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July 27, 2009

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Peter UK

"What I do want to figure out, however, is a question that's been rattling around my head for something like a year now."

It would appear that Josh Marshall has little inside his cranium to impede its progress.

William Teach

Josh doesn't seem to understand the difference between citizenship and "natural born." There are laws on the books about it, because it was somewhat vague. The laws are what would have allowed McCain to be president if he hadn't blown it with his "I'm going to suspend my campaign...." foolishness.

People are considered natural born if they are born in the 50 states, US territories, and certain other designated areas. A child born to illegal aliens in California is considered natural born. A child born to 2 US citizens who traveled to Canada is simply a US citizen, not eligible to be president (kinda silly, but, hey, that's the law.)

Congress could easily fix this issue for the future by taking up legislation to define it in concrete.

yo

1 we don't know for sure where o was born.

2 we don't know for sure what a natural born cit is.

3 the msm, after delving into every single aspect of bush, palin, even joe the plumbers lives, don't seem to want to find out. And, they are going to great and untold lengths to try to humiliate the people that do.

4 as the saying goes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's going on.

If we ever do find out answers to these questions concerning obama, and they show he's not a natural born citizen, we should all spend the next ten years doing everything possible to show the world the motives and tactics that these 'ridiculers' used to promote the biggest fraud in history.

verner

Refresh my memory. What was Marshall saying about the TANG memos? Thought so.

Pofarmer

OT, yeah, I know, it'll probably get lost, but, maybe we're having birth certificate fatigue. I've mentioned before that my wife is a nurse. Just having a talk about the way the docs are treated and paid. FWIW the nursing staff just took a 3% paycut on top of a cut in benefits. The ER docs are now sourced through an "Agency". Now, not only does this ad another layer of cost, because the "Agency" has to be paid, but it makes those docs "out of network" on our health insurance! The docs in our own ER are "out of network" for insurance from the same hospital. But, heh, it gets better. Many of the newer docs are paid "on salary" from the hospital, doesn't matter what they do, they still get paid the same. Procedures don't matter, outcomes don't matter. I also found out, that now, the hospital is supplying office space and staff for the newer docs. Before, all this was supplied by the physician, and was one of the reasons that they always made so much, and could justify it, because they had the expense and risk of running an office. Now they aren't even doing THAT, but they still get paid the same. Also, Doc's being sourced from nearby hospitals are taking patients to hospitals where they will get paid more for doing surgeries and procedures. They are gonna kill small hospitals. I don't know where the board is on any of this. There's lot's lot's more, but that's the tip of it. We can't keep running the system as a gold plated wealth creator for Dr's.

bio mom

Bull!! ER docs wealthy? Family docs wealthy? Join the real world. To review: after 4 years of college with rigorous study just to be able to get a fighting chance to get into med school (acceptance rate about 43%), there are 4 unbelievably difficult medical school years, accumulating massive debt in the bargain to pay for it. Then follows a minimum of 3 residency years, sometimes 8 in some specialties, payed at lackey wages (currently about 45K). Then you can practice medicine. So give me a break!! Yes, let's change the system to pay doctors less so we can give illegal aliens and 20 year olds free medical care. Great idea.

Pofarmer

I'm sorry bio mom, sure, they have a few tough years. BIG DEAL. They get compensated for it EXTREMELY WELL. $1000 a night for "on call" just in case the Hospital calls?

Charlie (Colorado)

A child born to 2 US citizens who traveled to Canada is simply a US citizen, not eligible to be president (kinda silly, but, hey, that's
the law.)

Um, I don't think so.

I'm sorry bio mom, sure, they have a few tough years. BIG DEAL. They get compensated for it EXTREMELY WELL. $1000 a night for "on call" just in case the Hospital calls?

Po, seeing as I did my PhD at Duke Med and attended all the classroom work for an MD degree, I happen to know quite a few doctors. Accordingly, I'd like to see you document this, as my quick survey uniformly came up with "Hah. I wish."

Rob Crawford

the msm, after delving into every single aspect of bush, palin, even joe the plumbers lives, don't seem to want to find out.

The press showed an inordinate lack of curiosity into every aspect of Obama's life. Even once they were forced to look at, for example, "Rev." Wright, they down-played it and tried to turn Obama's "nemo culpa" race speech into the Sermon on the Mount.

And, they are going to great and untold lengths to try to humiliate the people that do.

