Birthers And Truthers

The Politico points out that the August recess may make for some great home theater as Republican Congressman confront their conspiracists:

GOP headache: The birther issue

When lawmakers return home for recess in August, they can expect to hear tough questions from constituents on the economy, health care and government spending.

But Republicans are preparing for something else: the birthers.

As GOP Rep. Mike Castle learned the hard way back home in Delaware this month, there’s no easy way to deal with the small but vocal crowd of right-wing activists who refuse to believe that President Barack Obama was born in the United States.

At a town hall meeting in Georgetown, a woman demanded to know why Castle and his colleagues were “ignoring” questions about Obama’s birth certificate — questions that have been put to rest repeatedly by state officials in Hawaii, where the birth certificate and all other credible evidence show that Obama was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.

When Castle countered that Obama is, in fact, “a citizen of the United States,” the crowd erupted in boos, the woman seized control of the gathering and led a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. The video went viral; by Sunday, it had been viewed on YouTube more than half a million times.

Should be fun.  Eventually we get a fair and balanced tidbit:

Out-party politicians have long had to deal with conspiracy theorists on their side — the people who think that the Clintons killed Vince Foster or that the Bush administration helped orchestrate the Sept. 11 attacks.

“Twenty-five percent of my people believe the Pentagon and Rumsfeld were responsible for taking the twin towers down,” said Rep. Collin Peterson, a Democrat who represents a conservative Republican district in Minnesota. “That’s why I don’t do town meetings.”

But the birther phenomenon may present a bigger challenge — a potent blend of race and politics, fueled by conservative TV and radio pundits, and played out in a day when all that stands between a town hall meeting and Web omnipresence is a $100 flip cam.

To which I would add - although it is impossible to glean from coverage such as this at Politico, one of the basic demands of the birthers would be trivially easy to satisfy.  Rather than the short form summary of his birth certificate made available by the Obama campaign, let's see the long form, which would clear up whether Obama was born in a local hospital with an attending physician, or whether the birth certificate was issued on the basis of an affidavit from the mother and grandparents.

Here is the earlier Politco coverage:

The White House is, presently, ignoring the birth certificate questions, having released an official copy of the Hawaii certificate during the presidential campaign.

...Most of the lawsuits seek documents and express dissatisfaction with the State of Hawaii's refusal to release for public inspection Obama's original birth certificate rather than the notarized copy typically issued. The state's governor, Linda Lingle, has attested to the authenticity of the birth certificate, and Hawaii law forbids its release; Kreep blamed Democratic control of Hawaii for the refusal to release it. (Lingle is a Republican.)

Well - is the birth certificate an utterly authentic summary of a birth certificate issued on the basis of a parental affidavit?  Don't ask, don't tell!  Just for flavor, let's see what the state officials said:

STATEMENT BY DR. CHIYOME FUKINO

"There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai'i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

"Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai'i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

"No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai'i.”

Does that really resolve anything about a parental affidavit?  Actually, no.  Move on!

Unlike the 9/11 truthers, who would have needed a Presidential Commisison and heaven knows what else, the birther demand for the long form certificate would be easy to satisfy. 

Of course, if the answer came back that the original long form certificate was issued on the basis of an affidavit, well, new questions would be raised.  I am already clear on the parental motive, which would be for Ms. Dunham to document her baby as a US citizen in fear of one day fighting a black Kenyan man in a Kenyan court for custody of a black Kenyan baby.  Keeping a US baby in the US courts had to look like a stronger play in 1961.

Well, the same media that looked away from the John Edwards love child is looking away from this.  I have no idea what actually happened in 1961 - if I had to guess, I would say that a smiling Baby Barack was born in Hawaii.  But why do I have to guess when the proof might be at hand?  Why have his supporters embraced the place of Obama's birth as the latest faith-based initiative and abandoned any interest in facts or evidence? 

HOW VAST A CONSPIRACY?  Hwo big a conspiracy are we talking about with the birth certificate?  Under a simple scenario, the mother and grandparents file false affidavits in order to generate the birth certificate currently on file with the State of hawaii.  Years go by and nobody cares.  Finally, at some point during the Presidential campaign David Axelrod looks at the short form summary provided by the state, says to himself, "What I don't know can't hurt me", double checks that only people with a "direct and tangible interest" in the certificate can get one, and goes full speed ahead.

So who would know?  Well, Obama knows what his parents and grandparents told him; it is entirely possible that he has never examined the paperwork himself or had his staffers do so.  In which case, the tiny band of conspirators has passed away.

Comments

[Fresh Air]

This is such a dumb topic that I was afraid there wouldn't be any comments made on it. So I am providing one.

Whatever.

[BumperStickerist]

One reason is that it's hard to fathom such a colossal blunder over such an elemental issue is possible.

The other is that Obama supporters are the ones who are surprised that they need to produce money after waiting in line to get to the toll booth.

[TigerHawk]

The longer the controversy goes on, the sillier the birthers look and the less the evil forces of anti-Obama can motivate the media to look at anything that is actually real. If I were Obama I would not want the air cleared ever, or perhaps I would wait until some really prominent conservative has been stupid enough to climb out on a limb and then smack him down with an actual document. Either way, the continuation of the "controversy" helps Obama more than it hurts him. So says I.

[Rick]

I really don't think the Dems are that clever, Tige. Their pattern for the current monarch is to hide all manner of records.

But the media doesn't find that the slightest bit curious. No bias here!

Cordially...

[Porchlight]

Maybe you're right, TigerHawk. My view is that this is merely the MSM distraction/rightwing demonization du jour designed to avert our eyes from Obama's falling poll numbers. It won't work for long, and eventually other events and stories will force them to move on.

Meanwhile, there is always the risk that previously uninformed people will watch the coverage and go "Hmmmm, that is fishy." Which is why the MSM wouldn't touch the story before the election.

It's not great for the GOP, but I'm not getting too worked up over it.

[Neo]

This is a better story ...
"Turbo" Tim Geithner Can't Sell His House, Either

[Danube of Thought]

I'm with TigerHawk.

