What Is Meant By "Contradict"?

Carl Hulse of The Times joins the club bashing Nancy Pelosi but they leave us wanting a dictionary with this (my emphasis):

The only other lawmaker present [at pelosi's September 2002 briefing], Porter J. Goss, then a Republican congressman from Florida who was the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and later became the C.I.A. director, has contradicted her account. He said he and Ms. Pelosi were told that the agency intended to use the harsh methods.

Republicans on Friday continued to dispute Ms. Pelosi’s assertion that at her sole 2002 briefing as a member of the House Intelligence Committee, she was told that the Bush administration had determined waterboarding was legal but that it was not being used.

Did the editor actually re-read this before setting it loose on the world?  If Goss heard that the CIA intended to use waterboarding, how does that contradict Pelosi's version that it had not yet been used?  Surely the intention can precede the act.

Here is how Hulse summarized for Friday's edition what Goss wrote in the WaPo:

Porter J. Goss, a former C.I.A. director who as a Republican congressman from Florida attended the September briefing with Ms. Pelosi, said in an article published in The Washington Post that lawmakers were suffering from “amnesia” if they “claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as ‘waterboarding’ were never mentioned.”

I am surprised that the Times descrbies as a contradiction something that, read carefully, may not be.

I am fully supportive of the notion that Nancy Pelosi is daft.  Dana Milbank describes a skeptical press with much about which to be skeptical.  David Freddoso points out that part of Pelosi's story changed even as she told it.  But the Goss statement is just not strong enough to describe it as flatly contradicting Pelosi's version.

THIS, ON THE OTHER HAND, ILLUSTRATES "CONTRADICT":  Nancy Pelosi praises the CIA, denounces herself.

Comments

[clarice]

No, it doesn't flatly contradict it which leads me to believe it was inaccurately reported.
Ot are you suggesting Goss would accuse Pelosi of amnesia even if he supported her account?

[Danube of Thought]

That's two pop fouls in two swings for Goss. Luckily both were out of play.

Panetta's version comes closer to contradicting her directly, as I recall.

I suppose that if Goss is saying that they were told that the CIA did intend to use the techniques on which they were briefed, including waterboarding, that does indeed contradict the version in which she claims that she was never even told of any such intent.

But there were other witnesses to these briefings, and other contemporaneous documents, so much is still to be learned.

[MayBee]

I
DON'T
CARE

She pretended she couldn't talk to anybody about her briefings
We were told Congressmen couldn't bring aides
She didn't say anything when she finally found out about it
She used the accusations of torture against Bush for political purposes
While she acted in every way she could to allow it

The NYTs is sloppy, but Nancy can twist in the political winds she helped create.

[narciso]

Look Nancy Pelosi, is a low down dirty, good for nothing liar, and she did not for any positive purpose, 'the definition of diplomacy' but to undermine the US's
successful counter terror strategy, Thanks to her and Priest,Hersh, Mayer,Ross, et al I'm sure I've left someone out, the next Abu Zubeydah will have the waterboard version of SERE, to condition AQ cadets to avoid interrogation. Many will die, many more will be maimed, Mission Accomplished.

[Boatbuilder]

It is abundantly clear that the Dems left the heavy lifting on national security to the grownups, because they know that it would be foolish and dangerous to do otherwise, and that they can always take political advantage after the immediate danger passes. I for one am willing to believe that Nancy didn't know about waterboarding, because it didn't matter to her and she wasn't listening. The Republicans were going to do whatever nasty stuff needed to be done, and later on the Dems would take maximum advantage when the time was favorable.
There's politics, and there's political courage. Nancy is merely a politician.

[centralcal]

Boatbuilder, I disagree. Nancy is one of those who probably hollered the loudest "are we doing enough?!"

And, once she realized that we were indeed doing the best we could (which turned out to be "enough) and that we were safe for the time being, then turned and accused.

That's how the Nancy's of the world operate.

[verner]

In Sept 2002, why would they NOT tell her? Weren't we still pretty much in the warm afterglow of unity in the face of a mass murdering enemy then? That's only one year after they were all singing God Bless America on the steps of the Capital.

No No No. Not only did she know, she wanted to be a part of it. And if she doesn't shut up and leave the CIA alone, they are going to come up with the briefing notes that show her exuberant enthusiasm.

And since Goss was there, he knows. And as a DCIA, he would double know. He's not an idiot. If it were any different, he could just keep his mouth shut and stay on the golf course.

[Sue]

And then you have Kit Bond saying the CIA doesn't waste time briefing Congress on stuff it isn't going to use. That dog don't hunt, I believe he said.

[PeterUK]

Since Madame Speaker has had so many face lifts,how do you know it is Nancy Pelosi?

[Semanticleo]

This the same horsefeathers Maguire has been
peddling when he nitpicked the outing of a covert CIA agent.

