought

RichardUF, I think it's far too late for Obama to credibly blame any loss of Iraq or Afghanistan on Bush. He now owns Afghanistan outright, what with a wholesale revamping of the strategy there (and a doubing of troop strength) on his watch. And I think there's a pretty clear understanding that the deterioration that is occurring in Iraq is his baby as well. Of course he'll blame either development on Bush--he seems to know no other reaction--but I think he'll have a tough time persuading any but the true believers on this one.

Danube of Thought

The WSJ has an article on the McTiernan replacement today (sorry, I can't link to it), and their take is quite different from that offered in the Goldfarb item at the Weekly Standard blog.

It points out that this was a Gates/Mullen decision, and that Gates in his 2 1/2 years has fired a Secretary of the Army, a Secretary of the Air Force, a CentCom commander, and now McTiernan. Rumsfeld, by contrast, fired no one. (Actually, I believe he did fire that three-star Marine who used the term "decimated" in a presser, and he de facto fired Peter Pace.) Anyhow, I think it is pretty clear that this is not a function of a difference between Bush and Obama, but rather the people serving under them.


"I do not understand why this administration continues to pursue this matter."

Take a look at http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/the-april-numbers-are-in-its-official/>this chart. It may help explain the need for such "distractions"

As Instapundit put it yesterday:

Apparently, we’re right where Obama’s economists said we’d be without the recovery plan. Except, you know, that we’re a lot deeper in debt.

Posted at 6:48 pm by Glenn Reynolds

"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

Only one problem, radicals. Cheney appears unwilling to be frozen.

Only if they can shut the person up does this rule work. They tried it with RUSH, too, but all it takes is some guts and the willingness not to be silenced and the ballerinas get backed off.

Limbaugh played a montage of MSM talking-head after MSM talking-head earlier, all advising Cheney to shut up. Yet, if Cheney's so hated and damaging to Republicans, they should want him to speak all day and night, right?


OT, but the administration, over the objections of Gates, has now canceled the Reliable Replacement Warhead program (nuclear). As Glenn Reynolds points out, "If Obama were trying to wreck America as a superpower, what would he be doing differently".

Fresh Air


Quite right. The Alinsky Rules are only effective when the other side plays by them, too. That's why I want Michael Steele to depart. He doesn't understand Jeff Goldstein's intentionalist theory any more than he does the Gramscian tactics of the left. Going for the jugular is quite effective--and entertaining as well. Fred Thompson for president?



I disagree about the responsibility being at Gates level. What we are seeing is a complete revamp of our Afghanistan strategy. According to the WaPo they are putting a special operator in charge to try and improve and expand the kind of "hearts & minds" programs that worked in Iraq. My question on that would be are they comparable in their ability to achieve the end goal of stability and peace.

What I have read elsewhere and what doesn't make sense is that there is apparently a difference of opinion between Petraeus and Gates and the Army establishment on tactics. Petraeus put out a news release supporting the change, but did he win or lose on this?

McKiernan has been asking for troops for 10 months and the Euros have hung us out to dry with our requests of them.The result is that any hearts & minds programs will lack the support necessary to bail the A teams out when they are out in the field.

With the uncertainty in Pakistan growing and an apparent resurgence by the Taliban, this sounds screwed up.


Hey, if any economical types would take a look at the table LUN and comment on it if you care to, I'd be obliged.


I had to look up the word "Gramscian." Learn something new every day, you do, reading JOM.


No doubt about it .... Cheney could have just walked away from all of this crap and gone quietly into that good night, and enjoy the retirement he's earned.

But I think he's finally mad as hell at what Obama and the Dems have done, no tjust with the release of the documents by Obama but also for all the years of duplicitous political grandstanding and obstructionism, and the gloves are off.

Despite the Dems' charges, the Bush administration was very concerned about the issue of torture, and sought legitimate legal counsel on what they could and could not do to interrogate terrorists when the "nicer" methods failed to produce any actionable intelligence.

Had they not been concerned with these issues, they would have done what they wanted, dumped the mangled, lifeless corpses of these rag-headed MOFOs in the middle of the Indian Ocean, and destroyed whatever video and written records existed.