Well, yes. That happens when people point out the emperor has no clothes -- the emperor and his courtiers lash back rather nastily.

Dave Weigel

Jesus, Tom, how many times do people have to tell you that "the grandparents and the mother" had nothing to do with the 1961 newspaper birth announcements?

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--I don't know where the board is on any of this.--

Just a quick note before wifey and I leave this morning.

I would prefer the guy who is prescribing potentially fatal drugs to me and/or is prying a piece of my skull off to poke around in my brain or slicing my heart open to be as well compensated as possible.

Toodleoo.

Semanticleo

Tom is not afraid to waste his time looking like Orly Taitz.

Courage!

& Stay with this issue!!!!

Posted by: tjproudamerican | July 25, 2009 at 07:02 PM

Did you ever think your popularity would rise to such a level, Maguire?

clarice

Are we all supposed to stand up now and say "I'm Socrates?" Or --um--was that Spartacus? (I'm old and get names mixed up.)

clarice

A thousand bold apologies.

clarice


Trying to get unboldened.

boris

The constitution was not written for judges, lawyers, or legislators, it was written for the people. Since the NBC is in the constitution that means the people have a constitutional right to know the circumstances of Obama's birth.

It's just that simple.

clarice

Trying again

boris

Unbold! (IE anyway)

boris

Clarice, a tag fix doesn't show until the page is refreshed. Your 1st fix worked even though it didn't display that way.

Semanticleo

"It's just that simple."

It's easy for you to say.........

Semanticleo

"It's just that simple."

It's easy for you to say.........

William Teach

bold off(?)

Say, Charlie, care to expand on your assertion? "Um, I don't think so." is not much of a cogent argument.

Captain Hate

Don't go poking around for my imaginary son's birth certificate, wingerz, or certificate of imaginary birth. Leave it alone or I'll do some more creative sockpuppeting on PUKe which I know fooled all you gullible wingerz.

Porchlight

IE looks fine as usual...though I always enjoy your bold assertions, clarice. ::grin::

Semanticleo

See I can do it to anybody, wingerz.

William Teach

Will this work?

boris

Some browsers can't be fixed after a dropped tag close. IE has been fine since Clarice's first fix. Firefox won't fix until there is a new page.

Jane

Which is why we are all desperately trying to get to a new page by posting inane stuff like this.

William Teach

Must be some sort of Moveable Type thing. Can usually fix in Firefox with Wordpress.

I blame Bush :)

royf

I blame birthers, Man I love these threads.

MayBee

Bush 43 stole the election.
Bush went AWOL in the TANG.
Bush had something to do with 9/11.
Bush lied about Saddam/Iraq (even though many Dems and President Clinton said the same thing)

All of these things were worthy of great speculation over the last eight years. It seems to me Americans tend to speculate about the Presidents they wish were not in office.
Why the Birther thing is more verboten than the rest of it, I don't know.

But once again, I don't know why people are not upset that there is absolutely no mechanism to enforce the three Constitutional qualifications are met.

Semanticleo

We "Birfers" have the facts on our side."

G.Gordon Liddy

Semanticleo

Pure entertainment.

Watching you guys fumble for Obama chokeholds reminds me of Lucy and Ethyl making candies on the assembly line............

William Teach

How many comments are necessary to get a new page?

Don't forget the Valerie Plame idiocy.
Bush was doing cocaine.
Bush was drinking again.
Iraq was about stealing the oil
Bush was tearing up the constitution

So many more conspiracies.

Rob Crawford

"See I can do it to anybody, wingerz."

Yes, but you can't do it well.

Semanticleo

"Bush 43 stole the election.
Bush went AWOL in the TANG.
Bush had something to do with 9/11.
Bush lied about Saddam/Iraq (even though many Dems and President Clinton said the same thing)"

You should have mentioned Cheney shooting his friend in the face, instead of salient issues.

Republican salient issues....

1.) Obama's born in Kenya

2.) He called police 'stupid'.

Yeah. I can see how you think BDS and OBS spring from the same angst.

RichatUF

Maybee-

Dig up the papers Obama filed when he formed his exploratory committee? They would have gotten him on the primary ballot in the states. FEC, I think.

MayBee

You must have a different definition of "salient", Seman.

Semanticleo

"a different definition of "salient", Seman."

Apparently so, MayBee.

Rob Crawford

2.) He called police 'stupid'.

He unnecessarily injected himself into an issue, and in the process impugned the character of innocent men and women. In the course of doing so, he cast them -- without evidence -- as bigots more interested in acting out their racist antagonisms than doing their job.

