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June 04, 2009

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Danube of Thought

"Same voters" also includes the so-called Hispanics, who were overwhelmingly in favor of Prop. 8.

Footnote to don't-ask-don't-tell: recall that Colin Powell was strongly against changing it, and was principally responsible for carrying the day against any change. Wonder where he would come out on the issue today, and whether anyone will ask him.

clarice

We could let the troops vote on it and then refuse to count their ballots --as usual.

Jane

NH voted to allow gay marriage yesterday. Apparently this is now so common place that it barely deserves a headline.

dk70

Bill Clinton was the first black president. Will Barack Obama become known as the first gay one?

BumperStickerist

I've decided to wait until some wise Latina tells me what to make of all this.

.

PaulV

Perhaps his connection to his father gives him pause on same sex marriage? More like Ibama's handlers wishes than he avoid the issue.

Jane

The president figures he has the gays, and so no need to placate them. That way he can also get the anti-gays.

Neo

I'm sure that Barry and Rahm are thinking ..
Oh my God, they'll all vote for Republicans
... then they laugh and laugh

Neo

undermine recruiting

LOL I was reading that the Pentagon needs more money than the last appropriation because, with the help of the recession, recruiting is too good.

verner

I just heard on FOX that Saudi textbooks tell the kids that Homosexuality is punishable by death...and Ibama tells us that we can not impose our will on the Muslim world.

Earth to Sully.

Jack is Back!

In 1993 you had Sam Nunn (more powerful on this subject than a Colin Powell). Ah, the good old days of conservative southern democrats. I guess Zell Miller is the last of them if you don't count Mary Landrieu. I wonder where you'd put Jim Webb in this calculation?

That is what Obama is trying to avoid - stepping in it like Bill did. And Bill thought he was the "smartest guy in the room" unlike the O who "knows damn well he is the smartest guy in the room because he won". There is no consensus in the military that changing current policy is a strong possibility. More and more as we move toward a more decentralized command structure and innovative war strategy and small unit tactics - unit adhesion is more than nice to have it is mandatory.

ben

Mary Landrieu and Jim Webb are not conservative southern democrats. They appear somewhat moderate now because the moonbat left took over the party.

PaulL

As far as I know, tough guy Jim Webb has never taken a prominent position counter to the majority of his party.

Strawman Cometh

Jim Web does like guns, well, his own anyway.

GMax

Did Webb ever truly admit it was his gun? I know he blamed his stafer initially, but did he come clean and admit his "mistake"?

Strawman Cometh

Firing competent translators, intelligence analysts or other backline support personnel for being a (non-flaming) queer is stupid. But unit cohesion for combat units is paramount. I imagine the same argument was employed against Truman's racial integration in 1948. However, homosexualist advocates would be wise (if that is possible) to not cite this as an argument. It is one thing to tolerate, to learn to get along with and to trust a man of a different race. It is quite another to have a man checking you out in the foxhole or shower. Gives a new meaning to "I got your back". But again, I'm an old fart, it is a new generation; they may see it differently.

Strawman Cometh

Gmax,
You are correct, sir! Casual googling, at least, doesn't show where Webb ever came clean, per Webb's wikipedia entry:
"On March 26, 2007, a senatorial aide of Webb, Phillip Thompson, was arrested for carrying Webb's loaded pistol as he entered the Russell Senate Office Building and for carrying unregistered ammunition. The weapon was discovered when Thompson went through an X-ray machine with a briefcase that contained a loaded pistol and two additional loaded magazines.[43] Charges against the aide were dismissed after prosecutors concluded it could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Thompson was aware that the gun and ammunition were in the briefcase.[44] Webb responded to his aide's arrest by reiterating his support for gun-owners' rights:

"I’m a strong supporter of the Second Amendment; I have had a permit to carry a weapon in Virginia for a long time; I believe that it’s important; it’s important to me personally and to a lot of people in the situation that I’m in to be able to defend myself and my family."[45]"

daddy

Narciso commented at the tail end of a thread 4 posts back, about a new attack against Sarah Palin by Senator Mark Begich. For folks interested in what's definitely on the boil up here, and what is probably going to be the next big attack on Sarah politically, I hope you don't mind if I comment OT here.

