KennedyCare

Keith Hennessey, former senior economic advisor to George Bush, walks us through the first draft of the Kennedy-Dodd health care bill.

Our instant reaction - yike!  Is this really the economic environment in which we want to impose new taxes on both consumers and employers?

And let me emphasize - a mandate requiring people to either buy insurance or pay a penalty is definitely a tax.  Dems will say it is not, since the money flows to the insurance provider from the consumer, who is presumably getting value for money. 

However, the consumer is not making that purchase of insurance voluntarily, and has less money available to spend on other things.  It is a government-directed expenditure similar to the contributions to Social Securitywhich are also involuntary yet intended to benefit the payer, eventually.

Comments

[Thomas Jackson]

Somehow I doubt this bill will require emergency rooms not to treat people without insurance. And we all know one group that never seems to have driver's insurance.

I wonder why such a large proprotion of the population votes for the dhimmierats and then I realized almost half of the population is below average in intelligence.

[clarice]

I propose we begin funding out health insurance by seizing tax free Tahitian trust funds set up to allow the Kennedy family to live well without working.

[Jane]

Any national health care plan should require all elected officials to participate with the same rules with NO exceptions.

That should be the first rule. No exceptions - I mean it.

[Anonymous Gloater]

Reminds me of the monopolies Monarchs used to grant to those they favoured.
A word of warning,if it is made compulsory to pay for health insurance people WILL get ill to get their money's worth.

[Pagar]

"Any national health care plan should require all elected officials to participate" in VA system with no treatment for politicians allowed until every vet awaiting care has been treated.

[KJ]

Yes Gloater, because people just love to go to the doctor, shell out a co-pay, and wait an hour when they aren't actually sick.

This really is simple. Medicare controls costs better than private insurance and provides better results. You apply that to all and we are all better off. And have any of you even bothered to look at how much better countries like France, Germany, and Japan are at controlling costs and producing better outcomes.

And who cares if its a tax if I can take the $14000 myself and my employer pay for health insurance and get the same coverage for $11,000 and pocket the other 3k. Sometimes the government is just better at some things and this is one of those obvious cases.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2009/Feb/The-Path-to-a-High-Performance-US-Health-System.aspx Here's Commonwealth fund estimating a 20-30% savings using a public health insurance plan.

[Appalled]

AG:

It's the copays that will determine whether people abuse the sytem that way. Actually, a nice hefty emergency room copay would probably steer a lot of foloks back to their primary care physician.

TM:

I think the technicaly correct term for what's going on here (and in the cap & trade bill) is "unfunded manadate". I'm not necessarily against it, but I would prefer the government not provide any of the options. It will corrupt the marketplace they are attempting to establish.

[Fresh Air]

KJ--

That is total rubbish. Medicare only can "control" costs because there are private payers and non-Medicare patients who have private insurance. Hospitals and doctors cannot run their operations on the amounts Medicare gives them. What Medicare amounts to is nothing more than cost-shifting. If you have a universal payer, the only place to shift the costs will be to the taxpayers.

The government is not only not better at managing healthcare, it is demonstably, terrifyingly worse. There is no example one can cite, Sweden included, where the quality of healthcare exceeds what we currently receive in this country.

[Sue]

$14000 myself and my employer pay for health insurance and get the same coverage for $11,000 and pocket the other 3k.

::sigh:: And when this doesn't happen, who will you blame? Yourself for being so gullible? I seriously doubt it.

[StrawmanCometh]

Well KJ, it's not obvious to a lot of us. Please report back to Axelrooter with Ms. Postrel's notion that's been all over the blogosphere: Fix Medicare First. LUN

[Anonymous Gloater]

KJ
I have looked at Britain's National Health Service and the costs are horrendous.

"And who cares if its a tax if I can take the $14000 myself and my employer pay for health insurance and get the same coverage for $11,000 and pocket the other 3k. "

Are you a socialist by any chance?

[Fresh Air]

AG--

Nope, commie.

[RichatUF]

KJ-

Cause doctor shopping and malingering are unheard of problems. Can't quite figure out if that comment is snark. I'm surprised that the Commonwealth Fund didn't offer a free lunch and a unicorn ride too.

[Jane]

Medicare controls costs better than private insurance and provides better results

KJ

Tell you what. When Medicare makes a profit we can convert private health care to public health care. ANd when elected officials submit to having medicare as their healthcare, then we can think about it.

[Fresh Air]

Jane--

I hate to say it, but I think if Teddy wants to try his cockamamie ideas at the federal level, then Massachusetts should go first.

[Danube of Thought]

"Medicare controls costs" is the most hysterically stupid assertion to be posted on this site in calendar 2009. That person lives in a dangerous dreamland.