His motives for doing so appear to either be out of his own history with that police department -- over a dozen tickets he eventually paid -- or because he assumes the existence of racism even in the absence of evidence. The first shows a dangerously petty mindset; the second shows a blindly hateful mindset.

(Another motive, that his answer, including the "stupidly" line, were calculated to distract from his failure to get socialized medicine, casts him and his administration as piddling little children throwing a tantrum to distract from making a mess.)

It's time for the left to admit it -- Obama's a racist. The rest of us knew it when we realized the type of "church" he attended.

(It's rather odd that the left had no issue with the racist filth pumped out by "Rev" Wright, but tried to attack Palin because an African Christian issued a prayer for protection against witchcraft at her church. Tolerance bad, hatred good. Weird world you folks want to build.)

William Teach

Notice that the argument against the birthers tends to be "you're stupid!" Meanwhile, ever since 9/11, we have had to come up with factual, cogent arguments against the Truthers.

Danube of Thought

Any person who is a citizen at birth is a natural born citizen, regardless of where he is born. That is why George Romney and John McCain were eligible to be president.

Semanticleo

"Another motive"

I always thought Cheney got the shitty end of the stick when he peppered that old guy's face with buckshot. He didn't mean to do it. He was aiming for the dove hiding in it's cage. If the dove had done it's job and had just sit still, like it was supposed to, his friend wouldna got shot.

royf

Well KKKleo they were hunting quail not dove, and as anyone who has ever hunted quail will tell you it is not uncommon to be peppered while doing it. But I wouldn't expect a idiot such as yourself to know the difference.

Semanticleo

"they were hunting quail not dove'

I'll give you that, but I don't think it changes Cheney's motivation.

Rob Crawford

I always thought Cheney got the shitty end of the stick when he peppered that old guy's face with buckshot.

Who the hell would hunt for quail with buckshot?

royf

Like I said KKKleo your to stupid to know the difference.

Semanticleo


"Who the hell would hunt for quail with buckshot?"

True 'birfers' CornCob and Roy. It still don't change the story, do it?

But you want the LO_O_O_ONG form, just like you want 'birdshot' and 'quail'.

Republican Scatalologists....

Rick

My criticism of Cheney was that he managed to shoot--and only wound--one of the few lawyers not a Democratic Party mandarin.

Cordially...

Semanticleo

Just because Obama is circling the pan doesn't mean he is a busted flush.This one is a floater.

William Teach

Sorry, Danube, but, by law and legal precedent, that is incorrect. The primary law is still the Naturalization Act of 1795, which removed "natural born" from the previous law, meaning that, except for certain areas, those born outside the 50 states and US territories are considered citizens, but no "natural born."

bio mom

Profarmer:(See aroundd 9:45) Had work to do. Back now. So, what is your problem with this? Nurse envy?? What about what you pay your plumber to unstick your drains?? What about what lawyers bill? What about what Derek Jeter makes per hour? Why pick on the doctors? They are the ONE group in all of this that we absolutely CANNOT due without. Sorry that you don't like it that we try to compensate them well.

Semanticleo

'Republican Scatatologists'

Redundant......

Danube of Thought

The requirements for citizenship and the very definition thereof have changed since the Constitution was ratified in 1788. Congress first recognized the citizenship of children born to U.S. parents overseas on March 26, 1790, under the first naturalization law: "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."


Covers the child of the couple in Canada. Covers the child of the couple on vacation in Italy. End of this part of the story.

Rob Crawford

I'm not a "birfer", 'cleo. I realize you don't give a rat's ass about the truth of anything you say -- you're all about getting your Hate on -- but you should at least get your facts straight.

It still don't change the story, do it?

Yes, it "do". Take two people, have one take a some birdshot to the face and the other take some buckshot to the face. One will have a few scars, the other will -- if he's lucky -- need major reconstructive surgery.

But, hey, it's just semantics, and who cares about that, right?

William Teach

But, that 1790 law was updated and removed "natural born" in 1795, Danube.

Regardless, what is so tough about Obama providing the actual long form, the Certificate of birth, rather than just the Certification?

Semanticleo

I always wanted to be a turd,I have the talent,the looks,the smell and the disposition.
Sometimes nature is cruel,but why shouldn't I try to better myself?

Semanticleo

"it's just semantics"

No. It's semntics when two separate understandings when it changes the story.