My guess is that not too far in the future Obama is going to start making noises through Begich about the inadequacy of Sarah Palin in successfully pursuing a Natural Gas Pipeline. I don't think Obama will actually do anything about assisting in the building of a pipeline, unless he can get all the credit for it, but I am positive he'll use the issue to continue to destroy Sarah Palin.

I've gone on before about how I personally favored Frank Murkowski's (Ex Republican Governor/and Senator) pipeline ideas over Sarah's AGIA option. Well today Murkowski">http://www.thealaskastandard.com/content/palin-gas-team-delay-project-several-years">Murkowski published an Op-ed hammering Sarah hard for her inability to get a pipeline going, and yesterday he requested an airing of his anti-Sarah op-ed via Talk Radio.

In the big scheme of things Murkowski is indisputably Conservative and a very fervent voice in trying to get a pipeline established. With Murkowski now providing cover, almost as if orchestrated the ADN pops up today with this">http://www.adn.com/money/industries/oil/pipeline/story/818558.html">this story which now shows Begich and Obama jumping on the Murkowski bandwagon attack against Sarah. Murkowski's Republican Bona Fides makes this a very difficult assault to successfully push back against, especially if the Main Stream Media, via these 3 guys, turn Sarah's AGIA (Alaska Gasline Inducement Act), one of Sarah's perceived positive accomplishments, into a National issue easily posited as an ill-conceived failure. Imagine the delight to any national reporter of shoving a microphone into the face of Frank's daughter, U.S. Senator Lisa Murkowski, for critical comments about Sarah's Gas Pipeline.

I am not trying to hammer Sarah, but I am trying to put info out here to you guys to show what she's possibly going to be up against. These concluding comments from former Republican Governor Murkowski's Op-ed are going to be hard to rebut:

"Contrast this with the status of AGIA, in which the current administration:

• has negotiated an agreement with TransCanada, which has no gas and no ability to finance a gas line;

• has no negotiating strategy by which the producers and the state can come into commercial alignment;

• will not see contract negotiations begin between TransCanada and the producers, if ever, until after the 2010 open season, which is destined to fail because there is no commercial alignment between the producers and TransCanada; and

• has no Plan B because its gas team is wedded to AGIA, which is a losing strategy.

The bottom line is that by the end of the Palin administration, Alaska will have wasted four years in attempting to get a gas line that could be far along by now had the Palin team simply picked up the SGDA contract we handed it."


jimmyk

But unit cohesion for combat units is paramount.

Agreed, and these are life and death matters.

A different but related point, one I've been thinking about since the investigation into that plane crash in Buffalo: The investigation revealed that the pilot and copilot were engaged in some idle chitchat during a critical time when such conversation is expressly prohibited. I can't help but think that the fact that the pilot was a 40-something male and the copilot a 24-year-old attractive female might have had something to do with that. I'm not blaming her, and I'm not saying there's an easy answer, but it seems that one is not really allowed to raise such questions (about the consequences of mixing the sexes in the cockpit). Had such questions been raised, maybe 50 people would be alive today instead of incinerated last February.

Charlie (Colorado)

It is one thing to tolerate, to learn to get along with and to trust a man of a different race. It is quite another to have a man checking you out in the foxhole or shower.

Why? Unless you're afraid he'll make a pass at you and you're say "yes".

Charlie (Colorado)

Had such questions been raised, maybe 50 people would be alive today instead of incinerated last February.

because, after all, males never engage in idle chitchat.

jimmyk

because, after all, males never engage in idle chitchat.

What a stupid response. If I were to say "Don't drive drunk" would you respond "because, after all, sober people never get into accidents"?

clarice

Actually, I think Chaco's points are well-taken.