After all, as the Dems have prattled on about during the entire past 8 years, couldn't an administration so evil and intent on destroying our freedoms and Constitution have done this?


With the uncertainty in Pakistan growing and an apparent resurgence by the Taliban, this sounds screwed up.

Well, here's the deal. Petraeus strategy worked well dealing with a largely Urban insurgency. AFAIK, the only real city in Afghanistan is Kabul, and it's sitting pretty good. Spreading a bunch of troops out in the wilds of Afghanistan, essentially unsupported, is suicide, and Petraeus knows it. Afghanistan ain't Iraq, and Pakistan is neither. Yes, there's problems right here in river city, and they are going to defy solutions for some time. IMHO, Franks had the right idea. Sweep the Taliban out, get some indigenous leadership in there and keep the bad guys at bay while some semblance of a peaceful democratic govt takes hold. It was the same tactic to be applied in Iraq until Powell, and Bremer, bollixed it up. IMHO, Powell and State are accountable in large part for the problems in Iraq, and they'll never be taken to task for it.


I think Cheney is motivated purely by love and concern for the USA, and be extension, the rest of the world. We are the last best hope and he knows it.



You and I and a lot of other folks know that. But, right now up is down and black is white and forward is backward and Cheney is going to be portrayed as a dangerous wanna be Tyrant. Obama the simple will be just defending himself from yet more ravages of the evillll Booosh administration. I really do feel like I'm through the looking glass some days.


I just received another phony Republican National Committee questionaire asking for more money.

I filled the postage paid envelope with teabags. It felt wonderful. Try It!


Anyone else hanging a teabag from their rear-view mirror?


We ARE the last best hope. But too many people, our current president and Democrat Party leadership included, disavow the belief in "American exceptionalism", and want us to be just like Europe and the rest of the world's countries.

After all, they're so "superior", "nuanced", and "sophisticated" that they've given us 2 world wars, slavery, Islamic jihad and terrorism, mass genocides, etc etc etc. And all of this just in the past 100 years!

Had it not been for America, consider the hell-hole the world could have been ... and will be, if these people achieve their goals.


Fred for RNC Chairman, btw. They could call it a co-chair situation so as not to have to dump Steele right away, but I agree that Steele hasn't seemed to be very effective so far, at least not for Republicans.

They'd get some money out of me, anyway.

JM Hanes

I doubt the Administration will actually release the OIG report. Greg Sargent's reaction was exactly what they were hoping for. They push the proposed publication down the road till things have simmered down -- and then ideally don't publish it all. In the meantime, the screamer base can keep the smoking gun narrative alive as long as the administration finds it useful. Giving Dick Cheney pause would just be a potential, even if unlikely, extra. They might try reassuring the CIA behind the scenes, but they've already made it pretty clear that they are willing to throw the Agency overboard if expediency requires. It's classic Obama positioning -- he keeps all his options open, including deniability.


And Rockefeller is Pelosi-ong the report as to when he received an individual briefing. I could simply rest up the next couple of years by watching HBO's Rome over and over again.


Anyone else hanging a teabag from their rear-view mirror?

Me me me - and Amy too.

Steele has raised a lot of money, so he isn't screwing up that badly. I'm a member of the National Tea Party (NTP) now anyway.


The "torture" story was great as long as it was a tool to attack Bush and Cheney, a purely political ploy with no downside. Now that's it has gotten a little out of hand and moonbats like Semanticleo and over at Kos are saying things like "we don't care if we bring Pelosi down, she is expendable, let's still go after Bush and Cheney" it's not so much fun anymore.


I'm listening to Cheney on Neil Cavuto right now.

Bring it on moonbats.


Cheney is on Cavuto now.For Janes benefit his breathing sounds better,less labored than in other interviews


Clarice, I have both seasons of Rome on DVD. Great idea.

Cecil Turner

And, if the CIA think they are being hung out to dry, then the mischevous leaking will start.

Yep. This ought to get very interesting. (And it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.) Go long popcorn!


Dems with a waterboarding problem:


They all knew and said nothing, and then attacked the Bush Administration. The other Dems seem to have been guided by their patriotism.

