Send Better Rebutals (Ongoing...)

Dave Weigel reports that the McCain campaign looked at and dismissed the notion that a lawsuit challenging Obama's citizenship would be successful.  The primary problem was that the plaintiffs lacked standing; however, the McCain people also claimed to have pondered the substance of the case (my emphasis):

“To the extent that we could, we looked into the substantive side of these allegations,” said Potter. “We never saw any evidence that then-Senator Obama had been born outside of the United States. We saw rumors, but nothing that could be sourced to evidence. There were no statements and no documents that suggested he was born somewhere else. On the other side, there was proof that he was born in Hawaii. There was a certificate issued by the state’s Department of Health, and the responsible official in the state saying that he had personally seen the original certificate. There was a birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser, which would be very difficult to invent or plant 47 years in advance.”

Grr - even the inestimable Captain Ed went along with the birth announcement notion back in July 2008 when Dave Weigel (then of Reason) floated it.

My point, then and recently - Barack's mom and maternal grandparents had a strong incentive to create a paper trail documenting Obama as a US citizen back in 1961 and it had nothing to do with assuring his future viability as a Presidential candidate.  Alll they needed to do was imagine a day when the white Ms. Dunham would be engaged in a custody fight in a Kenyan court contesting the fate of a black Kenyan baby sought by the black Kenyan father and his African family, and their course would have been clear.

As to faking the birth certificate?  The short form certificate that has been presented to the public is only described by Hawaiin law as an accurate summary of the long form; since the short form says Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, presumably the long form says the same thing.

However!  The short form contains no information about the hospital or attending physician that delivered Barack, as would appear on the long form.  And it seems to have been the case that the Stae of Hawaii would issue a long form certificate on the basis of simply a parental affidavit.

So - suppose that Obama's long form certificate, which he has diligently refused to release, contians no information about a hospital or doctor but simoply nbotes that Obama was born at home, based on an affidavit.  Obviously that would not prove that he was in fact born elsewhere, but I suspect eyebrows would be raised.

Ah, well - neither the McCain nor Clinton camps pushed this, but there is always 2012!

HUH?  Dave Weigel delivers a non-sequitur of a "rebuttal":

The problem with this? Parents and relatives don’t, and didn’t, get to place birth announcements in the Honolulu Advertiser or the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. As a Star-Bulletin employee explained to WorldNetDaily, the editors “print what we receive from the Department of Health Vital Statistics System,” and did so in 1961. And the Advertiser worked the same way.

Unsurprisingly, WorldNetDaily used that information to argue that the state could have had bogus information that it passed on to the newspaper, which is absurd on its face. But it really should be enough to debunk this “Obama’s grandparents lied to win a future custody suit” theory.

Well, a false affidavit that produced a birth certificate would also produce a birth announcement, apparently, so Mr. Weigel has debunked nothing.  But part of the problem is that Mr. Weigel is apparently confused (willfully or otherwise) about my theory, which he summarizes as "Obama’s grandparents lied to win a future custody suit".  My point is not that they did in fact lie; my point is that they had a clear motive to lie in 1961 which had nothing to do with a possible Presidential run decades later. 

The McCain strategist was dubious about their motive; I supplied one.  But any fan of crime fiction knows that the holy trinity of crime is motive, means and opportunity.  I am satisfied (and Mr. Weigel has not attempted to rebut) the notion that the Dunhams had a clear motive to fraudulently document Baby Barack as an American; I am far from clear as to whether they had the means and the opportunity.

Maybe discussing this in the context of Barack Obama causes too great an emotional burden for some people to discuss it rationally, so let's try a different example.  I, Tom Maguire, have a clear and compelling motive to kidnap Melinda Gates and hold her for, Bwa Ha Ha, One Million Dollars ransom - not only would the money be nice but I also am stuck with Vista on my new laptop.

So, having established my motive, should we worry that Ms. Gates has in fact been kidnapped?  Relax - I didn't do it.

And should Dave Weigel explain that, since, I didn't actually kidnap her, that proves I had no motive to do so?  Well, on his current performance he might, but it would make no sense.

Comments

[bad]

Well,Well,Well....

[Thomas Collins]

Well, I am not going to rehash my views that (i) at this point the matter is nonjusticiable and (ii) it serves no political purpose at this point to attack Obama on this (especially in light of his implosion on Gatesgate, Socialized Medicine and Emissions Taxes). What TM's latest post on this does point out, however, is that the Natural Born Citizen requirement has constant potential for mischief (I believe, in this regard, that questions were also raised as to whether McCain's being born in the Canal Zone disqualified him as a putative POTUS). It's time to have a constitutional amendment repealing this requirement, and imposing a requirement only that the POTUS be a US citizen while serving as POTUS. As to the loyalty issue, my experience has been that immigrants who become citizens are in general far more enthusiastic about the American Way than many born here.

[Martin]

What about the fact the mother was an American citizen? It renders the whole "where" thing moot, right?

Are do you contend he's faking the family thing too?

This is so boring and stupid.

[Grieving Voter]

Please, PLEASE go there.

Its gonna be fun watching the bloody paper trail of the Republican Party.

[KJ]

Maybe Barack's long form Birth certificate will have information on whether Sarah Palin is really Trig's mom. Consider my eyebrows raised.

[clarice]

I smell trolls.

[MayBee]

Lou Dobbs had a Congressman on who has proposed legislature requiring candidates for President must provide evidence they meet the constitutional demands for the office.