Speaking of well-taken points, I'm listening to a re run of Rush's show and he's just done the greatest riff on the media treatment of unemployment under Bush and its treatment of that under Obama.
Fantastic!

He earns every one of the millions of dollars he makes.

narciso

Well Flynn, for what it's worth, some folks seem to have another perspective

narciso

There's also this reminder, from a trade publication, of one of these players

Foo Bar

"Same voters" also includes the so-called Hispanics, who were overwhelmingly in favor of Prop. 8.

Overwhelmingly? According to a CNN exit poll, Latino men voted for it 54% to 46% and Latino women voted for it 52% to 48%. That's hardly overwhelming.

recall that Colin Powell was strongly against changing it, and was principally responsible for carrying the day against any change. Wonder where he would come out on the issue today, and whether anyone will ask him.

In December, he said "we should definitely reevaluate it" and that "it's been 15 years, and attitudes have changed".

jimmyk

Actually, I think Chaco's points are well-taken.

On the contrary, similar issues arise in the military regarding the impact of dynamics between men and women on cohesion, never mind the high pregnancy rates. Well, as I said, one is not really allowed to raise such questions, not even on JOM, apparently.

better trolls, please, or fewer

54% to 46%...That's hardly overwhelming.

Yeah, 54-46 is pretty close. If it had been 52-46....

Ignatz

--Well, as I said, one is not really allowed to raise such questions, not even on JOM, apparently.--

jimmyk,
You can raise em all you want as far as I'm concerned.
I spent six years in a SAC unit as many of its traditional male roles were filled by women. The result was a permanent degradation of efficiency, readiness, competence and unit cohesion.

Foo Bar

Yeah, 54-46 is pretty close. If it had been 52-46...

I readily acknowledge that Obama's victory was not anywhere near "overwhelming" in terms of the popular vote.Those who refer to it as such are wrong.

Do you seriously contend that 53% or so (averaging the Latino men and Latino women percentages) constitutes "overwhelming" support?


clarice

You can raise them, jimmy, and I don't even doubt Ignarz' assertion..I think the nature of the unit and its duties should be a consideration in evaluating who is assigned to it.
Its your example of idle chit chat being more likely between a man and a woman pilot that I question.

Other stories indicate both had minimal training and at least one had commuted a long distance to work--suggesting fatigue due to non complaince with FAA rules.

As for the shower example--history is replete with ancient examples of cohesive homosexual warriors but I grant you that was in places like ancient Greece where societal standards were different.

Jane

It is quite another to have a man checking you out in the foxhole or shower. Gives a new meaning to "I got your back".

Strawman,

The problem with that proposition is that under DADT they can still check you out, you just don't know it.


Would you be more comfortable with that?

Jane

Its your example of idle chit chat being more likely between a man and a woman pilot that I question.

Me too. I just don't think professionalism has anything to do with gender.

clarice

FooBar:"Do you seriously contend that 53% or so (averaging the Latino men and Latino women percentages) constitutes "overwhelming" support?"

It depends. If this were a presidential election when all the get out the vote gangs were at work, maybe not, but as I understand it there was little of interest besides the proposition and no real organized, well-funded group searching for Hispanic voters and taking them to the polls. In other words these people got off their asses and got themselves to the polls in whcih case I think it is a substantial show of non-support for same sex marriage.

Strawman Cometh

Jane,
I suppose. DADT keeps the ogling discreet. I still got a sweet pair of gams and my ass has barely dropped, I had to quit the gym for all the catcalls

Chaco,
In your dreams, big boy

jimmyk

I just don't think professionalism has anything to do with gender.

I guess all the stories I've heard, and the instances I've witnessed, of male-female relationships complicating the workplace must have been figments of everyone's imagination. It just never happens.

Or Charlie can now come along and cleverly say, gee, I guess all-male or all-female workplaces never have any complications.