Engineers and beancounters:

Conservative out of compulsion,,,,,

[Semanticleo]

"Look Nancy Pelosi, is a low down dirty, good for nothing liar"

Suddenly, prevarication has a nasty smell to WingNutters.

Olfactory projection.......

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I am surprised that the Times descrbies as a contradiction something that, read carefully, may not be.

Why?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

You know, Leo, this obsessive behavior really don't look adaptive at all. Maybe you should investigate therapeutic help.

[Semanticleo]

"Madame Speaker has had so many face lifts"

Madame Pinochet SHOULD have had one, but didn't.

[Semanticleo]

Chaco;

It is hilarious that you would mention 'adaptive' behavior, as if self-medication were unnecessary for yer condition.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Leo, if there were any "condition" I was embarrassed about or unwilling to talk about, or that I thought you could successfully use against me, you wouldn't know about it.

[Ignatz]

-Suddenly, prevarication has a nasty smell to WingNutters.-

Actually it had just as nasty a smell to us when your ilk were prevaricating about Bush as Nancy's whitewash does now.

The pertinent question is why real lies by your comrades don't bother you now, when you were in high dudgeon about fanciful ones mere months ago.

An even more pertinent one for the rest of us is, what kind of a DSM IV poster boy spends a perfectly nice Saturday engaging in Cleo's insipid behavior?

[clarice]

The poster formerly known as Kim has noted this wonderful catch by Prof jacobson of a 2002 quote on CNN of Nancy Pelosi which indicates she was informed by the CIA of the waterboarding and its being put to use--just as they said they did:

http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/

[clarice]

We know that a certain disruptive poster thrives on the beating he regularly takes here. I propose we close down the S and M show for the night --or--I could unpack those pistolas..

[Semanticleo]

"beating he regularly takes here'

Sue;

Now THAT's a sense of humor......

[gus]

The Bush administration kept this ungrateful bitch completely in the loop.
Did Nancy Pelosi keep Republicans in the loop when they wrote the Porkulus bill.

No.

[She's in it up to her scrawny little pencil neck.]

H/t to judd at Yglesias's blog for the legal insurrection quote. Pelosi's quote to CNN is damning, and it's from May of 2002.

[clarice]

It's one of those QED moments, actually.

[PeterUK]

"I propose we close down the S and M show for the night --or--I could unpack those pistolas.."

Clarice I maintain we are performing a public service.Here Septic is in the hands of experts,our trolls never die on us and we get useful information about the hysterie du jour in the hive.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Plus there's always the chance for a moment of clarity.

[clarice]

When you find that moment, give me a heads up.

PUK in this case it smacks too much of pulling wings off of butterflies.

[JM Hanes]

TM:

"I am surprised that the Times descrbies as a contradiction something that, read carefully, may not be."

As I recall, the Goss statement came in response to Pelosi's earlier claim that she had been told that waterboarding/torture would not be used. Perhaps Hulse's mistake may actually lie in pairing the wrong quotations.

[clarice]

This, as Legal Insurrection notes 'is what Nancy said in 2002:

CNN.com, May 22, 2002: Last Monday night, the New York Joint Terrorism Task Force--a round-the-clock operation at the New York field office of the FBI--got a call from FBI headquarters. Abu Zubaydah, the highest al-Qaeda official to be captured by the U.S., had told interrogators that he had heard other Osama bin Laden loyalists discussing attacks on the Brooklyn Bridge, the Statue of Liberty and other U.S. landmarks. But, a federal law-enforcement official told TIME, Abu Zubaydah had said the conversations took place a while back and claimed he knew of no particular plan. Since his capture in March, Abu Zubaydah has shared some valuable information, says a senior U.S. intelligence source. "He's not b.s.ing us on everything." Then again, says Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, "he is also very skilled at avoiding interrogation. He is an agent of disinformation."

How did she know that if she had not been informed that the CIA found he was lying to them and used E.I.T. methods to find out something of grave significance to our national defense...in other words that the CIA told her what they say they told her and that they did it in 2002.

[PeterUK]

"PUK in this case it smacks too much of pulling wings off of butterflies."

More like pulling the legs off spiders,but I agree,the poor dumb creature knows no better.

[Mark O]

For 50 Bonus Points, compare and contrast:

Announcer: And now, Weekend Update, with Chevy Chase.

Chevy Chase: [ talking into the telephone ] No.. I love it when you make noise. Remember when.. [ notices the audience, hangs up telephone ] Good evening, I'm Chevy Chase, and you're not!

Our top story tonight: Generallissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

Secretary of State Henry Kissinger stated today that he is tired of using his silly accent in public, and will speak in English. This will in no way effect the content of what he has been saying.

In spite of recent allegations of rampant homosexual activities in the professional sports world, from hockey to harness racing, many team owners and executives deny the existence of such practices. Commissioner of Baseball, Bowie Kuhn, and NFL Head, Pete Rozelle, could not be reached for comment this weekend, in the Bridal Suite of the Americana Hotel.

