Blocking

Mickey Kaus is not so sanguine about big Presidential pushes for anything:

Hmm. When was the last time a President's campaign style attempt to sell a policy has actually succeeded in selling the policy? I can't remember it. I can remember lots of flops (e.g.,Bush on Social Security).

Well, there was that adventure in Iraq...

Comments

[Epphan]

Huh? The selling of Iraq very much went against 43's campaign style...which further proves Mickey's point.

[daddy]

I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth."
— Pres. Kennedy, May 25, 1961

[PeterUK]

"I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and apologising".

President Obama. Just after lunch Tuesday

[Buford Gooch]

"I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this year is out, of landing Obama on the moon and and not apologizing".

The American Public, July, 2009

[matt]

Whip Inflation Now!

[clarice]

OT but red meat for Plamiacs:

In a case in the Dist of Columbia a judge has found that the CIA repeatedly lied to the court, including claiming someone was a covert agent when his cover had been blown in 2002:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090720/ap_on_go_ot/us_cia_fraud

Both Tenet and Panetta are accused of lying to the Court.

[Sue]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090720/ap_on_go_ot/us_cia_fraud>Clarice's link

[Ann]

This is from RUSH's website:

The magic wears off, despite State-Run Media Spin. -RUSH LIMBAUGH

[Pofarmer]

I've heard clips of Barack Hussein a couple of times today. At this point, he's coming off as a thug.

[Ann]

You have to admit that RUSH dressed Michelle better than her staff. (Which has a combined salary of over 1 million.) :)

That staff, by the way, (did I tell you it is at the cost of over One Million) collectively came up with her sponsoring a a future Coast Guard cutter

How do you get one of those jobs?

[Ann]

OK guys, tomorrow you have to make phone calls to your representatives and other state representatives. (Out of state reps will change your future too!!!) I received the following email from the Govment and they will have ACORN working on this 24/7. Let's show them that they can take our money but not our voice. Each state is emailed a different calling list. You can see from mine that they gave Ohio numbers. Please, I know we have a better work ethic than ACORN. If nothing else, we can jam their phone systems so ACORN will not get through and will give up!
HERE IS THE EMAIL:

Friend --

As President Obama said last week, "Inaction is not an option" on health care reform. Its fate will be decided in Congress in the coming days -- and your senators, George Voinovich and Sherrod Brown, are critical to making sure we pass a strong bill.

Will you pick up the phone and ask Senator Voinovich and Senator Brown to support health care reform containing the President's three core principles today?

Make the call now:

Senior Senator George Voinovich at 202-224-3353

Junior Senator Sherrod Brown at 202-224-2315

Just tell the person who answers the phone that you're a constituent, and that you urge your senator to support real health care reform in 2009 that reduces costs, guarantees choice -- including a robust public insurance option -- and ensures quality care for all.

Then click here to report where they stand.

The opponents of reform will stop at nothing to block the President's plan and prop up the broken status quo. Right now, special interests are spending millions on lobbyists to spread misinformation and bully Congress into turning their backs on their constituents.

But together, we are stronger than that.

We know that each door knocked and every call made during the campaign was crucial to putting President Obama in the White House. Today, each call to Congress brings us one step closer to putting the health of all Americans before special interests.

Thanks for your support,

Jeremy

Jeremy Bird
Deputy Director

[Ann]

Oh, and please record your answers at IWON Obama: http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/hccallcongress ">Obama Tyranny

[Frau Gute Nacht]

Thanks, Ann.
This should remind us of *our* duty now and on Sept.12, 2009:

To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
Abraham Lincoln

[glasater]

If I learn of any ACORN agents in my county doing anything described in Ann's comment above--I will track them down like the dirty dogs they are and name them and shame them.

[daddy]

From Clarice's Link:

U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth... criticized CIA Director Leon Panetta, saying he's given conflicting accounts about what should be revealed in the case... Judge Lamberth criticized Panetta for claiming at one point that the CIA's methods for conducting electronic surveillance are state secrets, even though the type of transmitter that Horn claims was used on his coffee table is unclassified and on display at Washington's Spy Museum.

Wonder if a wise Latina Judge would have so publically criticized Panetta?

[pagar]

Oh, and please record your answers at IWON Obama

Just my guess, but I suspect any replies are opening their email addresses to a lot more of the same spam/garbage.