I'll say again: I'm not blaming the women, or suggesting that there's an easy solution, but denial is probably the worst response.

daddy

Breaking news from Alaska regarding Ted Steven's type Prosecutions:

The Holder Justice Department has just recommended the immediate release of 2 convicted Republican State Legislator's, due to The Prosecutors illegally with-holding information from the Defense during trial that would have benefitted the Defendants.
In echoes of Ted Steven's, at least 1 guy and I believe both were partially ensnared by Bill Allen wearing a wire, exactly as happened to Ted Stevens. Here">http://www.adn.com/news/politics/fbi/story/819539.html">Here is the link. I thought both guys were guilty, but I was relying on the Media for my info, so who the heck knows. I pass this on to you Lawyers for comment, but man, something is rotten with Justice in Alaska.

sbw

"something is rotten with Justice in Alaska"

More precise: "something is rotten with Justice"

Jane

I suppose. DADT keeps the ogling discreet. I still got a sweet pair of gams and my ass has barely dropped, I had to quit the gym for all the catcalls

Strawman,

Did you ever ogle women? Do you feel guilty about it? Imagine what it is like to be a stunningly gorgeous woman.

It's weird them many men get so freaked out at the idea of being eye candy, but have not problems perving on eye candy.

It's not an accusation. Just a thought.

Jane

I guess all the stories I've heard, and the instances I've witnessed, of male-female relationships complicating the workplace must have been figments of everyone's imagination. It just never happens.

Jimmy,

Lots of things happen - but the one you have cited seems small potatoes in the scheme of things. And in fact there is a remedy employed by lots of companies. It's not allowed. So it's not nearly as bad as trying to fire an under performing minority or something like that.

I wouldn't saddle those two pilots with bringing down the plane due to sexual tension. My guess is pilots have lots of interesting and weird discussion in the air, regardless of their gender. None of them crash the plane.

Jane

It's weird THAT many men

Sheesh

Jane

have NO problems.

sorry about that.

PaulL

Daddy,

What is Sarah's response about the pipeline?

clarice

Daddy--On the wrong thread I thanked you for that interesting report.

daddy

Sorry Guys, Just catching up and need to educate myself on Sarah and the Pipeline.

Clarice, that breaking Justice Department news clobbered everything starting about 2 hours back, so I pedaled home ASAP and posted it immediately. Had 3 different Talk Stations on the headset and One of the Lawyers for Kohring was very positive. Everybody is livid at the Justice Department. What surprised me, was the "Name that Party" game in Reverse. Whenever these goes were all going down it was wall to wall "Republican so and so was convicted today etc." Today, on all 3 stations and especially at the top of the hour local news updates, the Political affiliation of these guys was never mentioned at all.
I have no idea if these guys were guilty or not. I feel 100 per cent that Stevens was innocent but these guys I don't know about. Thanks for publicizing this.

And I hope my earlier Sarah Pipeline Post did not offend. I just want us prepared and educated.

jimmyk

Other stories indicate both had minimal training and at least one had commuted a long distance to work

Accidents usually have multiple factors, the absence of any one of which would have prevented the accident. While I'd be the first to admit there are lots of unnecessary laws and regulations, the fact that there's a Federal law against pilots chitchatting when the plane is below 10,000 feet is probably there for a reason.

JM Hanes

Chalk up another group of folks who never bothered to check out Obama's career in the state legislature. He sold his GLBT supporters down the river on what he had promised would be a signature piece of legislation. No surprises here.


Stawman:

Somehow, I have a hard time believing that sex tops anybody's list when guys are under fire in foxholes, but what do I know?

clarice

I passed that pipeline story on to people I know who worked with her to get that pipeline approved. Really, you are an invaluable reporter on Alaska which gets little coverage here.

jimmyk

And in fact there is a remedy employed by lots of companies. It's not allowed.

And it happens anyway. Just like the law against chitchat below 10,000 feet. Just like when parents tell their teenagers "Don't do it!" There's such a thing as human nature, and it takes a bit more than rules and regulations to counteract it.

daddy

Paul L,

Narciso linked this">http://www.newsminer.com/news/2009/jun/04/palin-gas-line-supporters-dismiss-pipeline-critici/">this Fairbanks News Miner story containing responses from Sarah and supporters to the Murkowki/Begich Criticisms.