[mantis]

Tom, you exhibit the hallmark birther trait (and that of all conspiracy theorists), in that you ignore available facts if they hurt your argument. First of all, the BC that only those with a direct and tangible interest can obtain is the one which has already been provided (COLB, short-form, whatever you want to call it). That is all the state issues. They won't give you the long-form, the longer-form, the super-long form, or any other form than the Certification of Live Birth. That's it. They won't give it to Obama, so how can he release what he does not have and cannot obtain?

Further, the State of Hawaii may not even have the original anymore. They apparently told CNN (and the Star Bulletin) the originals were all discarded when the state went paperless in 2001. Once again, Obama cannot provide what he does not have, especially if it doesn't exist anymore.

Furthermore, you enjoy keeping your distance in this by saying that you are just offering the motive which Obama's mother had (and doubting the availability of means and opportunity), but you have never offered any evidence that Dunham (or the grandparents) were in any way concerned about what you propose, or had any reason to be. That's not motive, that's a possible motive, and it would take more than what you have offered to establish it. All you've really offered is the idea that the Dunhams could see several years into the future. Pretty thin.

So we have unestablished motive and a demand not based in reality (and one that you birthers will continue to make for ever and ever). JustOneMinute: We are all crazy birthers now.

[Danube of Thought]

I'm with Mantis, too.

[Neo]

Consider the repercussions if Obama really isn’t a “natural born US citizen” … an entire nation made a fool, the validity of laws and expenditures (like the “stimulus”) put into question … it would take years to clean up the mess.

The best the “Birthers” can hope for is that if Obama tries to run for re-election, some Secretary of State in one of the 57 US states asks for the the original birth certificate to show proof of eligibility as a “natural born US citizen” before allowing him on the ballot.

The truth is out there, but who in their right mind would want to know it. I’ll wait for the Oliver Stone movie.

[Pofarmer]

So mantis, you chide Tom, but offer false information as rebuttal.

"That is all the state issues. They won't give you the long-form"

That is simply incorrect.

What would Obama's motive be to avoid releasing the birth certificate now? Not the "Obama Campaign" releasing a document to the Daily Kos. Sorry, that doesn't pass any kind of test.

[Danube of Thought]

"...the validity of laws and expenditures (like the 'stimulus') put into question … it would take years to clean up the mess."

Not so. If you presented to the Supreme Court conclusive proof that Obama was not natural-born, they would not grant you any relief anyway. If they said anything at all, they would say that any defects in eligibility were waived (or mooted) when the electors met, or when the secretaries of the various states certified him as the winner in their states.

I have no idea who is right as between Mantis and Pofarmer as to whether the state will provide the long form. Any authorities?

[mantis]

"That is all the state issues. They won't give you the long-form"

That is simply incorrect.

That's incorrect? Well, you sure showed me. But let's go to the tape, shall we?

Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth."

...

"There's only one form of birth certificate," she said, and it's been the same since the 1980s. Birth certificates evolve over the decades, she said, and there are no doubt differences between the way birth certificates looked when Obama was born and now.

"When you request a birth certificate, the one you get looks exactly like the one posted on his site," she said. "That's the birth certificate."

As for the theory that Obama's original birth certificate might show he was foreign-born, Okubo said the "Certification of Live Birth" would say so. Obama's does not. Again, it says he was born in Honolulu.

Better go back to farming, buddy.

[Appalled]

Somewhere, Axelriod is chuckling as he awaits the Colbert Report commentary on Birthiness.

[verner]

My guess is that he was born in Hawaii, but there is something embarrassing on the form, like father unknown, religion muslim, or (and I'm not sure if they did this in the sixties) exposure to some contagions disease like Syphilis. If I'm not mistaken, many states gather data on certain illnesses and birth defects etc. on the long form birth cert.

In any case, I'm just sick of the lies and obfuscation.

[Danube of Thought]

My guess is that he has shown all there is to show.

[JBean]

Further, the State of Hawaii may not even have the original anymore. They apparently told CNN (and the Star Bulletin) the originals were all discarded when the state went paperless in 2001. Once again, Obama cannot provide what he does not have, especially if it doesn't exist anymore.

Ack, Mantis -- anyone who's done any genealogy research knows that even though paper records are "destroyed," they are first imaged -- either by microfilm (a technology that's been around for decades), or more recently, conversion of microfilm to digital images.

No state, county, or local government can legally "destroy" docs by wiping out any trace of their existence. Let's get real.

Furthermore, think about it: if the Certification of Live Birth that Hawaii (and many other states) provides is taken from the original document, how can they authenticate the the COLB, if they've "destroyed" the original?

[Jack is Back!]

I think he is an alien. An ET, sent by the planet Pandora to infect us all with hope so we can die in shit (as Chuck Knox famously told his Rams on the eve of a playoff).

[centralcal]

I don't have a real position or theory on the birth certificate validity.

But, I think one thing stated in the comments should be cleared up. Our office went "paperless" about 18 months ago. All important, original documents were scanned to digital files. So, even though the original paper was eventually shredded and returned to dust or ash, there remains a digital image file of it.

If, back in the day, some other form of bc was used, I am pretty sure there is still a digital image of it kept on file by Hawaii.

[mantis]

Ack, Mantis -- anyone who's done any genealogy research knows that even though paper records are "destroyed," they are first imaged -- either by microfilm (a technology that's been around for decades), or more recently, conversion of microfilm to digital images.

And the State of Hawaii digitized the records (they don't state exactly how this was done, but I would assume OCR since it happened in 2001). I never claimed otherwise.

No state, county, or local government can legally "destroy" docs by wiping out any trace of their existence. Let's get real.

I realize that, but the fact is no one can photocopy the original, as demanded by the birthers.

Furthermore, think about it: if the Certification of Live Birth that Hawaii (and many other states) provides is taken from the original document, how can they authenticate the the COLB, if they've "destroyed" the original?

Because they digitized the information on the original, as they did with all of the birth records since 1908. The digital record is all they have now.

By the way, repeatedly putting "destroyed" in quotes is amusing since no one said anything about documents being destroyed, only discarded.

[Bill Woods]

Snopes has some details, including the name of the doctor and hospital:

... Barbara Nelson of Kenmore will undoubtedly think back to the day [Obama] was born. It was Aug. 4, 1961, at Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu.