[Mickey]

If socialistic national healthcare is so much better, than why did actor Liam Neeson have his wife airlifted from a Canadian hospital a few months ago to one in the United States? If it was better in the Canadian system, he would of stayed right there to ensure the optimal outcome. It is pure lunacy to think that the government will do it better, they do NOTHING better - ever.

[Fresh Air]

Mickey--

Well, there are tops when it comes to pouring money down a rathole.

[jimmyk]

Medicare controls costs better than private insurance and provides better results.

Ok, I shouldn't feed the troll, but this is constantly asserted, and as far as I know the only evidence is some ratio of overhead expenses to total expenditures, which is supposedly lower for Medicare than for private insurance. The problem is that this doesn't prove anything. First, as any schoolkid knows, one way to get a ratio down is to increase the denominator. Second, just like the survival of the Canadian is helped by the presence of the U.S. healthcare industry on its border, medicare is effectively cross-subsidized by the private system--from (a) the fact that medicare recipients can purchase private coverage; (b) many doctors tolerate the low reimbursements or losses on medicare by the revenues generated by non-medicare patients; and (c) the medical breakthroughs resulting from the profit motive built in to our system.

[Danube of Thought]

On reflection, I'll have to correct my previous post. This one is even dumber: "Sometimes the government is just better at some things and this is one of those obvious cases."

One would think that an assertion of that kind would just be bristling with examples, but none is offered. We might, however, want to compare, say, the US Postal Service with FedEx or UPS, just for starters.

The only example I can think of where the government is an unqualified success is national defense, where the government is and must be the only player, so we have no private activity with which to compare it.

Americans get the finest health care in the history of the human race. The fact that not everyone takes the steps necessary to avail himself of that care is not a reason to diminish it for the rest of us.

[Jane]

I hate to say it, but I think if Teddy wants to try his cockamamie ideas at the federal level, then Massachusetts should go first.

We went first, 3 years ago. WEll Romney had a plan and Deval patrick implemented it, rewarding all his buddies with lots of mandatory podiatry care and the like. My premiums have tripled in 3 years.

Ted still does not treat at Cape Cod hospital.

[Pofarmer]

"KJ
I have looked at Britain's National Health Service and the costs are horrendous."

And the care ain't all that either.

Ya know, it seems that pretty much anyone below a certain age who wants to is free to participate in the VA system!!!d;0)

[Danube of Thought]

Suck on this:

"Economists Jagadeesh Gokhale and Kent Smetters estimate that the long-term imbalance between Medicare costs and revenues under existing law is something like $36 trillion, more than five times the current national debt." [Of course, that was before the Obama contributions to the national debt.]

[Pagar]

Sometimes the government is just better at some things and this is one of those obvious cases.

We already have proof of the government involvement in health care. It is called the Veterans Administration. While it helps a lot of vets, there are many that do not receive all the help they need in a timely manner.

The fight to get necessary care is never ending for many vets. The wait to get many claims resolved goes on for years and grows worse as time passes. Government medical care is not the cure all that many think it is.

[Danube of Thought]

And in the meantime, pause to consider this:

"Most Americans do not approve of Obama’s efforts to control federal spending, and many don’t like how he has handled the federal budget deficit, according to a new USA Today/Gallup poll.

"Overall, 67 percent of Americans view Obama favorably, but Americans are more positive in their opinions of him as a person than they are when asked to rate his overall job performance or how he has handled specific issues, according to the poll.

"The survey found that while 61 percent approved of his overall job performance and 55 percent approved of how he’s handling the economy, 51 percent disapproved of his measures to control federal spending and 48 percent disapproved of his handling of the budget deficit."

And on federal spending and the deficit, as Obama himself says, we ain't seen nothing yet.

[Sue]

Totally off topic, but on Friday I was watching Pelosi with my sound muted. I swear, if you tied her hands up, she wouldn't be able to talk. It was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen.

[Mark O]

But, he's just so enchanting and that wife of his!

[Mark O]

Isn't this the reason the English kept the Royal Family? Couldn't Obama be, say, THE ONE, and we could have someone else run the government. Bill and Hillary would have been wonderful in that role. Hilarity would have ensued. All the puff pieces would be read and still be harmless. Call it Separation of Fame and State. Let's go.

[Fresh Air]

DoT--

And that is a loaded poll, no doubt, as we know from Rasmussen that the favorables are now sub-60, probably even near 51. This idiot is going to be hit so hard during the midterms I think he may have a breakdown.

[Pagar]

Pofarmer, I think I understand your statement.