It's accountability time.


Tapper is reporting that the top tax rate will now start at $232,000 rather than $250,000.


I think I said that wrong. Taxes will be raised on those making $232,000 and up per year.

Remember when Bill Richardson said $125,000? I'm inclined to believe the ol' reprobate.

Rick Ballard


I guess that's to account for deflation...

The only problem I have with torturing the torture meme is that it distracts slightly from Team TurboZero's further cratering of the economy. I believe that the minor distraction is probably worthwhile because the Muddle doesn't give a damn about anything that happened to the odd headchopper while the nutroots are going to wind up talking to themselves if Cheney keeps going.

It's going to be the economy which puts the (D)irty Fascists back on the sidelines, not the lies told by their leadership in furtherance of sedition.

Richard Aubrey

The boys over at Volokh Conspiracy, mostly lawyers and lawprofs, were all over the torture issue like white on rice. Swear you could see the tears of outrage flowing.
Then I suggested they could demonstrate real principle by going after the extra rend boys of the Clinton admin, starting with "grab-his-ass" Gore. By requesting lawyers show principle instead of pretending, I got myself banned.
But since Harman and Pelosi were named, along with Rockefeller, the issue died a rapid and complete death.
I dunno.
Point is, trying to use this as a Bush-basher had its risks.
And now we're going to see them in all their glory.
Doesn't anybody here know how to play this game?


I agree Rick. Even the committed lefties in my world are screaming about the amount of debt and bailouts. They all think it will ruin the economy.

First Lady Michelle Obama told workers at Corporation for National and Community service today that community service is "the reason that I breathe."

OMG!!! How many times a week can Michelle tell people how great she is?

She is in desparate need of a new speechwriter. Her current one must secretly hate her.

Fresh Air

I heard a snippet of Rush yesterday. He played a tape of Geithner on Charlie Rose where he made the mother of all Freudian slips: "We've got to stop the next boom."

Yes, that's exactly what they want: an economy as stagnant as a Louisiana bayou, where only the bureaucrats get wage increases.

I wonder if anyone has done a recalibration of the election results. I've got to believe Zero would lose if he were running right now. He would certainly be confronted by a much more energized conservative enemy. Yes, I think "enemy" is the right word, insofar as he has shown he doesn't give a goddamn about the future of this country.

Charlie (Colorado)


By requesting lawyers show principle instead of pretending, I got myself banned.

By Orin? He banned me for pointing out that he was treating commenters badly.


Michelle Obama....Shesh. The only thing I can say is that Goodness she's not the co-president like Hillary was.


If we had a press corp anymore, one simple question of Obama would clear alot of this up:

Simply ask him that if he truly believes that the enhanced interrogation was torture and was immoral and illegal, then why is his administration STILL USING THE INTELLIGENCE GAINED FROM THOSE TECHNIQUES AND WILL HE BAR ANYONE IN HIS ADMINISTRATION USING THE INTELLIGENCE AND IN FACT DESTROY THE INFORMATION GAINED SO AS TO END THE MORAL HYPOCRISY.

If Obama truly believes 'enhanced interrogation"/so-called torture doesn't work, then clearly all information gained was false and thus useless to his administration - so just destroy it.

Clearly he can make us safer by showing the world we will not use this intelligence because it was obtained illegally and thus any and all terrorists killed or detained from this information were clearly innocent since the information was just made up lies.

The fact he has not done so, shows he's simply politicallt posturing for his leftist base and not serious about National Security.


So true Pops. Just go over and read the comments at Sargent's Plum. What a bunch of mindless twits who will swallow any swill the democrats pour out. Completely evidence proof and blinded by utter hatred.

Danube of Thought

I heartily concur that the current spending proposals, which largely appear unstoppable, will have a disastrous effect on the US economy, and perhaps that of the world.

My concern is that by the time the cause-and-effect become apparent it will be too late to do anything about it, and that many of the consequences will come after this bunch have left town of natural causes.


"Michelle Obama....Shesh. The only thing I can say is that Goodness she's not the co-president like Hillary was."

Yes there is nothing "co" about Michelle,Barrak does as he is told.