He said both Goldwater and McCain had to deal with accusations they were ineligible, so there is a history of people having concern about the issue.

I think it is a fantastic, sensible idea. Who could oppose it?

[Porchlight]

Seems pretty reasonable to me, MayBee.

[GMax]

Has Kerry every released his file? What is it with Democrats and not releasing files that would make issues just go away?

It like there is something to hide, even if its not the issue being pursued.

[Jane]

I'm with Clarice, I think there is something else that they are hiding, not the circumstance of his birth - that the BC would lead to. How did he travel to Pakistan when Americans were not allowed there - did he at one point revoke his citizenship - some thing like that.

The best part of the whole thing is that it makes liberals heads explode. The same people who embraced truthism like it was the Rosetta stone, are working overtime to discredit an investigation that they say they don't fear.

[Thomas Collins]

Well, if we're going down this road again, we might as well have the text. See below.

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

[royf]

It cracks me up how when something like this gets posted all the "concern trolls" come flying out to protect Republicans from themselves.

Just like how everyday I read another news article about how Sarah Palin is finished and its just as good since she is stupid like Booosh!

[Appalled]

Um, TM -- you are following Dan Rather and Andy Sullivan down the road to madness with this one.

The problem with your theory is that you envision the recently married Ms. Obama both contemplating going with her husband to Kenya (the thing a woman IN LOVE would do) and at the same time anticipating that her husband would steal her baby away (the thing a woman IN LOVE would NOT do).

There are some things in the early Obama history that feeds the nonsense -- mostly that nobody seems to know what hospital he was born at. But, under any standard of law, the birth certificate provides eidence of native birth, which can only be rebutted by, you know, hard evidence.

So, muttering about the birth certificate is fine. Not persuasive. But, fine.

[matt]

Kerry never did release his DD-214. As to Obama, it seems irrelevant now. Supporting documents, etc. The birth notice in the paper. Good enough for government work.

I agree with Jane. there is a parretn of his covering up what would seem to be legitimate, normal documentation. College grades, sources of the income to pay tuition, that kind of stuff. Heck, they even tried to keep his Annenberg Challenge documentation sealed. If there's nothing to worry about, why the secrecy?

Apparently he regrets the "obsession" over his comments on the Gates case. He should have kept his mouth shut in the first place. One more instance of poor judgment. Set it right next to the Churchill bust and Brown's DVD's and mea culpas. What a tool.

[William Teach]

IMO, Obama is a natural born citizen till proven otherwise. That said, I find it very strange that someone would fight so hard, and pay so much, to keep from having to pay $10 to get an actual copy of his birth certificate, available quite easily from the State of Hawaii.

What has been released was simply a Certification of Live Birth, printed in 2006, which showed up first on the Daily Kosbat.

Again, i think he is a natural citizen till proven otherwise. I do not get into all the strange conspiracies and such. But, why is it too much to ask for a copy? Heck, let him show it to Justice Roberts. I'll be satisfied.

Remember, though, the NY Times made a big deal with a post in Feb 2008 "just wondering" if McCain was eligible to become president, since he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. They never even answered the question (he is, though.) Imagine he was elected: anyone think that the Left wouldn't be challenging him on this point?

[Just the facts]

1. The grandparents could have also planted it simply as a keepsake.

2. MSM reporters have tried to throw up dust, but no one has even shown that the announcements could have only come from the birth hospital.

3. I sent "Captain Ed" an email informing him that his 12/04/08 post on this contained two major errors. He wrote back and said he didn't want to get into a debate about "Birther theories". Except, the "theories" he was referring to are actually Hawaiian state laws.

4. If someone says this issue shouldn't be explored, one reason might be that they aren't smart enough to figure out how it can be used to discredit the MSM. To do that, all you have to do is tell the truth. "HE WAS BORN IN KENYA!" is not the truth, unless you have solid proof of that. The truth is that he still hasn't provided definitive proof of where he was born. And, the MSM and their little helpers have constantly lied, misled, and twisted themselves into knots trying to prove something that's supposedly cut-and-dried. That includes Weigel, who outright made things up a couple days ago on MSNBC.

5. For the facts about this matter - no speculation, no tinfoil hat theories - see my extensive coverage at my name's link.

6. If you want to do something about this, find major sites discussing this and show how they're wrong in their comments sections. You can see me doing that at, for instance:
mediamatters.org/press/releases/200907230028 It would be great if others could help out even with just a comment here or there.

[royf]

Of course they would be WT except in that case the media would be involved with both feet.

[his birth records are probably on page 9,753 of the Stimulate the Stabilization of the Economy by Eliminating Electricity to Save Our Health Act, but who would know?]

you envision the recently married Ms. Obama both contemplating going with her husband to Kenya (the thing a woman IN LOVE would do) and at the same time anticipating that her husband would steal her baby away (the thing a woman IN LOVE would NOT do).

Or, the grandparents (and eventual custodians) envisioned Ms Obama following a husband halfway around the world (the thing she DID DO) and at the same time anticipated Obama I would dump her and move back to Kenya (the thing he DID DO).

There are some things in the early Obama history that feeds the nonsense -- mostly that nobody seems to know what hospital he was born at.

Some people claim we don't know where Obama was born just because we don't know where Obama was born.

But, under any standard of law, the birth certificate provides eidence of native birth
Who is Eligible to Apply for an Amended Certificate of Birth?

