Send Better Rebuttals (Ongoing...)

The always insightful William Jacobson pens on the birthers and manages to irk me with this:

Which gets me to the Obama birth certificate conspiracy theory, to wit, the claim that Obama was not born in the U.S.A., despite the official Hawaiian record of his "live birth" and contemporaneous newspaper announcements. It is this latter evidence that seals the deal for me. Much like the craziness regarding Trig Palin and the ice measurements, to accept that 48 years ago someone had the foresight to plant newspaper stories in anticipation of Barack Hussein Obama becoming president half a century later just isn't credible. As Obama himself has proclaimed, would anyone who wanted him to become President have given him that middle name? If they were so smart as to plant stories in the newspaper, why not give him a name like William Jefferson Obama or George Herbert Walker Obama.

As I have said before, the motive back in 1961 could have been quite different.  Perhaps the mother and maternal grandparents feared for the day when the white Ms. Dunham would be contesting with a black Kenyan man in a Kenyan court for custody of a black Kenyan baby (or British, or whatever Obama's nationality might have been.)  They would have been well advised to take steps to tilt the playing field a bit by documenting their son as a US citizen, irrespective of any Presidential aspirations.  Name the baby 'Barack' in the hope the marriage works out, document the baby as an American in case it doesn't.  [But in a court case, surely the father would squawk about the fraud, yes?  Well, if mom can limit the he-said she said dispute to an American court, where will his witnesses be?  But it's a good point.  That said, in my first post on this I did note other reasons to seek American citizenship.]

Do I think that is the percentage bet?  No.  My official editorial position is that Obama was probably born in Hawaii, but I have not embraced the faith-based initiative currently on offer, especially when more evidence is on file in Hawaii and is surely available to the White House.

That said, I am in broad agreement with the thrust of the Jacobson piece, to wit, this is a distraction that is not helpful to the conservative cause.

And that is my graceful segue to the National Review editorial on this topic, Born in the USA.  Their conclusion that this is a foolish distraction is utterly reasonable but unfortunately they deliver the sort of factual errors that will shatter their credibility with the true believers.  Here we go:

The Hawaiian birth certificate President Obama has produced—the document is formally known as a “certificate of live birth”...

No, it's not - look at the picture again.  It is known as a "Certification of live birth", aka the short form.  A "certificate of live birth" , aka the long form, has more information, such as the hospital and attending physician, and they are no longer routinely provided by the State of Hawaii.  However, old examples are floating about the internet and Hawaiian officials have said repeatedly that they have looked at their archived version of Obama's long form.

National Review ought to care because getting this detail wrong will leave folks wondering whether they have been following the debate and doing their homework.  As to why I care - well, the short form is meant to be an accurate summary of the long form, which Hawaiian officials insist they have inspected.  That should assure us that Obama has a long form certificate which lists Honolulu as his place of birth.  Case closed?  Well, maybe not. 

If that long form was issued on the basis of a hospital record with an attending physicians's signature, it becomes harder to believe in a conspiracy limited to the mother and the grandparents.  But the State of Hawaii would also issue birth certificates on the basis of affidavits.  So what if Obama's long form lists his place of birth as his home address, based on the affidavits of his mother and grandmother?  Is the case still closed? 

Well, good luck re-opening it.  Obama's mother and grandparents have passed away, so they won't be questioned.  If the long form certificate provided a hospital, I suppose historians could look for hospital records, doctor records, insurance records, old bank statements for the Dunhams, or whatever (and have a nice day.)  Sorry, I digress - let's press on with the National Review:

...we note for the record that his mother was a native of Kansas, whose residents have been citizens of the United States for a very long time, and whose children are citizens of the United States as well. 

My goodness, was it only yesterday Josh Marshall revealed his utter ignorance on this point?  In the update following his self-proclaimed last update he finally cottoned on to this:

Later Update: This appears to be the lacunae the birthers hang their hat on (from the State Department website ...)

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.

Their thinking seems to be that since Obama's mother was just shy of her 19th birthday at the time of his birth, she couldn't meet the "five after the age of fourteen" requirement, thus necessitating rushing home to get the phony certification of stateside birth to make the eventual run for president possible.

Reliance on the statute may not be appropriate, but if for whatever reason it does not apply, the National Review ought to explain why.  Otherwise they appear to be dismissing arguments with which they are not familiar, ad we know how troubling that can be.

OK, I am running long.  Longer.  Let me try and at least soundbite my own official editorial position, which is inspired by Thomas Collins, a regular commenter here:

The US Congress accepted the certification of the results of the Electoral College, which met in accordance with the US Constitution. The results were that Barack Hussein Obama received a majority of the electoral votes. That's it. He's the legitimate US Prez, like it or not (and as I have many times stated on this blog, I don't particularly like it).