Politico has an article Democrats "CIA is out to get us". Too funny


Link to Jean's politico piece LUN

So THEY didn't want the info out there! LOL

And they are SHOCKED that it got out there!LOL

What did you expect geniuses? The CIA to sit there and take your sanctimonious lying BS?

And there's more to come...

Danube of Thought

Love the one about the Dem paranoia. If history is a guide, they have much to fear, and I for one am delighted.


Thanks Verner

Danube of Thought

Bad--I read what Tapper is saying a little differently. Looks like he proposes to raise rates, but also raise the threshhold at which the next-to-highest of those rates kicks in.

"...President Obama is proposing raising the highest two tax rates -- but he's also proposing that the threshold levels for one of those rates be raised.

"The top tax rates would go from 33 to 36 percent, and 35 to 39.6 percent.

"But the threshold for the new 36 percent bracket would be increased from $171,550 to $190,650 for individuals, and for couples from $208,850 to $231,300 in 2009.

"Meaning: if you're an individual who makes between $171,550 - $190,649, or part of a couple making between $208,850 - $231,299, you will go from the 33% tax rate to the 28% tax rate."

He also suggests waiting and seeing what the vultures in congress do with this proposal. I'll believe it when I see it.


"after this bunch have left town of natural causes."

I would be very surprised if this bunch has any intention of ever leaving town. IMO, they will not rest until every American is forced to be a union member and by default, a Democrat.

"Dick Meister asked May 11 at ZNet (cross-posted at Communist Party USA organ People’s Workers World) whether or not the Play-Doh Prez was “delivering on his promise to lead a pro-union administration”?




[quote]AP: Explore Pelosi interrogation briefing
By LARRY MARGASAK – 3 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The House majority leader reluctantly agreed Tuesday that congressional hearings should investigate Speaker Nancy Pelosi's assertion that she wasn't informed, more than six years ago, that harsh interrogation methods were used on an al-Qaida leader.

Rep. Steny Hoyer, D-Md., called Republican challenges to Pelosi's assertion a diversion from the real question of whether the Bush administration tortured terrorist suspects. Nonetheless, he acknowledged the controversy should be resolved.

Democrats will hold a series of hearings on Justice Department memos released last month that justified rough tactics against detainees, including waterboarding — simulated drowning — and sleep deprivation.[/quote]


And another thing the Obama administration may not want people noticing...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-posts-first-April-budget-rb-15222767.html?.v=4>U.S. posts first April budget deficit since 1983

I reall like this part:

It brought the deficit for the first seven months of fiscal 2009 to a record $802.29 billion after a major positive accounting adjustment for the government's bailout investments.

Instead of following the previous practice of treating investments from the Treasury's Troubled Asset Relief Program as cash outlays, the Obama administration has shifted to net present value accounting for them, a method that assumes they have value that the government will one day recoup.

All this stuff about "tortue" keeps the bad economic indicators off the front page.


"that harsh interrogation methods"

That's what I call a reverse Lackoff...

Yep ixnay the errortay.....


I haven't been around much so I don't know if this has been discussed, but if you haven't read Andy McCarthy, you should, LUN.


Whaddya think, Clarice - that Steny Hoyer he is a sly one! And no fool! I am sure he would like to pick up the pieces (or rather sweep them away) should Humpty Pelosi fall off the wall.


Here's a taste Jane:
They are making that choice fully aware that it will cost lives. It is a sedulous Democrat talking-point, repeated most recently by Carl Levin, the Senate Armed Services chairman and a key Obama ally, that the revelations of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib inspired new terrorist recruits, caused American combat casualties, and made the United States more vulnerable to terrorist attack. This has long been Obama’s own position. It is a charge he made throughout the 2008 campaign, and it is one he repeated just a month ago in his Strasbourg speech: “When we saw what happened in Abu Ghraib, that wasn’t good for our security — that was a recruitment tool for terrorism. Humiliating people is never a good strategy to battle terrorism.”

I will add this. The usual suspects are screeching about human rights abuses--well, here are the numbers...

Per the 2005 Church report, we have had over 50,000 detainees since the WOT began.