In a speech to the Athens, Georgia, Chamber of Commerce, presidential contender George Wallace said, "I don't judge a man by the color of his skin. I judge him according to how well you can see him in the dark when he smiles."

Chevy Chase: Weekend Update recognizes its obligation to present responsible opposing viewpoints to our editorials. Here to reply to a recent editorial, is Emily Litella.

Emily Litella: I'm here tonight to speak out against busting schoolchildren. Busting schoolchildren is a terrible, terrible thing. I hear this is going on all over the country. Mean policemen arrest little children and put them in jail in the wrong neighborhood, so they can't even play with their little friends. Imagine, busting schoolchildren! The food in jail isn't good, and even though they get bread, I don't believe they can get toast. Or nice cake. Now, who will tuck them in? Where will they hang their leggings? Where will they set up their little lemonade stands? Well, they don't have toys in jail, except maybe..

Chevy Chase: [ interrupting ] Miss Litella?

Emily Litella: Yes?

Chevy Chase: I'm sorry. The editorial was on bussing schoolchildren. Bussing. Not busting.

Emily Litella: Oh. I'm sorry. Never mind.

[Topsecretk9]

TM, have you READ Goss's written editorial in WAPO, not just the stories detailing his statement?

[Melinda Romanoff]

I would venture to guess that an individual that identifies themselves as semantic has little use for the term's use.

Leopold, if you are willing to tackle this across multiple threads and posts, I will venture this debate, provided you stay, on topic, and observe Robert's Rules. I'm not going to play with someone who dips into the kitchen sink and can't stay on topic. I will.

Test me, and your patience.

[Topsecretk9]

Here is what he wrote:

By Porter J. Goss Saturday, April 25, 2009

...A disturbing epidemic of amnesia seems to be plaguing my former colleagues on Capitol Hill. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, members of the committees charged with overseeing our nation's intelligence services had no higher priority than stopping al-Qaeda. In the fall of 2002, while I was chairman of the House intelligence committee, senior members of Congress were briefed on the CIA's "High Value Terrorist Program," including the development of "enhanced interrogation techniques" and what those techniques were. This was not a one-time briefing but an ongoing subject with lots of back and forth between those members and the briefers.

Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as "waterboarding" were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience.

Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:

-- The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.

-- We understood what the CIA was doing.

-- We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.

-- We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.

-- On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.

I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues. They did not vote to stop authorizing CIA funding. And for those who now reveal filed "memorandums for the record" suggesting concern, real concern should have been expressed immediately -- to the committee chairs, the briefers, the House speaker or minority leader, the CIA director or the president's national security adviser -- and not quietly filed away in case the day came when the political winds shifted.

In full LUN

[Melinda Romanoff]

TSK9-

As for myself, I have a tendency to read his stuff due to the fact I've met him and such. Nancy has got the worst Cab Calloway bit of mojo she's trying to pull that I've seen in years (outside of Chicago,different set of rules).

Thanks for the clip.

[CQComeonin]

The porter from Mexico is a pretty funny guy. Didn't he get in trouble for some limos and prostitutes? He left like most OOs do; accusing others of what they've done in plain sight. How could anyone miss Plame, domestic torture as we do; psychiatrists, doctors and nurses and contractors or just well intentioned Americans(who aren't OOs)

Pelosi just got involved with prostitute torturers, but as any OO knows that's why it's whips and chains.

[Cecil Turner]

I am fully supportive of the notion that Nancy Pelosi is daft.

Seems to me the point here is rather that, when she had an opportunity to stand up and be counted on the anti-"torture" side, the person currently leading the charge against "torture" said nothing (or, more accurately, expressed encouragement). The obvious implication is that she didn't consider it torture at the time (probably because it really isn't).

Moreover, while the American people might be split on the issue of whether "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" are a good idea, they can smell a politically-motivated hypocrite from miles away. And Nancy doesn't even try to hide that attractive part of her motivation:

"No letter could change the policy. It was clear we had to change the leadership in Congress and in the White House. That was my job - the Congress part," Pelosi said. [emphasis added]

So, we're having to choose between a bunch of politicians who don't consider what we do to our own troops to be torture . . . and a bunch who implicitly condone "torture" in order to use it in the next election. (And hey, they got away with it on the war vote.) As an added bonus, we get to laugh at the "hopey changey" crowd as their savior adopts the same old policies after rearranging the window-dressing . . . and claims it's all new.

[Rick Ballard]

"we get to laugh at the "hopey changey" crowd as their savior adopts the same old policies after rearranging the window-dressing . . . and claims it's all new."

Cecil,

It seems a bit callous to laugh at the mentally impaired as the depth of their impairment is more fully revealed on a daily basis. OTOH - given the manifest stupidity which they constantly place on public display, perhaps derision is the best tool available to encourage those among them possessing minimal mental faculties to examine the possibility that membership in Ogabe's Dupe Corps requires more effort than the value of any potential reward could ever justify.