What you are doing is something called
scatatology...but I don't expect you to understand the nuance.

Rob Crawford

No. It's semntics when two separate understandings when it changes the story.

Do you understand English?

What you are doing is something called
scatatology...but I don't expect you to understand the nuance.

Well, I'm bothering to respond to you, you're always full of shit, so I guess I see your point.

Semanticleo

"No. It's semntics when two separate understandings when it changes the story.

What you are doing is something called
scatatology..."

Sorry what a stupid illiterate cretin I am,can't even string a sentence together now.

Yrs Semntic.

Semanticleo

"so I guess I see your point."

You might want to look up the definitions of 'change' and 'story', or remain as ignorant as you always have been.

Semanticleo

"Well, I'm bothering to respond to you, you're always full of shit, so I guess I see your point."

Of course I'm full of shit,that is why i want to be a turd.
That is why I support Obama.

Semanticleo

"I'm not a "birfer", 'cleo"

Well, Corncob, it certainly seems so. Or do you have strong opinions to the contrary?

Please elucidate.....

Rick

Obama a turd in the bedpan? I can accept that description. Thanks, S-cleo.

Cordially...

So full of shit you can smell it on my breath

I don't believe in no 'birfer's' either, but I will facetiously join in on the Obama bashin' because, not only do I not have anything to do, I have nothing of import to say.

Danube of Thought

"U.S. District Judge William Alsup ruled late Tuesday that the law at the time of McCain's birth automatically granted citizenship to offspring of U.S. citizens.

"McCain's parents were both citizens when McCain was born Aug. 29, 1936, in the Panama Canal Zone, a U.S. territory where his father was stationed with the U.S. Navy.

"Alsup said Congress passed a law the following year specifically to 'remove any doubt as to persons in Sen. McCain's circumstances in the Canal Zone,' thus 'retroactively rendering Sen. McCain a natural born citizen, if he was not one already.'"

There is no legal precedent contrary to the proposition that person who are citizens at birth are natural-born citizens within the meaning of Article II of the constitution.

Geek, Esq.

The 'short form' COLB is per se legal proof of his citizenship. Absent evidence of fraud (what TM provides is a dreamed-up scenario with literally no grounding in fact) to the contrary, anyone demanding more can suck it.

boris

The constitution doesn't just say "citizen". Also says "natural born".

That's the constitution sport. Public right to know and all that rot.

Semanticleo

"The 'short form' COLB is per se legal proof of his citizenship. Absent evidence of fraud (what TM provides is a dreamed-up scenario with literally no grounding in fact) to the contrary, anyone demanding more can suck it."

Perhaps,but who is he,the man with his finger on the button?

TOPSECRETK9

that the child of an American citizen, even if born abroad, isn't him or herself a natural born American citizen.

Really could care less about this but I am almost certain the crazy lefties were peddling this about McCain for months. He was born out of country -- they were peddling this along with other crazy conspiracies they made up like he plagiarized his own speech or he stole the story of the stick in sand when it turns out the person they thought he stole it from made it.

Crazy crap they throw at the wall. Juet like all the wacko Trig Truthers on the left Josh coward Marshall convenient ignores.

boris

Italiacto!

Linda

For the sake of the facts, let's get the facts out.

The address in the birth announcement was the home of an English Dept professor at the university; Mr & Mrs Orland Lefforge.

Lefforge studied at Univ of Ia(same as the Dunham clan of that day) and his mentor was none other than Cloward of the Cloward and Piven strategy.

Both Lefforges have passed away, however, interviews of their neighbors who have lived in the neighborhood since 1960 and earlier have gone on record that there was never a mixed race couple living at that address, and especially, there was no young couple with a balck baby. They also went on record as stating the area that the Dunhams lived in, which proved they knew or at least knew of the Dunhams. Most likely from meeting the dunjams when the they visited the Lefforges at their home.

There ya go: Concrete Proof the cover-up went way back. You know, birds of a feather.

Linda

I apologize for my spelling in the previous post, and just one more point I need to clear up..

Cloward was a professor at the U of Ia and Lefforge was his student.

Danube of Thought

"The constitution doesn't just say 'citizen'. Also says 'natural born'".


True. And it doesn't define the term. The authorities today primarily agree that it means "a citizen at the moment of birth." (That's the definition the federal judge in McCain's case applied.)