We had exactly 36 "ghost" detainees--the most brutal of A-Q's leadership.

We only used EI on a little more than a dozen, and waterboarded exactly 3.

Fewer than 120 have died in captivity, of all causes, that's a rate of around .022%--less than that of deaths of German POWS under the British in WWII (take that Andrew Sullivan, you git!)

Around 37 are from homicide. Many have been punished for BREAKING THE RULES AND THE LAW, and many investigations are ongoing.

If you look at that number objectively, you have a murder rate that is much much lower than what you have in many American cities.

And all of this during a time of WAR.

The real headline should be


And what reward do they get from Obama?

I hate them so much.


O do, too, verner.
CC--Isn't that delicious?

Fresh Air

Verner for head of RNC!

Instead of following the previous practice of treating investments from the Treasury's Troubled Asset Relief Program as cash outlays, the Obama administration has shifted to net present value accounting for them, a method that assumes they have value that the government will one day recoup.
I suppose no mark-to-market accounting for the guvmint, eh?

Nev-ah, Cathy f--the federal payroll, too, is burgeoning with average salary and benefits at over $75k and the chief revenue of most states now is apparently fed cash(not taxes or any other revenue stream).
Some neat economics.



The photos are to conflate various military programs with the CIA program. Like I said on another thread, it'll make for some nice confirmation hearing material when LTG. McChrystal goes to pick up his 4th star.

It should also make for some nice background imagery when Obama goes to Cairo next month to grovel to Islamists around the world.


Bravo, verner! Bravo! Facts! Those are our best weapons against the vile Left.


Oh and for anyone interested in another corruption vector to explore, it seems that Valerie Jarrett, from her perch as Senior Advisor to the President, is leading the Administration's efforts to get the 2016 games in Chicago.

I have no doubt that over $100 million will change hands and that the FBI will be no where to be found when the depth of the corruption is revealed.


There's some indication at the Corner that the President may take a lesson from Andy McCarthy and NOT make those photos public..

Niters,,this administration is wearing me out with its craziness.


"Rep. Steny Hoyer, D-Md., called Republican challenges to Pelosi's assertion a diversion from the real question of whether the Bush administration tortured terrorist suspects."

How is this a diversion?

Wasn't the point of congressional briefings to seek and obtain approval for the interrogation plans? If what the Bush administration planned to do was torture, Pelosi could have objected to it. She didn't. She's complicit. She bears responsibility.


He hemed-and-hawed over the OLC memos, set up a juvenile, high-school like debate, and knowing the risks, released the memos anyway. His goal is to discredit the war and further damage the reputations, military and civilian, of those who served during the Bush Administration. He'll hem-and-haw about the photos, but release them anyway.


When planning something befit for a "super genius," first figure out whether you are the Coyote or the Roadrunner.


Now this is rich ... Democrats: CIA is out to get us

Excuse me while I go p.ss in my pants.

Cecil Turner

Fewer than 120 have died in captivity, of all causes . . .

Caught NPR's Talk of the Nation on torture yesterday. They had Ted Koppel and Robert Baer on, both apparently fairly rabid lefties (at least on this subject). Koppel insists the debate is over on whether or not it's torture, Baer called for investigations including at CIA. The callers and guests insisted on conflating beating confessions out of suspects with harsh interrogations for information, and military (Abu Ghraib) and CIA interrogations, and Ted Koppel fell back on the unhelpful "if they break, it's torture" definition.

But the thing that surprised me most was Baer insisting 124 combatants were killed under interrogation, again conflating military detainees with the CIA program, and grossly misrepresenting the circumstances of death. (He's either a liar or a fool . . . and I strongly suspect he's no fool.) In any event, the quality of the debate wasn't high, and that appeared to be by design (of the lefties in charge of the discussion).

Going forward, it'll be interesting to see how the CIA's natural bias toward Democrats will be balanced by their unwillingness to be made scapegoats. I suspect it'll be an unpleasant surprise for the lefties, who've so far been sacred cows.



I was going to link that with the SAME comment -- isn't that rich?