As provided by law (HRS §§338-17.7, 338-20.5), the following persons may apply for an amended certificate of birth:

* A person born in the State of Hawaii who already has a birth certificate filed with the Department of Health and

1. has become legally adopted, or
2. has undergone a sex change operation, or
3. a legal determination of the nonexistence of a parent and child relationship for a person identified as a parent on the birth certificate on file has been made, or
4. previously recorded information in relation to the person’s surname and/or the father’s personal particulars has been altered pursuant to law.

* A person born in a foreign country who has been legally adopted in the State of Hawaii.

[MayBee]

Um, TM -- you are following Dan Rather and Andy Sullivan down the road to madness with this one.

The way I remember it, Dan Rather was left with most Democrats believing he had an accurate story, even though his documentation was (ahem) flawed.

I wonder how many Democrats believe to this day that George Bush went AWOL and was hated/coddled by his TANG commanders? I'll bet it's close to 90%.

[jill]

Guys, was his mother a U.S. Citizen, or not? That is the only question available here. If she was a U.S. Citizen, then so is he, regardless of where he was birthed. Any of my seed, or your seed, would be citizens, as well, regardless of their location in the universe at birth. The fact that he hates Amerikka is tertiary to his citizenship status...

[MayBee]

Really? Seed?

[Rob Crawford]

In any case, it's a moot point. He's in office, and short of tragedy, farce, or his own ignorance, he's not leaving until at least 2012.

Now, laws requiring future candidates demonstrate their eligibility -- those are worth discussing.

[Ken Ferguson]

It's time we liberals admitted it.

Barack Obama is indeed an alien.

He was born in Remulac, a small town in France. His mother's name is Beldar, his mother's name is Prymaat, and his sister is named Connie.

There! It's out in the open now! Are you satisfied?

[royf]

No joke MayBee your absolutely right, And they still believe it. Even though quite a number of people who were witness to GWBs day in TANG actually came forward with testimony supporting his Honorable Service, He also released all his records including his dd214.

And who do they believe? Ben Barnes who is not only a crook who was forced into retirement but who is also a mental case. Yeah they are really the bedrock of rational dialogue.

[Obama's a puppet, so we hit at the puppetteer]

It's not a moot point, but not because there's any chance of Obama being forced from office over the issue of his issue. The birth cert is an clear example of something the press should have investigated; the fact that it's still a question is evidence of the press falling down on the job.

[ben]

"What about the fact the mother was an American citizen? It renders the whole "where" thing moot, right?""

Guys, was his mother a U.S. Citizen, or not? That is the only question available here. If she was a U.S. Citizen, then so is he, regardless of where he was birthed."

Sorry, wrong on both counts. U.S. citizenship is not enough, even if you have citizenship from birth as a result of having parents who are U.S. citizens. In others words, if your mother gives birth to you while your parents vacation in Italy you are not eligible to be President even though you are a U.S. citizen. The only reason McCain was eligible was because the Canal Zone was a U.S. territory.

[JayC]

Don't you see? It's all so obvious.

Obama can't show his birth certificate because on the back of it is a map to the National Treasure.

Leave it alone!

[ben]

"Now, laws requiring future candidates demonstrate their eligibility -- those are worth discussing."

Uh, actually the current law does specify the requirements to be President.

[boris]

I say it IS important for the public to know if their prezindebt is a crypto cipher con artist even if removal is not plausible.

[MayBee]

Ben- there is a law requiring one to *demonstrate* eligibility? What is it, and how is it done?

[ben]

Ah yes, here we go, Obama regrets distraction # 1457

"I think he would regret if he realized how much of a overall distraction and obsession it would be," White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters.

So he does not regret it, but he would regret it if he realized how big a distraction it would be. But, no, it's not about HIM, ever.

[boris]

"gives birth to you while your parents vacation in Italy you are not eligible to be President"

My (limited) understanding is that's conditional on the age of the mom and nationality of the dad.

[jimmyk]

Uh, actually the current law does specify the requirements to be President.

Uh, yes, but nothing about what proof is sufficient. Employers apparently have very specific requirements regarding proof of employment eligibility--what documents are valid under what circumstances.

[narciso]

Like I've said before, it's not a
particularly productive path to pursue, that being said. I wouldn't trust the McCain campaign to shop for eggs and milk, much less more elaborate strategems. The fact that he would appoint the likes of Van Jones, or John Holdren is deeply disturbing
enough as it these ephemeral allegations are

[ben]

"My (limited) understanding is that's conditional on the age of the mom and nationality of the dad."

You are not eligible for President. What happens if your Dad is not a U.S. citizen is that in order to maintain your U.S. citizenship you would have a residency requirement, you would have to live 5 years in the U.S. before age 28 to keep it. But if both parents are U.S. citizens there is no residency requirement, you are a U.S. citizen for life. You just can't be President. However, there is some opinion that it could be challenged in court on the grounds that if both your parents are U.S. citizens you could be considered ä "natural born citizen". But in any event it would not apply to Obama since his father was not a U.S. citizen. If he was not born in the U.S. he would be definitely ineligible.

[Porchlight]

Just to run with an idea here, if your mother gives birth to you while your parents are vacationing in Italy, and your grandparents put a birth announcement in the newspaper in New York City (where both they and your parents live), would that be proof that you were born in New York City?

[The New York Times in Bizarro World]

I think he would regret if he realized

WHITE HOUSE: PRESIDENT OUT OF TOUCH, UNAWARE OF EFFECT OF HIS STATEMENTS

-What the 25th Amendment says
-President's stupor a result of long-term drug abuse?
-Related: Adderol included in monster health care bill

[ben]

"would that be proof that you were born in New York City?"