But I totally agree with the effort to counter the ACORN calls. I am repeatedly amazed at the things people don't know. For example, I had a conversation with a young school teacher on Saturday. She was carrying on about how Pres Bush hurt the schools with the No Child left Behind Act. I asked if she was aware that Sen Kennedy was the major sponsor of that bill. She was not, and thought it was a totally Republican effort. I'm hopeful that she will further explore the subject and we may get the word spread to some of her friends.

[Quiz in the AM.]

Don't tell me games are being played with the meaning of 'covert'. I'm shocked, I tell you; downright dumbfounded.

The schools are lost. It's a pity, because public education is a key to the nature of the society we have. At a site council years ago, shortly after its inception, I asked a teacher why it was so universally panned by teachers, and she was honest enough to respond that it was about 'accountability'. And there it is. Charter schools, by contract, or charter, can ensure accountability among parents, teachers and students, and though not without flaws, the model most allows future local control.

[Gimme another try, Teach.]

Ah, the absent antecedent; it, the universally panned above, has as antecedent the No Child Left Behind Act.

[Captain Hate]

She was carrying on about how Pres Bush hurt the schools with the No Child left Behind Act. I asked if she was aware that Sen Kennedy was the major sponsor of that bill. She was not, and thought it was a totally Republican effort. I'm hopeful that she will further explore the subject and we may get the word spread to some of her friends.

LOL; good luck with that. I'm pretty sure that somebody that can't be bothered to find out who produced something that directly impacts her field of purported expertise isn't going to be suddenly afflicted with unprecedented curiosity. I feel bad for good teachers like BobS who are unfortunately stained by association with dolts like this. Sadly the union that values her as much as BobS is probably the source of the propaganda.

[clarice]

"All 1,018 pages of the Democrats' health care bill can be inspected here. The bill includes racial preferences. Under the Democrats' health care bill, if a medical school wants to increase its chances of receiving many different kinds of grants and contracts from the federal government, it should have a demonstrated record of training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups. This is because the Democrats' health care bill requires the Secretary of Health and Human Services to give preference to the entities that have demonstrated such a record in the awarding of these contracts to medical schools and other institutions.

The bill does not state what would qualify as a "demonstrated record", so we can expect medical schools and the other entities to do whatever they think they can get away with to train as many "individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups" as they think they might need to have a better "demonstrated record" in this regard then other entities competing for the grants and contracts. The Democrats' health care bill creates a very significant financial incentive for medical schools and other entities to lower admission standards for "individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups" if that is what it takes to have the winning "demonstrated record".

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/07/public_workers_versus_the_publ.html>Mandating racial rpreferences in health care act

[clarice]

Oops--wrong url--here's the right one:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/07/racial_preferences_in_the_demo_1.html >Racoal preferences

[Jack is Back!]

Clarice,

If this is true (Racial Preferences) then our money will be sent to the University of Bangalore Medical School, University of Manila Medical School and the University of Seoul Medical School. I don't know about you but in my little piece of Florida, most of the docs are filipino, taiwanese, korean and/or indian with a scattering of bangladeshi and pakistani.

We even have a few Honduran and Columbian docs. In Long Island, it seems all the nursing homes are staffed by filipina nurses. But that's just the way it is since med school is too damn expensive here in the USA and more then half the American doctors seem to be women. Another problem is insurance. I know several top notch docs that are on the verge of giving up due to insurance cost - it is over half their combined incomes. But Ibamaniac won't trade tort reform for health care and why would he?

[clarice]

Tort reform? I read yesterday that the Dems have slipped in a provision allowing those who have suffered no harm to sue for mis-billing and the lawyers can collect big fees if they are successful at that.

In the end, if this passes, we'll all be flying to New Delhi for surgeries.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

Oh the irony.

POTUS hosted a conference call with "bloggers" yesterday. Crooks and Liars call them "liberal bloggerS". HuffPo calls them "progressive bloggers". They're just "bloggers" to Obama.
C&L Wrap of the ConfCall

POTUS says the blogs are great at debunking myths. Then when asked a question that includes one of the biggest myths in the healthcare debate -- that rising healthcare costs are causing patients to go bankrupt -- POTUS answers the question and says nothing about the false assertion that rising costs are bankrupting patients.

John Amato of C&L also describes the August recess as "vacation" for members of Congress. It's not. This is yet another myth POTUS fails to debunk on the spot.

The White House is a selectively player of smoke and mirrors. Whatever post-partisan path they had imagined hasn't been seen for a single second in this administration. The President's "I Won" statement will haunt his entire 4 years.