You may rest very well assured that no American court will ever hold that a person who was an American citizen at birth is ineligible for the presidency by reason of being born outside the United States. Ever. Won't happen. Never has, and never will.

Porchlight

Interesting, Linda. I knew that there was question as to the address in the birth announcement and whether Ann and Barack Sr. had really lived there, but I hadn't heard anything about the Lefforges.

It sounds like Obama's parents gave a false address, since the info from the hospital is what was placed in the birth announcement (or so people tell me).

My guess is that Ann lived with her parents all along and the marriage was a sham. If true, it's nothing Barack Jr. should have to take responsiblity for, but it is a bit of a no-no to give a false address when providing official information for state documentation.

boris

True. And it doesn't define the term

My claim is the presence of that line in the constitution gives us the right to know the circumstances of his birth, no matter what they are, no matter what the legal implications may or may not be.

Please do not straw dummy such a simple argument.

Semanticleo

"You may rest very well assured that no American court will ever hold that a person who was an American citizen at birth is ineligible for the presidency by reason of being born outside the United States. Ever. Won't happen. Never has, and never will."


Doesn't matter. It is perceptions that count in politics.Look what it did for Marie Antoinette.

boris

Aha, there's the straw dummy now!

Linda

About that being born abroad thing:

from the most current issue of the federal foereign affairs manual:

Department of State's Foreign Affairs Manual at 7FAM1116.1-4(c) states; http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/c22712.htm

"Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to U.S. jurisdiction and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."


It is well established by precedent that children born abroad of United States citizens are not granted citizenship by the Constitution, but rather by statute. The 14th Amendment states:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States

John McCain was neither born on United States soil, nor was he naturalized.
He is a citizen at birth by statute. This is discussed in the Foreign Affairs Manual:

7 FAM 1131.6-3 Not Citizens by “Naturalization”

Section 201(g) NA and section 301(g) INA (formerly section 301(a)(7) INA) both specify that naturalization is

"the conferring of nationality of a state upon a person after birth."

Clearly, then, Americans who acquired their citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens are not considered naturalized citizens under either act. (Emphasis added.)

The Constitution confers three types of citizen status:

- "natural born citizen", but only with regard to eligibility to hold the office of President

- "citizen" to those born in the United States via the 14th Amendment

- "citizen" to those naturalized in the United States via the 14th Amendment

McCain is none of the above. He wasn't born on United States
soil and he wasn't naturalized in the United States. Instead,
McCain may claim citizenship from 8 USC 1403(a):

“Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.”

McCain is in the class of citizens who obtain their citizenship at birth, but not from the Constitution, but rather federal statute.

In Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815, 828 (1971). The Supreme Court stated:

...[C]children born abroad of Americans are not citizens within the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment.”… “To this day, the Constitution makes no provision for jus sanguinis, or citizenship by descent... “Our law in this area follows English concepts with an acceptance of the jus soli, that is, that the place of birth governs citizenship status except as modified by statute.” Id. at 828.

So, not being born on US soil, McCain cannot be a "natural born citizen".

The Foreign Affairs Manual further weighs in on the issue as follows:

7 FAM 1131.6-2 Eligibility for Presidency

a. It has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural born citizen within the meaning of Article II of the Constitution and, therefore, eligible for the Presidency.

b. Section 1, Article II, of the Constitution states, in relevant part that “No Person except a natural born Citizen...shall be eligible for the Office of President,"

c. The Constitution does not define "natural born".

The “Act to establish an Uniform Rule of Naturalization”, enacted March 26, 1790, (1 Stat.103,104) provided that, “...the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born ... out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States.”

d. This statute is no longer operative, however, and its formula is not included in modern nationality statutes. In any event, the fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant to a statute does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a citizen for Constitutional purposes. (Emphasis added.)

you can read all the corrupt details at my website:

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/whiplash-syndrome-feverishly-sweeping-the-nation/

http://constitutionallyspeaking.wordpress.com/barack-obama%e2%80%99s-eligibility-an-intelligence-investigator%e2%80%99s-june-10-2009-report/

McCain, Clinton and Obama were all involved in the cover-up, thus the reason Clinton and McCain could not use the ctizenship issue to attack Obama.

again, birds of a feather

political gains trump the constitution in all their eyes!!!

Danube of Thought

"Please do not straw dummy such a simple argument."

It wasn't my intention to straw dummy your argument. I must say, I don't really understand your argument concerning right to know. I thought you were making a different point.

Pofarmer

They would have gotten him on the primary ballot in the states. FEC, I think.