When the next terrorist attack hits, the Dems are now on record as having abandoned the interrogation techniques which could have revealed it and on record as wanting to disperse the murderous scum currently justifiably caged at Guantanamo. They aren't going to be able to lie past those two facts.

So far, I score Ogabe as having significantly increased the number of troops deployed in Southwest Asia and having committed himself to military commissions (or tribunals) as the means by which terrorist scum should be judged.

What a huge difference between last year and this year!

[Semanticleo]

"PUK in this case it smacks too much of pulling wings off of butterflies."

"More like pulling the legs off spiders,but I agree,the poor dumb creature knows no better."

Clarice seems to believe she can prohibit responses to my comments and simultaneously
take credit for knocking down my sentences.

When the 'B' team has their asses handed to them, they simply declare victory and depart the field.

Republican Sankhara,,,,,

[boris]

A likely scenario of a 2002 CIA breifing to Pelosi, Goss and others.

1. Justice asserts waterboarding can be legally used extract intel;
   
2. CIA used it on one terrorist;
   
3. It worked;
   
4. CIA plans to use it on several more terrorists.

That would seem to be all the relevant information for congress to excercise oversight. How much is actually necessary? There's no point in breifing (1) if it was never going to be used ... so even that is enough to alert congress to change the law or defund further action. Frankly for Pelosi to claim she only remembers (1) cuts her no slack on the oversight score. The Goss quote does not actually provide an out based on "plans to use it" since in context that does not imply it hasn't already been used.

[verner]

Ok, we have micro parsed San Fran Nan's statements, now let's look at Leon.

For one, I think it is safe to assume that although he is not releasing them, Leon has seen all of the underlying related documents concerning the briefings.

I also believe it is safe to assume that Leon knows that the truth will eventually be leaked to Pincus or someone else.

So if the evidence supported Pelosi's fairy tale, why come out with such a harsh statement? He is pretty much calling her a liar who is politicizing the CIA. He did not have to do that.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Republican Sankhara

Hey, good job. Pali and everything. सङ्खार. And yeah, this is conditional existence, and is something that is "put together" by rational processes.

Of course, your use of it reveals that you don't actually understand the term, but what the hell, at least it was an attempt at intellectual effort.

[Ignatz]

-When the 'B' team has their asses handed to them, they simply declare victory and depart the field.-

WAFI

[verner]

I also don't think we should dismiss the strong signals we are getting from the Obama administration and the press.

We are in the "eye of the Hurricane" as far as the WOT goes. Does anyone doubt it? By the end of the year, we may be facing, indeed likely WILL be facing a nuclear Iran and a Taliban controlled nuclear Pakistan.

I think Obama has finally come to the hard realization that you can not fight a war with the ACLU chained around your neck, and the neo-marxist hate America left twisting your right arm behind your back. Nixing the torture memos, restarting the military tribunals and appointing bad ass Stanley McChrystal are encouraging signs of a steep learning curve in this direction.

This torture mess is not going anywhere. I would imagine Rahm has already called 'tox and told her to STFU, or else. That's why we got the non-apology apology so quickly.

And as far as WBing being torture, Holder has already shown how tough it will be for them to seek prosecution for acts that clearly do not meet the legal definition of "torture." So why bother rehashing the same old stuff--especially when a majority of American voters think that going any further is a bad idea.

[Semanticleo]

The Healthcare Industry tighten THEIR belts?

Over YOUR dead body...............

From Kevin Drum;

" a supposedly blockbuster announcement from a group of healthcare executives: they were 100% with President Obama on his crusade to cut skyrocketing medical expenses and figured they could reduce the growth of healthcare costs by 1.5 percentage points a year. That's a cool $2 trillion over ten years.

That was on Monday, and nobody seemed to have a problem with the announcement. Ditto for Tuesday and Wednesday. On Thursday, however, after, um, consultations, the healthcare honchos started rowing things back:

The president of the American Hospital Association said Thursday that a deal with the White House to cut the growth in health care spending has been “spun way away from the original intent.”

....But in a conference call Thursday, President Richard Umbdenstock told 230 member organizations that the agreement had been misrepresented. The groups, he said, had agreed to gradually ramp up to the 1.5 percentage-point target over 10 years — not to reduce spending by that much in each of the 10 years.

I'm sure the reason it took them three days to correct the record is because they were in such a state of shock initially that they could hardly pick their jaws off the ground. And the reason they all stood around beaming for the cameras when Obama made the announcement is because they were simply paralyzed in The Presence. And the reason they're changing their tune now, away from the spotlights, has nothing to do with the fact that they never had the slightest intention of seriously following through on their cost-cutting promises in the first place.

And I have a bridge to sell you."

[Semanticleo]

"at least it was an attempt at intellectual effort."

