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July 28, 2009

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MayBee

performance artist

Jack

Here’s Obama’s dilemma in a nutshell (READ VERY CAREFULLY AND DIGEST):

If BHO shows his original long form birth certificate, indeed showing he was born in Hawaii, it will also show his father was American citizen, Frank Marshall Davis, not the Kenyan/British citizen, Barack Obama Sr. While that would allow Barack Jr. to be POTUS eligible as BOTH a “citizen”/“native born citizen” AND an Article 2 “natural born citizen” — that is, born to two American citizens on American soil — it would simultaneously show he is a fraud hiding his real father — an unacceptable political debacle.

If, on the other hand, BHO keeps hiding his original long form birth certificate — while simply repeating, without showing, he was born in Hawaii — he can still CLAIM BOTH he was born in Hawaii AND his father was the Kenyan/British Barack Obama Sr. This would enable Barack Jr. to claim he’s a “citizen”/“native born citizen” but it would mean (if a federal court would ever get around to declaring and thus far no one has standing to bring the suit) that he’s NOT an Article 2 “natural born citizen” and thus not eligible to be POTUS — a legal/constitutional debacle since all acts under an illegal POTUS are void.

So it seems, BHO has elected option one until forced to go option two because for now it looks like no federal court will ever find a plaintiff with standing. (Of course, there’s the additional issue of BHO losing American citizen status if/when he became an Indonesian citizen — that is, IF he returned and was naturalized he would be a legal citizen, but would lose both native and natural born status, and, IF he returned and was not naturalized, he would be an illegal immigrant unlawfully in this country — but we’ll leave that for another day.)

PeterUK.

"The TV psychiatrist, Dr. Ablow (sp?) was on one of the Fox shows today and he said that Obama is increasingly exhibiting anger. He was quite sure that Obama has some issues."

If that is so,would it not be wise to take the batteries out of the nuclear suitcase?

PeterUK.

JMH,

" His Mother was a real space cadet, in an environment that seems more bizarre the more you know about it. Her behaviour and Obama's fantasy life suggest a lot of potentially hurtful, if not harmful, circumstances. If Obama started making it up as he went along in response, it wouldn't be surprising if there were a lot of tracks to cover once he decided on a public career in politics."

It is probable that he inherited many of his mother's mental traits. Stanley was an odd looking girl,who IMO role played. Why do a doctoral thesis subsisting on on food stamps,when her parents were relatively well off. Granny would not have let her grandson starve.
I agree that the role playing of Stanley Ann would be damaging to Barrack,but to what extent,and has he inherited the trait. He has certainly spent his life constructing his own realities.
The problem is,people like that tend to try to make the external reality conform with the constructed reality.This would explain why Obama is in a hurry to expedite his policies.Unfortunately,he will also drop them like a broken toy when they are no longer of use.
What price America?

First as tragedy, then as farce.

We're a desperate race evolved to have an imagination to conceive the impossible, and with enough plasticity of culture to keep experimenting at it. Apparently, the Twentieth Century's horrible tale was not enough to awaken us from the fantastic dream of socialism.

verner

Clarice, we shouldn't concentrate on one 13 year old girl that Davis molested per his memoir. Perverts and sociopaths like him have an incurable compulsion. They do it over and over again whenever opportunity presents.

Any child around him was at risk. It doesn't matter if the "Ann" in the book was Stanley Ann.

First as tragedy, then as farce.

Nice work, willem and DoT; quel avocat. I'm so glad to see clarice recognizing that this issue has transcended little details of nationality and birthplace, and is now framed in the sphere of the intrinsic and implicit agreement between governed and governor. Obama can establish his own legitimacy; he's just failing to do so.

I really didn't think you'd be back, but this was a fine example of your method and your flaws..

You see, mantis is capable of being a little stand up. Now carry it on, mantis; it isn't just CNN lying to you and just on this issue. Obama and crew are lying about everything.

PeterUK.

narciso,
If you are up.
Another one for your shrine.

PeterUK.

" Obama and crew are lying about everything."

That is the problem,Obama isn't lying,he is telling his truth,until the next truth come along.There are no truths and lies with personalities like Obama.Words mean what whatever he want them to mean to satisfy the current desire and accomplish the immediate goal. You are his best friend,until you aren't.

Captain Hate

Just because you are poor doesn't mean your life is over.
"That was kinda the point of the book. She was too proud to marry beneath her."

Not to completely hijack the thread (which it won't because anybody not interested will just skip over it) but I think you overly simplify what the book was about. First of all, it was a very time and place specific book, namely NYC in the late 1800s. The main character, Lily's, mother was a whorish social climbing grifter who drove her hard working husband to an early grave and left her daughter with no sense of purpose other than to aspire to the highest social circles. Lily was both smart and attractive, which opened things up for her to the devastatingly portrayed old-moneyed wastrels; but never in a way that would let her be truly one of them. Which was fine in a way, because she was smart enough to see what human garbage they really were, but her idiot mother left her ill-equipped to survive in the world outside of them. She wasn't a snob, because she had a genuine liking for working class people and even became one at the hat place, mainly because they were the most honest people she encountered that never tried to use her.

Pagar

Since this thread has at least some relationship to mothers, today would be a good day to read the tribute to his mother that Jim Hoft has up at Gateway Pundit.