I was hoping to hear some back and forth on that on talk radio when the Justice Department bombshell clobbered todays conversations. I will try to pay attention for updates.

daddy

If you guys could get my boss to hire a bunch of qualified, hot looking, young 25 year old co-pilotesses, I would happily conduct an experiment for JOM by flying around the world with them and observing how they effect my behavior. Let me see if I can dig up his number.

FWIW, I personally know 5 sets of husband/wife drivers in the company. 4 sets are still married to each other, and the only ones I don't want to have together in the same cockpit are the divorced ones.

I knew one set when they were dating and would always bid trips together and that was no problem. I think in Commercial Aviation it always simply depends on individuals doing what they ought to do, at the time that it ought to be done.

Ralph L

REBF

I would think the biggest problem would be introducing a known 'mo into a unit, or having one for an officer or non-com.

PaulL

Thanks, Daddy and Narciso.

narciso

It's an intriguing thing to consider, daddy, were these folks, Kosring and Kott,
targeted much like Ney and Feeney and Delay were with Abramoff, in order to clear a path for the Democrats, that Sarah just happened to pick up on; I think she's much more skeptical of any authority or edict that comes on high from Washington, she learned this during the campaign, theStevens
acquittal and now this news confirms it, doesn't look like people are buying Begich's
game, judging from the comments on the various articles at the News Miner and the
Standard

Louie723

"Did you ever ogle women? Do you feel guilty about it? Imagine what it is like to be a stunningly gorgeous woman."

The difference being that those stunningly gorgeous women are not required to shower with ogling men.

narciso

Hey we're number 55, on the 100 most influential blogs, but the Huffington Post and Think Progress, are No. 1 and 2, no wonder this country has gone insane

daddy

Don't know the answers Narciso but thanks for following this so closely.

A bunch of State Repub's went down during this whole corruption investigation. When the Fed's invaded Representative Ben Steven's office, (Ted's son) that was huge news and painted the entire Republican State apparatus as completely awash in corruption. IIRC, I believe that that's when folks just threw their hands up and became resigned to the meme that the Old boy Republican network in the State was hopelessly corrupt. Now with this on the heels of Ted's bogus conviction overturned, I think answers are going to be demanded of exactly what was going on regarding the Prosecutors, and I think that's going to make folks skeptical of anything that comes out of Big Government's mouthpieces. In that regard, I think that definitely works to Sarah's advantage.

One decent radio comment today was about how a few of these Rep's who plea bargained for reduced sentences were probably kicking themselves at today's revelation. Kohring's mom I think had to re-mortgage her home to take out $50,000 to try to unsuccessfully keep her son out of jail. He had come off via media, etc, as being guilty as sin, yet I believe he vowed to not cut his hair or shave in jail because he swore he was innocent. On released tapes of Bill Allen bribing him it looked bad. But I think folks now are so much more angry at a corrupt Justice Department that screw what the tapes look like, its the Prosecutors who are the bad guys and thats who they are angry at and want answers from. I see none of this as negative to Sarah.

FWIW, yesterday Fagan said that Murkowski had contacted him in order to get his Op-Ed posted on The Alaskan Standard Blog. Andrew Halcro has canceled his show and quit blogging, so Dan Fagan is now pretty much the only game in town, and Halcro's radio replacement is much less anti-Sarah than Halcro was.

Begich's handpicked successor as acting Mayor, Matt Claman, has been wonderfully attacked for legitimate corruption by Fagan, and though the ADN and News Channels fail to mention it, that is bad for Begich and is definitely resounding with the Talk Show audience.

Oh, and also a late news blurb says GreenPeace or some such organization is livid at the Obama Admin for failing to comply with mandated timelines to put some seal on an endangered list. Have no idea if that'll have legs, but looks like a very interesting summer up here.