Would that be the FEC that didn't have a quorum because Obama wouldn't appoint one?

boris

"I don't really understand your argument concerning right to know."

If there is a birth circumstance condition in the constitution that implies to me that the birth circumstances of the POTUS should be known to the public.

Before whatever standard for "natural born" should be applied, it is necessary to know the detials for application. You seem to be arguing that the details are moot, therefore fugitaboudit. My claim, moot or not, we have the right to decide that for ourselves.

Linda

In Senate Res 511 on April 10, 2008:

Leahy states:

Whereas, John Sidney McCain, being born to parents who were US citizens...

take note, they refer to both parents. The congressional committee records over the course of US history, dating back to the beginning ALL state both parents must be US citizens.

If only one parent had to be a citizen, then we can look for the love child of some dictator or his off-spring, like castro, chavez or how about an ahmadinejad, who had an affair to be a possible president..I DON"T THINK SO!!!!

The founding fathers were very smart to require both parents to be US citizens.

But if your ok with that possible scenero sometime in American history, then keep bellieving your fiction of history.

boris

Son of Castro aside ...

Suppose an officer enters a bar and sees what appears to be a young lady having an alcoholic beverage.

"Miss, may I see your ID"

The person refuses, claims to be 22 and has the proof. Doesn't want anybody there to know she is actually a he. Is that valid justification for refusing to provide the document?

Danube of Thought

The congress felt differently from Leahy when it enacted 8 US Code Section 1401, declaring that the following (among others) are to be deemed citizens at the time of their birth:

"(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years..."

Peter UK

boris,

How good is the "But she said she was sixteen" plea?

MayBee

What boris says.

Linda

Danube,

I was replying to the case against McCain, but since you brought it up...

I am not at all convinvced of the kenyan birth, I repeated write against.

What Congress did last year was to admit they knew, the definition of natural born citizen as it pertains to Article II Section I Clause 5 fo the constitution,

the candidate must have had "2" citizen parents.


Obama never could have met this, yet he was a co-sponsor of the non-binding resolution...it is NOT law, the paper it is written on is worth more the words. Therefore it is nothing more than an opinion.

Period.

Congress does not interpret the constitution, the supreme court does!

Danube of Thought

"Congress does not interpret the constitution, the supreme court does."

True. And as I have stated here ad nauseum, neither the Supreme Court nor any other US court has ever held that a person born abroad to two citizen parents (or one, for that matter) is not a natural-born citizen for purposes of eligibility for the presidency.

MayBee

Just compare the laxness in verifying this constitutional provision vs. Obama having the oath re administered to him because the wording was off.

Danube of Thought

"'So, not being born on US soil, McCain cannot be a 'natural born citizen'".

That conclusion does not follow from what preceded it.

There are two schools of thought concerning the meaning of "natural born" as used in Article II: (1) It means "born on US soil"; (2) it means "a citizen at birth."

The federal judge in the McCain case relied on interpretation (2). So do a majority of the scholastic commentaries. Given the rationale of the eligibility clause at the time it was written, I find interpretation (2) to be far more persuasive than (1). Others may disagree.

I think that at this point I have said about all that I think is worth saying on this subject, but if someone comes forward and makes this, that or the other erroneous assertion about the law, I probably won't be able to help myself.

Danube of Thought

Here I go again:

The 14th Amendment was written eighty years after Article II. It does not purport to, and in fact does not, clarify or modify Article II in any way. The applicable rule of construction would say, "when the framers intended to discuss 'natural born' citizens, they used the term 'natural born.'" The term does not appear in the 14th Amendment.

If the only way a person could become eligible for the presidency was to acquire citizenship pursuant to the 14th Amendment, then I suppose no one would have been eligible for the office for the first eighty years of US history.

Linda

Danube: "The federal judge in the McCain case relied on interpretation"

huh?????

What federal judge? According to congressional committee records, the only official on record as to the definition of NBC is Chertoff of DHS.

That federal judge arguement has been de-bunked for over a year, yet the LSM still use it because people are too lazy to actually go read the official record on file for themselves.

boris

"What federal judge?'

WTF? Are you kidding me. It doesn't matter which freaking judge, don't you understand semantics and mathemetology?

Danube of Thought

United States District Judge William Alsup (N.D. Cal.). I quoted from his order dismissing a 2008 lawsuit brought to challenge McCain's eligibility.