LUN

Pagar

LUN for the 08:51 AM

Pofarmer

How many believe that the Supreme Court is going to rule him ineligible?

Don't really care. At least it would be heard.

Could he possibly be an Obama supporter (a journalist who supports Obama, could it be) who is inclined to discredit Obama's critics by making claims he has no basis for making?

Oh, now, do come on. Supporters making stuff up in support of the "The Won"? You must be joking.

megapotamus

Danube of Thought

"The lawsuit that saw the DOD rescind a deployment order rather than have the Obies submit to an airing of the documents..."

Don't believe for one second that that was the reason they rescinded that order. That lawsuit would never in a million years have reached the discovery phase.

Um, I know this is late in the day but the iron still seems hot... So why was the order rescinded if not to avoid an outside party gaining legal standing to view the BC? A million years is a long, long time. I thought the suit would be dismissed for standing, quietly, as some others have, but no and it is this strange action that draws me toward the Birfer Side. I'm left wondering why the DOD would set a precedent so dangerous and pervasive.

Orion

The kerfuffle came about not because some gomer in a trailer channeled space aliens through his CB who told him Obama was born in Kenya: Obama's aunt and grandmother were quoted as saying that. You can argue that they were misquoted or later recanted however any testimony to that effect "goes against interest": IE., no one who wants this issue to go away is going to say they WEREN'T misquoted.

The damage was done: the only way to redress it would be to provide Obama's original birth certificate and here's where it gets interesting for me. If Obama was trying to put this puppy to bed I'd have to score it an Epic Fail. It's been handled about as incompetently as any political rumor I've every heard about.

The Certificate of Live Birth (a) ISN'T his original birth certificate and was posted online with alterations. Post-Rathergate you don't DO that. You might as well throw bloody meat to the dogs. Only original documentation that your fingerprints aren't all over will suffice and Obama's people were, at the very least, sloppy.

Then Obamaphiles compounded their error with childish tirades and name-calling. It's OK to call a conspiracy nut a nut but first you establish his argument is nuts. The birthers say, "Why won't Obama show his original birth certificate"?, his defenders respond, "YOU'RE NUTS!!!" That Obama HASN'T released his original birth certificate seems to go right over his defenders' heads. Frankly they're the ones who sound like they're nuts because they keep talking about something else.

Finally there's the idea that they are somehow "scoring points" by flinging poo at the birthers. Some of them even admit that they want the controversy to continue because it makes the [fill in the blank] look bad and Obama look good by comparison. Trouble is, Obama's polls have been dropping like a rock since May. If this is supposed to shore his numbers up it hasn't been working. Obama's been losing ground for a number of reasons and the birther controversy has nothing to do with these. Slapping the birthers around doesn't do a thing to fix these. If anything it makes it look like his supporters don't want to talk about the failure of the stimulus bill or why health care "reform" is going to cost so much. There's a negligible number of "Undecided"'s out there who are going to start supporting Obama in sympathy against the birthers and a larger number who this issue troubles them more. Not a huge number but there is NO SCENARIO IN WHICH OBAMA PICKS UP NET SUPPORT OVER THIS.

The rule in politics is you don't need distractions. If an issue pops up that doesn't advance your agenda deal with it and get it behind you as quickly as possible. By not dropping a dime to the Department of Health in Honolulu and releasing his original birth certificate Obama has blundered badly. It shows what a noob he really is and how incompetent his supporters are as well, not to realize they can't cover for him.

Appalled

My last comment about the John Birthers is the LUN. Reflect a moment, folks. Is this what you want to become?

boris

So if this "looks kooky" to you then that means we are becoming kooky. Is that it?

At what point do you say to yourself "gee most of these folks aren't actually kooks, maybe this is actually something reasonable people can disagree on."

Or is it your chosen role to be the winger version of Uncle Tom.

boris

"You can't say that in public! You'll scare the white folks!"

Pofarmer

My last comment about the John Birthers is the LUN. Reflect a moment, folks. Is this what you want to become?

What I'd like to become is someone who demands honesty and accountability from their govt. If the anti-birthers think that's kooky, then so be it. Having an anonymous, uncontrollable, and unaccountable ruling class is about as un-American as it gets, and we're indisputably getting their.

Rick Ballard

"NO SCENARIO IN WHICH OBAMA PICKS UP NET SUPPORT OVER THIS."

Yes there is. There is a segment of the electorate, primarily women, who will respond to any attack upon this charlatan with reflexive defense. That was true with Bubba and it's true with Ogabe. I cannot define the size of the segment with any precision but I believe it to be 3-7%.

Any perceived attack upon the bum will draw a "protective" response from that segment. The political question is whether the negative reaction to Ogabe's refusal to disclose will outweigh the reflexive defense and provide an avenue for the rest of the cheap veneer to be ripped off.

I think it's worth a shot, at least while the Congressional jackals are out of town. .

narciso

Except Appalled, Sullivan hasn't been shunned by the Atlantic, Patrick Appell, has corrected him a few times. Matthews hasn't disinvited,him from his roundtable he was granted an audience with Obama, not in spite of, but because of that slur. He maybe be deported, but he will still chatter
from across the pond. I don'r think there is much point to this effort, as I've made
clear. I'm just struck by the irony, that
there is some downside to a cretinous lie, rather than to an investigation of some curious facts

Pofarmer

And ALL of these detractors do seem to miss the Salient point. He hasn't released the record.

jwest

Sue,

I followed the link to the Illinois hospital procedures and found them pretty much as I expected them to be.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as I read it, the hospital clerk fills out the information on the worksheet and forwards it to the State. Although it doesn’t specify it, the procedures seem to imply that at the point the worksheet info reaches the State office, the BC number is issued.