Greg Q

However, troops in combat, or likely to be in combat, are probably going to focus on issues that can help them stay alive and achieve their missions.

Yes, they are. For example, troops going into combat are unlike to want to have their sergeants picking who will be sent out on missions based on who the sergeants do, or don't, want to have sex with. Or on who is willing to sleep with the sergeant in order to get out of risky missions.

Jane

The difference being that those stunningly gorgeous women are not required to shower with ogling men.

Right, you just undress them with your eyes, right Louie?

clarice

I would not downplay so easily the serious dangers that sexual tensions can add to a military mission,Jane.I've never been in the military but once on an adventure in Morocco our guide put our lives in very serious danger because he'd been humiliated the night before when he tried to sleep with one of the women as we camped out in the Atlas mountains. Sexual attraction and rebuffs of advances do cause people to behave stupidly.

Jane

Clarice,

Yeah but that's true if you have women in the military (or the workplace) or gays or anyone else (people who talk funny or look scary) or whatever.

So you deal with it.

What struck me by the conversation was the notion that men who have been perving on good looking women forever (and women deal with it quite nicely for the most part) suddenly turn squeamish and demand remedies at the idea that someone is perving on them.

They really need to man up.

Cecil Turner

What struck me by the conversation was the notion that men who have been perving on good looking women forever (and women deal with it quite nicely for the most part) suddenly turn squeamish and demand remedies at the idea that someone is perving on them.

Nonsense. Would women have no objection to showering with the guys? Somehow I don't think so. The same objection applies to men having to shower with openly gay men.

The problem with that proposition is that under DADT they can still check you out, you just don't know it.
The morale issue is caused by perception, so yes, the lack of knowledge solves the problem.

For example, troops going into combat are unlike to want to have their sergeants picking who will be sent out on missions based on who the sergeants do, or don't, want to have sex with.

By far the biggest issue. And contrary to popular myth, aggressive homosexual behavior (sexual harassment) by seniors is already a problem. As is sexual harassment by heterosexuals. But the usual military precaution (gender segregation) does not work for the former, and it tends not to be reported. It's probably manageable, but hardly a trivial issue in ground combat units.

Jane

Nonsense. Would women have no objection to showering with the guys? Somehow I don't think so. The same objection applies to men having to shower with openly gay men.

Cecil,

Does everyone in the military shower together? Do women have group showers as well as men?

The morale issue is caused by perception, so yes, the lack of knowledge solves the problem.

Or making group showers voluntary which I suspect would be far easier.

boris

"making group showers voluntary"

You seem to have a campus-like perception of life in the military. At US bases that might work. In Afghanistan not so much.

Besides showers are just being used as an example or analogy. If you can agree that women prefer their own showers and bathrooms maybe you could understand how forced dangerous and intimate living conditions could be a concern.

clarice

I agree, Boris, but note that many of the Ivy League schools have coed bathrooms.Sometimes (as in Princeton's first coed year) only coed nathrooms.Yuck.

Jane

Boris,

If women don't take group showers why do men?

And no I don't see the danger. I don't think most gays are interested in seducing unwilling partners any more than I think most men are rapists.

boris

Well what you don't see should nt be used in place of a reasonable argument.

Anyway, "seducing" and "raping" are even more different than apples and oranges. When some guy pulls a BJ Clinton on a woman, she can slap his face and he isn't supposed to hit her back.

When some gay pulls a BJ Clinton on a GI, you can bet it gets rough real fast.

Jane

Well it seems to me that a man is a lot less vulnerable in the same situation based on their different body structure.

(If you can be blinded Boris so can everyone else)

glasater

I spent over six years in dormitory living when I was young and trust me one cannot be modest in that kind of environment.

boris

"a lot less vulnerable"

So the women hits the man for being fresh only when she's more vulnerable?

I d i d n o t k n o w t h a t

Guess I figured there was some anger there regarldess of "vulnerability". Are you sure you're not using a cop out excuse here?