No, but so far that birth announcement is the strongest anecdotal evidence Obama was born in Hawaii, since nobody has since a complete and original birth certificate. I tend to agree it is strong evidence, its hard to believe a conspiracy at that time, but it certainly it is not official proof.

[ben]

Nobody has seen a complete and original birth certificate I mean.

[Mark O]

No mention of a grassy knoll? Gassy troll?

What about Elvis and JFK in that Dallas area hospital, top floor? Maybe the real "not birth certificate" is there, too.

Only Arlen Spector has a magic bullet.

[Just the facts]

Lots of really brilliant comments after mine. You can discuss N.B.C. rules til you're blue in the face, but it isn't going to make a bit of difference: the MSM is going to ridicule you or ignore you. Do you understand that?

So, what that means is that in order to find out what's really going on with this issue, you have to a) stop the MSM from ridiculing/ignoring you, and b) get the MSM to do real reporting. They have the resources, and people will talk to them rather than shining them on.

OK, so how do you do that?

Well, you do what I'm doing in my so far Quixotic quest: show that the MSM is lying about this issue. You have to deliver a hit to their credibility and force them to do what you want.

So, if the actual BHO opponents could simply concentrate on the fact that the MSM has lied about this issue and could concentrate on doing that in an effect way, this issue might break once they realized their credibility is on the line.

In order to do that, you have to tell the truth and only the truth. No speculation, no legal arcana, etc. You can save that for later. For now, simply concentrate on the truth.

[Porchlight]

ben,

I guess what I'm getting at is that the birth announcement doesn't say he was born in Hawaii, it says he was born to parents who live in Honolulu. We already know they lived in Honolulu, we just don't know - officially - where they were when Ann gave birth to Obama.

To be honest, I personally believe he was born in Hawaii. I just don't think the newspaper announcement is very strong evidence of that, though you might be right that it's the best evidence short of the complete birth certificate.

I'm with the folks who think there is something else being hidden, possibly related to his Pakistan trip and the passport he traveled on, or his admittance to Occidental. That may be why he is hiding all his records, not just the birth certificate.

[Gerald]

Tried a trackback but it did not seem to work.

In Defense of Birthers

[ben]

Porch I agree that there must be some reason they won't produce the complete form, and it isn't because "they want to make Republicans look bad for pursuing it".

[PeterUK]

An important consideration is that Obama has vulnerability.If there is anything out there which is a major embarrassment,it is certain that countries hostile to America will be looking for it,if someone does not have documentation now.

Obama is going to look stupid in any future negotiations if the opposition slides an manilla envelope across the table.Obama should not be surprised,it is after all,the Chicago way.

[Parking Lot]

((One more instance of poor judgment. ))

It was an unscripted Joe the Plumber moment where we saw 0's real thinking processes, unvarnished by the phoney baloney.

[JM Hanes]

ben:

"But if both parents are U.S. citizens there is no residency requirement, you are a U.S. citizen for life. You just can't be President."

I'd be interested in knowing where you think that prohibition can be found, because I believe it's quite wrong. The absolute definition of a "natural born" citizen remains an outstanding question. By tradition, anyone born on American soil is a natural U.S. citizen regardless of parentage, and so by your lights, the child of an illegal alien could be President, while the child born of two U.S. citizens traveling abroad could not.

Thomas Collins:

"As to the loyalty issue, my experience has been that immigrants who become citizens are in general far more enthusiastic about the American Way than many born here."

This hardly seems like the place for generalizing, but this observation also presumes that dropping the natural born citizen requirement would have no effect on who might then decide to immigrate to these shores, and for what purposes. In any case, it's not as though we suffer from a paucity potential candidates who already meet constitutional muster.

I will not rehash the issue of who (nobody) does, in fact, have standing to challenge a candidate's credentials, and in what venue (nowhere).

[sylvia]

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President"

Well what is the technical difference between natural born citizen and citizen. Someone would have to look up the meanings back in 1776.

I would assume natural born citizen means someone who is born here but perhaps in the old days, in the frontier or such, didn't have any offical papers to back them up. Citizen would be the standard definition.

Now I wish someone would post the citizen rules again. But from what I remember if one of Obama's parents was a citizen, and she fullfilled her residency requirements and lived here for most of her young life like Obama's mother did, then it doesn't MATTER WHERE Obama was born.

Now was Obama's mother a citizen? Was she born in Canada or something? After all they lived near the border in Seattle. Maybe they had cheaper medical care there. That might be something, although doubtful.

Another thing to wonder is, was Obama also considered a dual Kenyan citizen since his father was Kenyan? What are the Kenyan citizen requirements. The thing I'm wondering is if Obama's stepfather revoked Obama's American citizenship in order to get him into Indonesia and into, in those days, anti-American schools there, and kept his Kenyan citizenship for him. Maybe Obama's mom went through an anti-American period and swore that she and he and her son would never to return to the US. If that happened, we would have to look up what would be the process that would happen here. Would your birth certificate be removed and altered perhaps?

[JM Hanes]

It is funny, and perhaps revealing, that nothing brings out the trolls faster than a discussion of Obama's birth certificate. There's probably a dedicated crew over at Organizing for America assigned to Google the web daily.

[Danube of Thought]

The burden is clearly on those who content Obama is not a US citizen to produce some evidence that he isn't, and I sure haven't seen any.