Congressman are sworn to uphold the Constitution; presumably they feel as if they have fulfilled their duty and accepted Obama as President.  In any case, it is not at all obvious from the Constitution just what the enforcement mechanism for the "natural born citizen" clause might be.  But I will bet that no court is going to take this up so soon after Bush v. Gore.

So where are we?  There are facts in abeyance available on Obama's long form birth certificate known only to a few top Hawaiian officials; there is a law about the children of Americans and aliens which may or may not be applicable; and there is the "natural born citizen" clause of the Constitution which has never been litigated.  You can stir that soup for a long time and never get a court involved and never, ever get a Democratic Congress to poke at this.

However!  After watching the media roll over for the John Edwards love child (and they didn't even like John Edwards!) and having seen the media roll over for Kerry's Vietnam stories in 2004 (we are still waiting for the public release of all his records, as promised on Meet The Press), I think we will be waiting a while before we get a serious reporter to simply say to Robert Gibbs, "Let's all look at the long form birth certificate so we can try to move on."  It seems easy, but it jars with the media's current faith-based initiative.  There is also the theory that keeping this topic buzzing helps the Dems by making the righties look kooky.  Maybe!  But we don't really need any help, and I doubt it helps the media to remain so visibly in the tank for Obama.  Time will tell.

WE CONCLUDE THIS TIRADE:  Which of the following Bold Statements would create the most awkwardness and be most likely to instigate a spousal under-table kick at a dinner party?

(a) I don't really believe Christ was born in Bethlehem;

(b) I don't really believe Mohammed was born in Mecca;

(c) I don't really believe Obama was born in Hawaii?

WE RESUME THIS TIRADE:  Lots of interesting background in the Honolulu Advertiser.  The Nordyke twins were born the day after Obama and have birth certificates very close to his by file number, which I guess proves that... any conspiracy must have been implemented in 1961 rather than years later.

We see yet another example of "Send better rebuttals" from Robert Farley of Politifact (my emphasis):

In November 2008, The Advertiser reported that the first published mention of the future president appeared in a Sunday Advertiser birth announcement that ran on Aug. 13, 1961:

"Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4."

The identical announce- ment ran the following day in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin.

Birthers wave off those birth announcements, saying that Obama family members 48 years ago could have phoned in false information to both newspapers.

Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the general public but by the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals, Okubo said.

Birth announcements from the public ran elsewhere in both papers and usually included information such as the newborn's name, weight and time of birth.

"Take a second and think about that," wrote Robert Farley of the St. Petersburg (Fla.) Times' Pulitzer Prize winning Web site PoliticFact.com on July 1. "In order to phony those notices up, it would have required the complicity of the state Health Department and two independent newspapers — on the off chance this unnamed child might want to one day be president of the United States."

Well, having stopped and thought, I infer that if our conspiracists could get false information into the system at the Health Department, it would flow from there to the two newspapers, which reduces the circle of complicity.  And here I learn something else:

Advertiser columnist and former Star-Bulletin managing editor Dave Shapiro was not at either paper in 1961, but he remembers how the birth notices process worked years later when both papers were jointly operated by the Hawaii Newspaper Agency — which no longer exists.

"Those were listings that came over from the state Department of Health," he said. "They would send the same thing to both papers."

So someone who wasn't there can tell us what the normal procedure was years later.  That pins it down.  In Alterna-World the elder Ms. Dunham, a bank manager worried about her son-in-law, chats with a lawyer friend who does estates, wills, and that sort of thing (Bankers do get involved in that sort of discussion, you know).  Incredibly, this lawyer has a friend in the Dept. of Health, and the rest is history.  Inconceivable?  Really?  My vast conspiracy now extends to a concerned mother-in-law and a lawyer friend with contacts.  Real Bourne Identity stuff.

Comments

[Neo]

Here is proof that President Obama was not born in the United States.

[Neo]

The answer is (b)

[Paul Zrimsek]

Dear Mrs. Maguire: Please kick harder.

[narciso]

Seriously, can we get back to the Libby trial, I'm sure there are some threads left
hanging.

[Chris]

Mr. Maguire: Have to say, agree with you 100%. There's **probably** no there there, but aren't we supposed to investigate this fully (optimally before the guy gets elected)? While I agree with the intent of mainstream conservatives to get this out of the limelight as soon as possible, the fact remains there are unanswered questions. In the end, it probably doesn't matter, but it's good to see someone actually asking the right sort of questions, rather than just flat out dismissing this as blather.