Ya know, it seems that pretty much anyone below a certain age who wants to is free to participate in the VA system!!!d;0)

But, IMO, what the recruiter tells one about medical care under the VA needs to be in writing. I'm sure I'm not the only military retiree, from the Korea War era, who was promised free health Care for life for themselves and dependents. Do I qualify for VA care today? No, I have no combat related medical problems and income exceeds their requirements. Under those criteria, it brings me happiness not to qualify. But for those who would meet the requirements, the red tape to get the care can be overwhelming, especially if the combat related illnesses do not show up until many years later.

[K]

The "no exceptions" is a good concept. But if it were passed the system would still be gamed. The political class simply isn't going to play by the same rules.

So what you would get with "no exceptions" is another government system operating on several levels depending upon who you are or who you know.

However this plan provides for Gold, Silver, Bronze levels. Their is no pretense that it will be an equal health care system. The only certainty is that it will employee a lot of bureaucrats who will always vote for Democrats.

And they are not going to get everyone insured. Unless you just make it all free and anonymous. In that case why even bother with a plan? Just tell the medical providers they work for Uncle Sam now and must treat anyone who shows up.

Why won't everyone be insured? Well, one reason is that we don't even know, within several millions, how many illegals are in the country. They are off the books and determined to stay that way.

So are some self-employed Americans who have dropped out of the system, have no business license, etc.

And a lot of the work they do is for cash and/or small employers who aren't deducting taxes or SS or unemployment insurance now.

You will drive some small employers underground. They won't then pay any taxes or keep any records at all. Others will just quit.

This is typical government planning to be forced upon others. Notice they exempt existing plans. So no one working for the government need be inconvenienced.

[Anonymous Gloater]

Once the Obamanoids has health care under government control it will end up run by the public sector unions.There wouldn't be a cat in hell's chance of restraining costs or making reforms. You may as well hang your money in the toilet.

[daddy]

Good Morning,

OT

Just woke up and punched up Drudge and there is Sarah Palin as the headliner "Told Ya So." Tonight on FOX she'll tell us how Obamanomics is destroying the Nation.

Now to fire up the coffee cup and see if you guys, as normal, are hours ahead of me on already discussing this.

[matt]

K;

Three stories. Some years ago, my uncle had a stroke in his hotel in London. he lay helpless in a hospital ward, undiagnosed, for 3 days before the medical authorities actually found his home phone number in his wallet. They contacted my cousin, an ER nurse. She flew over and diagnosed him in a few minutes, and had him flown home for treatment. In stroke cases, every minute counts.

Several years ago a friend in Canada was scheduled for routine surgery. They performed the wrong surgery. After 6 months in agony, he passed away.

Two years ago, my former sister in law in the UK was diagnosed with cancer. She was put on a waiting list for treatment. She died 3 weeks ago.

The reality of state health care is that it is mediocre worldwide. I have seen this in Japan and Germany as well. Anyone who has the option opts for private care.

For routine wellness programs socialized medicine works.But I would rather pay 100% of my employees premiums and have them in HMO's or PPO's, thank you.

[Neo]

This is the only thing I found good in the “leaked” version of the Kennedy bill ..

The bill defines an “eligible individual” as “a citizen or national of the United States or an alien lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence or an alien lawfully present in the United States.”

It does leave a door the size of Texas for political games with the definition of “lawfully present”.

[Anonymous Gloater]

The sad fact of life is,government controlled health care is politicised and rationed health care.

[sylvia]

I read it and I think it sounds good. This is not going to be government controlled healthcare. It is going to be government controlled health INSURANCE. And seeing all the shenanigans the insurance industry is up to, I think that is a good thing.

I like the no precondition clause. I also think it is a good idea that either a small business provides health insurance or they pay a tax. I don't think it is fair that some businesses do the right thing and give a free ride to other buniesses who don't.

Of course the devil is in the details. The tax and the mandates have to reasonable.

[Jack is Back!]

You can get private health care in Great Britain but you have to pay for it. You can't just use a private physician and charge it back to your NHS. As an ex-pat in London for 6 years, I had a private physician who had a number of British patients who could afford to have private care since it gave them greater access and more immediate attention. IIRC about 10% of health care insurance is now private there.

[sylvia]

And by the way the private insurers are too strong here to allow total government control. I think the trick is to have two competing systems and let the people choose what they like better. If a company or an individual has the funds and wants to go private, let them. If they don't have the funds for that, let there be a backup government option for them.

[sylvia]

I think we need to stop referring to the healthcare in Britain or even in Canada. People here talk about them the most because of the English language, but I think we can all agree those two countries are not the best examples to look at, and their problems are well known. Better to look at France, Holland, Germany and see what they are doing well.