Going back to the Hawaii procedures for BC’s issued via affidavits for home birth, if Lil’Barack was born a day before someone in a hospital but has a BC number higher than that person, perhaps the number is due to a delay in the affidavit reaching the State agency.

Just a thought.

Pofarmer

And, no, a document supposedly from the Obama campaign to the Daily Kos, and thence roundabout to Factcheck.org, doesn't count.

Extraneus

Back to -10.

Pofarmer

Going back to the Hawaii procedures for BC’s issued via affidavits for home birth, if Lil’Barack was born a day before someone in a hospital but has a BC number higher than that person, perhaps the number is due to a delay in the affidavit reaching the State agency.

You would think BC's issued for a given day would be sent out in a batch.

fdcol63

I remember that they called Galileo a "nut" and a heretic because he dared to contradict the conventional, accepted wisdom that the universe revolved around the Earth.

After all, Aristotle had settled the issue centuries before.

Pofarmer

Also, if the document number is on the form at the Hospital, which I imagine that it is, normally, birth certificates would be started as soon as the child is born, so the non-sequential numbering wouldn't be explained by that. Even if there was a delay completing the certificate, it still should have been started first. So, now, you need to know where the number is first issued. It would be really interesting to know which of the 4 types of BC this is.

boris

If we knew as much about Barry/Barak's past as we knew about Reagan, Bush, or Sarah, would this crypto-clown even be presidebt?

Now that he is, might finding out more about crypto-clown's past decrease the damage being inflicted on the country?

To those who assert it is SO IMPORTANT to be ABSOLUTELY REASONABLE because anything less is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE ... does that not imply (you believe) the danger is so great that every misstep must be avoided at all cost? Or are you (all) just embarrased by our silliness?

Cuz frankly if it's the first you should probably be doing your part in whatever fashion suits you best and stop worring about "how we look". If it's the 2nd ... then take off hoser eh?

fdcol63

I don't know how other states do it, but in FL in 2003, after our son was born, a hospital employee came into my wife's room with a form and asked her questions in order to complete the birth certificate.

I was gone, and my wife was still doped up on pain meds from the C-section. Somehow, either through her error or that of the hospital employee, my bithdate was incorrectly entered. We didn't know this until the formal, actual certificate had been issued.

And it's been impossible to get it corrected since.

So, while some pieces of the BC process may get started immediately at birth, at least in FL, not all is completed until later.

Jane

fdcol63.

If I was your son I'd use that as an opportunity to have 2 birthdays.

Thanks Ann for listening!

I really see a lessening of adoration for the Won since the Crowley incident. I wonder if it is just around here.

willem

As I mentioned earlier, Bill Clinton and Scooter Libby were ruined over less. This is a controversy environment where many forces are coming into play. Not entirely marginalized at DoS, look who's waiting in the wings:

"Hillary Clinton says running for office isn't on her "radar," but she still has an eight-person political team and sports two overflowing campaign war chests."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/07/29/2009-07-29_hillary_camp_is_election_ready.html#ixzz0MekkYjOz

Pofarmer

So, while some pieces of the BC process may get started immediately at birth, at least in FL, not all is completed until later.

Yeah, but that wouldn't matter because the form had already been pulled and started. Like I said, it matters where the numbers would have been issued.

jwest

Profarmer,

The way I read the procedures Sue linked to, only a worksheet is used at the hospital. Once that is completed, the information is sent to the State so that they can produce a BC with a sequential number.

State bureaucrats are pretty protective of who puts an “official” number on their documents. You could say that that is what they live for.

I’m starting to like the geometric precision of how this piece of the puzzle fits into the affidavit scenario.

fdcol63

I've done some considerable genealogy research, and was able to order the 1913 birth certificate for my grandfather from the state of OH - the real, handwritten, long form ... not some generic COLB.

Sue

jwest,

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as I read it, the hospital clerk fills out the information on the worksheet and forwards it to the State.

That isn't what the link I provided said. The BC is prepared by a hospital employee, they retain a copy and mail the original to the correct state agency.

Rocco

Is it ok for a grandfather to bring his young grandson to a bar in a red light district? According to "Dreams From My Father"

But by the time I met Frank he must have been pushing eighty, with a big, dewlapped face and an ill-kempt gray Afro that made him look like an old, shaggy-maned lion. He would read us his poetry whenever we stopped by his house, sharing whiskey with Gramps out of an emptied jelly jar. As the night wore on, the two of them would solicit my help in composing dirty limericks. Eventually, the conversation would turn to laments about women.

"They'll drive you to drink, boy," Frank would tell me soberly. "And if you let' em, they'll drive you into your grave."

I was intrigued by old Frank, with his books and whiskey breath and the hint of hard-earned knowledge behind the hooded eyes. The visits to his house always left me feeling vaguely uncomfortable, though, as if I were witnessing some complicated, unspoken transaction between the two men, a transaction I couldn't fully understand. The same thing I felt whenever Gramps took me downtown to one of his favorite bars, in Honolulu's red light district.