[Thomas Collins]

TM, now you have stepped into a controversy. See LUN for the description of a book that argues on page 250 that Jesus of Nazareth may actually have been born in Nazareth, not in Bethlehem.

No matter how one views this issue (Obama's birth, that is, not Jesus's), I think we can all applaud TM's incisive dismissal of the argument that the fact that noone could have known that Obama would be running for Prez (or that anyone thinking about this wouldn't have given Obama the middle name Hussein) somehow cuts against the possibility that false certifications were made. I'm surprised TM's point about a non-Prez promotion related incentive for false certifications hasn't been given more recognition in the blogosphere.

[polynikes]

What irritates me more than Obama's refusal to make public his long form BC is the disparaging remarks made by some conservatives against other conservatives for daring to request Obama do this simple task.

[andycanuck]

I'm with you on this, Tom: just show the full long-form version or its microfiche copy or whatever.

And I'm fine with every (major) candidate having to show his/hers in the future, too, for those that think racism is the motivation for this and not serious questions about the most-unvetted candidate and president in modern U.S. history. [And I hope you're holding up well under all those attacking you as a 'birther nut' now.]

[Sue]

I don't feel like transferring my argument from the other thread here, but I think I proved, to myself anyway, Obama was indeed born at the hospital in Hawaii.

If interested, go http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/07/birthers-and-truthers.html?cid=6a00d83451b2aa69e2011572421981970b#comment-6a00d83451b2aa69e2011572421981970b>here and scroll up for how I argued myself into he was born in Hawaii.

[Bruce]

I'm sad to admit I think I'm a storker. In the absence of a birth certificate I have to conclude the stork brought him ...

However in all seriousness, the bad side of not releasing his birth certificate for Obama is that the number of people believing in these kind of consiracies grows as time goes on. And next election, there may be enough birthers who think Obama was born outside of the USA to tip the election.

[Geek, Esq.]

There is no reasonable doubt on this. Every single last fact points in one direction. TM is tilting at a windmill, claiming that it's possible that there's a giant conspiracy, that Obama's grandparents committed fraud, etc etc.

This is paranoia, not reason.

The case that Obama was born in Hawaii is much stronger than the case that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure.

Bottom line is that the law and the facts are on one side, and Tom's vivid and overactive imagination is on the other.

Which is why you Birthers get laughed at.

[matt]

I want to see his driver's license, his grades from Columbia, and his Harvard Law grades....if he's so brilliant and he's done so many stupid things in office so far, I want to see some proof dammit...

[Pofarmer]

McCain is born to two American parents, both Service members, serving at a U.S. base in Panama. There are questions, He pops out his birth certificate and the Senate holds a hearing. Barack Obama is born to one U.S. citizen and one non U.S citizen(supposedly). There are questions as to where exactly he was born, to boot. There is also the question of why his last name is now "Obama" given his supposed adoption by Mr. Soetoro. And the Senate? Crickets. At least SOMEBODY could have said SOMETHING about the fact that he was born with dual citizenship, was a citizen of another country at one point, and probably carried that countries passport, as well as possibly used that citizenship for foreign student aid. Yes, there are questions to be answered. Plenty of questions, and those are just the tip, tip, tip of the iceberg.

[megapotamus]

There is no need to posit some custody battle of a distant future, especially as Barack Sr had little demonstrated desire for the more pedestrian duties of fatherhood for the several Barack's that are half this and half that across the globe. There were and are manifold benefits to being an American citizen rather than a Kenyan beyond family law issue. Are birth records falsified today to gain access to, say, Medicaid? Sure, and not infrequently with the collusion of officials high or low.

I am strongly inclined to the position that the Electoral College disposed of this Constitutionally. But it seems that, on this topic as so many others, the Obies contradict themselves. The lawsuit that saw the DOD rescind a deployment order rather than have the Obies submit to an airing of the documents shows that, for Obama, this issue trumps even the prosecution of a hot war; his particular War of Choice, Afghanistan. This action by the O-Admin gives every troop out there a Get Out of Formation Free Card. All you have to do is file a lawsuit questioning Barack's bona fides. Do it yourself and it will cost about fifty bucks. The only explanation that does not imply that there is something dire that would be learned from the Long Form is that they didn't think this deployment thingie was very important. That is, to say the least, a bothersome state of affairs.

[BK]

As to your comment "Congress is sworn to uphold the Constitution": Did they start doing that again?

[Jack is Back!]

After all of this plus my friend Joe who is a naval academy graduate and a true blue birther, I am starting to wonder whether even I have been born in the United States much less really a live body residing here (but temporarily in Belgium). Geez, can we some how get to the nitty-gritty here. What is the smoking gun? Where do the cards fall? Who, what, where and when? Do we need Dan Rather to do a 60 minutes on this?