[jimmyk]

The Democrats' health care bill creates a very significant financial incentive for medical schools and other entities to lower admission standards for "individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups" if that is what it takes to have the winning "demonstrated record".

That won't be a problem: Standards will fall all by themselves as state-run health care pushes out private enterprise, and doctors effectively become civil servants. See Amtrak and the Post Office.

[Ranger]

BTW, if people want to let the AARP crowd get a good idea of what Obama care will look like remind them about the http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-09-25-france-heat_x.htm>15,000, mostly elderly, people who died in France during the heat wave in 2003. The French parleament itself described the problem as:

a complex health system, widespread failure among agencies and health services to coordinate efforts, and chronically insufficient care for the elderly.

Of course, the French system is the single payer "model" that leftists here say http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4647483&page=1>we should copy.

The World Health Organization even rates it as the best in the world! (when it's not letting 15,000 mostly elderly people die that is).

[Gabriel Sutherland]

French citizens that can afford the costs carry their own private insurance in addition to the single payer model. It's considered vital over there regardless of what the WHO says.

[clarice]

The high cost of energy is also responsible for those deaths, Ranger. Most of those oldsters had no fans, lets alone air conditioning..it's just not considered a necessary item there and electricity is very expensive.

[jimmyk]

Obama's insistence on the surtax, and the inclusion of the racial preferences, shows that the drive for health care reform is nothing but window dressing for the true agenda of radical income redistribution and political power. There is no reason to link all these things--any health care proposal could be self-financed by premiums, and income redistribution and racial preferences could be handled separately. But they know those things would never fly on their own so they stuff them into this thing called "health care reform." I guess they figured it worked with the "stimulus" bill, why not here?

[verner]

John Goodman's blog (LUN) dispelling the CRAPOLA (aka Democrat talking points) over the uninsured.

Fingers crossed, the tide is turning.

[Old Lurker]

Gabe, the French supplemental insurance will not be available under the US System as I understand it. The only insurance available to us will be existing policies while they last, and then new policies that conform to govt standards and which are offered through the "exchange".

JimmyK is also correct about Med School standards falling on their own. We entertained a group of friends of the kids, all of whom are prime candidates for Med Schools as they decide which road to follow now that they have graduated from college. These kids are the cream of the cream and to a person, they declined any interest in becoming a doctor given the direction that career is headed. So some of damage has already occurred and will reveal itself as gaps appear in the demographic stream in subsequent years.

[Jane]

Clarice,

I think I read that "opportunity for lawyers" as letting lawyers collect medical liens on behalf of the government without permission. When you settle a PI case have to pay back all liens - most lawyers negotiate them and knock off a % for their fee for the privilege. I was trying to figure out how a 3rd party lawyer would get into the mix since the plaintiff lawyer has all the info and would want the chance. I do see a rife opportunity for screwing the client by double charging but otherwise I didn't really get what the opportunity was.

[jimmyk]

OT, more race-baiting: Harvard Black Studies Prof Henry Louis Gates, Jr. arrested for disorderly conduct after police came to his home thinking there was a break-in.

Cambridge police say they responded to the well-maintained two-story home near campus after a woman reported seeing "two black males with backpacks on the porch," with one "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."

...

By the time police arrived, Gates was already inside. Police say he refused to come outside to speak with an officer, who told him he was investigating a report of a break-in.

"Why, because I'm a black man in America?" Gates said, according to a police report written by Sgt. James Crowley.

...
He was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge after police said he "exhibited loud and tumultuous behavior." He was released later that day on his own recognizance. An arraignment was scheduled for Aug. 26.

I had a white friend to whom something very similar happened--he was locked out of his apartment and tried to get in through a window. A neighbor called the police. (My friend fell and injured himself, and was lucky the police came by.) Gates is a hothead who should be thankful the police are watching out for his property. Needless to say, Al Sharpton is now involved.

LUN

[clarice]

Jane, I wish I had the article to double check it, but I think it is similar to what occurs in Medicar3e/Medicaid know where a billing error by a hospital can be the subject of a third party suit on behalf of the govt in which the atty collects a lot of the claim. One of my husband's partners devoted several years to resolving a similar complaint against a teaching hospital because of a dispute as to how to bill for the time of professors who had oversight responsibilities for the work performed largely by other physicians at the hospital.
It's already apparently a rather lucratice practice area which is pinshing hospitals even more to conform to arcane and often unclear billing rules.