"I may be the only person left who specifically remembers his birth. His parents are gone, his grandmother is gone, the obstetrician who delivered him is gone," said Nelson, referring to Dr. Rodney T. West, who died in February at the age of 98. Here's the story: Nelson was having dinner at the Outrigger Canoe Club on Waikiki Beach with Dr. West, the father of her college friend, Jo-Anne. Making conversation, Nelson turned to Dr. West and said: "So, tell me something interesting that happened this week," she recalls.

His response: "Well, today, Stanley had a baby. Now that's something to write home about."
www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

[Linda]

prior to June 10, 2009:

“In order to process your application [to prove native Hawaiian ancestry], DHHL [Department of Hawaiian Homelands] utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.

then came this:

“The Department of Hawaiian Home Lands accepts both Certificates of Live Birth [original birth certificates and the recently renamed abbreviated computer printouts] and Certifications of Live Birth [as the abbreviated computer printouts were up till recently called] because they are official government records documenting an individual’s birth… Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth.”

so:

Sometime between June 10, 2009 and June 18, 2009 the State of Hawaii changed its rule on what documents and data were necessary to prove Hawaiian ancestry, thereby upgrading the apparent status of the abbreviated Certification of Live Birth which it had formerly regarded as insufficiently probative. Why?

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/barack-obama%e2%80%99s-eligibility-an-intelligence-investigator%e2%80%99s-june-10-2009-report/

[Linda]

Hawaii did not start digitizing records until 2006, so the claims the records were discarded in 2001 is just another big a** lie

[narciso]

It's kind of a pointless exercise, prompted by that flawed COLB posted on Kos, and the million dollars to firms like Perkins Coie,
and the eligibilty attack on McCain, and the lies told about the Governor, and a thousand other things. I think Rush isn't really endorsing the birthers but he is playing off the messianic imagery that Obama
has himself cultivated

[Marko]

Obama was able to get a couple of his political opponents sealed divorce records made public (illegally?) - which paved the way for him to become a Senator. Now, all his relevant historical information (including the original birth certificate, his college transcripts, and his travel records) are sealed and protected by high priced lawyers.

Why hide it? Are there embarrassing surprises in the hidden documents?

This administration claimed it would be the most 'open, transparent, and integrity filled administration' ever.

The hiring of tax cheats, lobbyists, socialists, and czars is proving that claim to be an immense lie.

His constant attacks on business (profits) and individuals is wearing very thin and his lies are starting to generate chatter.

It doesn't help that the media's portrayal of the 'athletic' president doesn't match the reality of his complete and total klutziness. (bowled a 37, throws like a girly girl, and may be even worse at golf). What else has the media fed us that doesn't match reality?

The Demoncrat O may have Won, but I can't wait till he's done and all his supporters hang their heads in humiliation and shame for voting this fraud in.

[Sue]

Mantis,

I will guarantee you that they did not "discard" the paper trail. It is locked away somewhere. I will also guarantee you that if I were to ask for the "original" BC of my mother, born in Hawaii in 1961*, I would be able to get a copy of it. It would show her parents' occupation, the hospital where she was born, the doctor who delivered her. All information that genealogy buffs are looking for.

If you were to go to the statutes governing records keeping in Hawaii, I bet you would find where there is statute forbidding the intentional destruction of original documents.

* Not really, just using that as an example. My mother was much older and born in Texas.

[mantis]

I will guarantee you that they did not "discard" the paper trail.

How can you guarantee that?

I will also guarantee you that if I were to ask for the "original" BC of my mother, born in Hawaii in 1961*, I would be able to get a copy of it.

I've been asking the birthers to do just that for a while now. Surely there is one birther born in Hawaii around the same time. If they were to succeed, I would find that a very compelling reason to rethink this issue. So far, no one has.

If you were to go to the statutes governing records keeping in Hawaii, I bet you would find where there is statute forbidding the intentional destruction of original documents.

One would think you might do such a thing before "guaranteeing" their existence.

[JBean]

Because they digitized the information on the original, as they did with all of the birth records since 1908. The digital record is all they have now.

I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Do you believe that "the digital record" is something other than an image of the original birth certificate?

Hint: It's not -- I've ordered records, from the various US States, and European countries, that were "digitized." They are digital images of an original certificate -- a picture of the original.

[Linda]

As I have said on another post, I do not adhere to the kenyan birth. I do however have the copies of his mothers divorce from Soetoro which states:

1 child over the age of 18 still dependent on support.

laws at the time would not have listed the child unles he/she had been adopted, so the question is not where he was born, rather when did he denounce his Indonesian citizenship? My guess never, since his selective service records have been proven to be fraudualnt by a top govt official who retired just before Obama's official announcement to run for prez.

scroll down for the Breitbarttv episode:

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/breaking-news-us-state-dept-says-certification-of-live-birth-posted-online-lacks-proof-of-birth/

[PJ]

"My view is that this is merely the MSM distraction/rightwing demonization du jour designed to avert our eyes from Obama's falling poll numbers."

That's why I am all for getting the birthers to shut up, as it distracts from what a bad President he is and makes him seem sympathetic and his opponents like angry nuts.

Obama was born in Honolulu. There's not just a COLB, there's 2 newspaper birth announcements, state of hawaii vouching for his records, and there are personal statements of his place of birth (sister Maya). Any demand for further documentation to prove this is just a dead-end rabbit trail.

[mantis]

I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Do you believe that "the digital record" is something other than an image of the original birth certificate?

It's certainly could be, but I stated above that I don't know.

Hint: It's not -- I've ordered records, from the various US States, and European countries, that were "digitized." They are digital images of an original certificate -- a picture of the original.

Any of those states Hawaii after 2001?

[Parking Lot]

((I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai'i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.))

The Hawaii DOH needs to clarify wtf they mean by "have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

In what exact form is original birth certificate on record? Is it the original historical paper birth certificate archived somewhere? Is it a database record with paper originals or microfiche to back it up? Or is it merely a database record with NO copies of the original remaining?