[Porchlight]

I believe he was born in Hawaii. I still want to see the long form birth certificate, or microfiche, or whatever format the information takes.

I would also like to see documentation of any dual citizenship or citizenship of another country that he may have held at any other time.

Is that really such a ridiculous request?

[Danube of Thought]

"The lawsuit that saw the DOD rescind a deployment order rather than have the Obies submit to an airing of the documents..."

Don't believe for one second that that was the reason they rescinded that order. That lawsuit would never in a million years have reached the discovery phase.

TM's hypothetical actions by the mother and grandparents would have required that they commit perjury.

[PeterUK.]

C) will get you kicked (b) will get you beheaded.All depends on the kind of party you are at.

[bad]

Well, it does appear that Stanley Ann committed bigamy.

[clarice]

Well, then they'll have to be prosecuted postmortem.

[sam]

"TM's hypothetical actions by the mother and grandparents would have required that they commit perjury."

So? Thousands of people commit perjury every day.

[Pofarmer]

Geez, can we some how get to the nitty-gritty here.

Well, we coouuullldddd if the document in question would be released.

I believe he was born in Hawaii. I still want to see the long form birth certificate, or microfiche, or whatever format the information takes.

I would also like to see documentation of any dual citizenship or citizenship of another country that he may have held at any other time.

I'm with Porchlite. I also want to know if he used Indonesian citizenship to avoid Selective service, as well as for student aid.

[sam]

My own personal experience: I applied for US citizenship 14 years ago, and needed to provide a birth certificate to the INS. Since the hospital (in another country) had lost all records (they claimed multiple floods over multiple years), I submitted affidavits from my parents and my uncle. I could have made up any date, year and place of birth, and it would be my current official persona.

[Pofarmer]

sam

Do your records list when the information was submitted?

[PeterUK.]

Still worried sick Geek Esq? Just that small doubt in the minds of voters. Pooof!

[Milton Quaffalot]

"Perhaps the mother and maternal grandparents feared for the day when the white Ms. Dunham would be contesting with a black Kenyan man in a Kenyan court for custody of a black Kenyan baby"

Do you think that the Kenyan government would have given a hoot that there was an announcement in a Hawaiian newspaper? What was the Kenyan judge going to say, "Well ma'am, you have this newspaper announcement so you make take baby Barack".

[clarice]

Milton, In these disputes, it is often necessary to gain the assistance of the U.S. State Dept. Whether or not that would be the case, they seem to have been smart enough to know a paper trail--stronger than one without these announcements--was needed.

[Danube of Thought]

When and why did McCain produce a birth certificate? His birth certificate wouldn't affect in any way his eligibility for the presidency, and there was never any dispute as to the date and place of his birth. (By the way, I don't believe Roberta McCain, whom I knew when I was a child, was ever in the service.)

There is no doubt that thousands of people commit perjury every day. But many thousands more avoid doing so because it's a felony. I am not aware of any reason to conclude that the three people in question were in the former group instead of the latter.

[OldTimer]

The Obamafile.com has just posted some interesting information concerning the DOH 'USA Today' "I have seen the birth certificate" statement. This story is only growing legs because of Obama's vital statistics and associated documents being forcibly withheld from the public. The American people have always had a genuine interest in the childhood, close relationships and upbringing of our POTUS. Obama should be flattered so many are so curious... :)

[Milton Quaffalot]

Clarice, don't you think the US State Dept. would want to see something more than a newspaper announcement before getting involved in an international custody battle?

[Pofarmer]

When and why did McCain produce a birth certificate?

My understanding was that one was produced for the hearing on his eligibility. Is that incorrect?

If I was incorrect on the mother, then I stand corrected on that issue.

[clarice]

Sure--but the more evidence contemporary with his birth the better.

It's also possible that they did it for the same reason other people do--a social announcement to acquaintances.

[Sue]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090728/NEWS01/907280345/Hawaii+officials+confirm+Obama%E2%80%99s+original+birth+certificate+still+exists>Obama's Original Birth Certificate Still Exists In Paper Form. In case mantis is lurking.

[Appalled]

The nitty gritty is this -- there is no evidence that any judge is required to look at that says Obama is not born in Hawaii.

Anything else that may be on that birth certificate -- and I agree that there might be something embarassing there -- is none of the public's business. Even politicians and Presidents have some right to privacy.

[jwest]

Sue,

The document numbers being out of sequence for his birthday could indicate that there was a delay in transferring the information to the registrar after the birth.

If Obama’s grandparents filled out an affidavit the day after Little Barack was born at their home (or word reached them from Kenya) it would account for the document number being higher than the twins.