Still waiting fer yers.....

[Semanticleo]

BTW; Self-styled grammarian.....I could be mistaken but I believe yer use of 'attempt' and 'effort' is redundant,

[Charlie (Colorado)]

BTW; Self-styled grammarian.....I could be mistaken but I believe yer use of 'attempt' and 'effort' is redundant,

You're right, you are mistaken. Look at the second meaning of "effort", "physical or mental exertion."

[Charlie (Colorado)]

And the reason they're changing their tune now, away from the spotlights, has nothing to do with the fact that they never had the slightest intention of seriously following through on their cost-cutting promises in the first place.

Or, maybe Obama just lied. Again.

[Ignatz]

-Plus there's always the chance for a moment of clarity.-

Charlie,
I know you're speaking of clarity for our dear resident creature from under the floorboards, but the only clarity it will ever recieve is from its last moment in a Roach Motel.
As for the rest of us, it should have become clear what a recidivous dillweed Cleo is the first moment he crawled through the crack in the wall.

[Semanticleo]

Glad yer bright-eyed and bushy-tailed this morn. Thought I'd help you out and keep you from having to exert massive energy and return to the previous thread.

"Did he leave you and Mom for his secretary?"

You sound a little frustrated. I will avoid the urge to suggest you may have Daddy issues, while you change the subject to what you perceive to be MY problem, when all you have to say is whether you can demonstrate the basis for confidence in SERE training's absolutism. Just tell us how you KNOW the guidelines were followed. Be fucking honest, just once.

[verner]

Charlie, if cost cutting was the issue, then the Obama administration would just turn medicare over to the insurance companies.

Talk to anyone in the industry--the fraud and waste is phenomenal. For example, did you know that under medicare rules, appliances like wheelchairs must be RENTED. That means that over time, the guvment pays 10 times what the wheelchair is worth usually. There are tons of examples like that.

Then there's fraud. Right now, I know of someone who works making six figures as a painter--cash only. Not a dime in income tax AND he gets full SSI disability, and medicare. I'd say he alone costs the system a good $100,000 a year.

Get the waste and fraud out of the system, and you will save a hell of a lot more than 1.2%.

[Semanticleo]

C'mon..I know you've got it in you.

Honest clarity, I mean. (hope springs eternal)

[Semanticleo]

Dubya apparently feels the need to compete with Cheney in the Most Outstanding Gibberish category.......

"President Bush said Tuesday that the international community should continue to pressure Iran on its nuclear programs, saying a new U.S. intelligence report finding that Tehran halted its development of a nuclear bomb provides an opportunity.

"I view this report as a warning signal that they had the program, they halted the program," Bush said. "The reason why it's a warning signal is they could restart it."

Bush spoke one day after a new national intelligence estimate found that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program late in 2003, largely because of international scrutiny and pressure. That finding is in stark contrast to the comparable intelligence estimate of just two years ago, when U.S. intelligence agencies believed Tehran was determined to develop a nuclear weapons capability and was continuing its weapons development program.

"To me, the NIE (National Intelligence Estimate) provides an opportunity for us to rally the international community -- to continue to rally the community -- to pressure the Iranian regime to suspend its program," the president said. "What's to say they couldn't start another covert nuclear weapons program.""

[Old Lurker]

OT, but furthering an exchange between Rick & Glenda last night. Rick opined about the demographic imperative facing the soon to retire crowd and what will happen when they compare their decimated 401(K)s to a realistic estimate of their needs...and how their required very accelerated savings might impact the economy.

WaPo has a column today - LUN - that gets at that issue directly.

My related concern expressed in that thread was that the muddle will throw in the towel when they realize how screwed they are having saved so little, and swallow salvation from the Progs regardless of their perhaps normal objection to such statist programs. It that case, the left wins.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Just tell us how you KNOW the guidelines were followed.

Multiple source reported it, some of them not particularly favorable to the issue.

Now, where's my reference for the Japanese who were executed just for weaterboarding without loss of consciousness or beatings? Or even for Japanese who were executed for just the "water cure" in its radically more violent form? You've been evading that one.

[RichatUF]

verner-

**I think Obama has finally come to the hard realization that you can not fight a war with the ACLU chained around your neck, and the neo-marxist hate America left twisting your right arm behind your back.**

Doubtful. The Obama Administration probably commissioned some internal polling and his preening was backfiring because it was such a headlong rush, which required a bit of adjustment. It has provided a nice distration to cram through a 3 500 000 000 000 dollar budget with the heavy lifting on healthcare, cap-and-trade, and other taxes to be determined in budget reconcilation.