Methinks the Hawaii DOH is trying to cover their ass on this; maybe they are finding their digitized data enterprise is insufficient to answer the questions raised by this situation; if they destroyed the originals they are up the creek imo.

[Neo]

… and who says that the Birthers” are Republicans ?
Did they look at the registration cards ? .. their long form birth certificates ? .. their web sites ?

[Linda]

But, even if he had renounced those citizenships when he came of age in 1979, under the definition, he could have never held any other US citizenship, other than that of, “citizen by way of birth on the soil only” under the 14th Amendment which we will get to shortly.

This man spent the most impressionable years of his life fathered by 2 foreigners, one British/Kenyan and the other Indonesian. The rest of his youth he spent under the wing of a “Proud Communist” grandfather and also under the wing of the county’s most renowned communist at the time, Frank Marshall Davis, who fled the mainland for Hawaii to avoid prosecution. So, for all of BHO aka BHS’s young life before he came of age, he either was under the wing of foreigners or citizens who hated America and the Constitution and fought politically to undermine the country and the Constitution until the day they died.

Now some say that because of the Indonesian citizenship, he was automatically disqualified, but this is where I disagree with those claims.

Citizenship at birth can never be changed. History and research are very clear on this point. However, the actions of the person once they become of age, come into play as to qualifications for any elected office, thus the reason for the 14 year requirement in Article II, Section 1, Clause V.

To be qualified, the person MUST have formally renounced any other citizenship before that 14 yr qualification, therefore leaving only their “natural-born” US citizenship having jurisdiction over them. For BHO aka BHS, since he was an Illinois State Senator 1st, and had he been a “natural born” citizen, he would have had to formally renounce his dual citizenship no later than 1991, thus leaving only his US citizenship that he owed allegiance to. Unfortunately for BHO, there are records showing he traveled on a foreign passport during his term in the Illinois state senate and possibly also during his term as a US Senator for the state of Illinois. But more importantly, there are no records that can be found of BHO aka BHS formally renouncing any of his prior citizenships to the US State Dept. anytime between 1979 and 1991 that would have made him eligible to hold any elected office. To this day, BHO aka BHS still holds multiple citizenships.

read all about it here

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/whiplash-syndrome-feverishly-sweeping-the-nation/

[Original MikeS]

I don't believe that Hawaii doesn't have a more official document than the COLB.

I'm more interested in Borak's college transcripts than his BC. I suspect that the BC may reveal some embarrassing stuff that the infant Borak wasn't really responsible for. In the case of the concealed transcripts, any embarrassing information would be the responsibility of an adult Borak.

[jimmyk]

Why does the MSM keep bringing race into this? It's a question of nationality, which would be relevant regardless of whether Obama's father were Kenyan, Swiss, or Chinese. It's almost like Gates's preposterous "Why? Because I'm black man in America?" Just another aspect of using race to make someone immune to any criticism or inquiry.

[Thomas Collins]

OFF TOPIC ALERT

Jack is Back, it turns out that my son will be teaching in Shreveport. If your physician friend has any recommendations as to an internist in Shreveport, please send me an email at nunway2@yahoo.com.

[royf]

I just don't see this as some big strike against Republicans, No matter how much the zerobots and their mouthpieces in the media want to paint all conservatives as birthers I just don't see the majority of open minded folks buying it. And the polls I've seen indicate most people think Ogabe should release his BC.

I think it is funny how the turfers all rush in with the same old talking points. Plus at some point most reasonable people are going to think all the secrecy is strange. Hey if it opens some peoples eyes to the mirage that is Obama more power to it. I just don't see it as some big defining problem.

[mantis]

laws at the time would not have listed the child unles he/she had been adopted, so the question is not where he was born, rather when did he denounce his Indonesian citizenship?

You should probably rely on someone with a firmer grasp on the law than Orly Taitz for information. Even if Obama was adopted by his mother's second husband, that would not revoke his United States citizenship.

My guess never, since his selective service records have been proven to be fraudualnt by a top govt official who retired just before Obama's official announcement to run for prez.

More BS from the birthers.

[Mark O]

"Posted by: Marko | July 27, 2009 at 02:48 PM"

So, are we really related or are you merely my lower-case twin?

[mantis]

I don't believe that Hawaii doesn't have a more official document than the COLB.

How nice. Do you believe man landed on the moon?

[Parking Lot]

((There's only one form of birth certificate," ))

The COLB is stamped "abstract or copy". If it is a copy, what does it copy? A database file? If it is an abstract, what does it abstract? The digital database is also an abstract of information taken from an original paper document so technically the COLB is an abstract of an abstract.

Is there any additional information in the vital birth statistics database other than what is on the COLB?

I think it is very wrong for Hawaii or any other state or bureaucracy to destroy orginals of VITAL records. Yes VITAL has meaning.

[JBean]

Me: I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Do you believe that "the digital record" is something other than an image of the original birth certificate?

You: It's certainly could be, but I stated above that I don't know.

Ah, but you did state earlier "the fact is no one can photocopy the original, as demanded by the birthers."

Now you've gone from making a blanket statement about "the digital record" to deliberately obfuscating. If you "don't know" then why post that statement?

And again, the images that Hawaii, and every other state has stored, are indeed, in the popular parlance "photocopies of the original" (in the digitized era).

[Linda]

You should probably rely on someone with a firmer grasp on the law than Orly Taitz for information.

Read my next post, I address that. I also believe in Orly, and if you had taken the time to actually read all the dossiers, you would see that she covers every aspect in her filings.

You shouldn't rely only on what the lame stream media tells you. They only report what helps them to cover for Obionecantshowme.

[Dennis D]

Did the fact that Bush had an Honorable Discharge prevent MSM from pursuit of the Bush Awol story?

[mantis]

The COLB is stamped "abstract or copy".

Close. The State Registrar's stamp says "I CERTIFY THIS IS A TRUE COPY OR ABSTRACT OF THE RECORD ON FILE IN THE HAWAII STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH."

A database file?

Perhaps.

If it is an abstract, what does it abstract?

The full record.

The digital database is also an abstract of information taken from an original paper document so technically the COLB is an abstract of an abstract.