(I haven’t been following closely, so if this explanation has already been put forward, disregard the comment)

[Sue]

jwest,

The document numbers prove to me that he was born at that hospital. The hospital staff would have filled out the BCs and left them for the doctor's signature. That the numbers are so close, 2 digits separate them, tells me that the BC came from that hospital.

[Sue]

Even politicians and Presidents have some right to privacy.

Yeah, well tell that to the Ryans.

[Porchlight]

Anything else that may be on that birth certificate -- and I agree that there might be something embarassing there -- is none of the public's business. Even politicians and Presidents have some right to privacy.

A decent argument. But not one I'm very sympathetic to, considering Obama did not believe that his opponents in IL were entitled to the same privacy wrt their divorce records.

What if there are questions about citizenship of other countries? Shouldn't we be allowed to know if Obama was ever a citizen of Indonesia, and if so, when he renounced that citizenship?

[sam]

"sam

Do your records list when the information was submitted?"

Pofarmer: Are you asking when I submitted the affidavits to record my birth date and place, to satisfy the INS?

[Sue]

Appalled,

I was always in the "he was born in Hawaii" category. But what if the story he has concocted is false? Or he was adopted by his stepfather and his name was changed? Whatever silliness he doesn't want us to see, you can bet someone knows. Isn't it in our interests to know if there is something that could be used to blackmail our president with?

[mantis]

Obama's Original Birth Certificate Still Exists In Paper Form. In case mantis is lurking.

So I hear. The only thing I can figure is that Jon Klein at CNN read the Star Tribune report in which Okubo explained that the state went paperless in 2001, and he assumed that the records had been destroyed, even though she didn't say that and implied otherwise. Though I did say "apparently" and linked when I passed that on, I still should have waited as it didn't jibe with what else I had heard. Thanks CNN.

In any case, the DOH head has again explained that she has seen Obama's records, and specifically told us his birth was recorded as happening in Honolulu. I for one don't need to know the name of the physician who performed the deliver, but YMMV.

[Porchlight]

Isn't it in our interests to know if there is something that could be used to blackmail our president with?

Excellent point and one that keeps getting lost in the shuffle. There are many reasons candidates are supposed to be thoroughly vetted and this is one of them.

[Sue]

You know what makes me angry? That our press failed to vet this man when it should have been done. We know all about Palin's uterus, but next to nothing about the man who is president. And everytime a "friend" pops up, they are raving lunatics.

[jwest]

Sue,

How did you determine that the BC number is issued at the hospital as opposed to the state agency? Is there a hospital designator in the prefix different than what was issued at other hospitals or those certificates issued for home birth?

[Porchlight]

I still don't understand how it is legal for Fukino to reveal any information about the content of the BC.

[Pofarmer]

Pofarmer: Are you asking when I submitted the affidavits to record my birth date and place, to satisfy the INS?

No, I'm just asking if that date is on the records.

[Janet]

Obama should get as much right to privacy about his birth certificate as did those who ran against him in Illinois with their divorce papers.

[Pofarmer]

I still don't understand how it is legal for Fukino to reveal any information about the content of the BC.

Do you think maybe the administration is leaning on them? They seem to have novel ideas about "legal".

[sam]

Pofarmer:

I am unclear as to which date you are referring to.

I have no recorded birth date, as the hospital lost all records during floodings.

So, the birth date that I have on my passport is the one I submitted, based on 3 affidavits. The submission of this date was 14 years ago, when I (way past reaching adulthood) immigrated and applied for naturalization.

My only point was I could have submitted any date, time (in reasonable proximity of actual birth so as not to look 35 when my passport says 5) and place of birth, and that would become my official statistics from that day forward.

[Pofarmer]

Thanks Sam. What I was wondering, if that you submitted data that was not on an official birth certificate, if the date you submitted the data, and the U.S. documents were created, was somewhere on the documents.

Let's say you were born in 1955, and you submitted this information to the INS in 1986. Your birthdate would be listed as 1955, but is there anything there saying that the document was created in 1986?

[clarice]

Po, I suppose the proscription in Hawaiin law does not bar an official from confirming what the person listed on the b.c. says..stuff in public knowledge like the date of his birth.

I don't think if the b.c. named no father or a different father than O is claiming, he could reveal that.

[clarice]

*Hawaiian**

[Porchlight]

Do you think maybe the administration is leaning on them?

I can't think of any other reason, Pofarmer. But I sure wish someone would ask about it.

[Porchlight]

Sounds reasonable, clarice, except I believe Janice Okubo and possibly other HI officials made a big fuss during the last go-round about how it was illegal for them to confirm or deny *anything* about the content of the BC including place of birth.