A little bit about the law involved:

--The first clause of the 14th amendment defines a class of citizen whose citizenship cannot be altered by any federal statute or state. That class is quite certainly "natural born," but that does not mean that those who do not fall with that clause cannot also be natural born (that is, the clause is by no means exclusive).

--The most widely accepted (and sensible) definition of "natural born" is "a citizen at the time of birth," which of course can be satisfied by means other than being born on U.S. soil.

--If you're born while your parents, both US citizens, are on vacation in Italy, you're a US citizen. See Title 8 United States Code Section 1401.

--The provision for citizenship on the basis of one U.S. citizen parent only (along with certain requirements applicable to the other parent) applies to persons born after November 14, 1986.

--The provision applicable to McCain (born to US citizens while stationed abroad) was not enacted until after he was born. Although it's never been adjudicated, I would bet my bottom dollar that a court would apply the law retroactively to conclude that McCain was a citizen at birth and thus was eligible.

[Danube of Thought]

What is the evidence that (a) the long-form certificate still exissts, and (b) that Obama has it in his possession?

[sylvia]

And on the long bc form, would it note that Obama's father was Kenyan and that Obama has dual citizenship? I would guess that dual citizenship is listed. Maybe Obama did not want to be seen as a "dual citizen" because he was afraid that that would make him look like a less red blooded American, and thus open him up to non natural born charges.

[bolitha]

Let's not, as conservatives, go there. It smacks of desperation, Now, there are more than enough things for the Republicans to "go for" ie the health care pitiful plan and the things O said re the "stupidity" of the policeman in Cambridge.

[Danube of Thought]

Re the parents vacationing in Italy:

"The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

....

"(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;..."

[Original MikeS]

Obama seems to think that releasing his birth certificate or his college transcripts are acts that are beneath him. These are small things that he could do almost effortlessly, yet he refuses. That offends me.

When I moved from California to Nevada, my California DL was not considered good enough ID to get a Nevada license. I had to show my birth certificate. When I went to work for Boeing in California in the 1990s, I had to show either my birth certificate or my DD-214 to prove my citizenship under right to work laws. Why the hell doesn't Obama have to show anyone his birth certificate?

[ben]

and so by your lights, the child of an illegal alien could be President, while the child born of two U.S. citizens traveling abroad could not.""

That is quite correct, and its not by my lights. A child of an illegal alien born in the U.S. is a natural born citizen.

[Porchlight]

"The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

Yes, DoT, but are such persons considered "natural-born citizens"? I think that is the question.

I have no personal knowledge of the law, but others have indicated that the Italy situation would be problematic for someone who wanted to become President.

[Danube of Thought]

Porchlight, I don't think it would be problematic at all. The term "natural born" is nowhere defined in the constitution, and it appears only in Article II and nowhere else.

The first clause of the 14th Amendment was written almost eighty years later, and it gives no indication that it was attempting to clarify or limit the term "natural born" in any way. Given the purpose of the requirement (if it has any remaining purpose at all), it's very clear that the term would be construed as "a citizen at the time of birth."

[ben]

JM
This link supports the view that children born abroad of parents who are BOTH U.S. citizens can be considered "natural born" but that is not an unanimous view.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17485112/The-Conclusive-Definition-of-Natural-Born-Citizen

[sylvia]

Here's something interesting from Wiki on Dual Citizenship related to multiple passports and security clearances. Could the fact that Obama used his Kenyan/British passport in Indonesia gave him security clearance problems?:

"However, exercising (taking advantage of the entitlements of) a non-U.S. citizenship can cause problems. For example, possession and/or use of a foreign passport is a condition disqualifying from security clearance and "... is not mitigated by reasons of personal convenience, safety, requirements of foreign law, or the identity of the foreign country" as is explicitly clarified in a Department of Defense policy memorandum which defines a guideline requiring that "... any clearance be denied or revoked unless the applicant surrenders the foreign passport or obtains official permission for its use from the appropriate agency of the United States Government".[10]

This guideline has been followed in administrative rulings by the United States Department of Defense (DoD) Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals (DOHA) office of Industrial Security Clearance Review (ISCR), which decides cases involving security clearances for Contractor personnel doing classified work for all DoD components. In one such case, an administrative judge ruled that it is not clearly consistent with U.S. national interest to grant a request for a security clearance to an applicant who was a dual national of the U.S. and Ireland.[11]"

[ben]

So we can summarize and say that a U.S. citizen is anyone who acquires it from birth or is naturalized. A natural born citizen is someone born in the U.S. or its possessions or under a wider interpretation not clear in the Constitution someone who is born abroad of parents who are BOTH U.S. citizens one of whom has been a resident of the U.S.

So Obama is a natural born citizen if he was born in Hawaii, and is not if he was born abroad.

[Porchlight]

Thanks, DoT. Well, at any rate, both of Obama's parents were not U.S. citizens, so the Italy scenario doesn't apply to him.

It seems the founders wanted to prevent dual loyalties among other things. I'd guess the question is going to be adjudicated eventually, maybe sooner rather than later.

[WestWright]

JM Hanes, the trolls are rare, IMO on JMO and it is interesting as how nothing brings out the trolls faster than a discussion of Obama's birth certificate...maybe it is the same reason tha da trolls flutter on S. Palin threads....with the billions of $'s going thru Acorns hands, the daxx trolls may start buying up the whole Innerwebs!

[Danube of Thought]

Way off topic and lengthy, but this excerpt from the Hill makes delightful reading:

"'I’ve been lied to,' Blue Dog Coalition Co-Chairman Charlie Melancon (D-La.) said on Friday. 'We have not had legitimate negotiations.