[Fresh Air]

Sylvia--

You are apparently very naive. Do you understand how powerful Blue Cross is already? Take that times 100 and you have the Uncle Sam Kennedy Healthcare Company. They will dictate reimbursement rates to every health care provider. Do you think that will be a good thing? If so, why?

[Anonymous Gloater]

" This is not going to be government controlled healthcare. It is going to be government controlled health INSURANCE."

Give it time baby,give it time.

" I also think it is a good idea that either a small business provides health insurance or they pay a tax. I don't think it is fair that some businesses do the right thing and give a free ride to other buniesses who don't."

All in all, a nice bit of socialist redistribution.

[sylvia]

"Do you understand how powerful Blue Cross is already?"

Exactly. Blue Cross is too powerful now. The government will be a welcome counterweight. I think Blue Cross will give the government a run for its money. Clash of the Titans there.

I don't see in the plan how the government will dictate all reimbursement rates, any more than Blue Cross does already.

[narciso]

Daddy, I got my first mention on American Thinker, they boiled a three page post to a passage, but they excerpted the main point;
the possible CIA tie to the Myers. My next one shows how Cuba, is more directly tied to the Middle East, than anyone suspected

[matt]

Germany's care sucks, and France had hundreds of elderly patients dying during the heat wave 2 years ago. In both countries there is the option for private health care.

They do not have the ready availability of technology and the most up to date treatments in many cases. In certain areas they do a good job, but in terms of overall care, i would much rather go to my local hospital that a teaching hospital, where they have the technology and experts, in those countries. God forbid you have an illness that is rare.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

almost half of the population is below average in intelligence.

Almost?

[DrJ]

The reality of state health care is that it is mediocre worldwide... Anyone who has the option opts for private care.

Many years ago (10?) I interviewed for a Vice President position with a firm based in Canada, where I would have lived had the job worked out. I was surprised when they mentioned that private health insurance was one of the benefits they offered their employees (and not just the senior-level people).

The company President was surprised at my surprise. There was a knowing "stupid American" smile that crossed his face.

It was quite eye-opening, and something that is not reported at all in the US press. Those who can afford private insurance in Canada get private insurance. The government-run program is left for the proletariat.

[sylvia]

"Germany's care sucks, and France had hundreds of elderly patients dying during the heat wave 2 years ago."

Well I have lots of relatives in Germany and no one tells me their health care sucks. And with France, they had a problem with not having air conditioning and uncaring children, that doesn't seem to show a problem with their health care.

All I'm saying is hopefully we can keep the best of both worlds and come up with a compromise.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Hey, Ginsberg stayed the Chrysler sale!

[Fresh Air]

Sylvia--

The government will be a welcome counterweight.

A "counterweight" in what sense? Understand that insurance companies are nothing more than actuarial pools of capital dispensed to policyholders in an orderly fashion upon the presentation of claims.

If Blue Cross isn't the most efficient or loving payor, that doesn't render it in need of a "counterweight" with 100 times more market power. How would it counter the feds, do you suppose? By paying even less and making life even more difficult on patients? See the discussion of the V.A. above, for an example of why you get less when you create a monopoly, which, given its market power, is exactly what Uncle Sam Kennedy would be.

All you are doing with this is creating a massive new bureaucracy-entitlement system with built-in inefficiencies and an endless call on taxpayer dollars to "stabilize" its supposed actuarial pools, which in reality will be nothing more than entries in a ledger, just like Social Security.

[Danube of Thought]

Exactly half are below the median. The portion below the average is undoubtedly very close to half, but it might be a bit more or a bit less.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Matt, I'm not a big fan of any national health care plan, but when I lived in Germany the medical care was quite good. Have you got any source for your assertion it "sucks"?

[Jane]

Supreme Ct has delayed the sale of Chrysler!

YIPPEE

[verner]

Medicare is a total nightmare as it is--filled with waste and fraud. And most older people I know have supplemental
insurance. Not to mention, they don't pay providers squat.

We want that for the entire country?

Hell no. Before you know it, we'll all be forced to buy insurance to make-up for what gov't-care doesn't cover, and we'll be in much worse shape than we are today.

This is nothing but a money and power grab by the government. It will not save money, it will waste it, just like the government always does.

They just want premiums from younger people to pay for the aging boomers--because the money will not be there when they all get into their seventies.

What they really need to do is get rid of Medicare, and figure something else out. Private insurance companies could run it much better than the gov't. From the beginning, medicare has distorted the market, and made thing more costly for the system as a whole.

[Rob Crawford]

Sylvia, if the medical systems are so great in France and Germany, why are you living here?