[PeterUK.]

Clarice,
"Whether or not that would be the case, they seem to have been smart enough to know a paper trail--stronger than one without these announcements--was needed."

Oddly,the only one in Obama's life.

[Seixon]

What's really absurd here is that the media dug up Joe Plumber's tax records, yet cannot bring themselves to see the full birth certificate of the man who is running the country.

There must really be something embarrassing on that birth certificate for the Obama White House to be stone-walling on this in such a fashion.

[PeterUK.]

Appalled.
"Anything else that may be on that birth certificate -- and I agree that there might be something embarassing there -- is none of the public's business. Even politicians and Presidents have some right to privacy.

I hope you remember that when somebody says "Show me your papers" or the IRS goes through your tax returns.

The Public have every right to know who the bozo who controls the big bangs is. Who is authorising the spending of your taxes. Remember why you don'y like George III?

[clarice]

Seixon--nice to see you again, Hope all is well.

[Sue]

How did you determine that the BC number is issued at the hospital as opposed to the state agency?

From my own experience. The hospital prepares the BC, has the parents sign them, the doctor sign them and sends them in to the proper authority. Just like a death certificate. It is prepared at the hospital or by the coroner.

[sam]

Pofarmer:

My reply to your comments at 5:21 seems to be a casualty of the ether.

"What I was wondering, if that you submitted data that was not on an official birth certificate, if the date you submitted the data, and the U.S. documents were created, was somewhere on the documents."

The only document created as a result of my submissions is my Certificate of Naturalization, which has a creation date I presume the INS (erstwhile, now DHS) has the affidavits that I submitted in its storage somewhere.

[Rick Ballard]

"There must really be something embarrassing on that birth certificate for the Obama White House to be stone-walling on this in such a fashion."

Seixon,

Nice to see you again. Which birth certificate? Barry Dunham's? Barry Soetero's? Barack Hussein Obama's? 'Cause I'm becoming more sure each day that all three exist (actually, just one, amended twice).

[Rick Ballard]

"Remember why you don't like George III?"

Who doesn't? It was that dmaned Lord North who caused all the trouble. G3 was just a harmless nutter, for the most part.

[PeterUK.]

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REVELATION.

[yo]

The birth announcement WAS NOT placed in the paper by his family. It was placed by the hawaii dept of vital statistics.

Which means, the "family trying to make sure he can be president" line by the left to try to discredit the right is a just a bald faced lying argument.

[Pofarmer]

The birth announcement WAS NOT placed in the paper by his family. It was placed by the hawaii dept of vital statistics.

And, we know this becaaauuussseeeee?

[sylvia]

I just posted this in the other thread, but this thread seems more current.

Here's a different one. Let's say Obama was actually born two years before he was supposed to have been born. Let's say Dunhan was under the age of consent at 16 when Obama was actually born. When someone is born to a girl underage (and I don't know the age of consent in Hawaii back then but probably 18 or 17) perhaps there would have been an obligatory investigation.

So the grandparents wanted to avoid a rape charge for Frank Marshall Davis, who was abusing some teen white girl per his memorandum. The family waited two years and then said Obama was born, and got themselves a short form certitifate. This would explain why his Indonesian teachers said he appeared two years older then his other classmates in Indonesia. And Obama is really 50, not 48.

Or... Dunham was taken to a state where the age of consent was lower, or Canada, for the birth, so that there would be no investigation, and then placed the announcement in the local papers and got a local cert.

To continue my theory, Dunham's father picked up an African student at the Uni because they needed a black guy to pose as a father to Obama. So that he wouldn't be a "bastard" and so that no one would suspect FMD. And there weren't many black guys in Hawaii at the time. Plus they wanted someone who would leave the country eventually and not cause trouble. Wasn't Obama Sr. introduced to Dunham by her father.

So they gave Obama Sr. a few bucks and he posed as the dad and they got the short form certificate when Dunham was 18.

[Extraneus]

I'm not much of a birther, but I *am* in the "what's so embarrassing that we can't see the real birth certificate?" camp.

I'd also like to see the SAT and LSAT scores.

These don't seem like unreasonable invasions of privacy for a president, and if I were in his shoes I'd be more than happy to produce these items, as well as my college transcripts, theses, passport, etc.

It seems pretty obvious that he has a lot to hide.

[sylvia]

Plus to support my theory, where are all the pictures of Barack Obama Sr with an infant Barack? The only one I've seen of the family was when Barry seemed to be about two. Seems like a whole lot of a lack of pictures for Dunham's first child.