“'Mr. Waxman has decided to sever discussions with the Blue Dogs who are trying to make this bill work for America,' Melancon said.

"Although those Blue Dogs were supposed to be headed back into another meeting of the Energy and Commerce Democrats, their anger was visible.

"If the two sides cannot reach an agreement, the only hope for passage of the bill in the House will be to go straight to the floor, an option leaders shied away from endorsing but said was an option.

"But the Blue Dogs issued dire warnings to leaders contemplating that approach.

"'Waxman simply does not have votes in committee and process should not be bypassed to bring the bill straight to floor,' Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.), the lead Blue Dog negotiator, said on Friday. 'We are trying to save this bill and trying to save this party.'

"Melancon said there would be 40-45 'solid no' votes from the 52-strong Blue Dogs, among other problems throughout the caucus. And Melancon said there are more Democrats who will vote against the bill.

“'If they try to bring it to the floor, I think they’ll find out they have more problems than the Blue Dogs.'”

[William Teach]

--If you're born while your parents, both US citizens, are on vacation in Italy, you're a US citizen. See Title 8 United States Code Section 1401.

Yes, you are a citizen, but, not a natural born one. Therefore, not entitled to be President. However, if you are born to 2 illegal alien parents in, say, Colorado, you are a natural born citizen.

--The provision applicable to McCain (born to US citizens while stationed abroad) was not enacted until after he was born. Although it's never been adjudicated, I would bet my bottom dollar that a court would apply the law retroactively to conclude that McCain was a citizen at birth and thus was eligible.

The base McCain's parents were stationed at was considered, by law prior to his birth, to be the legal property of the USA, meaning that any child born on that property, except to parents of which either is a foreign diplomat, would automatically be considered "natural born." This same thing applied to Guam and several other US properties, as well. Interestingly, it did not apply to all US military bases or embassies, even though they were considered "US soil."

Being a citizen at birth doesn't make one eligible, just makes them a citizen. For natural born, you must be born within the 50 US states or certain recognized, by law, areas. If mommy and daddy, both of whom were born in Idaho, have little Johnny while visiting Italy, little Johnny is a US citizen, but, can never be president.

Regardless, Obama is a natural born citizen in my eyes, till someone offers proof to the contrary. Real proof. But, it still makes me wonder why he fights so hard to not release a copy of his actual BC.

[Danube of Thought]

"A San Francisco federal judge ruled late Tuesday that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's claim of U.S. citizenship is strong enough that a lawsuit challenging his placement on the California ballot should be dismissed. William Alsup of the Northern District of California ruled in the case of Robinson v. Bowen, filed by an elector pledged to third-party candidate Alan Keyes seeking an injunction to keep McCain off the November ballot. Two other challenges claiming that McCain's birthplace in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 disqualifies him under the Constitution have been dismissed on standing grounds. But Alsup evaluated the merits of the claim in a hearing last week and in this order issued Sept. 16.

"Reviewing pertinent statutes including one passed in 1937 on Canal Zone citizenship, Alsup found that "persons in Senator McCain's circumstances are citizens by virtue of their birth, thereby retroactively rendering Senator McCain a natural born citizen, if he was not one already. This order finds it highly probable, for the purposes of this motion for provisional relief, that Senator McCain is a natural born citizen. Plaintiff has not demonstrated the likelihood of success on the merits necessary to warrant the drastic remedy he seeks."

William Teach, do you have any authority for the proposition that in order to be "natural born" a citizen must have been born on US soil? I have never found any at all.

[Pat Curley]

The Pakistan trip is a canard; there was no ban on travel to Pakistan by US citizens.

I am disappointed to see that Tom is apparently pushing his own version of the Birther story; I have always found this blog one of the more sensible ones.

If Obama's mother was really concerned about losing custody of her baby, why would she have it in Kenya? It seems obvious that would create additional risk of losing the child.

[bad]

What if the grandparents were just trying to make their wayward daughter seem more conventional (respectable) by putting the birth announcement in the paper? They get to make sure people see she was MARRIED at the time of the birth.

[Pofarmer]

What TM's latest post on this does point out, however, is that the Natural Born Citizen requirement has constant potential for mischief (I believe, in this regard, that questions were also raised as to whether McCain's being born in the Canal Zone disqualified him as a putative POTUS).

The difference here is that McCain's situation received a congressional hearing. Obama's situation hasn't received squat. I also tend to agree that the problem might not be in the birth certificate, but in his passports and school info. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he was using Indonesian citizenship for financial aid, and for his trip to Pakistan.

[PeterUK]

Simple really.If the American people can trust Obama to be President and Commander in Chief,then at the very least Obama could do the American people the courtesy of showing them his birth certificate and his academic record.

[Pofarmer]

Oh, and given the general incompetence of McCains campaign. Who would be surprised by them warning off a legitimate avenue of attack?

[Pofarmer]

Let's not, as conservatives, go there. It smacks of desperation,

No, it calls for even handedness. No one is supposed to be above the law in the U.S., and no President should be unanswerable to the people.

[sylvia]

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President"

Well to post that again, the rule says a citizen OR a natural born citizen. Not AND.

Since Obama's mom was a citizen, it doesn't matter where Obama was born as long as she and he fullfulled residency requirements, which they did, because then he would be a citizen. It wouldn't matter then if he was a natural born citizen or not, because it's not AND, it's OR, and he would fullfil one of the clauses.