[GMax]

I note this today, and remind everyone of my rant on CALPERS and their focus on every prog goal but zero on making sure the investments are solid and sustainable:

California’s huge government pension fund is expected to report today a whopping annual loss of an estimated $56.8 billion, almost a quarter of its investment portfolio.

The loss at the California Public Employees’ Retirement System for the fiscal year ended June 30 is the second in a row for the country’s largest fund. A year ago, CalPERS reported an $8.5-billion loss, as the severe recession began to take hold.

The tremendous drop in value is expected to have a direct effect on the amount of money that the state and about 2,000 local governments and school districts must contribute in coming years to pay for pensions and healthcare for 1.6 million government workers, retirees and their families.

As income from the pension investments fall, the governments would have to make up the difference to meet the state’s pension and healthcare obligations.

Huge issue and guess who is going to be asked to fill the hole? Right. Cali residents would be wise to pack up and get the hell out now before they just come and expropriate it all from you.

[Rob Crawford]

I've heard clips of Barack Hussein a couple of times today. At this point, he's coming off as a thug.

Just at this point? I pegged him as a thug the moment I heard he was a politician from Chicago.

You know what really pissed Chicago politicians off about Al Capone? He didn't have to stand for reelection.

[Gabriel Sutherland]

How did Ron Burkle's investments of CALPERS capital perform?

It sure would be nice to get a sweet gig investing the retirement of state workers, win or lose, while taking the fees collected and channeling them to Democratic Party candidates for public office.

But seriously, this battle is far from over. POTUS is going to turn the screws to get a vote by Friday. The center has to fold like a rotten piece of wood for this to happen.

[clarice]

Jane--I think I was completely wrong--this is not the article I read but it seems to be the issue and (a) the amendment was defeated and (b) I misremembered the objects of the litigation entirely:

"Tuesday, July 21, 2009
Taxpayers, businesses and pretty much everyone not associated with the litigation industry dodged a bullet last week when the House Ways & Means Committee rejected an amendment to the health care bill that Walter Olson of the Manhattan Institute characterizes as “one of the most audacious and far-reaching trial lawyer power grabs seen on Capitol Hill in a while.” The National Association of Manufacturers helped beat back the amendment, but you know how these schemes can return, again and again, in different guises.

The amendment would have expanded the Medicare Secondary Payer (MSP) Act, which allows the government to sue to recoup Medicare expenses, for example, from an insurance settlement in the case of an auto accident caused by a negligent driver. As Walter explains in his excellent post at Overlawyered.com, “Medicare qui tam: a health care bill surprise,” the federal government has been recently stepping up its efforts to collect from what are sometimes known as “Medicare liens” against third party defendants.

Medicare, not to mention Medicare law, gets very abstruse very quickly. Apparently in this complexity someone from the plaintiffs’ bar saw an opportunity to expand the opportunities for litigation. If the health care bill set a precedent, a wealth of new industry targets could open up. Overlawyered.com:

The newly added language in the Thursday morning version of the health bill (for those following along, it’s Section 1620 on pp. 713-721) would greatly expand the scope of these suits against third parties, while doing something entirely new: allow freelance lawyers to file them on behalf of the government — without asking permission — and collect rich bounties if they manage thereby to extract money from the defendants. Lawyers will recognize this as a qui tam procedure, of the sort that has led to a growing body of litigation filed by freelance bounty-hunters against universities, defense contractors and others alleged to have overcharged the government.

It gets worse. Language on p. 714 of the bill would permit the lawyers to file at least some sorts of Medicare recovery actions based on “any relevant evidence, including but not limited to relevant statistical or epidemiological evidence, or by other similarly reliable means”. This reads very much as if an attempt is being made to lay the groundwork for claims against new classes of defendants who might not be proved liable in an individual case but are responsible in a “statistical” sense. The best known such controversies are over whether suppliers of products such as alcohol, calorie-laden foods, or guns should be compelled to pay compensation for society-wide patterns of illness or injury.
"

http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/07/21/health-care-bill-dodging-the-freelance-lawyers-suing-on-spec/>Hogs at the Trough

[clarice]

Lucianne.Com:

House Committee Health Care Bill Mark-Up Cancelled. Don't Have Enough Votes

[RichatUF]

clarice, wow that's good news. I was about to post that I read something yesterday that Obama wanted to use the reconcilation process to ram Deathcare through. Seems that Obama might be giving up, now to make sure nationalized healthcare is dead as a doornail.

