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July 31, 2009

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MJW

For anyone who's curious about the certificate number, I have a little information. Don't expect a punch line at the end, proving or disproving that Obama was born in the USA.

Obama's COLB lists his birthday as Aug. 4, 1961, the registration date as Aug. 8, and the certificate no. as 151 1961-010641. Recently, the BCs of twin girls born at nearly the same time were shown in the Honolulu Advertiser. Their birthdays were Aug. 5, 1961, the registration dates for the local registrar and acceptance dates for the registrar general are Aug. 11, and the certificate numbers are 151 61-10637 and 151 61-10638.

The obvious question is why the twins, who were born and registered after Obama, have smaller numbers. Some have also wondered why the certificate no. format is different.

As far as I can determine, this is the process followed for babies born in hospitals (or at least the one used prior to electronic filing systems):

The mother and the hospital staff fill in the required information, and typically, a doctor signs the certificate.

The BC is then sent to local registrar. Local registrars are generally responsible for processing vital records for a specific region. The size of the region varies from state to state. In some states, a registrar may be responsible for a county, while in other states the registrar may be responsible for a city. With the improvements in transportation and communications, the number of local registrars has decreased.

The local registrar is responsible for checking the submitted certificate to make sure it meets legal requirements, and if it does, accepting it.

Every so often -- which seems to vary from state to state and probably has changed over time -- the registrar sends the recently accepted BCs to the state health department. It is at this point that a state official -- called the registrar general in Hawaii -- adds the birth certificate number.

The certificate number format is standard for all states, though the name for it varies. Nowadays the format is:
### #### ######
The first 3 digits are a state code. The first digit for those born in a state or D.C. is always 1. The next 2 digits are the code for the specific state. The codes for the first 48 states and D.C. are just their position when listed alphabetically. Alabama is 01, Arizona is 02, District of Columbia is 08, Wyoming is 49, etc. Since they didn't want to renumber everything when they added Alaska and Hawaii, they made Alaska 50 and Hawaii 51. I read that some states, such as New York and Louisiana, have had additional numbers assigned to them. I don't know why, or even if it's true, but it doesn't really matter. The next 4 digits are the year of birth. The final 6 digits are the number for the individual BC. In the past (such as 1961) they just started at 1 for the year's first birth and incremented. I read that they now use a more complex system to reduce fraud, but, again, I don't know if it's true, and it doesn't really matter.

The code used at the time of Obama's birth was the same except the year was given as only 2 digits, and the sequence number was 5 rather than 6 digits (Obviously, the difference in format for the certificate number between Obama's COLB and older BCs is just due to reformatting the old number to fit the new system.)

Because the BCs are submitted in batches, and by a number of different local registrars, they aren't assigned in strict order of birth. One explanation for Obama's certificate number being greater than the twins' is that they were submitted by the same local registrar, in the same batch, and the registrar arranged them alphabetically. Since the twins' last name was Nordyke, they would reasonably be slightly ahead of Obama.

(I will probably have more to say on this later.)


MJW

Oops, I left out a dash. I meant the format is:
### ####-######

Fresh Air

LL--

Why so many stories, now? It's another of the patented "Journ-O-List Flood the Zone" deals. The morons all think this is just an ideal way to make all opponents of Zero look like mouthbreathing troglodytes.

It's worked about as well as everything else those assholes have done since Zero took office.

flodigarry

Clarice - thought you might appreciate this. Just got back from AK. While in Girdwood, I noticed a number of residences with Ted Stevens campaign signs. Go Ted!

BR

Daar kom die wa
Die vier perde wa
Hy het nie naam nie
Sy naam moet hy nog kry...

A long-forgotten song from my childhood

Now it's not only the name that's in
question, it's the birth date too! :)

MJW

Lately I've seen quite a lot of discussion on the fact that Obama's COLB says "Date Filed by Registrar" while other COLBs say "Date Accepted by State Registrar." So far, the few examples I've seen with the "Accepted" wording were printed around 2002 and 2003, based on the date stamped on the back. It may be that the state has simply changed the wording since then.

If someone finds a version printed after Obama's COLB with the "Accepted" instead of "Filed" wording, it would seem to me to be quite significant.

I wish the Nordyke twins would provide a freshly printed version of their short forms.