[Appalled]

sylvia:

I don't see your "best of both worlds" happening. The government as a competative "insurer" has a powerful incentive to game the system so that it is not the insurer getting all the bad risks. This makes it a bad candidate for also serving as regulator for the industry.

The same arguments apply to the government's, um, stewardship, of the auto industry.

[Rob Crawford]

I really wish people would stop arguing efficiency and costs when it comes to government involvement in health care. Those are red herrings, since the statists will cook up whatever numbers they want (cf "global warming").

The real argument against it is liberty. I don't want to force anyone else to pay for my medical care. I don't want government making my health decisions for me. I don't want government bureaucrats having unlimited access to my medical records.

[Ignatz]

--And have any of you even bothered to look at how much better countries like France, Germany, and Japan are at controlling costs and producing better outcomes.--

If you define better outcomes as patients dying at a higher rate of common illnesses, then indeed they are light years beyond us.

And of course a government rationed health care system is in fact very likely to define inconvenient and expensive patients dying early as a very good outcome indeed.
What better way to control costs than deny care and call the morgue?

[Anonymous Gloater]

"Exactly. Blue Cross is too powerful now. The government will be a welcome counterweight. I think Blue Cross will give the government a run for its money. Clash of the Titans there."

With one Titan having law making powers.

[Sue]

Wow. Ginsberg actually signed an order halting the sale of Chrysler. Clarice was right, once again.

[centralcal]

Sue: re: Clarice's prediction about Ginsberg - and her "being right, once again" - ain't it the truth!!!!

[Jack is Back!]

Narcisco,

Cuba tied to the middle east like they were tied to Vietnam? They ran a torture program on our POWs there. Read all about it in Honor Bound.

[Fresh Air]

Rob--

You are right. Conservatives should emphasize liberty in every argument against socialism in addition to the sheer cost of it.

Verner--

Mandatory insurance for people who don't need or want it (those in their twenties and thirties) is one of the few ways to prevent a medical catastrophe in the next decade. But it won't work, as it's too little, too late.

[clarice]

yeah!!!!
BTW --for those of you engaging in a debate with Sylvia..ROFL..Masochists!!

Yeah, the halt of the Chryster sale is just what he need to start puncturing this balloon and this balloon head.

[Extraneus]

Oh, for cryin' out loud...

Sarah Palin To Attend GOP Fundraiser

[centralcal]

Clarice: You go girl!

[verner]

Oh Fresh, it will work, just as long as you consider waiting 5 months for bypass surgery, and 3 months for chemotherapy is working--as long as you're not 80, after which age,you get nothing but hospice.

And anybody who doesn't think that's the future with this bunch is kidding themselves.

[Ignatz]

BTW, does anyone note the irony in naming any health care bill after Ted Kennedy while he is suffering from a brain tumor? A terminal tumor in an elderly man for which he would almost certainly be put on a waiting list for treatment under an eventual single payer plan, except that he's from a family that could pay for any treatment available.
How about calling it the Ted Kennedy Chemo and Surgery for Me but not for Thee Plan.

In other news I see the Pentagon says inproper procedures and tactics were used in an Afgjhan bombing by the AF last month in which civilians were killed. I thought Barry said he was going to put a stop to the mindless carpet bombing of Afghan villages by our heartless military.

[fdcol63]

It's a toss up .... did Teddy get the tumor from his alcohol abuse or from the polluted waters of Chappaquiddick?

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

First, congratulations to JOM for discovering Keith Hennessey.com. It's indispensable for understanding the unvarnished truth about what passes for economic policy these days.

Second, Gary Becker has a good post on the Becker-Posner blog about this:

The American system ties medical insurance to employment by allowing company spending on medical premiums to be fully tax-deductible. Companies introduced health benefits during World War II in order to get around wage controls to be competitive in attracting employees. It was maintained as income tax rates increased during subsequent decades. This employer-based system is partly responsible for the high number of Americans who have no insurance coverage, since many small companies do not provide insurance to their employees. In addition, the system favors persons with high earnings since tax deductions for insurance premiums are worth more to them. A much better approach, so far opposed by President Obama, would provide a certain number of dollars each year to every person-perhaps $2500- as tax credits to be used only to buy health insurance and pay for medical care. Unused amounts in any year would be folded into health savings accounts (see my discussion of these accounts and other health care issues in posts for April 15, 2007 and January 13, 2008), and unused balances in any year would be carried over to spend in later years. This approach gives the same tax incentives to everyone, and it would encourage individuals to economize on their health care spending since unused balances would be available to spend in the future. It would also induce many persons without health insurance to get some since otherwise they lose access to this tax credit.