Presumably the digital record has all of the information from the original, which would not be an abstract.

Is there any additional information in the vital birth statistics database other than what is on the COLB?

Very likely, considering that other original records from the same time period have more info.

[Neo]

Are the Democrats going to handle this one ?

[Sue]

How can you guarantee that?

Doing years of genealogy work. I don't have any relatives in Hawaii or I would prove my point. I too have wondered why no one born around the same time frame hasn't done exactly that. Maybe they will now that Hawaii has said they "discarded" the paper trail of every person born in Hawaii.

One would think you might do such a thing before "guaranteeing" their existence.

Yeah, I should have. http://hawaii.gov/dags/archives/records-management/Law%20Regarding%20Government%20Electronic%20Records.pdf>Source.

“§92-29 Reproduction of government records [on films]. Any public officer having the care and custody of any record, paper, or document may cause the same to be photographed, microphotographed, [or otherwise] reproduced on film[. The film shall be of durable material and the], or copied to an electronic format. Any device or electronic storage system used to copy or reproduce the record, paper, or document [on the film] shall accurately [reproduces] reflect the information in the original thereof in all details.”

(Some of this is struck out but the formatting didn't transfer.)

The original paper trail may have been destroyed but the original is still available if Obama wanted it.

[Mark O]

Hey, after we force them to produce the original, can't we argue it was forged? Fake but accurate? He's not really the one named in the document? Won't the certificate be vague? Ambiguous? Laid-back? (You know how island people can be!)

Was it back dated? Maybe Obama isn't old enough to be president. Maybe he's older than he claims and Hawaii was then just a territory. What confusion will ensue!

Let's use some imagination, people.

[mantis]

Ah, but you did state earlier "the fact is no one can photocopy the original, as demanded by the birthers."

Yes, because you can't photocopy a piece of paper that doesn't exist, and you can't photocopy a digital record.

Now you've gone from making a blanket statement about "the digital record" to deliberately obfuscating. If you "don't know" then why post that statement?

I don't know the exact form the digitization took, but I do know the difference between a digital record and a discarded piece of paper. It's not hard to understand.

And again, the images that Hawaii, and every other state has stored, are indeed, in the popular parlance "photocopies of the original" (in the digitized era).

If, in fact, they have a scan of the original stored, and not just the information from that original. Do you know which form the Hawaii records are in?

[Original MikeS]

Mantis,
How do you justify you're insistence that no original Hawaii birth certificates still exist, with the claim by the Director of Health for that state that he actually saw Barack's original birth certificate?

[mantis]

The original paper trail may have been destroyed but the original is still available if Obama wanted it.

This makes no sense. The original information is still retained by the state in some form, but it is not available to Obama. The COLB is what the state issues.

[royf]

mantis isn't trying to justify anything in his mind, he's here to mouth the rhetoric he has been told to say.

[Linda]

Hawaiian birth records of 1961 are on microfich, have been for years and you still can get a copy of the original.

[mantis]

The original paper trail may have been destroyed but the original is still available if Obama wanted it.

This makes no sense. The original information is still retained by the state in some form, but it is not available to Obama. The COLB is what the state issues.

[Blanket]

2 things that seems to be lost on those who are defending Obama:

1) Why has Obama personally shelled out over 1.2 million dollars to keep that BC locked up?

2) Why has no one mentioned the issue that our troops could be in deep crap, specifically with the ICC in The Hague, if Obama's long-form BC is not verified?

Let me lay this out for you:

If it was to be found that Obama's LFBC was not found and he was determined not to be a citizen, that means any order that he made after January 20, 2009 is null and void. Meaning any orders given to the troops have no bearing.

Because those orders are void, members of the military can then be held on charges in the International Criminal Court because they went in without orders. It would be applied retroactively.

Obama is, by not releasing that LFBC, putting our troops in harm's way.

[JBean]

Yes, because you can't photocopy a piece of paper that doesn't exist, and you can't photocopy a digital record.

Cute. Pick nits, much? You can photocopy the output of a digital image -- just send it first to the printer, dude.

I don't know the exact form the digitization took, but I do know the difference between a digital record and a discarded piece of paper. It's not hard to understand.

Obviously, it is, for you, "hard to understand."

If, in fact, they have a scan of the original stored, and not just the information from that original. Do you know which form the Hawaii records are in?

Why does that matter? JPG, GED, PDF -- who cares? An image is an image, except, of course, to the non-birther non-believers, who are apparently a tougher nut to crack than the original birthers.

[Sue]

This makes no sense. The original information is still retained by the state in some form, but it is not available to Obama. The COLB is what the state issues.

The state will provide a true and correct copy of the original BC if one is requested.

[Curious Citizen]

Why would anyone spend MILLIONS of dollars JUST to NOT show a birth certificate?

It's certainly not because he wants to spend money.

It's certainly not because he is everyone's President, and desires to address the citizens' concerns.

Everything points to the typical Obama result: division, confusion, lying. Never peace, understanding, wisdom, healing. Just more division, confusion, lying.

The entire thing can be taken care of immediately by releasing the BC. What harm is there in that? Hmmm...???

[Linda]

Here's one for you all, on the COLB online, in the bottom left corber in parentisis it say (Rev 11/01), do you know what the means?

It means in Nov of 01, Obama's records were opened and changes were made.

What were those changes?

This is where that Indonesian citizenship thangy comes in. It was the yr he became a state senator and had to get his record corrected because of the scuttle-butt surrounding his citizenship and he now had to start scrubbing his records clean.