[matt]

One of the other issues in France was that the heat was, as I recall, in August, when the entire country went on vacance, leaving grandmere et grandpapa en la maison to bake.

The French, they are not so empathetique at times.....after all, the beaches of Spain were waiting....

[matt]

does that beg the question, clarice "how many tort lawyers does it take to write a medical bill?"

[Jane]

The amendment would have expanded the Medicare Secondary Payer (MSP) Act, which allows the government to sue to recoup Medicare expenses, for example, from an insurance settlement in the case of an auto accident caused by a negligent driver.

Clarice,

Yeah, that's the one I was referring to.

I could get very rich on that - except I find it rather gross. Essentially a lawyer goes after a third party and litigates him into settling - then takes a third of the take and gives the rest to the government. The government doesn't care because it is found money.

At least that is what I think it is. (And I bet I know a couple of lawyers who are already all over it.) Next up - get the state or Feds to determine which lawyers get the business.

[clarice]

If that's the provision that applied to the hospital I'm thinking of it cost them so much money to redo their billing practices to conform to Medicare's requirements and to settle the suit, I cannot believe it helpoed the patients of the non-profit teaching hospital.

Odd, isn't it, how piranhas win at everyone else's expense.

[Ranger]

Hmmm... Interesting post at Drudge that Obama admitted this morning he really doesn't know what is in the House bill. If true (I can't get the link to open, Drudge probably killed their server with his link) it could mean that Barry has decided he can't take the beating in his approval rating any longer and have any chance at getting anything done, so he is going to try the "I'm shocked, shocked to discover what the House leaders have done in the name of health care reform."

[Jane]

I can't get the link to open either. And I really want to so I can talk about it on the radio at noon.

[clarice]

Ot's online at real clear politics, Jane

And from Michelle Malkin:

We need a Do Not Resuscitate order for the flailing Democrats’ health care takeover plan.

It’s Code Blue and Team Obama is in panic mode.

Certain sign of desperation: Summoning the nutroots to help.

And another from Mark Knoller, who reports that the White House has moved up Obama’s health care statement today to 12:15pm in the Rose Garden.

And now this from Reuters:

The House of Representatives Energy and Commerce Committee has canceled its Tuesday debate and vote on healthcare legislation but has kept a Wednesday meeting on its schedule.

Good. This will give Obama time to study the plan he supports — a plan that he admitted he’s not familiar with when asked about the provision that would effectively kill off the individual insurance market.

(Links at site, including video of Obama admitting he doesn't know what's in the bill)

[clarice]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/07/21/obama_not_familiar_with_key_provision_in_health_care_bill.html>Ibama:I'm not familiar with that provision

[Gabriel Sutherland]

The opposition should take it easy on the gloating.

How do you sink a socialist ship?

Let them do all the talking.

[clarice]

And don't give up the popular pressure..calls, emails, show up at the Congressional get togethers during the recess, let your friends and neighbors know what's in this P.O.S. legislation.

[Ranger]

Ah... After reading the quote I think it is Obama simply having a moment of honesty, and admitting that despite all the talking on Health Care Reform he's been doing, he really doesn't know much about what the House is doing with the bill. It's Obama doing his typical, lazy "You do the work and I'll take the credit" act.

[clarice]

Exactly.Just as he outsourced the stimulus bill to Congress and ended up with a non stimulating porkula Act.

[PeterUK]

"it could mean that Barry has decided he can't take the beating in his approval rating any longer and have any chance at getting anything done, so he is going to try the "I'm shocked, shocked to discover what the House leaders have done in the name of health care reform."

"When Health Care Bill starts getting me down
And people are just too much for me to face
I find some schmuck to take all the blame
And all my cares just drift right into space
Under the bus it's peaceful as can be
And there the world below can't bother me
Let me tell you now"

[Thomas Collins]

If by campaign style Mr. Kaus means the use of fine rhetoric as an aspect of an overall policy that culminates in smashing success, see LUN for the best example.

[Sue]

The amendment would have expanded the Medicare Secondary Payer (MSP) Act, which allows the government to sue to recoup Medicare expenses, for example, from an insurance settlement in the case of an auto accident caused by a negligent driver.

I don't understand. What would it have expanded it to? The government can already sue to recoup Medicare expenses, but usually leaves it up to the attorney working on behalf of the plaintiff to recover the monies and then they (the attorney/Medicare) negotiate, with expenses being allowed 100% and fees negotiated. What am I missing?