JM Hanes


It's hard to choose a favorite whopper in that in that Politico column, but this one is definitely in the running:

“Look, the CIA has the responsibility — there’s no question about that,” Feinstein said. “Because you brief or notify doesn’t mean there’s any less responsibility of the CIA, any less the responsibility of the individual who participates in this — in my opinion.”
It's not like Congress is charged with oversight or anything.


another Pelosi walkback aka lie

A source close to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi now confirms that Pelosi was told in February 2003 by her intelligence aide, Michael Sheehy, that waterboarding was actually used on CIA detainee Abu Zubaydah.

Source says Nancy Pelosi didn't object about waterboard usage because she wasn't personally briefed about it.

This appears to contradict Pelosi's account that she was never told waterboarding actually happened, only that the administration was considering using it.

Why does the media keep using "seems like" and "appears to contradict" etc when referring to Pelosi's 4th bald face lie??? Does anyone think the press would be using all these qualifiers if it were a Republican on his first discrepancy?



As for Robert "Hollywood" Baer. I suspect his motives are making money and getting laid. He was always in on it with the VIPs.

As for the torture pimps. Do people have any idea how much money is involved in the "Human Rights" industry? Scream "torture" and the loons open their pocketbooks.

They have been tearing their clothes about WBing for years, and then we find out the "victims" number exactly 3, with one of the guys getting it no worse than the average SERE school trainee.

They agonize over secret CIA prisons, and we find out there are a whopping 36 "Ghost" detainees.

And then when we have a death rate of .02% of detainees--they act like the US army was torturing every suspect that came into their hands.

Money, and trying to justify their pathetic existence. And they care not a wit if American GIs get killed in the process.


Goodness! According to Human Rights First, I'm going to have to change my numbers!

According to them, there have been 83,000 "detainees" in US custody, and 98 deaths.

That gives us a rate of .01% instead of .02%

By comparison, the death rate for German POWS in British hands was .03%

And "Human Rights First" only claim that 46 of those deaths were "homicides."

Look up the other "alarming" stats in the LUN. These people are a JOKE.

Tell you what, when you find a perfect war, where every single soldier obeys orders, and no one breaks protocol, let me know about it.


And let's just add a little something about Human Rights First.

They had an operating budget of over 8 mil last year per guidestar.

Their chief exec. MICHAEL POSNER made just under 300K, and has recently been given a plum job at state by Hillary. A reward for services rendered.

Follow the money. The torture propaganda business is all about money and power. They could give a rats ass about whatever "collateral damage" it inflicts on our service men and women. They are lower than ant feces.

Captain Hate

That politico article is a treasure-trove of stupidity, with some of my favorite idiots doing what they do best. I don't think Iowahawk could make them look dumber than their own statements do.


Geez Verner - you are up as early as I am - or are you just going to bed?


If this has been posted, I don't remember seeing it.

Batchelor: Darth Cheney X-Fighter Strike
Bottom line is that we’d successfully defended the nation for seven and a half years against a follow-on attack to 9-11.
maverick muse

Alberto Gonzales is the target for ordering in this morning's "FBI agent present during interrogation to testify against abuse" headline.



"Democrat talking-point, repeated most recently by Carl Levin, the Senate Armed Services chairman and a key Obama ally, that the revelations of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib inspired new terrorist recruits, caused American combat casualties, and made the United States more vulnerable to terrorist attack."

Three things appeared to increase terrorist attacks.One was the news cycle.Secondly any progress made in the war in Iraq.
Thirdly any announcement or visit to Iraq by a Democrat ignited a frenzy of killing.
Certainly Democrats stating that torture increased recruitment would increase recruitment.


"According to them, there have been 83,000 "detainees" in US custody, and 98 deaths."

That gives us a rate of .01% instead of .02%

I think that would be .1%, right? One in 850...
Regardless, these captives are not like prior prisoners of war, who surrendered willingly. They fought to the end and continued to engage in hunger strikes in captivity, which certainly raises your risk of death.


Mark, typepad ate my post!

Yes, it was late and I miscounted my zeros. However, the point remains!

a rate of around 1 in a thousand, in the most horrible of wartime circumstances it STILL one of the lowest in modern military history--if not the lowest all things considered.

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