I refer you to the 4th kind of birth record one can obtain from Hawaii:

BC4. If a child is born in Hawaii, for whom no physician or mid wife filed a certificate of live birth, and for whom no Delayed Certificate was filed before the first birthday, then a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth could be issued upon testimony of an adult (including the subject person [i.e. the birth child as an adult]) if the Office of the Lieutenant Governor was satisfied that a person was born in Hawaii, provided that the person had attained the age of one year. (See Section 57-40 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961.) In 1955 the “secretary of the Territory” was in charge of this procedure. In 1960 it was transferred to the Office of the Lieutenant Governor (“the lieutenant governor, or his secretary, or such other person as he may designate or appoint from his office” §338-41 [in 1961]).

retired CIA officer has this to say:

In 1982, the vital records law was amended to create a fifth kind of “original birth certificate”. Under Act 182 H.B. NO. 3016-82, “Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that the proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.” In this way “state policies and procedures” accommodate even “children born out of State” (this is the actual language of Act 182) with an “original birth certificate on record.” So it is even possible that the birth certificate referred to by Dr Fukino is of the kind specified in Act 182. This possibility cannot be dismissed because such a certificate certainly satisfies Dr Fukino’s statement that “I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.” If this is the case, Dr Fukino would have perpetrated so unusually disgusting a deception that I find it practically incredible (and I greatly doubt that anyone could be that shameless). On the other hand, if the original birth certificate is of types 2, 3, or 4, Dr Fukino’s statement would be only somewhat less deceptive and verbally tricky. I only bring up this possibility to show how cleverly hedged and “lawyered” and basically worthless Dr Fukino’s statement is.

However, the likelihood that this computer-generated “Certification of Live Birth” was forged, is, I believe, increased by the fact that it has been pretty clearly established that Obama “either didn’t register for the draft or did so belatedly and fraudulently. The documents indicate that it’s one or the other.” http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/004431print.html The forgery of Obama’s selective service registration was necessary, because according to Federal law, “A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service. This applies only to men born after December 31, 1959.” http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/draft2.htm)

It is also very strange that Dr Fukino’s statement in no way attested to (or even addressed the issue of) the authenticity of the “Certification of Live Birth” (and the information that appears on it) that the Daily Kos blog and the Obama campaign posted on line. Dr Fukino merely stated that “I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”

If there is no hospital or physician record in the vault birth certificate, then he wasn’t born in a hospital in Hawaii. And a home birth or non-hospital birth can then be ruled out for the following reason.

When someone has a home birth or is not born in a hospital, this becomes a part of his family’s lore and is now and again spoken of by his parents. He and his siblings grow up knowing that he was born at home or his uncle’s house, etc. The fact that someone in the campaign told a Washington Post reporter that he was born in Kapioliani hospital and his sister said he was born at Queens hospital indicates that there was not and is not any Obama/Dunham family memory of a home birth or non-hospital birth in Hawaii.

And if there is no hospital record in the original vault birth certificate, then he was not born in a hospital in Hawaii.

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/barack-obama%e2%80%99s-eligibility-an-intelligence-investigator%e2%80%99s-june-10-2009-report/

[Geek, Esq.]

So, now we should investigate Obama's dead grandparents for fraud because a bunch of the extra-chromosome rightwingers are in a lather?

Oy.

COLB=Legal proof in every court in every jurisdiction in the United States.

[Jane]

You don't have to investigate a thing Geek. I can't quite figure out why you think you do.

[Linda]

Permit me to explain this to those with narrow minds...

Indonesia did not recognize dual citizenship, therefore Obama's mother had to renounce his US citizenship for him to be able to enter school in Jakarta.

Now, following the law and the fact that a child can not be held responsible for the actions of their parents, all Obama had to do was go to the state dept and fill out a form, renounce the Indonesian citizenship and his birth status was restored.

However, it does not take someone with a law degree to see that since he blew off registering for the selective service, which by the way every male citizen and legal immigrant was suppose to do, Obama could not apply for federal student loans since he did not register, he has to keep his college records sealed to cover his lioe of allthose student loans he had to pay off.

Requirements for getting student loans at that time were very strict.

[Parking Lot]

((Maybe they will now that Hawaii has said they "discarded" the paper trail of every person born in Hawaii. ))

If that is what they've done, that is CRIMINAL imv. But it explains why the Hawaii DOH seems to be keeping its head down ... the statements made by its officials and the information on its web sites are vague to say the least. If they engaged in a great "paperless" digitization project by destroying orginal, historical vital records, this incident is showing up the project's glaring faults. Even if 0 is legal in every way, someone in the future might not be. This incident demonstrates that if there are no original documents to study the system clearly has faults and weaknesses that are subject to abuse.

[Linda]

Geek, esq...tell that to the guy who just reported last week that he can't get a US passport with his.

[Peter UK]

" Either way, the continuation of the "controversy" helps Obama more than it hurts him. So says I."

If Obama is a success this will go into the file marked "Resurrection" if no it will bring him down.
Politics isn't about policy,it is about the manipulation of myths and tribal hatreds,forget rationality.

[Krys]

mantis - then why did the Doctor quoted above say she saw his original certificate on file if you say none exists. Why does not Obama or Axelrod or someone say - my longer original certificate no longer exists. I doubt that it was destroyed. There is a major play of words here...if you write away for a copy you get the short form - if you go to the actual department you can view your digital long form and obtain a copy. I'm sorry, I do believe his long form exists with damaging info or he was not born in Hawaii. For 10 dollars it could all be solved. Are you telling me the Dept of Health no longer records hospital and attending doctor? I highly doubt that. Yes if you request a copy you get the short form (COLB) however, the long one exists, they just do not issue or mail it out - you have to go there and prove identity. If you notice there is always a play on words - there is never an official clearly stating that they saw the long form original certificate noting the doctor, time, and hospital. No one will go on the record with that...they will just say they saw the "certificate"....
The fact that Obama himself is completely silent on the issue tells me all I need to know. If this were Palin, the reporters would be swarming the DOH and issuing lawsuits.

[Neo]

“The point that they make is the Constitutional mandate that the U.S. President be a natural born citizen, and the White House has not done a very good job of dispelling the concerns of these citizens. My focus is on issues where I can make a difference to stop the liberal agenda being pushed by President Obama.”

-- Inhofe spokesman Jared Young

I agree. Let's leave this to Obama and the "Birthers" to settle.

[mantis]

How do you justify you're insistence that no original Hawaii birth certificates still exist, with the claim by the Director of Health for that state that he actually saw Barack's original birth certificate?

That's not what she said, that's how. Here's what she actually said:

"Therefore I, as director of health for the state of Hawaii, along with the registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

She doesn't say she has personally viewed the paper original, she states that they have it on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. Are you familiar with those?