"Don't tell your Grandmother," he would say with a wink, and we'd walk past hard-faced, soft-bodied streetwalkers into a small, dark bar with a jukebox and a couple of pool tables. Nobody seemed to mind that Gramps was the only white man in the place, and I was the only eleven or twelve year old. Some of the men leaning across the bar would wave at us, and the bartender, a big, light skinned woman with bare fleshy arms, would bring a Scotch for Gramps and a Coke for me. If nobody else was playing at the tables, Gramps would spot me a few balls and teach me the game, but usually I would sit at the bar, my legs dangling from the high stool, blowing bubbles into my drink and looking at the pornographic art on the walls-the phosphorescent women on animal skins, the Disney characters in compromising positions. If he was around, a man named Rodney with a wide brimmed hat would stop by to say hello. "How's school coming Captain?" "All right" "You getting them A's ain't you?" "Some." "That's good. Sally, buy my man here another Coke," Rodney would say, peeling a twenty off a thick stack he had pulled from his pocket before he fell back into the shadows.

I can still recall the excitement during those evening trips, the enticement of darkness and the click of the cue ball, and the jukebox flashing it's red and green lights, and the weary laughter that ran around the room. Yet even then, as young as I was, I had already begun to sense that most of the people in the bar weren't there out of choice, that what my Grandfather sought there was the company of people who could help him forget his own troubles, people who he believed would not judge him. Maybe the bar really did help him forget, but I knew with the unerring instincts of a child that he was wrong about not being judged. Our presense there felt forced, and by the time I had reached junior high school I had learned to beg off from Gramps invitations, knowing that whatever it was I was after, whatever it was that I needed, would have to come from some other source.


fdcol63

I'd have to say that jwest's observation is how I think most states do it.

After all, logistically the only way that a local hospital could assign official state document numbers would for each local hospital to be assigned a block of certificates or certificate numbers in advance. In this scenario, the numbers would be grouped by location, rather than sequentially by order of birth.

willem

Yo. Don't miss this excellent exchange between tanarg and Donofrio at the link below, starting in the comments at "tanarg on July 28, 2009 at 4:13 pm" if you are interested in a comprehensive primer of the historical and legal issues in play beneath this controversy.

Scroll down the comments section and locate "tanarg on July 28, 2009 at 4:13 pm"

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/obama-is-guilty-on-at-least-two-counts-of-false-swearing/#comments

Jane

OT: Great letter to Skip Gates from fellow professor at Harvard - LUN

Porchlight

Rasmussen via HotAir (link is to a video):

Poll: 49% now think Obama views U.S. society as unfair and discriminatory

Jane

Rocco,

No way Obama wrote that. It doesn't match anything we know about him.

Sue

Posted by: fdcol63

Call the hospital where your child was born and ask them. I suspect they issued the BC and sent it to the state for recording.

Sue

I'll go one further, look at your child's original BC (if you have it) and notice if you or your wife have signed it. Then wonder how that happened if the state issued it.

Pofarmer

After all, logistically the only way that a local hospital could assign official state document numbers would for each local hospital to be assigned a block of certificates or certificate numbers in advance. In this scenario, the numbers would be grouped by location, rather than sequentially by order of birth.

Yes, and?

Like I said, you need to know how they do it. Are all birth certificate numbers sequential, or are they grouped by hospital? I've got two or three different books of forms here that go to different companies. The number on that form tracks that sample. There were two hospitals in Honolulu, somebody needs to compare numbers for the dates in questions between the two to see whether all numbers are sequential or if they are keyed by Hospital. This makes sense, especially if the Hospital keeps a copy, as they do here. How else would you index the Hospital copy to the official document? If the numbers change, you couldn't.

Sue

I'm basing this on my own children. My signature is on their original BC.

Porchlight

Jane, that letter is great. Thanks for the link!

Pofarmer

Same here with the Signatures, Sue.

DebinNC

Jane's absolutely right. No way did "apes eating figs" Obama write that.

On wanting honesty in government, AP shows how the Dems are going to cook the books to prove Porkulous is creating/saving jobs:

How much are politicians straining to convince people that the government is stimulating the economy? In Oregon, where lawmakers are spending $176 million to supplement the federal stimulus, Democrats are taking credit for a remarkable feat: creating 3,236 new jobs in the program’s first three months. But those jobs lasted on average only 35 hours, or about one work week. After that, those workers were effectively back unemployed, according to an analysis of state spending and hiring data. By the state’s accounting, a job is a job, whether it lasts three hours, three days, three months, or a lifetime.

Pofarmer

Dammit. This thing is like freaking yourself out in the woods at night.

I started out as an agnostic, just show the damn certificate, what's the big deal. Then, the more you turn over the more hinky little deals there are. You start to get yourself all worked up. Normally, I can talk myself out of stuff like this, but there are so many little things about not this issue, but this guys whole background that just don't add up.

fdcol63

Good suggestion .... I'll check my son's BC for our sigs.

fdcol63

Wife's signature, anyway. I know I didn't sign it. LOL

extend an open hand to me, pal, with a birth certificate in it

Is this what you want to become?