Health insurance is expensive in the US partly because most states mandate coverage of various health expenditures that have little to do with insurable risks. For example, the majority of states require insurance companies to cover the medical costs of all birth deliveries, even though these deliveries are mainly planned, and the expenses are known beforehand. The proper insurance approach would cover only unusual birth expenses caused by complications in the delivery and post delivery stages. By getting rid of unnecessary mandates, health insurance would become much cheaper, especially in states with the more onerous mandates.

[verner]

Who wants to wait 26 weeks for bypass surgery!?!

Um, not me...LUN

The Government of Saskatchewan is establishing a wait times guarantee for coronary artery bypass graft surgery across Saskatchewan’s regional health authorities within the publicly funded health care system. Current pan-Canadian benchmarks for this procedure will be used, ranging from two weeks to 26 weeks, depending on the identified level of urgency for each patient. Emergency procedures will continue to be handled on a priority basis.

[Ann]

Wow, Clarice was right about Ruth! Yippee!!!

and look at this news:

Republicans Seize Control of State Senate in NY

[centralcal]

I am looking forward to two great women on TV tonight - Sarah Palin and Laura Bush.

What wonderful palate cleansers and eye refreshers after 5 months of Ma Belle Michelle, the snarling bulldog.

[Extraneus]

Right on, Rob Crawford. It's not a cost and effiency issue, it's a freedom issue.

And if it really were a cost and efficiency issue... Well who would be able to manage a straight face long enough to contend that the federal government could improve such things? Aside from professional propagandists, I mean.

Just a big power grab. (Fans of GovHmo will want to think really hard to guess whose power.) They've been salivating over this for decades.

[Ignatz]

--Matt, I'm not a big fan of any national health care plan, but when I lived in Germany the medical care was quite good.--

Well, if any country could make socialist health care efficient it would be the one that married Henry Ford's assembly line with Herod's slaughter of the innocents.

[K]

" I also think it is a good idea that either a small business provides health insurance or they pay a tax. I don't think it is fair that some businesses do the right thing and give a free ride to other buniesses who don't."

I'm not the first to comment about the quote. Examine it.

The writer plays the "fair" word. Because some businesses offer a benefit others must be forced to do the same or be taxed. Otherwise it is not fair.

I lack the concept that all businesses must do what someone, somewhere, thinks is fair.

The "fair" word is Elixir Of BS. Usually meaning that you should to be forced to do what I want.

I am not surprised that Sylvia hedged with the escape clause:

"the Devil is in the details".

Translation "Well, I certainly would run it right, and people who agree with me would too. Others might screw it up."

[Neo]

Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg put a temporary hold Monday on the deal to sell Chrysler to save it from collapse. Her order, however, simply gives her or the full Court more time to ponder whether to postpone the sale further, or allow it to go forward.

[Neo]

A third application to delay the Chrysler sale has been filed at the Supreme Court, on behalf of a woman who is suing Chrysler for damages, claiming that her husband died from lung cancer due to exposure to asbestos while working on auto brakes. Her lawsuit in state court in California will be scuttled if the sale occurs, she argued.

[narciso]

Here's a sample from the source material, an analysis by a Tampa lawyer of terrorism and drug trafficking; Jack, what exactly did you do in Indonesia, anyways:

In 1968 Cuba coordinated the Iraqi preparation of Palestinian guerrillas. One of the groups trained by Cubans was later named Black September. In March of 1973 Cuba sent armored divisions to South Yemen and on to the border of Somalia. Later in the year at the fourth conference of non-aligned nations held in Algeria, Fidel Castro established Cuba’s solidarity with Arafat and the PLO, broke off diplomatic relations with Israel, and presented a resolution that supported PLO activities, including terrorism. In early 1974 the PLO leadership, including Yasser Arafat, arrived in Havana to discuss the supplies of weapons, the training of personnel, and the placement of a permanent office of the PLO in Havana. The office remains today. Then, near the end of that year Cuba formalized support for both, Libya’s Moammar Qadhafi and the PLO leadership

In 1972 Havana and Bagdad signed a bilateral agreement. The Cubans offered the Iraqis training in counter insurgency to be used against the Kurds. In 1974 Cuba began the training of Iraqi special operation commandos as well as the provision of military engineers to build roads to war fronts. During the Yom Kippur war Cubans fought alongside the Syrians. According to former Israeli General Moshe Dayan, he estimated 3,000 Cubans were actually in service. The Cubans maintained two brigades in the Golan Heights. On February 4, 1974, Cuban tank commanders engaged Israeli positions. In September of 1974 Raul Castro visited Cuban units in Syria, where he and President Assad decorated officers from their respective military units.