[Ranger]

Sue,

As I understand it, this new provision would let lawyers totally unattached to anyone in the original situation to hunt for overpayments.

[PeterUK]

"As I understand it, this new provision would let lawyers totally unattached to anyone in the original situation to hunt for overpayments."

Looks like a good source of income for ACORN.

[Pofarmer]

Even if this gets killed, it will just come back. That's the problem with all these lib schemes, they just repackage them and away they go again.

[DebinNC]

Whoa! Wizbang has some appalling quotes/lies by Obama to lib bloggers about Kill Granny. I almost hope he does try the "reconciliation" route to get it passed, because I believe millions would then take to the streets.

[Sue]

Overpayments? That isn't my understanding of what MSP is. MSP, to my knowledge, merely puts a medical lien on any settlement in a suit that Medicare has expended funds in. How would a lawyer know if Medicare overpaid a doctor? He (the lawyer) would have to have access to my personal medical files and know what Medicare allowed/disallowed, etc. If he isn't my attorney, I won't give him permission to access those files. I think I need to research this more. Or something.

[PeterUK]

From Wizbang.
"The section requires that they talk to their doctor, not a lawyer, about living wills, durable healthcare powers of attorney, hospice, etc. Given the progressive intelligentsia already being on the record in favor of euthanizing the elderly, it is no small leap to see where the Democrats are headed with this.

Legally forcing senior citizens to have "death with dignity schedules every few years is just another way to say the government wants to make sure seniors know it is time to commit suicide to save the system money."

It would make sense then,in these circumstances,that the elderly strap on a bomb and visit their congress critter. May as well take some of the bastards with you.

[Sue]

What is Obama referring to when he says he might have to "go to reconciliation" to get it passed? It is a parliamentary procedure but I'm unfamiliar with it.

[clarice]

Sue, it has to do with billing practices and in essence becomes in its larger menace class action suits going after , say, university teaching hospitals for adding a portion of professor's compensation to the patient's bills.

Ot becomes more odious when the regulations are very arcane and changing.

[RichatUF]

Sue-

Reconciliation (via wiki)

In short, it is a way to short circuit debate and get bills passed on a simple majority.

[jimmyk]

Sue, usually "reconciliation" refers to ironing out differences between House and Senate versions of the bill. But given that Obama doesn't seem particularly familiar with how the legislation process works, who knows what he meant by that?

[Teach your children well, Obama.]

I love it; he's not familiar with the single most devastating provision in the bill. As with many of the trolls, he self demonstrates either incompetence or duplicitousness.

[jimmyk]

Oops, disregard my 12:54, I think Rich as the right interpretation.

[PeterUK]

This is the future under ObamaCare Irrespective of what one thinks of the young fool,there was simply no other option for him with state healthcare.

[RichatUF]

jimmyk-

That would be budget reconciliation. Obama floated the idea early when he released his budget of using that process to get cap-and-trade and healthcare as a package in his FY 2010 budget. One of the things (and maybe this is exposing my nerdishness) I'm curious about is, since those 2 items were critical in his budget, would having both derailed, derail his entire 2010 budget. Could his entire agenda essentially get scraped until 2011?

[DebinNC]

I think he knows precisely what's in the various bills, but it's more politically expedient to feign ignorance and/or speak in generalities...like telling Today this morning, "The plans aren't yet where they need to be" but offering no specifics about what's lacking or what he'll sign other than his lie about requiring "revenue neutrality".

[DebinNC]

from Insty: House Dems divided over "public option". The videos of tea partiers picketing in front of Dems' offices ...and Dems facing jeering constituents who recognize Pelosi! about Kill Granny when they hear it... are having a salutory effect.

[Sue]

say, university teaching hospitals for adding a portion of professor's compensation to the patient's bills.

I still don't see how it would work without access to a patient's medical records. Are they going to make patient's medical records open for everyone to see?

[clarice]

Bill would funnel tax $$ to abortions:
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/health-bill-to-direct-tax-money-to-abortion> Under cover

Sue, let us say that somehow lawyers well aware of the intricacies of the many provisions in the medicare Act (and the present bill) and its regulations know that hospitals are not allowed to charge for services by a non-attending phsyician and further that they know that the normal practice of your and every other teaching hospital is to amortize the cost of the professional oversight and consultation services of the medical school professionals by adding a certain portion to every pateient's bill, they do not have to know what pateint X was charged in order to sue the hospital.