Birthers are like those kooks who thought Kennedy was smuggling women into the White House behind Jackie's back, or believed a man elected on a law & order platform would be affiliated with low-rent crooks breaking into hotel rooms.

The Nordyke document is compelling evidence that Obama was born in Honolulu, and that he could release a more detailed birth certificate than he has.

The President is confronted with multiple groups of conspiracy theorists making demands of him. He could throw up his hands, say "there's no point talking to these people, they'll never be satisfied," and proceed to marginalize and ridicule them. Or, he could say, "it won't cost me much to meet this one demand, why not do it as a respectful gesture of good faith".

It bothers me that he takes the former tack when the conspiracists are American citizens concerned with Constitutional legitimacy, and the latter with Iranian theocrats in pursuit of nuclear weapons.

Porchlight

Sorry to be persistently OT, but I just saw this:

Ed Henry of CNN twitters that Obama's townhall today will be held in the perishables section of a Kroger

Can I just ask WTF? This reads like a joke - surely I won't be the only one to think so.

DebinNC

He'll probably be standing next to the arugula, exhorting us to eat our veggies.

Jane

Porchlight,

Gee that sort of smells of desparation don't you think. Plus it's funny.

Rocco

Jane

I was thinking the same thing! Frank Marshall Davis wrote a pornographic novel titled "Sex Rebel: Black (Memoirs of a Gash Gourmet)" published in 1968. Obama would have been 6 or 7 years old when this book was published.

In Dreams, Obama wrote, "I was intrigued by old Frank, with his books and whiskey breath and the hint of hard-earned knowledge behind the hooded eyes."

If Gramps and Uncle Frank sought eleven year old Barack's help writing dirty limericks, did they also let him read Sex Rebel with it's references to bi-sexuality?

Porchlight

It is funny, Jane, but totally strange too. Things seem to be getting weirder all the time with this President.

Sue

jwest,

I'm not sure why you think the worksheet is all they discussed in the link I provided.

POSTION STATEMENTS Assigned hospital personnel assemble and record the medical and personal data to be entered on the birth certificates. Hospital personnel should use the Electronic Birth Certificate (EBC) forms supplied from the State Division of Vital Records. Assigned hospital personnel will: • Collect and record information about the parents and medical data on the yellow worksheet. Secure all necessary signatures on the worksheet. • Prepares a correct and legible birth certificate using data from the worksheet, making certain that every item is completed. Submit birth certificate electronically to the State Division of Vital Records. • Maintain a complete file of births that occur in the hospital. The yellow hospital copy is retained in the individual medical record of the newborn. • File the certificate with the local registrar within seven days after the birth, the time specified in the Vital Records Act. • Assist the State or local registrar by answering inquires promptly. • Assist parents of children born in the hospital by completing any forms or statements needed to correct any errors in the original certificates which may not have been detected at the time the certificates were initially prepared by the hospital.
clarice

It's a fantastic letter., Jane. I blogged it though of course don't know when or if it'll be up.

The Crow

Oh, Goody!

Another 'birfer' thread.

Thomas Collins

The Audacity of Lettuce.

clarice

"He'll probably be standing next to the arugula, exhorting us to eat our veggies."

A big chunk of dough is being authorized to be spent fighting obesity and getting us to eat more fruits and veggies so your witty remak may be more true than you thought.

Between maternalistic govt and paternalistic ovt I think the former is much more intrusive and annoying.

There --I said it.

Sue

He is having a town hall meeting in a grocery store? Is he nuts?

DebinNC

How many jobs have been lost and how much have food prices risen because of feds choosing 3" smelt over people?

Pofarmer

He is having a town hall meeting in a grocery store? Is he nuts?

Apparently yes to both.

Do you think there are some Secret Service guys perusing the Help Wanted ads? All this has to be a terrific pain in the ass for them.

Original MikeS

Obama is a mysterious guy. While it was perfectly natural for people to be interested in the facts of his birth, it is a bit curious that he chose to release the 'short form' of his birth certificate rather than the long form.

It is also curious that Obama chose to keep his college transcripts and SAT scores private. One would expect that Barak, as a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law, would be proud of his academic record. Prospective employers are almost always interested in reviewing college transcripts. If Obama was interested in working for a prestigious law firm, the law firm certainly would have insisted on seeing his college transcripts. Barak, chose other employment.

I think it is curious that the most powerful man in the world has so many secrets in his past.

Caro

Thanks for the link to a wise letter, Jane.

PeterUK.

"I think it is curious that the most powerful man in the world has so many secrets in his past."


Even more curious that Obama should want so many secrets in his past.Perhaps there is no past?

BB Key

Sue,
You are right about the documents in Hawaii.
I looked at the Advertiser,NRO, and the photos on Factcheck.
Drawing on the auditing I used to do, I worked backwards and the following is my take:

Sunday Ag.13,1961 public notice in newspaper.
Tueday Ag.8,1961 document filed
Saturday Ag.5 Twins born
Friday Ag. 4 Dunham/Obama birth
Clerk comes to work Monday Ag.7 and begins working on documents in her InBox Sunday's records on top; then Saturday's; then Friday's therfore the twins document numbers are 10637,10638 and Obama is 10641.
Still does not mean we should not get a look at the marital status of:
Dunham - Caucasian
Obama - African
Thanks for the links

Parking Lot

((A big chunk of dough is being authorized to be spent fighting obesity and getting us to eat more fruits and veggies so your witty remak may be more true than you thought))

I hope Oprah doesn't take the war on obesity personally.

clarice

"Is he nuts?" No---they're one aisle over.