The ACLU will be placated, the pictures will be released, LTG. McChrystal's confirmation hearings are going to feature the detainee abuse case because his operation was subject to an 04 Pentagon investigation which resulted in court martials and convictions of some Army Rangers (which is covered by the ACLU's FOIA request). The Obama Administration will give full appeals in US courts to the Gitmo detainees which will result in many of them being released, some into the US as they request asylum. He'll do his best to declare victory in Afghanistan and leave. He'll do his best to coddle and comfort the regime in Iran as he does his level best to disarm the US and Israel.

[Semanticleo]

Are Americans happy? Apparently, they'd be happier if they paid higher taxes....

According to MarketWatch:

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development says people in Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands are the most content with their lives. The three ranked first, second and third, respectively, in the OECD's rankings of "life satisfaction," or happiness.

There are myriad reasons, of course, for happiness: health, welfare, prosperity, leisure time, strong family, social connections and so on. But there is another common denominator among this group of happy people: taxes.

Of course, these nations don't spend the bulk of their tax revenues on corporate welfare for the military/industrial, disaster capitalism complexes. They spend them on programs that help people.

http://www.marketwatch.com/m/story/1d4341a8-3053-4cc0-b83f-7e84a5089b1d/0

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Verner, you don't have to sell me. I'm just pointing out that there's a repeated pattern of Obama claiming to have been promised some amazing feat by someone, only to be followed by the other people in the meeting saying "wait, we didn't say that."

[Semanticleo]

"Multiple source reported it"

I'm not talking about what you find in yer dream-catcher. gimme some cites.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Leo:

(1) I don't spend my every waking moment waiting for you to pose a question. Today's a working day for me.

(2) that NIE — and the Bush quote — is a year and a half old.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

gimme some cites.

That's rich. Let me know when you can back up some of your assertions with cites. In fact, as I recall, you have pending requests for citations that are years old.

[Ignatz]

-It that case, the left wins.-

OL,
I'd say in that case the left wins a battle and loses the war when the working populace revolts.
It was one thing to have a theoretical 90% or 70% top rate on income when the government at all levels was only taking 20-30% of GDP.
When, we're already at 45% before Barry's crapola kicks in and even Clinton was projecting a real, not theoretical, rate of 70% taxation on EVERYBODY without entitlment reform, it seems unlikely to me that model can survive for long.

One way or another leftism is always corrected by reality.

[bolitha]

This is one blog I ALWAYS enjoy reading. Very clever repartee(sp?), etc. SO, why in the world do you answer Cleo?????

[Semanticleo]

" I don't spend my every waking moment waiting for you to pose a question. Today's a working day for me."

So, you don't have any cites, just yer imagination......

[Semanticleo]

"you have pending requests for citations that are years old."

Well, yer the actual factual guy. Rememeber?
I'm just a troll. You have a low bar for yer own expectations, though. Don't you?

[Semanticleo]

So let's all just stop this nonsense about waterboarding's not being torture.

SERE is no guarantee that the 'no death' disclaimer is given to the victim...except in Chacoo's imagination, that is.

[verner]

Rich, you think? Well, maybe. But if it plays out as you say, he is going to look like an appeasing weakling in the face of the most terrifying national security threats in our nation's history. Is Obama really really that stupid?

And it's not like he needs the nasty hard left. In fact, the best way to assure that the dims lose congress, and he ends up being a one timer would be to let them get their way.

[Jane]

Bolitha,

It's a weakness that I hope people will overcome starting right now.

[Captain Hate]

I will avoid the urge to suggest you may have Daddy issues,

Exhibit A in self-contradiction.

[verner]

OL, thanks for that. As usual, the Responsible among us (ie my husband and me) who have always been frugal and saved the advised amounts of income are going to be called upon to bail out the low life deadbeats and losers. Trouble is,even if Obama and company succeed in leeching out what's left of our capital, it still won't be enough by a long shot.

It's enough to make you want to clear out the bank accounts and move to a beach hut in Costa Rica.

[Scott]

OL Thanks for the LUN.
I had trouble reading the article because it relies so heavily on Bogle. Bogle did some great creative work with Vanguard then he became a pundit! See Clarice's comments about pundits. A slightly different view- pundits who do not practice what they preach give me a headache.

From professional experience:
Somewhere along about the late 50's or early 60's a lot of people realize they don't have enough to sustain their lifestyle, most start saving more and plan to continue working past 65. Some do adopt the defeatist attitude you allude to but i would say most don't. Granted there is a large selection issue for those i meet with versus thosse i don't so i am not claiming any other than ancedotal evidence here.

There is a problem with low savings rate for retirement, and a lot of people will never get it. I believe the majority will, call me an optimist.

[RichatUF]

verner-

Obama is a radical leftist and everyone in his administration is a radical leftist. He might be able to, for short periods of time, adjust politcally to a more moderate course, but those short periods are for planning sessions to better conceal his radicalism.

[Scott]

Verner

Prior to 2008 Costa Rica had large amount of building going on and more in planning, all to accommodate retiring Americans and Europeans. One project even called their condo's beach huts. They looked a lot more modern then my imagination had pictured though! There are also several sights in Mexico with the same ideas.