[sylvia]

The only thing I think it might be is if Obama's stepfather revoked his US citizenship when Obama was a child. If that happened, Obama may have restored it later. However, I am still trying to look up what happens to your birth certificate when you revoke your US citizenship. Is it removed, altered by the Feds somehow?

[JM Hanes]

William Teach:

"Yes, you are a citizen, but, not a natural born one."

You're simply equating "born on U.S. soil" -- which the framers did not, in fact, specify -- with "natural born." Indeed, it makes considerably more sense to distinguish between "natural born" and "naturalized," -- which conform far more closely to the actual wording of the Constitution than any of the other convoluted strictures which have been asserted here.

I frankly think that it is much harder to argue that a child born to two U.S. citizens, regardless of their location at the time, could be anything other than a natural citizen, and I have little doubt that should the residency requirement cited earlier ever actually be tested in court, it would be found unconstitutional in short order.

As for your assertion the little Johnny can never be President, I'd ask you the same question I asked ben. Where precisely is this prohibition supposed to be recorded?

With regard to the recent resolution concerning John McCain, it could only confirm his status as a natural born citizen, it couldn't make him one.

[Monster Mash]

"that nothing brings out the trolls faster than a discussion of Obama's birth certificate."

You think people flock here for accurate info?

JOM is a Magnetometer for the crazies and dipshits who populate the distant right.

We just want to make sure you squeeze every drop of blood from every worthless rock you
scream 'Eureka' over.

'Cause we're just SO afraid you'll suddenly, miraculously gain some traction on your Obama Drangment.

[sylvia]

Here's a good site for citizenship rules. Problem is it talks about current rules too much, not so much about earlier rules in the 1960's. This talks about revoking citizenship which apparently you can do for a child too.

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#possible

Although current US law forbids the government from taking your citizenship from you against your will, it does permit you to give it up voluntarily. This has placed the US State Department in the complex position of determining whether someone who claims to be a US citizen has, in fact, given up that citizenship by his voluntary statements or actions.

In the early days of court-mandated acceptance of dual citizenship, State Department officials (hostile as most of them were to the whole idea of dual citizenship) tended to play hardball with people who claimed dual status, looking for almost any excuse to revoke US citizenship, and frequently ruling that a person had voluntarily forsaken his US ties despite steadfast protestations or even convincing evidence to the contrary. ....

Different rules apply to a child born out of wedlock outside the US. If the mother of an "illegitimate" child is a US citizen, her foreign-born child is a US citizen by birth if she had ever spent at least one year's worth of continuous literal, physical presence in the US.

[JM Hanes]

sylvia:

It doesn't say a natural born citizen or a citizen, it says a natural born citizen or a citizen of the U.S. "at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution."

[sylvia]

I'd have to look it up, but I think it's a good guess that "natural born" was included to include children born on the frontier.

After all this was in the 1700's. Hardly a time when all legal paperwork was organized in every log cabin town in the colonies. That's why I believe the laws never developed to define it, because it became a moot point over time as the US developed.

[the real Semanticleo]

+If you're born while your parents, both US citizens, are on vacation in Italy, you're a US citizen. See Title 8 United States Code Section 1401.+

You are such dumb liars! I doubt if more than a tiny fraction of the 300 million people living in America were born in Italy, at least the ones without garlic noses.

[PeterUK]

"We just want to make sure you squeeze every drop of blood from every worthless rock you
scream 'Eureka' over."

Are you saying Obama is a worthless piece of rock? He is certainly as dumb as one.

[sylvia]

"it says a natural born citizen or a citizen of the U.S. "at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution."

Well since the constitution was adopted in 1776, I'm pretty sure Obama clears the time requirement and was born after that time.

[The Genuine Real Sematicleo]

We've seen the Godfather,all Americans were born in Italy.

[sylvia]

You know now that I think about it the Constitution doesn't make much sense. That's why we shouldn't treat it like some holy bible, but something to take with a grain of salt. Heck you should even take the bible with a grain of salt.

How could you be a US citizen AT the time of the adoption of the constitution, when the United States did not EXIST UNTIL the adoption of the constitution?

[William Teach]

Re: claims of natural born, I would highly suggest those questioning what I wrote take a gander out on the 'net. Many many sources. Whatever I give you will be discounted, so, take a walk on the wild side.

Sylvia, the purpose of that portion of teh constitution was to make anyone who was a citizen of the US at the time, regardless of where they were born, eligible. After that, only natural born were eligible.

[Lesley]

"JOM is a Magnetometer for the crazies and dipshits who populate the distant right."

To echo the title of TM's post: SEND BETTER REBUTALS!

Heh.

[Republican Cheez Whiz]

You mean 'rebuttals'?

We always ready to help.

[narciso]

Sylvia the constitution was adopted in 1789, that provision was designed to present foreigner like royalty to ascend
to the office, It did keep Alexander Hamilton out, because he was born in Bermuda

[Republican Cheez Whiz]

Unless Maguire meant Nembutals.

[sylvia]

"was to make anyone who was a citizen of the US at the time, regardless of where they were born, eligible."

Well how could you be ther citizen of a country that doesn't even exist at that time? It doesn't make sense.

The framers must have meant some other less formal definition of "citizen" at the time. Perhaps at the time, citizen just meant someone who lived in the colonies. Or maybe they had some definition of their own back then, like someone who paid taxes for a certain number of years here or who served in the military here.

Hmmm. Or maybe they used the British definition of a citizen of "the American colonies", whatever that was back then, and thought that was close enough to translate to a US citizen.