PeterUK.

"(A big chunk of dough is being authorized to be spent fighting obesity "

Yes they get $2000 in fifties and hold it between their teeth at meal times.

Parking Lot

((Is he nuts?" No---they're one aisle over))

LOL!!!!!!

Rocco

I would have chosen a pint of Guinness myself. A toast for Sergeant Crowley. For Boston

For Boston, for Boston, we sing our proud refrain for Boston, for Boston 'tis wisdom's earthly fane for here we are one and our hearts are true and the towers on the heights reach to heav'n's own blue. for Boston, for Boston 'til the echoes ring again

For Boston, for Boston
thy glory is our own
for Boston, for Boston
'tis here that truth is known
and ever with a right
shall our heirs be found
'til time shall be no more
and thy work is crowned
for Boston, for Boston
thy glory is our own

Sue

BB Key,

Thanks. Now if we can figure out what he was hiding since he was born in Hawaii, are job will be done.

Danube of Thought

"So why was the order rescinded if not to avoid an outside party gaining legal standing to view the BC?"

Because this guy is an officer, and there is no way the Army wants to send a malcontented, mouthy officer to a combat zone. Same thing happened to my ex-brother-in-law in 1967 over Vietnam. He got orders to a combat squadron deployed in the Tonkin Gulf, and he publicly announced that he wouldn't go unless LBJ promised him we were trying to win. He filed a crazy lawsuit of some kind. They rescinded his orders and sent him to a non-combat squadron, then allowed him to resign a year later.

Also, keep in mind this officer is a reservist who had initially volunteered to go, and had a right (although not formally exercised) to withdraw his application to go.

I suspect if he'd been an enlisted soldier in the regular army he'd simply have been court-martialed and ultimately discharged.

Pofarmer

Clerk comes to work Monday Ag.7 and begins working on documents in her InBox Sunday's records on top; then Saturday's; then Friday's therfore the twins document numbers are 10637,10638 and Obama is 10641.

Or, Grandma and Grandpa Dunham show up first thing Monday morning to report the birth of new Grandson Barack.

PDinDetroit

I tend to think that "this dog may hunt", but it won't go very far or very fast only on 3 legs. This story was crippled from Day Zero: Ibama Blocking and Whack-Jobs Flocking.

There are reasonable people asking reasonable questions though, to which I say Habeas Nativitas Tabellae!

What is the big deal anyways where he was born? To quote an old adage: Criminals Are Made, Not Born.

William Teach

You know, the funniest part about all the naysayers is that they keep saying "we don't want to discuss this!!!" And then they write all sorts of blog posts and stories in the MSM, keeping the issue alive :)

Danube of Thought

I think the reason that the Naturalization Act of 1934 wouldn't do it for McCain is that it would only have made him a naturalized citizen instead of a citizen at birth. The 1937 Act accomplished the latter.

The McCain case really doesn't stand for much, except that it shows us one federal judge's reasoning. It was not a published opinion; it was merely an order dismissing the case for lack of standing. He discussed the NBC issue only in the course of assessing the plaintiff's likelihood of succeeding if the matter ultimately were tried, as he is required to do when considering a request for injunctive relief.

In arriving at my conclusion on the issue I think I place more importance on the 1971 Rogers v. Bellei dictum suggesting congressional authority to specify what constitutes a natural-born citizen, and the first congress's having done precisely that.

I also am encouraged in my view by the conclusions jointly reached by Laurence Tribe and Ted Olson in their 2008 opinion. Unfortunately, although I found the actual opinion on the web a week or so ago, I have been unable to find it since--only discussions of it.

I appreciate all the contrary authorities others have pointed out. I realize those authorities are out there, and they are the reason no one can say this issue is settled.

PeterUK.

"What is the big deal anyways where he was born? To quote an old adage: Criminals Are Made, Not Born."

There is research to support the thesis that some criminals are born.

It isn't so much where Obama was born,but who he was born and WTF has he been doing since then.

JM Hanes

William Teach:

"And then they write all sorts of blog posts and stories in the MSM, keeping the issue alive"

Ain't that the truth. High profile hand wringing in the conservative punditry (mistakenly designed to protect their own credibility) feeds straight into the preferred narrative -- for pretty much the same reason folks like Brooks & Frum will always be in demand.

Shortly after GWB was elected, the NYTImes, who apparently never realized that the Republican party was an ideological coalition, discovered !FRACTURES! on the right. I can still remember when they self-importantly announced that they were creating a new slot for a reporter assigned to cover (gasp!) conservatives. Covering Democratic divisions is like marking time watching minor league baseball.

Elliott

DoT,

I see from Gabriel Chin's article that his argument is that the 1934 act doesn't apply to children born in the Canal Zone as it was not "beyond the limits and jurisdiction of the United States."

Ralph L

Captain H, I don't remember Lily's parents (I almost typed Libby) at all, but I was 18 when I read it and new to Society (novels).

FM Davis was born in 1905, so he was in his late 60's when BHO was 11-12. I suspect BHO was older if anything like that scene actually occurred. Did Honolulu have a large enough population of non-military blacks to have their own bar?