MJW

Or, let me add, a COLB with the "Filed" wording printed before 2003. The question is whether the wording represents differences in the underlying documents, or just revised wording.

(At this point, my bet is on revised wording.)

Jack is Back!

In honor of all journalism graduates who have gone on to politics, governing, having a family, killing bears and pulling in nets, the Times of London have ">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6735567.ece'> this hit piece in today's edition. The long arm of Sarah Palin can reach to the British isles which I can't see from perch in Belgium. I wish I could do a piece on Ibama like this. I know I could find at least 2 or 3 people in Hawaii who think he has abandoned his birth place for the national stage.

OT: So, Phil Anschutz, flush with all the money he made on Michael Jackson concerts at the Millennium Dome or O2 arena (your preference) has decided to dive into public opinion and news by buying The Weekly Standard from Rupert Murdoch and exclaim that he doesn't buy things to not make a profit. Hmmmmm! Is that a foretelling of things to come that might perhaps include one Sarah Palin as a columnist - what that would do the subscription numbers and the subscription price. Just speculating . In other news, Phil is thinking about having Sully cover all births, marriages (gay ones, of course) and deaths in his new role as both a thruther, birther and christianist.

clarice

Interesting flodigarry.

clarice

Politicizing Justice--a very good piece by Jennifer Rubin:
LUN

PeterUK.

From JiB link.
"Now Victoria Burns, a former supporter, shakes her head when Mrs Palin’s name is mentioned. “Palin is all lip service. I thought she was going to do things here but once she went national she got nothing done,” she says. “I don’t think she’ll make president. No one’s going to vote for a quitter. And she’s a quitter.”

So who is Victoria Burns? She seems to have the Democrat talking point down.

Jane

The Holder thing is disturbing.

You know it is interesting that no democrats are concerned at all about things like what is going on at Justice. It's as if they all gave up their values some where along the way - their values and the constitution.

Extraneus

Was there even one Democrat criticism of the Bush Administration that wasn't projection?

The Gonzales accusations were a complete joke, for example, but he sure was "hapless," as Rubin says. All he would have had to do was say "US Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the President, and he can fire them for any reason whatsoever, or no reason at all." Case closed.

I waited for that through the whole fiasco, but it never came. Always wondered why.

Now we get to see what real politicization of Justice looks like.

PeterUK.

Jane,
There are no Democrats anymore,the party has been hollowed out by leftists,the Trotskyist way,entryism.
The left simply have a different set of values,they play to win and they play for keeps.Always advancing the cause ,socialism. Unfortunately the electorate think on old partisan,tribal lines,not understanding the old,give and take within the system has gone.
That is why the left regard your Constitution as a "living document",until it conforms with socialist dogma,then it won't be.

royf

PUK

So who is Victoria Burns? She seems to have the Democrat talking point down.

I'm not sure if this applies to Ms Burns but as I understand many of the dems in Alaska liked it a lot when Sarah went after the entrenched Repub good old boy network. I think that's how they come to be "a former supporter", its all smoke and mirrors as is all the dems rhetoric.

PeterUK.

A little cheer,you are not alone!

"This is unbelievable, but can you imagine working for a company

that has a little more than 600 employees and has the following

employee statistics .

29 have been accused of spouse abuse

7 have been arrested for fraud

9 have been accused of writing bad cheque's

17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses

3 have done time for assault

71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit

14 have been arrested on drug-related charges

8 have been arrested for shoplifting

21 are currently defendants in lawsuits

84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year

And collectively, this year alone, they have cost the British tax payer £92,993,748 in expenses!!!


Yes,it's the House of Commons.

narciso

I guess I'm really not surprised, of course, Jack, it leaves out the real reason
why she resigned, the costs of all these phony ethics complaints, on her own situation and the state's continued smooth
functioning. Citing Mike Hawker the representative from Conoco Phillips, as any kind of authority on what the problems are. Could have been worse though Jay "175K in BP stock" Ramras could have been cited.

Jack is Back!

Victoria Burns is an aspiring mid-age artist with a high school education and doesn't ever to be poor (all according to her website via google search). I suppose anyone more successful than her and a woman would engender a little envy.

I have some "oil" friends who are low on Palin simply because you had the nerve to take them on. No surprises there.

Also, PeterUK, could you come up with a similar run down on our House? Someone ought to be as enterprising at say AEI or Heritage or RNC to do the same but they would probably trap a number of Repubs also.