[Old Lurker]

Ignatz, it does correct over time perhaps, but the time frame might be longer than some of us have. Russians alive in 1917 did not see 1987. Cubans might be sick of their 57 Chevys, but the dictator is still there. France has been, well France, for...forever?

The American experiment was a first ever, and who else has copied it in the Founders' purest form since?

The pendulum surely will swing back from left to right, but each time it touches the left side, it picks up some contamination that sticks, and over time the accumulated junk alters its action on the clockworks.

I am glad to see you think of government as I do - the total claim on GDP it consumes. We had been stable in the 30-33% range for a long time. Bush with TARP headed it to 40% and Obama has tipped it in as you say about 45%. Scarier still is Obama's budget blueprint takes it to 50% +/- and that truly is French levels, with all that portends. And that assumes the GDP will achieve what they think in spite of the oppressive weight of the new scheme.

Finally about those 70-90% marginal rates we used to have. Forgotten from those times is how many so-called loopholes existed that were erased in the Reagan re-do in return for the lower rates. Of course I greatly prefer the lower marginal rates even with fewer "workarounds", but what they all miss is that a return to pre-Reagan top rates without the escape hatches will absolutely destroy this economy.

Which brings me back to my first point: how long do we have...

[Scott]

OT
Great new satire the Obama card. See LUN

[Captain Hate]

There is a problem with low savings rate for retirement, and a lot of people will never get it. I believe the majority will, call me an optimist.

You're an optimist. Popular culture has been steadily beating the drum for excusing irresponsible behavior and telling you that you just don't "get it" by acting like a grownup. That allure is hard to reject if you're emotionally stunted enough to buy into it.

[Danube of Thought]

Beuatifully spoken, OL.

When the Reagan rate cuts went through, I told everyone I knew "keep your eye on the ball. Watch the exemptions and deductions disappear like the morning dew." The cuts did indeed stimulate an extraordinary (and unprecedented) two decades of prosperity, but in the final analysis the feds still ended up getting their historical share of GDP. What is most significant to me now is that, regardless of what sleight of hand we see in the details, that share is going to increase very significantly, to levels we've never seen before.

And as the post-Soviet Russian economist said, "It's easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup. Turning fish soup back into an aquarium is another matter."

[Danube of Thought]

Would it be too much to ask for Goss simply to say "we were told about waterboarding, and we were told that they had been using it?"

[centralcal]

"It's a weakness that I hope people will overcome starting right now."

Ditto Jane.

[peter]

verner-

Obama is a radical leftist and everyone in his administration is a radical leftist. He might be able to, for short periods of time, adjust politcally to a more moderate course, but those short periods are for planning sessions to better conceal his radicalism.

I could not have said it better myself. Obama believes that appeasement via turning the US into a third rate economy without nukes will keep us safe from terror. Public will learn the hard way the folly of our little exercise in narcissism. oh, and 'Cleo, please get a life.

[verner]

Scott, I love Costa Rica. If I had to pick a foreign country for retirement, CR would be it.

[clarice]

Did we remember to mark the May 12 anniversary of the Jason Leopold unmasking?

http://www.cjr.org/politics/jason_leopold_caught_sourceles.php

If not, a belated anniversary to the man who screwed Truthout and so many others.

[Scott]

Captain Hate

I agree fewer people are acting liking grownups. I believe the majortiy still do and the slope of the downward line is not that great. Most data sources that inform us of this downward trend also continually underestimate things like the percent of country that is center right, number of republicans, number of religous right etc after all if they didn't exagerate it wouldn't be NEWS.

One example look back at forecasts/estimates for homelessness etc.in the 80's 90's and today.

I know a lot of words to say i'm an optimist.

[PeterUK]

"Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands are the most content with their lives."

Ah yes! The Demographically doomed "going quietly into the dark night".

[verner]

Rich, no doubt he's a radical leftist, but more importantly he is a SUPREME EGOIST.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Old Lurker]

Bumper sticker of the week award goes to Bolitha's 10:50 final line.

Just sayin...

[verner]

Ah yes! The Demographically doomed "going quietly into the dark night".

But at least they can enjoy a lot of hard porn and canned ham while they're doing it PUK.

[pagar]

Verner, Have you looked at Panama?

[Captain Hate]

Scott,

I hope you're right because we'll all benefit if you are. Maybe I just encounter too many bad apples....

[verner]

Scarier still is Obama's budget blueprint takes it to 50% +/- and that truly is French levels, with all that portends. And that assumes the GDP will achieve what they think in spite of the oppressive weight of the new scheme.

Oui, but do we all know how much business in France is conducted sous la table? Tax cheat thy name is Pierre....The French are masters at bypassing their government, it's almost a patriotic duty, because the country would not function unless they did.

[verner]

No Pagar, but I have had friends over the years who lived in the Canal Zone, and loved it.