[MayBee]

I guess it makes sense to rely on the fact that the hospital placed the birth announcement, rather than the actual birth certificate itself. Anybody who would argue with that kind of evidence is just wackadoodle, or trying to give comfort to wackadoodles.

[PeterUK.]

Considering the deal,Obama gets the keys to the White House,Airforce One and the Nuclear Suitcase,giving the great unwashed a peek at his dirty laundry seems reasonable.
It is Obama remembering power is only leant by the people,not given.

[sylvia]

By the way, my latest FMD father theory does not exclude my other theory that Sotero adopted Obama. Dunham made sure that Sotero adopted Obama in part to seal the earlier fraudulent birth certificate. It's also possible that they changed his age back to his real age at that point, in which case, the birthdates on the various certs wouldn't match.

[sylvia]

Oh and another little factoid in support of my theory. I remember reading Dunhan was taken out of one school in Seattle at 15 or so and later put into another school. Girls were taken out of shcools in those days for the usual suspected reasons. That might have been the time she gave birth.

[sylvia]

And by the way, I had this theory awhile ago on Frank Marshall Davis, but discounted it because the dates wouldn't match. I accepted all the official docs at face value. Now that I know in Hawaii there is a way around it, and a way to fudge the dates, the theory is back on.

Also - IF Dunham gave birth at a younger age, she was still living in Seattle at that time. That might induce her to go to Canada to give birth to avoid detection, which might open up some tricky complicated natural born issues, given that Obama is sticking with Obama Sr. as his dad.

[willem]

There are three likely concurrent issues that will can't be reconciled against the other because they offer entirely different systems of motive:

1) the fear of an international custody battle that a prudent parent/grandparent would strategically position against to prevent the child from being raised in Kenya,

2) the American citizenship of the child that the parent/grandparents would actively seek to secure, protect and preserve; and,

3) there are the adult political ambitions of a constitutional lawyer, Barack Obama, Jr., seeking to become while POTUS openly admitting only one American citizen parent.

Items #1 and #2 are central to the birther controversy and immersed in speculation and hearsay.

Item 3 is something entirely different.

In the matter of #3, the basic issue is factual, clearly rooted in the law and not speculation; the question: "Can the centuries old definition of a natural born citizen broadly established as requiring two parents to be citizens of the land of the child's birth be expanded to include a child with only one parent citizen?

This engages a legitimate point of law about matters of fact. This is not a conspiracy theory nor is it speculation.

The other awkward fact is the revelation of Obama's signature certifying he is a "natural born citizen" as was submitted to the State of Arizona for the purposes of the Arizona ballot.

He didn't say he "could be" or "I believe the court will ultimately allow it" .... he stated it as a fact what is clearly false:

a) Obama is not born to two American citizen parents; and,

b) expanding and changing the centuries old definition of NBC to extend NBC status to the child of one citizen parent has yet to be determined.

[Sue]

Ann Dunham was in Seattle at the age of 15. I doubt she had met Davis at that point. They moved to Hawaii in 1960, after she graduated from HS. I don't know where Davis was at that time. I also have never seen anything that says Ann Dunham knew Davis.

[clarice]

I believe Ann's father and Davis were friends in the Midwest, far before they moved to Seattle and that he lived in Hawaii when they moved there..But that's just my recollection--I haven't double checked.

[birfers 4ever]

You forgot #4.

4) Just a birth announcement

That one never entered your heads, did it?

You waste your time on useless speculation because it's more fun than examining your failures as a political party.

[Elliott]

I am still curious about the divorce records Sue linked to. As Stanley Ann was enrolled at the University of Washington in the 61-62 school year, could she have been a resident of Hawaii for 2 years in January 1964 as she states in the divorce filing?

[centralcal]

Seixon: I am starting to think that maybe someone HAS SEEN the long form of the BC. Political operatives (friendly) and/or MSM (friendly.

The more they know, the harder they try to hide.

I sense fear from O's supporters.

[PeterUK.]

"You forgot #4.

4) Just a birth announcement

That one never entered your heads, did it?"

Of course it did,but whose birth announcement,Barry Dunham's or Barrack Hussein Obama II?

[Sue]

http://www.obgyn.uic.edu/Clinical%20Practice%20Guidelines/Birth%20Certificate%20Registration.pdf>This is a pdf to a document from 2007 in Illinois. I realize it isn't proof that the hospital prepared the BC for Obama, but I remember signing the BC for both of my daughters before I left the hospital so I know in the 70s and 80s in my state, the hospital prepared the BC and filed it with the county and state.

[Sue]

Elliott,

That's a good question, but if no one challenged it, it wouldn't matter. No one really checks. Also, a student is usually still a resident of the county they lived in prior to registering for school, unless they change their residence by obtaining a driver's license, registering to vote, etc. At least it was that way with my daughters.