Original MikeS

I have only the faintest interest in the information on Obama's long form BC which was redacted from the short form. On the other hand I an extremely interested in the exhumation of any and all documents buried by the Obama Presidium, (BC, college transcripts, college entrance exams, etc.).

I think we are all entitled to see those documents based on the 'pig in a poke' principle. Even the most contemptible con man, after suckering someone into buying a pig in a poke, would allow that the buyer can look in the bag once the pig has been purchased.

boris

"Even the most contemptible con man, after suckering someone into buying a pig in a poke, would allow that the buyer can look in the bag once the pig has been purchased."

Good point, although in this case the con artist is also the pig.

Original MikeS

Good point, although in this case the con artist is also the pig.

Yep. the "contemptible" con artist.

PeterUK.

Victoria Burns artist,does not seem to be natural conservative. She would be more at home amongst the feminists who are making ethics charges.

narciso

I recall that Mark Twain, said something about Congress, being a 'uniquely criminal class' I have seen similar statistics I don't recall them right off the back. I do recall that Hawker was associates with at least two of those convicted Alaskan state
representatives.

Terry Gain

MJW

Thank you for your interesting post @2:41
I don't follow the statement in brackets which I've reproduced below.

The code used at the time of Obama's birth was the same except the year was given as only 2 digits, and the sequence number was 5 rather than 6 digits (Obviously, the difference in format for the certificate number between Obama's COLB and older BCs is just due to reformatting the old number to fit the new system.)

For people born in 1961 did Hawaii issue 10 digit Certifications of Live Birth and 13 digit Original Long Form Birth Certificates?

If that's the case I don't understand the point of your post, but I again thank you if I'm missing something.

Cecil Turner

Victoria Burns artist,does not seem to be natural conservative.

No, and her disaffection is typical of the 30% die-hard liberals who loved Sarah when she was just an Alaskan politician bucking the state GOP from within . . . but hated her the instant she became a national threat. Her AK popularity ratings slide (and inability to get anything accomplished once the Dems decided she was no longer an ally) are similarly connected. Dunno what the answer is, but I think she realistically decided the rest of her term would be futile, due to knee-jerk resistance from those wearing political blinders. The foaming discussion in this article is typical.

PeterUK.

Cecil,
I see Victoria Burns posts her pictures at Holistic Junction. Enough said. Amazing how journalists can find just the right(left) ex-supporters.

Cecil Turner

Can someone familiar with military jargon look at the Flight Authorization and tell me what the codes are?

Sorry I'm late to this discussion but . . .
Here are some of 'em:

MP—Mission Pilot
EP—Examiner Pilot
FF—Second engineer
MF—Mission qualified flight engineer/first flight engineer
MK—Mission qualified Communication System Operator
MEGP—Mission Essential Ground Personnel
These by the way, are flight orders, which list the crew on the aircraft. It looks like there were no passengers, but IME they are listed separately (in a thing generally called a "passenger manifest"), so the documentation is not dispositive. And it's common to bundle public affairs events with previously authorized training.

The presence of the F-16's is explained in the first .pdf document. On page 439 is the apparent genesis of the second (single-seat) F-16, which was to provide a photo op for the ANG unit (121 FS). The second (two-seater) was to provide a seat for the combat camera guy who was taking the picture. The tail band of the 121 FS is red with four stars, and it's typical to have one aircraft (generally the CO's) painted up in flashy style . . . here's an undated picture of the "476" aircraft mentioned in the e-mail (and there are a couple different paint schemes on the same jet) . . . I suspect it's got a new, flashier paint job. Bottom line . . . not much interesting here.

MJW

Terry Gain,

I didn't express myself very well. In 1961, the certificate number format was:

### ##-#####

the current format is:

### ####-######

The difference is accounted for by the use of a full four-digit year instead of just the last two digits of the year for the second field, and by expanding the last field from 5 to 6 digits to allow for larger numbers. The use of the full year is no doubt a Y2K change (how little foresight did people have to not consider a new century was just around the corner?). The expansion to six digits was necessary to allow the format to be consistent between states. California had over 380,000 births in 1961, so presumably they couldn't have used the 5 digit format. I don't recall seeing a California BC from that era, so I don't know how they were numbered. I will mention that my Iowa BC, from, I hate to admit, a few years prior to that time, uses the same format as the Hawaii BCs.