A photograph, microphotograph, reproduction on film, or electronic copy of a government record shall be deemed to be an original record for all purposes, including introduction in evidence in all courts or administrative agencies.

Again, the facts are to be dismissed, distorted, or ignored whenever they don't comport with birthers' imagination.

[suze]

Who wrote?
Obama was born in Honolulu. There's not just a COLB, there's 2 newspaper birth announcements, state of hawaii vouching for his records, and there are personal statements of his place of birth (sister Maya).

If you're going on personal statements, his sister's is flawed: she actually gave two different hospital names when she made the statements (well into the election season, btw) and the kenyan grandmother ALSO stated that SHE was at his birth - in Kenya!! So which "proof statement" do you use? personal statements, or legal doc?

I agree that the problem is actually another factoid on the certificate - ie. the father is actually Frank Davis, the commie perv who wrote about raping a young girl named Anne repeatedly, and how much she liked it. It is more likely that Barry is davis' son, which would explain why Barry's grandpa would bring the kid back into davis' world for mentoring...once his mother abandoned him.

[JM Hanes]

mantis:

Perhaps you should return to the tape yourself. The reporter who came across the birth announcements asserted that, "Newspaper officials he checked with confirmed those notices came from the state Department of Health." Those announcements included the Obamas' purported home address. The COLB made available to the public does not, so Health Department records obviously included additional information.

I would also suggest that you reread the statement included above in Tom's post which comes from Chiyome Fukino -- Janice Okubo's boss. There are a host of technical reasons for preferring to issue an abbreviated digital record, which can be printed out on demand, and Fukino confirms that the Health Department does, in fact, have Obama's "original birth certificate on record." This would likely be a scanned copy of the original, which can be stored in a computer archive, rather than maintained in the physical archive which Hawaii has eliminated.

Contra Fukino, Okubo has made a rash of conflicting statements on this issue, but it would be more accurate to say the a COLB is the equivalent of a birth certificate for most practical legal purposes.

When almost every presidential candidate except Obama has been willing to provide comprehensive records on virtually everything from medical histories to clients to finances, no one should be surprised by the questions which arise -- especially about the very man who rode into office promising transparency every step of the way.

[mantis]

Here's one for you all, on the COLB online, in the bottom left corber in parentisis it say (Rev 11/01), do you know what the means?

It means in Nov of 01, Obama's records were opened and changes were made.

No it doesn't, not necessarily. It very likely means they were digitized in 2001, as Hawaii has already noted.

It was the yr he became a state senator and had to get his record corrected because of the scuttle-butt surrounding his citizenship and he now had to start scrubbing his records clean.

Obama was elected state senator in 1997, and took office in 1998. How come birthers always have their facts wrong? Oh yeah, because the facts don't fit the conspiracy theory. Stupid facts.

[JBean]

Linda --

It means in Nov of 01, Obama's records were opened and changes were made.

No, Linda, it most probably means that changes were made, across the board, to every cert filed in Hawaii, in accordance with the new procedure adopted by Hawaii. There's no such thing as "records opened and changes made" to individual birth records, by anyone who cares to screw up the records, as your post implies.

And long, multi-paragraph conspiratorial posts do nothing but glaze the eyes of the viewer, encouraging him/her to skip to the next post, in case you're wondering.

[mantis]

Why does that matter? JPG, GED, PDF -- who cares? An image is an image, except, of course, to the non-birther non-believers, who are apparently a tougher nut to crack than the original birthers.

Who said it is necessarily an image? You did, with no facts to back that up.

[mantis]

1) Why has Obama personally shelled out over 1.2 million dollars to keep that BC locked up?

He hasn't. That number was invented by lying birthers.

[JM Hanes]

DOT:

"If you presented to the Supreme Court conclusive proof that Obama was not natural-born, they would not grant you any relief anyway. If they said anything at all, they would say that any defects in eligibility were waived (or mooted) when the electors met, or when the secretaries of the various states certified him as the winner in their states."

While it is, indeed, difficult to imagine what possible remedy there might be post inauguration, I should think that simply waiving a *constitutional* defect would not be as easily accomplished as you suggest.

[asterisks inserted for the folks who are seeing the entire thread in italics]

[mantis]

Indonesia did not recognize dual citizenship, therefore Obama's mother had to renounce his US citizenship for him to be able to enter school in Jakarta.

First of all, prove that you needed to have Indonesian citizenship to enter school there in the late 1960s (I know for a fact you didn't, but go ahead and try to prove it). Second, Obama's mother could not have renounced his US citizenship even if she wanted to.

[Linda]

NO, sorry to dispell your beliefs but it is ON RECORD that hawaii didn't start the digitizing process until 2006, but that is besides the point..

a Hawaiian offcial in the vital records dept was questioned about that date and the response was..

"it is the date of the latest update of the birth persons record to make changes to the birth record."

[Parking Lot]

((Politics isn't about policy,it is about the manipulation of myths and tribal hatreds,forget rationality)

which they know very well and explains why they are freaking out about this, the more people hear about it, the more they question 0's legitimacy ...

[mantis]

mantis - then why did the Doctor quoted above say she saw his original certificate on file if you say none exists.

Once again, she didn't say that.

Why does not Obama or Axelrod or someone say - my longer original certificate no longer exists. I doubt that it was destroyed.

Because they pay no attention to crazy ass birthers?

I doubt that it was destroyed. There is a major play of words here...if you write away for a copy you get the short form - if you go to the actual department you can view your digital long form and obtain a copy.

You can? Fine, get a Hawaiian birther to go do that. Get video evidence.

Are you telling me the Dept of Health no longer records hospital and attending doctor?

No, and no one said anything like that.

If you notice there is always a play on words - there is never an official clearly stating that they saw the long form original certificate noting the doctor, time, and hospital.

Easily explained by the fact that they discarded the long form original certificate when they went paperless in 2001. How can someone view something that does not exist?

The fact that Obama himself is completely silent on the issue tells me all I need to know.

Birthers and other conspiracy theorists see everything, including evidence disproving their claims, as evidence proving their claims. It's a mental disorder.