In May of 1978, Abu Salah Kahalaf, the military director of Al Fattah, confirmed that Palestinian warriors had received combat training from Cuba since the early 1970's. He acknowledged that five hundred Palestinian commandos had been trained in Havana in the art of terrorism. In September of 1978, Fidel Castro visited Moammar Qadhafi. At the time two thousand five hundred Cuban troops were stationed in Libya. An additional forty five hundred troops from Havana arrived in Libya in November of 1978. The Cuban mission was to protect the Libyans and train them in espionage, commando operations and insurgency control within Libya. Qadhafi’s personal escort and security services were to be trained by Havana. Hassan Ashkal and Salam Jalloud, the latter being the head of the secret service in Libya, and a frequent traveler to Cuba, were to coordinate Cuban terrorist training.

This was happening in the era, that Myers was turning toward this alternative of considering to spy against his own countries
allies

[verner]

If we want to re-do healthcare, let's do it like SINGAPORE! LUN

[sylvia]

"BTW --for those of you engaging in a debate with Sylvia..ROFL..Masochists!!"

Clarice, didn't you tell me a long time ago that you would lift your fatwa on me? And that basically you would not direct or command or intimidate people not to engage with me? You're not going back on your honorable word now are you? I would hardly believe that of you Clarice, as I would think based on your behavior here that you are a very fair kind honorable person. I am shocked! Shocked I tell you!

By the way, please let me know when you start your own blog, so that I will be sure not to accidentally post on it, since it will be your own blog, written by you, you would of course have the power to command me or others on it, and you wouldn't just act like some impolite people do, who are hanger-on parasites, trying to stand on someone else's hard work and acting like they are the main course, when they are really a just side dish.

[dk70]

Surprised Drudge hasn't headlined the SCOTUS stay.

Too bad there's nothing like discovery when the SCOTUS hears a case. I'd love to see all the e-mails Rattner's been writing about the holdouts.

[Jane]

OT: a couple of things:

1. The rumor is that Ted Kennedy is close to death. Watch the push to pass healthcare "in his memory" probably before the corpse is cold.

2. I just got off the phone with my Cognos/ source. The rumor is that Deval Patrick knew all about the deal (the software was for the executive branch) and closed his eyes until Di Massi beat Patrick's proposal for MA Casino's. Then Patrick dropped the dime on Di Massi and told the Globe - which is not known for its investigative reporting these days.

[dk70]

Jane, Ted Kennedy is not close to death.

Harry Reid told the country that TK's cancer is in remission.

[centralcal]

dk70: snort!

[Danube of Thought]

Clarice--bless you! Now: is it even possible that the Court could have this briefed , argued and deteined in a week? And if not, doesn't Fiat walk away?

[Neo]

Did Arlen Specter misjudge the direction of things ...

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) - Republicans appear to have retaken control of New York's Senate after two dissident Democrats jumped the aisle
in a parliamentary coup.

[PaulL]

"Economists Jagadeesh Gokhale and Kent Smetters estimate that the long-term imbalance between Medicare costs and revenues under existing law is something like $36 trillion, more than five times the current national debt." [Of course, that was before the Obama contributions to the national debt.]

Well, then, we do have to give Obama credit for this. By raising the national debt, we no longer have that awful 5:1 ratio.

[jean]

FedEx is starting to fight back against card check.They are opening a site Bailoutbrown .com this evening.Tennessee does have some great Freds

[Extraneus]

Yeah, Neo. NY? The way things are going, it's almost tempting to hope they execute the health-care power grab, preferably using one of those reconciliation techniques that bypasses debate. There wouldn't be enough stimulus bribes to save them from the pitchforks in 2010.

I guess it's taped and we already know that Sarah's comments to Hannity contained enough grammatical errors to bring Tina Fey off the bench, but man would I love to hear her say the words "He played on our fears."

[Frau Jedöns]

My German sister-in-law is alive today *only* because she has private insurance and because her American sister-in-law insisted she be checked for helicobacter pylori after six years of unsuccessful treatment of stomach ailments, one uncesuccessful treatment being removal of her gall bladder by the local specialist. Once it was established that the prolonged h-pylori had resulted in gastric lymphoma, she was able to access specialists quickly. Had she not been a private patient, her chances for treatment and recovery would have been non-existent. No matter how many horror stories can be told about American medical care, it is paradise compared to German socialized medicine. I have five German brothers/sisters-in-law and stories from all of them to support my humble opinion. That doesn't even include my personal experiences.
Please keep the Democrats away from American health care.