So 151 61-10641 is now 151 1961-010641.

All versions of birth certificates in 1961 used the 10 digit version, and all recent recent birth certificates use the 13 digit version.

Hawaii now prints all versions using the new long format, even if they were originally numbered using the short format. Since Obama's COLB was printed in 2007, it is in the long format.

J. B.

I wonder if the real birth certificate lists a different biological father, or maybe lists Obama as illegitimate? Is it possible that Obama is the first Polynesian President? He might actually be the descendant of a black whaler on shore leave in Fiji or Samoa. Is it actually possible that the first black President is a hoax? Inquiring minds are curious.

The list

It's worth noting that someone can be as anti-"Birther" as anyone could be at the same time as they pointed out that the MSM has consistently lied about this issue.

Someone could say the "Birthers" are crazy at the same time as pointing out, for instance, that CNN just made something up. And, that others have then picked up CNN's lie and run with it.

And, that can be used to discredit the MSM, all without engaging in "Birther theories". So, the question becomes, why haven't almost all leaders of the opposition to BHO done that? They could have helped discredit the MSM without engaging in "Birther theories", yet instead they've helped the MSM smear the GOP. See a list of MSM and sub-MSM sources that have lied about this issue at my name's link, and then go out and let their readers know that those sources have been lying to and misleading them.

Frantz Fanon

The space for the father's "Usual Occupation" probably says "Fellow Traveler."

Barry D

Personally, I find it deeply offensive that Mr. Obama is ashamed of the name "Barry."

Is he a racist? Perhaps he's afraid that someone will think he's a Jew. Worse yet, they might think he's an Irishman.

LOL

DoctorOfLove

Question for the birthers:

John McCain was born on a naval base in the Panama Canal Zone. Leaving aside for a moment that the constitutional provision "nautral born" has never been construed (and relying on operational statutes re customs and immigration and the operation of the State Department don't purport to construe it), once you demonstrate that the Messiah can't be president because he was born in Kenya, please distinguish his case (one us citizen parent, not born in the US) from McCain's case (two us citizen parents, not born in the US).

If not being born in the US disqualifies the Messiah, why doesn't not being born in the US also not disqualify McCain?

Asher Abrams

[Close bold tag.]

persiflage

14) His Passport from when he visited Pakistan in the 80's - when US citizens were prohibited to go there. What nationality does it claim?

15) His application documents from Occidental College, Columbia and Harvard, including his application "essay". What nationality do those application documents claim? Did he ever claim nationality/pass himself off as an African (Kenyan) or an Indonesian?

willie

- the medical records of Michelle's sex change operation.
- the name of the guy that thought 'new coke' was a good idea.

Chuck Pelto

TO: All
RE: Posting on Steve Benen's Blog

I find it rather 'interesting' that I cannot post a comment regarding this issue at that site.

Why is that?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....]

Frank Warner

How did every comment become bold face? How?

The Anti-Birthers don't want to know anything. They want to believe without seeing.

Chuck Pelto

TO: All
RE: Heh

I find it rather 'odd' that I can no longer post comments to the web-site run by Steve Benen....at Washington Monthly.

And I have to wonder 'why'. From my perspective, probably because he/she/it can't refute the arguments.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]

Extraneus

They've been protecting their guy all along, Frank.

They know that -- being the most left-wing candidate they've ever had -- he can lead them to the promised land, if only they can keep up the charade. They couldn't care less about whether he had any relevant experience, executive or otherwise, knows anything about economics or foreign policy, has the best interests of the nation at heart, or what his origins or background are.

It ain't about that.

Parking Lot

((If not being born in the US disqualifies the Messiah, why doesn't not being born in the US also not disqualify McCain?))


From what I've read of folks arguing that 0 isn't natural born, they concede that McCain isn't either.

 Single Issue Voter

Does this stop the bold?

Yes, yes it does......

Chuck Pelto

TO: All
RE: Why?....

....is it that my comments don't 'appear' here?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]

 Single Issue Voter

Well, I missed a few pages of comments apparently.Carry on......

Jeff

Some close that bolt tag

Leah

What is the LUN?

punditius

You're all bozos on this bus.