[Republican Cheez Whiz]

Would you like to know a good Canadien pharmacy, or has Limbaugh been in touch?

[Lesley]

Re: rebutals v rebuttals

RCW, you are correct. Take it up with the boss (check post title) Heh.

[sylvia]

"Sylvia the constitution was adopted in 1789, that provision was designed to present foreigner like royalty to ascend
to the office,"

Okay, got my dates confused. So there was a 13 year gap from 1776 to 1789 where a person could become a US citizen, where there was an actual US. So what were the requirements between 1776 and 1789 to become a US citizen? Well anyway, in light of that, then I take back my interpretation.

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President"

So this again goes back to the original interpretation. It was US citizens, people declared as such based on whatever requirements they deemed back then between the years of 1776 and 1789, and then from then on, "natural born citizens".

Well according to this reading of it then, it's possible McCain would not have been eligible. He was a citizen but not natural born. Nor would that fictional person born in Italy on vacation.

However, we would have to figure out what the framers specifically meant by "natural born". We would have to investigate the vocabulary and the lingo of the time in 1789. There is actually no good way to interpret that.

Does "natural born" mean born here, or is it some outdated phrase to mean those who are born "naturally" from a citizen.

Something like actually birthed children from US citizens, not adopted children, or step children. I actually think that makes more sense with the language.

In that case, it wouldn't matter where someone was born if their parents were citizens, as long as they were not adopted or step children. So McCain is back on.

I mean, really it is all pretty silly, and I think Congress should take steps to define it with modern language.

[Danube of Thought]

W.Teach, pleas refer us to any support for the argument that one must be born on U.S. soil in order to be a natural-born citizen eligible for the presidency. I am not aware of any. Apparently the fedeal judge who ruled in the McCain case wasn't either.

[Sue]

There is a decree of divorce on file in Honolulu, dated 1964. It lists the date of marriage 6 or 7 months before Obama was born. His mother was pregnant when his parents "married". Whether it was a legal marriage or not, since Sr. already had a wife, is another story. I believe Obama was born in Hawaii. Not because of a nespaper announcement, our newspaper has always relied on parents to provide the information about the birth of their child, the hospital doesn't send it in and the newspaper doesn't check to see if the information is accurate.

I believe Obama was adopted by his stepfather. The court would seal his original birth certificate that showed Obama Sr. as the father. The only BC available to Obama would be the one listing his stepfather as his birth father. The only way to get a copy of the original birth certificate would be to petition to the court to unseal the records. In my scenario, Obama's grandparents retained a copy of his original BC listing Obama as the father and Obama as his name. It is my theory the grandparents used that BC to enroll Obama in school, under his birth name, not the new one issued after his stepfather adopted him, where his name is Barry Soetero. At some point, that original BC has been misplaced (boy, I've thought of everything).

I believe the only long form BC Obama could obtain that showed Obama Sr as his father would present a problem with him, if word leaked out.

And to make my theory a little more believable, when you are adopted, your inheritance rights under the birth parent are terminated. In one of Obama's books, he says that only 1 of Obama Sr's sons was not challenged as a true heir.

That is my theory of what Obama is hiding. Not where he was born. The new BC would actually list the place he was born, just change the name of the father.

[Slobbering Socialist]

Hours before they were to leave office after eight troubled years, George W. Bush and Richard B. Cheney had one final and painful piece of business to conclude. For over a month Cheney had been pleading, cajoling, even pestering Bush to pardon the Vice President's former chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby. Libby had been convicted nearly two years earlier of obstructing an investigation into the leak of a covert CIA officer's identity by senior White House officials. The Libby pardon, aides reported, had become something of a crusade for Cheney, who seemed prepared to push his nine-year-old relationship with Bush to the breaking point — and perhaps past it — over the fate of his former aide. "We don't want to leave anyone on the battlefield," Cheney argued.

Bush had already decided the week before that Libby was undeserving and told Cheney so, only to see the question raised again. A top adviser to Bush says he had never seen the Vice President focused so single-mindedly on anything over two terms. And so, on his last full day in office, Jan. 19, 2009, Bush would give Cheney his final decision. (See pictures of George W. Bush.)

These last hours represent a climactic chapter in the mysterious and mostly opaque relationship at the center of a tumultuous period in American history. It reveals how one question — whether to grant a presidential pardon to a top vice-presidential aide — strained the bonds between Bush and his deputy and closest counselor. It reveals a gap in the two men's views of crime and punishment. And in a broader way, it uncovers a fundamental difference in how the two men regarded the legacy of the Bush years. As a Cheney confidant puts it, the Vice President believed he and the President could claim the war on terrorism as his greatest legacy only if they defended at all costs the men and women who fought in the trenches. When it came to Libby, Bush felt he had done enough.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1912297,00.html

Outstanding piece on the resolute character of GWB, and his one shining moment. Unfortunately, the motivation was self-serving (who woulda thot?) because he feared for his LEGACY.

[Jeff Thompson]

I am reminded of why I stopped reading this blog. It got infected with the stupid. Shame on Memeorandum for pointing me here again. Lesson learned.

[Sue]

motivation was self-serving

I doubt it. He was loathe to issue pardons while governor of Texas.

[Sue]

'Cause we're just SO afraid you'll suddenly, miraculously gain some traction on your Obama Drangment.

Yes, I would hate for his poll numbers to tumble below 50%. Oh wait...

[Republican Cheez Whiz]

"Yes, I would hate for his poll numbers to tumble below 50%"

Too late. August is nigh.