In fact, the overcharge of a single patient for some other reason is barely worth their time. And it's barely worth their time to seek recompense for the govt for most services provided to a single insured patient.

I don't know how else to explain this.

[Jane]

Sue is right tho, whoever pursues this is gonna run into some pretty big HIPAA problems.

[Sue]

I don't know how else to explain this.

You are explaining it fine. It still leaves open how they are going to know what was charged unless they have access to patient medical records. Will the government give access to private medical records in order to allow a lawsuit to go forward?

I haven't actually read anything yet, other than what was posted here. So maybe I'm missing something. What I thought they were talking about is forcing the patient to bring the lawsuit in order to recover the costs in a settlement. At present, you are not required to bring a suit. But heck if I know.

[Sue]

whoever pursues this is gonna run into some pretty big HIPAA problems.

And lawsuits for accessing those medical records without a patient's permission. Maybe they address it in the bill. Maybe it is a right we are losing.

[Sue]

they do not have to know what pateint X was charged in order to sue the hospital.

Okay, that went right past me the first time I read your post. How on earth can they sue on a hypothetical? They would have to prove that the costs have been amortized on every patient's bill and in order to prove it they would have to have access to every patient's medical records. They can't just say we know they do it.

[Sue]

The amendment would have expanded the Medicare Secondary Payer (MSP) Act, which allows the government to sue to recoup Medicare expenses, for example, from an insurance settlement in the case of an auto accident caused by a negligent driver.

This is discussing MSP and expanding it. I'm still going to go with they are going to force the patient to bring a lawsuit instead of merely collecting in the event the patient decides to sue. Or allow the government to sue on behalf of the patient.

[clarice]

They discover that this is the hospital's billing practice(by demanding such info, by chance, by having someone in the billing office, by questioning their own bill--however) and they do this without seeing a single identifiable patient's bill.The billing is automated..all they need to know is the program and the fact that each patient is charged X for Y even though the law or regs forbid that.

[Sue]

Clarice,

I am going to respectfully disagree. Not if they were discussing expanding MSP.

[Sue]

They will not even turn over abortion records with no identifying information on them. They will have to completely overhaul HIPPA if they are going to allow lawyers to sue willy nilly.

[jimmyk]

Rich,
The "reconciliation" from the Wiki article you posted seems to have all sorts of vague requirements, and it allows for just one member of the senate to object, in which case 60 votes are required to overrule the objection. It says that Clinton tried to pull this stunt to get his health care plan passed and Robert Byrd (!) objected.

[clarice]

Patient X to lawyer: I have this charge for Dr Q's fee on my bill but he never saw me. I wrote them and asked why and they said all patients get charged this becuase it's a teaching hospital.
Lawyer:Their response says they charge this of all patients. Subsection 329(B)(1)(a) makes that illegal--Yacht club here I come.

[Sue]

I wrote them and asked why and they said all patients get charged this becuase it's a teaching hospital.

Without all of the medical billings, they can't prove this is charged to all patients. All the teaching hospital would have to do is say they erred in their letter, they aren't billing everyone just this one person this one time in error and you are down to a single person which you said was not worth it.

But I'm not a lawyer so what the heck do I know? I was sure the bankruptcy judge wouldn't allow GM/Chrysler to kick their secured creditors in the behind.

[clarice]

Well, perhaps. But I think that wouldn't work. The complaint would say on information and belief the hospital regularly bills all patients such and such amount for such and such services in violation of the law.Attached to the complaint would be the letter from the hospital and an affidavit from the recipient attesting that this was received by him from the hospital.
Discovery would begin ASAP and any effort to lie in the course of it would not be kindly received by the Court.

[Neo]

A Catalan newspaper is reporting that Honduran authorities have seized computers found in the Presidential Palace belonging to deposed president Mel Zelaya. Taking a page right out of the leftist dictator's handbook, these computers, according to the news report, contained the official and certified results of the illegal constitutional referendum Zelaya wanted to conduct that never took place. The results of this fraudulent vote was tilted heavily in Zelaya's favor, ensuring he could go ahead and illegally change the constitution so he could remain in power for as long as he wanted to. ACORN, I'm sure, is taking notes.

[Sue]

Discovery would begin ASAP and any effort to lie in the course of it would not be kindly received by the Court.

What discovery? They won't be able to access medical billings without patient permission. And how could they find out who the patients are without permission from the patient? Maybe advertise in local papers around the hospitals for patients to come forward?