MJW

LoveDoctor

Under the citizenship law applicable at McCain's birth in 1936:

1934 Act of May 24, 1934, Section 1, 48 Stat. 797.

"Any child hereafter born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, whose father or mother or both at the time of birth of such child is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States: but the rights of citizenship shall not descend to any such child unless the citizen father or citizen mother, as the case may be, has resided in the United States previous to the birth of such child. In cases where one of the parents is an alien, the right of citizenship shall not descend unless the child comes to the United States and resides therein for at least five years continuously immediately previous to his eighteenth birthday, and unless, within six months after the child's twenty-first birthday, he or she shall take an oath of allegiance to the United States of America as prescribed by the Bureau of Naturalization."

Since both McCain's were U.S. citizens who had resided in the U.S. previous to his birth, he was a citizen at birth.

Under the citizenship law applicable at Obama's birth in 1961:

1952 The Immigration and Nationality Act of June 27, 1952, 66 Stat. 163, 235, 8 U.S. Code Section 1401 (b). (Section 301 of the Act).

"Section 301. (a) The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

"(1) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

"(7) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States, who prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years. [Emphasis added]

(b) Any person who is a national and citizen of the United States at birth under paragraph (7) of subsection (a), shall lose his nationality and citizenship unless he shall come to the United States prior to attaining the age of twenty-three years and shall immediately following any such coming be continuously physically present in the United State(s) for at least five years: Provided, That such physical presence follows the attainment of the age of fourteen years and precedes the age of twenty-eight years.

(c) Subsection (b) shall apply to a person born abroad subsequent to May 24, 1934: Provided, however, That nothing contained in this subsection shall be construed to alter or affect the citizenship of any person born abroad subsequent to May 24, 1934, who, prior to the effective date of this Act, has taken up a residence in the United States before attaining the age of sixteen years, and thereafter, whether before or after the effective date of this Act, complies or shall comply with the residence requirements for retention of citizenship specified in subsections (g) and (h) of section 201 of the Nationality Act of 1940, as amended."

So if (a big if) Obama was born outside the U.S. of an alien father and a mother who wasn't of enough to have resided in the U.S. for five years after attaining the age of fourteen, he was not a U.S. citizen at birth.

MJW

... a mother who wasn't old enough ...

buddy larsen

I'd like to see us rename "the human race" as "the human racist". Then when we hear the word we can just say, "but of course, silly."

tom swift

That ol' "racism" charge is so, so, so black ... it goes with everything!

Paco Wové

All that shouting just got on my nerves.

M@

full disclosure - i am agnostic on the issue, think the certificate should be released(along with everything else) and am a conservative.

It strikes me though that the most likely reason to not release it is political tactic. Give the vocal fringe a reason to go vocal, let them spiral their conspiracy stories out in to the wackosphere and connect them to the entire opposition. takes credibility away from legitimate criticisms, etc. just a thought.

The Left is shot through with intellectual cowardice.

Steve Benen banned me in less than a day. Matt Yglesias took awhile longer. Their refuters weren't refuting me.

Ah, MJW has the bit between the teeth. Thanks.

skrewibu

How about what passport he used on his 1981 trip to Pakistan? (That he referenced during the campaign and that his campaign staff acknowleged did occur.) Who paid for the trip? Who did he stay with? What did he do there? At a time when Americans were not allowed in to Pakistan.

When he was in college, did he use an Indonesian or other foreign passport? Who paid for his education?

Porchlight

M@,

Perhaps, but by that logic the MSM could have picked up the story pre-election, and that obviously didn't happen. I think it's a risk for them to put it out there, so I'm still puzzled as to why now. Distraction from Obamacare? Maybe, but again, risky.

Porchlight

OT, some cheery news:

Republican Party ID Matches Democrats for First Time in Minnesota Since October 2005

Just look at that spike from June to July.

Duncan

Not to get too conspiratorial here, but I think it's quite possible that the long form is entirely innocent, but that the Obama people don't want to get into the habit of producing documents on demand because they know or are afraid that there's something damning in some other document. If they were forthcoming with every innocent document refusing to release a particular damning document would tip their hand.

I think the truth is that these days very few people who might aspire to, let alone win the presidency could stand complete sunlight, so I'd think that as a matter of prudence a smart administration would dig in its heels early, just to get people used to it, and disguise the times that they really don't want to release documents.