Then it must be a guy thing. We don't have a "one free grope" rule. Trust me on this.

JM Hanes

I can see how straight men would find it problematic. If guys of different ranks are all taking showers together, even the appearance of pressure, if not abuse, or just a moment of careless physicality could also crank things up another notch.

It's not a simple problem. It seems a shame to think that men can't take up arms for their country, unless they're willing to pretend they're not gay, and I think it's downright stupid to refuse the services of an Arabic speaker when you need one, if he won't agree to maintain that fiction. I'm in no position to judge the trade-offs though.

Jane

I'm just not clear on the showering together thing. I'd be shocked to find that was typical.

And boris, you are talking to yourself. Your arguments are undermined for me by your contempt for the gays. (Just as mine probably are for you by my lack of contempt for the gays.)

sbw

Not sure showering has much to do with anything. I don't mind showering with most others... although I don't want to have to get out the eye bleach.

Louie723

"I'm just not clear on the showering together thing. I'd be shocked to find that was typical."

Then you apparently haven't served in the military. Eating, sleeping, showering are usually not done at one's own convenience.

Asking men to get nekkid with openly gay servicemembers is about like asking women to do so with men, and then saying, "What are you worried about? They're not allowed to touch you!".

Oh I guess that's ok then.

Louie723

"If women don't take group showers why do men?"

Back when I was in the Army there was no choice in the matter. There would be one large common shower per platoon. That may not be the case anymore, I don't know.

In the 70's I knew a girl who enlisted in the Marines. She said that in boot camp a large percentage of her fellow trainees were gay, and that during the night many of them would climb into the bunks of other gay females and do whatever. This in a large open bay. It was so demoralizing that she asked for a discharge and got out.


pearl

Freshwater pearls
Pearl necklace
Cultured pearl
Pearl ring

Jane

Then you apparently haven't served in the military. Eating, sleeping, showering are usually not done at one's own convenience.

You are right Louie, I haven't. Do women shower together as well as men these days? Or have things changed in the 40 years since you served?

We wouldn't want any big strong men getting squeamish, particularly in the military. And of course all gays are crawling over straights and all men are rapists, right? They can't help themselves i guess.

boris

There wouldn't be any contempt dripping from your words would there Jane?

Cecil Turner

You are right Louie, I haven't. Do women shower together as well as men these days? Or have things changed in the 40 years since you served?

I've been out 9 years now, but I'd be shocked to find ground combat units have changed dramatically. There are no women in ground combat units, so that point's moot. In those field units where women serve (e.g., expeditionary airfields), they typically segregate shower hours by gender (women typically have one hour, men several), but those facilities are far more civilized than for the tactical ground units that have to move every few days. And yes, they're open showers (even in the more permanent facilities--more commonly it's ~20 spigots inside a large tent). Field toilet facilities are also privacy challenged.

Again, all this is probably manageable (though the biggest one is the sexual harassment part; and probably the hardest part of that is the fairness issue . . . I suspect enforced celibacy would be difficult but likely the best solution). But it ain't trivial.

And of course all gays are crawling over straights and all men are rapists, right?

I am aware of a recent case wherin a gay superior (senior NCO) sexually abused newly assigned personnel. It happens.

boris

I recall being told in the military that a soldier isn't punished for breaking the rules, the soldier is punished for getting caught breaking the rules. It avoids one type of excuse "why me when those other guys ..." You Got Caught and they didn't.

I suspect the military would rather not arbitrate what constitutes crossing the line wrt gay overtures. Instead of discharging for doing X they can avoid the problem by discharging for getting caught as an Xer.

Louie723

"We wouldn't want any big strong men getting squeamish, particularly in the military."

Your point of view seems to be that men should get a taste of what women have put up with over the years, perving I think you called it. The problem with that is that gay activity within the close quarters of the military doesn't just affect men, it also affects women who don't want to put up with that nonsense. As one who admittedly has never served, you sure have some strong opinions on the subject.

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