[Sue]

The flip of senators Pedro Espada Jr. of the Bronx and Hiram Monserrate

Are those Hispanics? If we gained 2 Hispanics as Republicans in NY, something is working.

[Fresh Air]

The thing about this is that, in the short term at least, it is bound to be widely unpopular. People HATE change, especially change that creates bureaucratic headaches and general pains in the ass. For at least a year after Bush passed the Medicare prescription drug coverage it was widely unpopular. Now, people seem to like it. But that was a much, much simpler program to implement relative to this one. I would even wager this piece of stupidity could do for the Mediacrats in 2010 what HillaryCare did for them in 1994.

[clarice]

DoT:"Now: is it even possible that the Court could have this briefed , argued and dete[rm]ined in a week? And if not, doesn't Fiat walk away?"

Of course that's not possible and, yes, Fiat, might walk ..they might be putting on their scarpe right now.

[sylvia]

Well my American sister-in-law has MS and does not work. My brother had a heart infection ailment recently which was very serious. He is not that old. Fortunately he recovered but the chance of him dying early is increased. My brother has a good paying job and has worked years at a larger financial company. If he dies or is unable to work because of his heart ailment, she will not be able to carry on her insurance covered under him. She will not be able to or will find it very difficult to get other health insurance because of her pre-condition.

If my bother cannot work later because of his disabilty, I'm not sure exactly how well his insurance will be covered after that either. Like I said, he has a decent job, but like a lot of Americans, his savings are not that great. I don't think he will be able to pay the larger premiums if he loses his job. He might have to get Medicare but I hear there is a long waiting list for that, years.

So is that the kind of country you want to live in? Not me. This could happen to any of you with jobs or any of your children woth jobs. I say face facts and grow up. If not, look forward to having the Dems win more elections.

[verner]

I wish they would leave FedEx alone. They are a great company, and employ thousands in my hometown. If Fred leaves, they might as well just roll Memphis up and throw it into the river.

Besides, we already have a unionized mail/parcel service--it's called the United States Postal Service. One of the reasons Fred went into the overnight business in the first place.

I love my local post office, they have great folks here, as they do in most small towns. But in many big cities--different story.

[centralcal]

Sue: They are both in hot water, too.

"Why Mr. Espada and Mr. Monserrate suddenly defected on Monday afternoon was not immediately clear. Both men are under investigation by the authorities. The state attorney general’s office is investigating a health care agency, Soundview HealthCare Network, that Mr. Espada ran until recently. And Mr. Monserrate, who was indicted on felony assault charges in March stemming from an attack on his companion, would automatically be thrown out of office if convicted."

Typical Dems - lol! But hey, their votes still count - made it 32-30, in fact.

[Fresh Air]

I say face facts and grow up.

Sound to me like you're the one who need to grow up. You put money in the bank, it's called "savings." If your brother's savings are inadequate whose fault is that? Why is your brother's inability to save money to take care of his own body my responsibility?

Your appeals to emotion are hollow, a logical fallacy and a complete waste of time. I believe in the concept of insurance. It works because it allows us all to share in the random risk of medical calamities through the virtues of actuarial science. What I don't believe in is socialism, which is obviously right up your alley. But please, if you really think opposing this piece of crap bill is going to put Republicans on the defensive, then you are far too deluded to posting here.

[verner]

Sylvia, you don't need socialized medicine, you need a social worker.

Did your brother-in-law purchase disability insurance? Do you know what social security disability is? If anything happened to him, I can not fathom a reason his wife would not be eligible for it. And when you're on it, you get medicaid.

I don't know who told you the waiting list for medicare (or medicaid) is "long." As far as I can tell, it is not rationed, but the paperwork may be burdensome. That might take a little time. But I don't know of any social workker at any hospital, or you local Department of Human Services who couldn't help with it. They do it every day.

I'm sorry that they're down on their luck, but there are simply things that responsible people make sure of doing in case bad things happen.

It is not the responsibility of the state (as in US) to insure that your family member maintains his or her life-style standard if they are improperly prepared when illness hits. There are plenty of government programs available--though they may require your brother and sister-in-law to spend their own money before they kick in.

Here's a proposition, why don't you, and other members of your family chip in and give them a little money every month. That way, you could be taking care of your own, instead of making all of the rest of us sacrifice our right to private health care for those who are not as responsible as we are.

I'd do it in a heartbeat for any member of my family.

[jimmyk]

Republicans appear to have retaken control of New York's Senate

This sounds good, but those of you not from New York might not realize that there ain't a dime's worth of difference between the Republicans and Democrats in the state senate, as far as I'm aware. They're all a bunch of thieving power brokers that make the U.S. Congress look like the founding fathers.