But they could go down to the local courthouse and pull all of the medicare liens, which are public record, and begin lawsuits on behalf of the government for those liens that have not been released.

[matt]

The Politico is reporting that Obama is now blaming the Republicans for his problems with the health care bill. Gee, how does that work?

He controls both houses and the Dem's are tearing at each other while the Republicans look on, excluded from the process. The most post partisan president ever!

On another topic, Role Call tells us that the lobbyists on K Street are having a field day with all the new legislation raking in the loot and slicing off as much pork as they can steal.

[clarice]

They could access the programs used to prepare the bills, Sue. As to how much was overcharged I suppose it might be possible to extract that from the computations without every disclosing a patient's identity. Let's say for argument's sake, the tithe to the professors was .05% of the total service charge. (Remember this is just theoretical.) The hospital records could cull what the total service charge for all patients was in the period and a simple calculation would give you the overcharge.

Remember, we are talking illegal patterns and pratices not single overcharges to specific patients.

[clarice]

Sue--I am not talking about recovering on medicare liens--that's comparatively small potatoes. I'm talking about billing practices that violate the arcane laws and regulations governing hospital charges.

[Sue]

Clarice,

I know what you are talking about. I don't see how they could proceed without the medical billings.

I am talking about medicare liens because the article you posted talked about them. And the third party defendant would be the person who caused the injury.

[DrJ]

I'm surprised the teaching hospitals bill the supervising Prof's salary portion directly to the patient. It is an overhead expense: why not bill it as such? That way it can be buried into the Motrin and whatnot costs. And actually it would be appropriate.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

My understanding, from a thread at Instapundit or Patterico was that lawyers were being given standing to collect from third (or actually fourth parties) on behalf of the government.
Say there is an accident, and Medicare pays the hospital. Currently Medicare has to go find the negligent driver and sue him on their own dime.
Apparently this clause allows lawyers, on their own, to go out on fishing expeditions looking for anyone who may have caused medicare to incur a cost and sue them to recover on behalf of the government.

[Sue]

Ignatz,

That is what I figured it meant, but Clarice has about half convinced me otherwise.

[Sue]

Dr. J,

I think Clarice was merely using that as a hypothetical to explain to me why they wouldn't need the medical billings.

[clarice]

There's that, ignatz..but there's another proviso that permits people to use the medicare Act to sue institutions which have overcharged the govt..a provision which (a) I understand has allowed people to clean up in suits like the one I've described(b) caused hospitals endless tsuris and sums of money to comply with vague and arcane regs and (c) will be carried over into the healthcare Act where even larger sums and more litigation can be involved.

[Jane]

Maybe it is a right we are losing.

Sue,

I really don't look at HIPAA as a right but more of a debacle, but I wouldn't for one second trust this president to get rid of it, because he would probably replace it with legislation that gives him the right to cut off a few of your limbs if he sees fit.

And FWIW I think Ignatz has it right - but I am a notoriously bad reader.

[DrJ]

I think Clarice was merely using that as a hypothetical

Ah. It has been a while since the original problem statement.

[clarice]

Here is the language from the article I posted on he prior page about qui tam proceedings and how an effort is being made to expand them under the healthcare bill:

"The newly added language in the Thursday morning version of the health bill (for those following along, it’s Section 1620 on pp. 713-721) would greatly expand the scope of these suits against third parties, while doing something entirely new: allow freelance lawyers to file them on behalf of the government — without asking permission — and collect rich bounties if they manage thereby to extract money from the defendants. Lawyers will recognize this as a qui tam procedure, of the sort that has led to a growing body of litigation filed by freelance bounty-hunters against universities, defense contractors and others alleged to have overcharged the government.

It gets worse. Language on p. 714 of the bill would permit the lawyers to file at least some sorts of Medicare recovery actions based on “any relevant evidence, including but not limited to relevant statistical or epidemiological evidence, or by other similarly reliable means”. This reads very much as if an attempt is being made to lay the groundwork for claims against new classes of defendants who might not be proved liable in an individual case but are responsible in a “statistical” sense. The best known such controversies are over whether suppliers of products such as alcohol, calorie-laden foods, or guns should be compelled to pay compensation for society-wide patterns of illness or injury.
"

[Sue]

I really don't look at HIPAA as a right but more of a debacle

Okay, poor choice of words on my part, but still, it is the law at the moment.

And FWIW I think Ignatz has it right

Am I not saying the same thing? Only not as well?