[Sue]

You waste your time on useless speculation because it's more fun than examining your failures as a political party.

Was that what you said when democrats were out of power? They were a failure as a political party? They wasted their time speculating whether Bush invaded Iraq because of oil, daddy or Israel, take your pick? Was behind 9/11? Or whether Cheney was secretly sending contracts to Halliburton? Or any other Michael Moore, Rosie Odonnell, Charlie Sheen madness?

[sylvia]

I was just doing a little binging and saw this good conspiracy site on Dunham. Didn't read it all yet but saw some interesting stuff on there so far. LUN

[Danube of Thought]

"3) there are the adult political ambitions of a constitutional lawyer, Barack Obama, Jr., seeking to become while POTUS openly admitting only one American citizen parent."

Those who contend that having only one American parent disqualifies him from the office can make their argument (and some of them do) even if it were stipulated that he was born in Hawaii, so that certainly wouldn't seem to be the motive behind his not disclosing the information in the original document. If he were concerned about that, he'd have to invent false citizenship information about his father.

The congress has the power to change centuries-old common-law precepts, and it does so all the time. It has the undoubted power to confer citizen-at-birth status on various categories of people, and does that all the time as well.

[sylvia]

I know it's crazy and goes against my theories but those two pics of Malcolm X and Obama on that site sure look pretty freaky. Look at the chin and forehead. It's a match. Hmmm. Might have to change my theory. Maybe that's why Michelle O wore that hideous red and black dress with the subtle 'X' at inauguration.

Okay, now I'm just going nuts.

[Captain Hate]

You waste your time on useless speculation because it's more fun than examining your failures as a political party.

Not really; I like badmouthing squishes like Steele, Voinovich, the two whores from Maine, Frum, Nooner, Parker and McCain's fat slut of a daughter as much as I like smacking around lowlife catamites like you. Speaking of failures: How 'bout no vote on Obastardcare before the recess. That's gotta leave a mark on Preznit 666's thin skin. Why doncha snag a carton of Kools for him 'cause he'll be lighting one off the other tonight.

[clarice]

David moved to Hawaii in 1948 and lived there until his death.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/2601914/Frank-Marshall-Davis-alleged-Communist-was-early-influence-on-Barack-Obama.html>Davis

Now, if I can find where I (think I) read that the families knew eachother in the Midwest--

[Jane]

They wasted their time speculating whether Bush invaded Iraq because of oil, daddy or Israel, take your pick? Was behind 9/11? Or whether Cheney was secretly sending contracts to Halliburton?

Sue,

I think they are still doing that.

[clarice]

Davis (like the Dunhams) lived in Kansas and he went to college there--in about 1930 he went to Chicago where he worked as a newsman before moving to Hawaii.

http://kansasprairie.net/kansasprairieblog/?p=7009

I think the Dunhams were too young to have been friendly with him there.

[verner]

Hey, did y'all hear that Obama and Gates will have their beer with Crowley on a picnic table outside his office.

Guess Michelle didn't want the white trash racist cop inside the house.

I hope Crowley realizes that this would never happen if it hadn't been favorably polled and vetted before focus groups.

[clarice]

It's easily photographed from outside the gates--Kinda like inviting someone to a restaurant to break up in the hope that the setting will forestall a scene.

[Sue]

I might have to hide after saying this, but http://www.malcolm-x.org/media/pic/mf18.jpg>this is uncanny.

[PeterUK.]

Clarice,

Davis,bloody hell! Nowadays,the man would be on the Sex Offender's Register.

[willem]

DoT-

If Congress had the power to negate through redefinition the natural born citizen requirement for POTUS set forth in Article II, they would have done so at the time they passed that utterly absurd "Sense of the Senate" resolution declaring John McCain and others like him to be eligible for the Office of President of the United States.

They didn't. They emitted flatus in the form of that resolution instead.

Interesting argument, though. I wonder what the framers would have thought about amending the constitution without bothering with an amendment to the constitution?

[Thomas Collins]

So, if Bush and Cheney are related to Obama and, per Sue's picture, Malcolm X could be Obama's father (or certainly his uncle), Bush and Cheney could be related to Malcolm X. Troublemakers all!!! :-))

[willem]

Cheney X.

[Fresh Air]

Sylvia--

Your theory is bit on the outlandish side, and I suspect there are numerous ways to disprove it. BUT...just for one, here's another drop of gasoline for your grassfire: the girl involved in the underage tryst that Davis admitted to was named...Ann.

[fastjm]

I can't believe I just read all of this nonsense. Don't you have something better to be doing?