So I don't think that refusing to release the long form means there is anything damaging in it. It just means they are afraid there might be something damaging somewhere else. That would be a reasonable fear, even if Obama weren't the guy he is, with the history he has. Any administration would be smart to do that.

Victor Erimita

Andrew McCarthy is not a birther. In the article you link he says he is convinced Obama was born in Hawaii.

The point of the article, which you evidently did not bother to read before condemning, is that Obama has changed various stories about his own life numerous times. He also changes what he says about various policy matters routinely, often contradicting himself in the same sentence. It indicates a serious concern about any president. Even a Democrat.

PeterUK.

"Doctor Larsen I presume?"

PeterUK.

"It strikes me though that the most likely reason to not release it is political tactic. Give the vocal fringe a reason to go vocal, let them spiral their conspiracy stories out in to the wackosphere and connect them to the entire opposition. takes credibility away from legitimate criticisms, etc. just a thought"

Just like the shooter on the "grassy knoll" how did that work out?

PeterUK.

Victor Erimita.
Very likely,all the more reason to nip it in the bud.Obama is an elected president not Chairman Mao,yet.

MJW

I should mention, before someone else does, that section (h) of The Immigration and Nationality Technical Corrections Act of 1994 retroactively restores citizenship to people "born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States." (Quoting from here)

I will add, though, that while I'm not particularly sympathetic to arguments that being a natural born citizen is separate from being born a U.S. citizen, granting the status retroactively may be stretching things. I at least think the issue isn't clear-cut.

George

"Free Frank Warner" has a great poll question for the DailyKos readers:
Do you believe Obama has released his original 1961 birth certificate?

Boom, Boom, Pow!

Could it release elemental sodium if the silica fuses?

Duncan

MJW: Hmm- that's interesting, I guess, but I'm pretty sure that whatever secrets Obama's long form might contain, him having been born before 1934 isn't among them... maybe I'm missing your point?

I was born illegitimately to an American mother outside the borders of the US. We returned to the States when I was 4 and I've lived here ever since. Since my Mom did nothing right in terms of the paperwork I've always been paperwork-challenged (it took me 5 years of arguing to get a social security number, and I don't have anything resembling a birth certificate. I've never been to Europe because I can't get a passport- I would probably have to appeal to a Senator or something to get my paperwork issues resolved, as lacking a birth certificate makes things difficult.)

At any rate, I always assumed that I couldn't be president because I was born in Canada. Had I known that I was eligible for that august office I might have lived a much less disreputable life.

Kind of like 'settled science', though law is the creation of man, and nature not.

Oops, wrong thread.

Well, said, MJW. I think only that the distinction between 'citizen at birth' and 'natural born citizen' is merely not litigated or precedented. Context and intention of the framers suggest that cboldt's 'citizenship by parent more than by place' is the meaning of Article II.

I don't really know how it should be settled, only that it isn't settled. Of course, any way damaging to Obama is the way I'd like it settled, perhaps to be revisited again in the mists of time, as much of law is.

Duncan

And also- even if it were the case that Obama were not eligible for the Presidency because of his place of birth (and I'm not saying I think that is the case- just posing a what-if) it seems to me that it's too late to challenge his eligibility.

Can you imagine the political turmoil we would experience if a serious attempt to unseat him over procedural issues were mounted? Let alone a successful attempt. I'm not happy with Obama, but even if I thought he were not eligible for the presidency I would ignore that, and concentrate on voting him out in 2012.

And Nixon was just lying about a simple crime and complex cover-up; Obama lies about everything.

No worse than moving out Nixon was, Duncan. Very, very feasible.

LUN for the Kerchner vs Obama, and Cheney case at Texas Darlin'.

Test her legitimacy in 2012.

Heh, and watch Joe Biden resign and Hillary turn VP first.

Al Gibson

I'm betting that Barack Hussein Obama II's birth certificate lists his race as WHITE.

SDN

Tom, I get particularly incensed with people like Gabriel Malor over at Ace's who say we can't ask Obama to follow the Constitution / law on this issue because now that O's been anointed Pres it would be too "disruptive" to require him to produce anything.... not to mention prosecute him for the 35 million in illegal campaign donations that got him elected in the first place, obtained by deliberately disabling every verification of non-foreign donations and individual donation limit checking on his website.

Gabe says that Congress has to do it; never mind that several Democrat congresscritters and Senators did the same thing on their websites. It's not real likely that we can expect an investigation into a co-conspirator, now can we?