[mantis]

NO, sorry to dispell your beliefs but it is ON RECORD that hawaii didn't start the digitizing process until 2006, but that is besides the point..

Since you have almost every other fact wrong so far forgive me for not believing you until you provide some evidence. It's on record? Where's the record?

[Linda]

mantis,

You can go to Jakarta govt site and read all about it.

And, yes a parent can act ont he childs behalf, however, like I said, it can not be held against the child once they become of age aka 18 if that child wishes to regain US citizenship. All it took was a bit of Obionecantshowme's time, & I guess he really didn't care too much.

Kinda like he is acting now, blowing off all our Allies for the dictators

[mantis]

Linda,

You offer no links or other support for your many assertions, despite requests. This is typical of birthers, and not really worth responding to anymore.

[boris]

COLB skeptics = rightwing kooks
Palin supporters = rightwing kooks
Rush listeners = rightwing kooks
Coulter readers = rightwing kooks
FNC viewers = rightwing kooks
Booosh voters = rightwing kooks
Reagan admirers = rightwing kooks
Free market advocates = rightwing kooks

At some point the excercise gets discredited. IMO bending over backward to avoid the rightwing kook label is counterproductive. None of that stuff holds a candle to mainstream HuffnKositude moonbattery.

[JBean]

Mantis --

Me: Why does that matter? JPG, GED, PDF -- who cares? An image is an image, except, of course, to the non-birther non-believers, who are apparently a tougher nut to crack than the original birthers.

You: Who said it is necessarily an image? You did, with no facts to back that up.

And if the "proof" of birth is not an image, what is it? An emanation? A penumbra? No one in the genealogy community would be satisfied with less than an image of a certificate or register, but, of course, that matters not to you.

And your facts are...? I'm waiting.

[Linda]

manits,

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/barack-obama%e2%80%99s-eligibility-an-intelligence-investigator%e2%80%99s-june-10-2009-report/

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/bringing-the-constitution-into-the-21st-century/

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/whiplash-syndrome-feverishly-sweeping-the-nation/

but you will have to go to the links yourself, that is where that personal responsibility thing comes in. Try it, you might like it and you just might learn the truth of American history.

[mantis]

And if the "proof" of birth is not an image, what is it? An emanation? A penumbra?

As I've stated multiple times, I don't know what form the digitized Hawaiian records are in. Why is that so hard for you to understand.

No one in the genealogy community would be satisfied with less than an image of a certificate or register, but, of course, that matters not to you.

You're right, I don't care what the genealogy community thinks. I care about what the State of Hawaii actually did.

And your facts are...? I'm waiting.

Wait all you want. Again, I'm not saying the records were not scanned and kept as image files, I'm saying that I don't know how they were digitized. Neither do you, apparently, but you're eager to make assertions despite this fact.

[fdcol63]

Occam's Razor would suggest that since both Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack H. Obama Sr. were students in Hawaii, living in Hawaii, at the time of Obama's birth, that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii.

I find it doubtful that a pregnant woman would travel to Kenya in 1961, let alone give birth there.

I think there may still be citizenship issues, but I don't think they're based on WHERE he was born.

[Peter UK]

Mantis.
"Because they digitized the information on the original, as they did with all of the birth records since 1908. The digital record is all they have now.

By the way, repeatedly putting "destroyed" in quotes is amusing since no one said anything about documents being destroyed, only discarded."

If going "paperless" only began in 2001,I will bet a pound to a penny they have only scratched the surface,It is conceivable that all records from 2001 are paperless but the backlog will be enormous. Been there adsum.What has been the population of Hawaii since records began? Exactly!
I don't know,but would also bet that destroying official records is illegal and that there will be all kinds of rigmarole to go through before records are destroyed.

[JM Hanes]

mantis:

"The original information is still retained by the state in some form, but it is not available to Obama."

That's the silliest assertion on this entire thread.

[Frau Geburtsurkunde]

It is obvious that turfer mantis is paid by the word.

[fdcol63]

Why did Hawaii destroy original and important vital statistics docs without converting and storing them in electronic format first?

[mantis]

Linda,

I'm not reading through your many endless screeds to try and find support for the assertions you've made here, on this site. Try linking to something besides your own website.

However, after a very brief look at the three links you provide, I notice that there is zero to back up your assertion that a) Obama would have to become an Indonesian citizen to school there as a child, b) he was adopted by his mother's second husband, c) that his mother renounced his US citizenship, or d) that his mother even could have renounced his citizenship for him, legally.

I'm not wading through that crap anymore, so try posting some links to reputable websites backing up your assertions.

[mantis]

That's the silliest assertion on this entire thread.

Demonstrate that it is, if you can.

[Parking Lot]

mantis

((How come birthers always have their facts wrong? Oh yeah, because the facts don't fit the conspiracy theory.))

Did you frequent forums and blogs and call out the commenters who questioned Bush's NG service as a buch of crazy conspirationists? Do you believe Dan Rather's documents fake ... but accurate? Is it conspiracy theories in generals that you dislike or only conspiracy theories that gore your own bull?

[fdcol63]

What if Obama renounced his citizenship as an adult in order to secure an Indonesian passport for his trip to Pakistan, India, and elsewhere in 1981?

[mantis]

If going "paperless" only began in 2001,I will bet a pound to a penny they have only scratched the surface,It is conceivable that all records from 2001 are paperless but the backlog will be enormous.

Really? Google digitized a million books in just under three years.

[fdcol63]

"Really? Google digitized a million books in just under three years."

This just reinforces my question about why the State of Hawaii would destroy critical vital statistics documents without digitizing them first.

[PeterUK]

"Demonstrate that it is, if you can."

I can neither refigure or understand what you are saying.

Make it simplerer.

[mantis]

Did you frequent forums and blogs and call out the commenters who questioned Bush's NG service as a buch of crazy conspirationists?

No, but I didn't read blogs at the time. I have battled troothers for years.

Do you believe Dan Rather's documents fake ... but accurate?

I believed them to be fake. I don't know about accurate, but I really didn't follow it all that closely.

Is it conspiracy theories in generals that you dislike or only conspiracy theories that gore your own bull?

Conspiracy theories fascinate me in general.