[pagar]

It's better now, much better!

[RichatUF]

Old Lurker-

Thanks for the WaPo link. Interesting that Bogle is jumping on the anti-401k bandwagon echoing much of Teresa Ghilarducci's work (LUN). Seems that the Dems smell a pot of money and want to start redistributing it, for "income security" and "for the children and elderly" of course. Don't really see how savings could increase by the numbers Bogle suggests when debt service costs (accounting for the politcal risks) and taxes (accounting for all the new spending and plugging the holes in the deficit) are increasing.

How much time, who knows? I can't even figure out the endgame.

[PeterUK]

"Scarier still is Obama's budget blueprint takes it to 50% +/- and that truly is French levels, with all that portends"

More to the point.France had to expand the system via the EU to get money to finance herself through scams like the Common Agricultural Policy,>a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy">CAP.This madcap scheme raises the food bill of every household and subsidises the French Farmers.

[verner]

How much time, who knows? I can't even figure out the endgame.

I don't think they can either Rich. Eventually it's going to dawn on them that Socialism has never worked, anywhere, because eventually even the best and brightest won't work their hearts out for a pittance while three fourths of the population is sitting on their fat butts slurping up the slop in the guvment trough.

[Rick Ballard]

"Somewhere along about the late 50's or early 60's a lot of people realize they don't have enough to sustain their lifestyle, most start saving more and plan to continue working past 65."

Scott,

That's true if "a lot" refers to that portion of the owner class which did not take advantage of the income increase which generally hits at 45 to start salting some away. It's not true for the renter class at all. The renter class is not even going to have the luxury of continuing to work in the same job beyond 65 unless the economy picks up very substantially.

It's the addition of those owners who constitute "a lot" in your formulation to the very substantial renter base which is worrisome wrt political calculation. The renter class has no birthright to exchange - they'll go for the pottage damn near every time on a "something is better than nothing" basis. The improvident owners are very likely to do so as well (kinda goes with "improvident").

If the aim of the muslim scum is to reduce opposition to the spread of the death cult through weakening the powers which have the capacity to resist then we should anticipate a strike in the late fall. Part of the timing of the 9/11 strike was tied to the economic situation in '00-'01 and the situation today makes Clinton's dot.com bust look absolutely mild in retrospect.

It's enough to worry an optimist.

[Old Lurker]

Love the optimism, Scott...but Cap'n wins this one, with a twist.

You guys know I wax on some, particularly on weekends. I have been thinking a lot about the wedding we just hosted. As I mentioned it was a military wedding with a number of young officers present, and I mentioned how impressive they were as a group and how uplifting that was to this grouchy old man.

The more I think about that week, the more I realize how impressive were all of the young friends of my two daughters (mid 20's). Any generation would look at that room and have nothing but great optimism for our future. Safe to say they are smarter, healthier, more educated (yes in spite of the system that did that), more patriotic, and more spiritual than was, for sure my 60's cadre, and I would say right up there with the greats from our history.

You could parachute that group into any situation under any set of rules, and they will master whatever the system is.

The difference is that these young people are now the exception (the cream is always the exception I know), but this group is confronted (for the first time I wonder?) with a critical mass of true believers on the left, and a giant muddle in the middle, that is so illiterate and uneducated, and so uniformed and unthoughful that they know not the damage they do to the system that produced their best and brightest.

Which is a long winded way to agree with an observation Rush makes better than most: we truly have become a bipolar society. Natural selection will always work in the long term, but like someone said a few threads back, we need some fruit fly cycles to hurry up and get there!

[RichatUF]

Old Lurker-

One other thought about the WaPo article is that the attack on 401k's from the left is an attempt to put in place a "guaranteed minimum income" more in line with the more radical visions of Roosevelt's New Deal. More just brainstorming the idea...YMMV.

More later.

[centralcal]

Jim Geraghty at NRO's Campaign Spot got this response from the Association of Former Intelligence Officers re: Pelosi's statements:

"Gene Poteat, president of AFIO, offered this statement:

Those CIA officers chosen to brief the Congress, and especially the intelligence committees, are very senior, experienced officers, who well know the reputation and future of the CIA, as well as their own jobs, are on the line should they be perceived as not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Such restrictions, however, do not apply to members of the Congress when they then appear before the public.

Zing."

[Ignatz]

-Forgotten from those times is how many so-called loopholes existed that were erased in the Reagan re-do in return for the lower rates.-

OL,
That's why I called them theoretical rates. The loopholes could exist only as long as the gov share of GDP stayed relatively benign. When it balloons past 50 and 60% as Barry's new entitlements collide with the burgeoning SS and medicare obligations of the incipient geezers we will have to return to the previous rates sans loopholes; it's simple arithmetic.
That's when the immovable, crotchety-old-object meets the unstoppable, six-geezers-and-a-family-to-support revolutionary force.