SDN

continued....

Meanwhile, at least one commenter brought up the point that there would be riots in every major city if anything was done to hold the One to the same laws as anyone else.

My question, which no one would answer, is that if the courts can't or won't enforce the law; if Congress can't because they are fellow lawbreakers; and if enforcing the laws depends on who can start the biggest riot, then when are those of us who actually believe in a nation of laws going to riot back?

MJW

Well, Duncan, I made a foolish error. I assumed the law I quoted applied to people born after 1934. Obviously that's not what it says!

Riots R US.

That commenter, SDN, has the mood precisely wrong; a number of Congressmen and women have noticed a marked change in attitude at town halls. They are being challenged aggressively.

mark l.

never got the catchy phrase for the contigent of democrats who believed bush/cheney and or rove should be indicted for some crime or another...

as a curiosity, I wonder if someone could run a poll asking how many democrats believe that bush should be brought up on criminal charges.

obama?
has he ever really dispelled this fantasy? or has he had holder play coy, feeding their lunacy, and appeasing his base, without ever addressing the matter?


I'm not a birther, if only for the reason that if the charges were proven true, where does one go from there? replace obama with a competent, in a very relative way, Joe biden?

or just for a blast from the past, has the media ever tackled the 35% of the democrat party who believes 9/11 conspiracies?
rassmussen has two polls from 04 and 07, with little change in the democrat's beliefs.

the most scary part about that 35% of dems is that bush only drew 33% of his support from evangelicals.

'faith' is a very strange thing.

Kevin

there you go

Cecil Turner

. . . I think it's quite possible that the long form is entirely innocent . . .

I have a hard time with this argument. It's clearly a pertinent issue, and they released the copy (of the copy) of the short form. Assuming the long form is available (and I can't see why it wouldn't be), their reluctance to release it indicates to me there's something there. Which I will continue to guess is something embarassing.

But the silliest contention in this case is the pretense that there would be no incentive to fabricate US citizenship for baby Barack, because one could never predict he might someday run for president. Having been a long time resident of a border town, I am well aware of the flood of aliens giving birth in US delivery rooms (and superior medical facilities are not the primary motivation). The idea that US citizenship has no value is clearly erroneous (even if you don't buy into TM's possible-divorce-custody scenario). Which suggests we ought to verify the President's paperwork, even if you trust him.

What?  Me, Trust?

Trust, verify, then distrust if necessary. But 'Distrust and Verify' is a marvelous survival principle.

nano

Not a birther but from examining what facts are known it is possible the Obama Sr. is not the listed father on the certificate long form.

Remember Obama was already in his run for state Senate when his mother passed. He may have found out from reading her copy of the document in her effects that the storyline of his father was a story in error.

But it was already in the media so he would have to do some walk back of the whole story if that was the case.

cathyf

But, nano, that wouldn't be somehow materially different from the story that Obama told in his autobiographies. This was always a story about an inconvenient little boy with self-centered parents who treated him as so much annoying baggage, "rescued" by grandparents who were not real great shakes in the parenting department, either. That the parents and/or grandparents lied to to Obama is completely in character for them. It's hard to imagine anything that could be in the documents that would not cause a reasonable person to be even more sympathetic to Obama.

It's not the birthplace, it's the cover up.

This is one of the mysteries to me, cf. What is so embarrassing in there that his spin doctors can't make him out to be the innocent victim of. This is one of the reasons I've considered that there really is something disabling within the document; otherwise his handlers would have it out there by now.

Something to make him ineligible, or something that reveals an adult act, and a recent one at that, to have been a lie or deliberately deceptive. The more he stonewalls, the more likely there is something he is hiding.

Slartibartfast

Haven't read ALL the comments, but another Kenyan birth certificate has shown up, with Alan Keyes pushing for it to be certified as genuine.

This might be old news; dunno.

bad

Slartibartfast, how many Kenyan BCs have there been?

lurker9876

Smoking gun?

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764

lurker9876

That particular link indicates that they obtained additional BC's from Kenya to compare. I don't know how many they got.

cboldt

That "Is this really smoking gun of Obama's Kenyan birth?" is a new version of a purported certification of birth.


Maybe we'll be treated to a case of duelling long forms. That's be Bodacious.