Gramps does sound like an irresonsible nutball, but we know he named his daughter "Stanley," a hostile act I can't believe his wife approved. Did they plan to have only one child?

Jane

I just got this in email from someone watching this thread from Iraq. I'll post the first part here - if you want the rest posted, let me know:

Clearing the Smoke on Obama’s Eligibility: An Intelligence
Investigator’s June 10 Report

Editors Note: In December ‘08 a retired CIA officer commissioned an investigator to look into the
Barack Obama birth certificate and eligibility issue. On July 21, 2009 westernjournalism.com
obtained a copy of the investigator’s report. Here is an unedited version of the report.

June 10, 2009 Report, updated July 18, 2009
The Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii
I think that I now understand the legal background to the question of where Obama was born.
Let’s begin with the statement that Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the Director of the Hawaii Department of
Health released on October 31, 2008. The television and print media used this statement as a reason to
prevent and treat with contempt any investigation into whether Barack Obama was not born in Hawaii.
But the language of the statement was so carefully hedged and guarded that it should have had the
opposite effect.
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State
law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons
who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record. Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of
Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain
these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health
has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”
It is understandable that after such an apparently definitive statement most news outlets, whether
conservative or liberal, would accept this as sufficient grounds to relegate the controversy to the status of
a fringe phenomenon. Unless they happened to take the trouble to look into the “state policies and
procedures” as laid down by the relevant statutes. If they had done so, they would have seen that Dr.
Fukino’s press release was carefully hedged and “lawyered” and practically worthless. But the media in
general should not be faulted. The statement seems to roll out with such bureaucratic certainty and final
authority. I believed it to be significant until a Honolulu attorney mailed me the relevant statutes. I was
so surprised that I laughed out loud.
Here is a summary of Hawaii’s “state policies and procedures” in 1961.
In the State of Hawaii, back in 1961, there were four different ways to get an “original birth certificate”
on record. They varied greatly in their reliability as evidence. For convenience, I’ll call them BC1, BC2,
BC3, and BC4.
BC1. If the birth was attended by a physician or mid wife, the attending medical professional was
required to certify to the Department of Health the facts of the birth date, location, parents’ identities and
other information. (See Section 57-8 & 9 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955
Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).

Jane

Actual long form Certificate of Live Birth similar
to one Obama refuses to release
BC2. In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then all that
was required was that one of the parents send in a birth certificate to be filed. The birth certificate could
be filed by mail. There appears to have been no requirement for the parent to actually physically appear
before “the local registrar of the district.” It would have been very easy for a relative to forge an absent
parent’s signature to a form and mail it in. In addition, if a claim was made that “neither parent of the
newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local
registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and
prepare and file the certificate.” (Section 57-8&9) I asked the Dept of Health what they currently ask
for (in 2008) to back up a parent’s claim that a child was born in Hawaii. I was told that all they
required was a proof of residence in Hawaii (e.g. a driver’s license [We know from interviews with her
friends on Mercer Island in Washington State that Ann Dunham had acquired a driver’s license by the
summer of 1961 at the age of 17] or telephone bill) and pre-natal (statement or report that a woman was
pregnant) and post-natal (statement or report that a new-born baby has been examined) certification by a
physician. On further enquiry, the employee that I spoke to informed me that the pre-natal and postnatal
certifications had probably not been in force in the ‘60s. Even if they had been, there is and was no
requirement for a physician or midwife to witness, state or report that the baby was born in Hawaii.
BC3. In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then, up to the
first birthday of the child, a “Delayed Certificate” could be filed, which required that “a summary
statement of the evidence submitted in support of the acceptance for delayed filing or the alteration [of a
file] shall be endorsed on the certificates”, which “evidence shall be kept in a special permanent file.”
The statute provided that “the probative value of a ‘delayed’ or ‘altered’ certificate shall be determined
by the judicial or administrative body or official before whom the certificate is offered as evidence.” (See
Section 57- 9, 18, 19 & 20 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of
Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).”
[In other words, this form of vault birth certificate, the Delayed Certificate, required no more than a
statement before a government bureaucrat by one of the parents or (the law does not seem to me clear on
this) one of Barack Obama’s grandparents. If the latter is true, Ann Dunham did not have to be present
for this statement or even in the country.]
BC4. If a child is born in Hawaii, for whom no physician or mid wife filed a certificate of live birth, and
for whom no Delayed Certificate was filed before the first birthday, then a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth
could be issued upon testimony of an adult (including the subject person [i.e. the birth child as an
adult]) if the Office of the Lieutenant Governor was satisfied that a person was born in Hawaii, provided
that the person had attained the age of one year. (See Section 57-40 of the Territorial Public Health
Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961.) In 1955 the “secretary
of the Territory” was in charge of this procedure. In 1960 it was transferred to the Office of the
Lieutenant Governor (“the lieutenant governor, or his secretary, or such other person as he may
designate or appoint from his office” §338-41 [in 1961]).