MJW

At least if the Kenyan BC is fake (which I think is very likely), at least the perpetrators went to the trouble of typing it on a typewriter, fixed-width font and all.

MJW

In my previous comment, I should have used one fewer "at least."

clarice

Where are Lucy Ramirez and Dan Rather when we need them?

Rick Ballard

I wonder if his mom used the Kenyan BC when Lolo turned him Indonesian? His Indonesian passport application would probably be a fun read. He probably renounced the Kenyan citizenship in order to get it.

I told you guys he was a Kendonesian commie bastard.

Barrack Plenty Mtoto

Dear Sir,
Please excuse my familiarity,but time is of the essence.I am Barrack Plenty Mtoto,former Minister of the Kenyan Ministry of the Interior. I have been given your name as a gentleman of probity and good standing.
As you known my country has seen much strife in recent years and it is imperative that a number of refugees,whose lives are at risk, leave the country soon.
To that end I have 5,000 Kenyan birth certificates which must be sent to a place of safe keeping. I am asking you,therefore,as a gentleman of probity and good standing to permit me to send you,under plain cover,the birth certificates which hold the fate of so many.
All I ask in return is a modest deposit of $12 for each certificate as a sign of good faith.
I am sure that you will help facilitate this humanitarian endeavour.
I am Your Humble Servant.
Barrack Plenty Mtoto

MJW

Someone on another website pointed out the supposed birth registration is dated Feb. 17, 1964, from the Republic on Kenya, but that Kenya didn't become a republic until Dec. 12, 1964. This would seem to cast considerable doubt on the documents authenticity.

Elliott

I agree with MJW. While we await word from the graphologists and typographical experts, I would like to observe that of the two largest cities in Kenya, Nairobi is both closer to Obama's father's home village and the more likely port of entry for international air travelers in the early 1960s. Naturally, Mombasa is listed as the place of birth on this "certified copy."

andycanuck

11) whereabouts of my ass that I can't find with my two hands.
And another one added to your list, Neo, at July 31, 2009 at 04:02 PM.

lurker9876

I checked Wiki on the date of declaration, Dec. 12, 1964 but then there is a date above it for Dec. 12, 1963. Did Kenya and Britain come to agreements on Dec. 12, 1963 but declared officially on Dec. 12, 1964?

Maybe Kenya thought itself to be independent from Britain in Dec. 1963 but not officially until late 64?

It's not the birthplace, it's the cover up.

Texas Darlin's got a discussion of this under the 'Federal Office' thread. There is also an E. F. Lavender listed and there is a modern product called Earth Friendly Lavender. We shall see. I would assume Taitz would have it examined by experts before submitting it.

I somewhat fear this is a red herring. If this is thoroughly debunked it may quell the storm, and allow Obama to continue hiding what he is hiding. I always thought it was a longshot that he was born in Kenya.

MJW

One thing I'll say: I think there are curious, unexplained facts about Obama's birth and the COLB, but World Net Daily's reporting by Jerome R. Corsi is so confused as to be embarrassing. He still considers it suspicious the COLB was printed on a laser printer, even though no one disputes that it was. He doesn't seem to know that the COLB on factcheck.org was supplied by the Obama campaign, not the other way around. He's unaware that faint traces of the seal and the fold marks are visible in the original scan. He doesn't realize that all recently printed Hawaii COLBs (including one from 1930) use a four digit date code.

Slartibartfast

"Slartibartfast, how many Kenyan BCs have there been?"

There was another in the last week or two, but that turned out to be a fraud, I think.

WND isn't what I consider a reliable source, so I'm not even partially convinced this is legit. The document is signed by the Deputy Registrar for BD&M for the Coast Province of Kenya, though. If the stamp and seal in the lower left-hand corner is in fact a stamp, added a bit later, that may explain the Kenya/Republic of Kenya mix.

Not that I think this is really It, though. And I don't know that it would mean anything if it were, other than Obama has been kind of holding out on us.

MJW

It looks pretty clear to me that the "Republic of Kenya" part is printed not stamped; and in any case, any stamp and seal would almost certainly have been affixed at the time it was signed and dated.

As lurker9876 mentioned, it's possible that the country was referring to itself as the Republic of Kenya prior to the official Dec. 12, 1964 declaration. Not likely, but possible. I expect some intrepid internet researcher will provide an answer soon.

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Wilson/Plame