Jane

Obama
In 1982, the vital records law was amended to create a fifth kind of “original birth certificate”. Under
Act 182 H.B. NO. 3016-82, “Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the
director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that the proof has been
submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the
Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at
least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.” In this way “state policies and
procedures” accommodate even “children born out of State” (this is the actual language of Act 182) with
an “original birth certificate on record.” So it is even possible that the birth certificate referred to by Dr
Fukino is of the kind specified in Act 182. This possibility cannot be dismissed because such a
certificate certainly satisfies Dr Fukino’s statement that “I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i,
along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type
of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen.
Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.” If this is
the case, Dr Fukino would have perpetrated so unusually disgusting a deception that I find it practically
incredible (and I greatly doubt that anyone could be that shameless). On the other hand, if the original
birth certificate is of types 2, 3, or 4, Dr Fukino’s statement would be only somewhat less deceptive and
verbally tricky. I only bring up this possibility to show how cleverly hedged and “lawyered” and
basically worthless Dr Fukino’s statement is.
Sections 57-8, 9, 18, 19, 20 & 40 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act explain why Barack
Obama has refused to release the original vault birth certificate. If the original certificate were the
standard BC1 type of birth certificate, he would have allowed its release and brought the controversy to
a quick end. But if the original certificate is of the other kinds, then Obama would have a very good
reason not to release the vault birth certificate. For if he did, then the tape recording of Obama’s Kenyan
grandmother asserting that she was present at his birth in Kenya becomes far more important. As does
the Kenyan ambassador’s assertion that Barack Obama was born in Kenya, as well as the sealing of all
government and hospital records relevant to Obama by the Kenyan government. And the fact that
though there are many witnesses to Ann Dunham’s presence on Oahu from Sept 1960 to Feb 1961, there
are no witnesses to her being on Oahu from March 1961 to August 1962 when she returned from Seattle
and the University of Washington. No Hawaiian physicians, nurses, or midwives have come forward
with any recollection of Barack Obama’s birth.
The fact that Obama refuses to release the vault birth certificate that would instantly clear up this matter
almost certainly indicates that the vault birth certificate is probably a BC2 or possibly a BC3.
It is almost certainly a BC 3 or even a BC 4 if the “Certification of Live Birth” posted on the Daily Kos
blog and the fightthesmears.com website by the Obama campaign is a forgery. Ron Polarik has made
what several experts claim to be a cogent case that it is a forgery. There have been a couple of attempts
to refute his argument and Polarik has replied to the most extensive of them. I do not claim expertise in
this area, but I think it would be best for journalists and politicians to familiarize themselves with the
arguments on both sides before they casually dismiss Polarik’s position without taking the trouble to
understand it.


There is more - let me know if you want it, as I'm not really following this

Captain Hate

Captain H, I don't remember Lily's parents (I almost typed Libby) at all, but I was 18 when I read it and new to Society (novels).

Ralph, I'm quite impressed that you read it at 18 and retained anything because I'd have been rolling my eyes the entire time; assuming I'd have even picked it up considering all the carp I read back then....

clarice

Jane, I posted a link to that piece yesterday. I'll post it again for those who want to send it around without cutting and pasting from your three part post:

http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2697

Ralph L

The woman whose desk I was using had left it behind when she went on her honeymoon.

It was a boring job. I'd take a bus to the Pentagon, catch the Metro to Farragut West, walk 5 blocks to 20th and M, eat two donuts and a can of Coke, sit down, and promptly fall asleep.

It was so silly that they pushed her from the top tier for riding in a carriage with a married man (as if they were alone). The green eyed monster, I guess.

I prefer Wharton's short stories, which became increasingly darker as she aged.

MJW

Can anyone provide a link to Obama's COLB with the certificate number visible? The only copy I have has it backed out, but many comments have discussed the number.

I suspect the number is stamped by the registrar at the time it's processed rather than pre-stamped. If you look at the twins' BCs, you'll notice the numbers are in different locations and are rather uneven. Obviously they're hand stamped, very likely with one of those stamps that automatically advances with each stamping. They could still have pre-stamped forms using such a stamp, but I'd think that some more automatic and precise method would have been used that would have at least resulted in the numbers being in the same place.

Curiously, Obama's COLB lists the "Date Filed by Registrar" as Aug. 8, 1961, while the twins' "Accepted by Local Registrar" and "Accepted by Registrar General" dates are Aug. 11, 1961. Given that Obama was supposedly born at the same hospital as the twins, and born a day earlier, this adds to the sequence-of-events mystery.

MJW

blacked out, that is.

Redacted black stuff, anyway.

Hey, can't you see right through blacked out stuff?

Jane

Thanks Clarice.

bad

I love Wharton even though I can't imagine abiding by the ridiculous social mores of the time. Wharton did an excellent job of exposing the idiocy of the New York social scene.

MJW

One more thing. Obviously the fact that Obama's BC was registered earlier than the twins' is consistent with the order of birth, what's odd is the order of the certificate numbers given the registration dates.

An additional interesting fact is that there were 17,558 resident births in Hawaii in 1961, which is 48.1 resident births per day. Aug. 4th is the 216th day of the year, so assuming a constant birth rate, there should have been about 10391 births by that day. The twins' certificate numbers are 10637 and 10638, which is fairly consistent, assuming a few non-resident births.

Parking Lot

((Can anyone provide a link to Obama's COLB with the certificate number visible? ))

try doing an image search on Google for Obama COLB

Ralph L

MJW, Hawaii doesn't really have seasons, so people boink at a constant rate.
Science.

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Wilson/Plame