Persons who are to be deemed citizens at birth are described in Title 8 U.S. Code Section 1401.

Linda

yes, he deemed him a citizen, but the judge failed to the extra mile to deem McCain a "natural born" citizen and that is the citizenship in question.

Danube of Thought

He deemed him to have been a citizen at birth, and thus to be eligible for the presidency under Article II's requirement for natural-born citizenship. I can explain this to you, but I can't understand it for you. You're on your own there.

Brittancus

A battle brewing over legalizing 20 plus illegal immigrants and their family members, is not just a political war that will have dire consequences for just American workers, but for the whole population that pays taxes? The testimonial of Robert Rector an outspoken analyst with the Heritage Foundation, that legalizing the lawbreakers will cost $2.5 Trillion dollars in escalating taxes, just to pay for retirement and pensions? Because of the decades of indifference of Washington, we are now stuck with a massive occupation of foreign nationals and their families. Now the lawmakers are looking for an easy way out. For all those years of businesses who have intentionally seek cheap labor, thereby dumping the whole financial burden on every US taxpayer.

Their years of lobbying less reputable members of the House and Senate, has paid off admirable. Business have lined their pockets and never paid their illegal employed labor any health care, schooling for the children or the massive welfare benefits? Upcoming is President Obama's promise to the countless numbers, who have invaded our country must not happen. These politicians have compromised our quality of life, our language and our culture. Under pressure from many open border globalist organization our politicians have murdered many immigration enforcement laws. E-Verify--a composite of the SAVE ACT was almost shelved, as they are now straining at the leash to weaken local police action 287(g), the NO MATCH LETTER and even ICE raids.

Currently we are teetering on the edge of OVERPOPULATION, with even our government acknowledging our numbers will rise to 440 million in just forty years. Our country can do without Federal mandates that includes free medial care, education, low income housing--Section 8, food stamps, just a name of few free government handouts. All these benefits should go to American families who are in need. GOOGLE--about the growing chaos in Europe from the importation of legal and illegal immigrants. GOOGLE--the disguised costs that are forced on taxpayers, not disclosed by the media or Congress. America is in survival mode now with nearly 10.5 percent jobless, home foreclosures, car repossessions, health care and more.

USE YOUR VOTING POWER TO CONTACT YOUR POLITICIANS AT 202-224-3121 Believe it! Your voices are having a crucial effect.? Support for the bi-partisan SAVE Act, which will expand E-Verify and protect American Workers! We must focus on the cornerstone to this major problem-the jobs that attract illegal aliens. It would phase in a requirement for every employer to use the electronic E-Verify system. We must also be aware that the Democrats are ready to open the gates to our nation, once a path to citizenship is announced. GOOGLE--the facts at NUMBERSUSA, AMERICANPATROL

Update: one of the authoritative Capitol Hill publications suggests that minority Caucuses and all those here undocumented, is quite pleased with the way the current House health plan will provide coverage for illegal aliens. YES! To government health care for Americans. Definitely NO! Free health care for those here illegally?

Linda

I dare you to refute this:

Obama was a Constitutional law professor and Harvard Law graduate running for President. He was fully aware of the most on point US Supreme Court holding which discussed the meaning of “natural born citizen” – Minor v. Happersett – wherein the Supreme Court stated:

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of theirparents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

In the Minor case, the person wasn’t running for President of the US so the court didn’t have to reach the nbc issue. But the court did note that the foreign nationality of a native born person’s parents could effect that native born person’s natural-born citizen status.

Furthermore, the court also stated that the definition of “natural-born citizen” was not found in the Constitution so “Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.” Why is this important?

BECAUSE SCOTUS ISSUED THE MINOR HOLDING IN 1874 WHILE THE 14TH AMENDMENT WAS ADOPTED IN 1868.

The most predominant argument that Obama is Constitutionally eligible to be President relies on the wording of the 14th Amendment which states that a person born on US soil and subject to the jurisdiction thereof is a US citizen. But the 14th Amendment does not say that every person born on US soil is a “natural-born citizen”, it just says “citizen”. Obama supporters have argued that 14th Amendment citizenship makes one eligible to be President and satisfies the natural born- citizen requirements of Article 2 Section 1. This is the “native born” = “natural born” argument.

The 14th Amendment was adopted in 1868. But the Minor decision was issued in 1874 wherein SCOTUS said:

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.

The 14th Amendment had already been part of the Constitution for six years when SCOTUS made that statement. SCOTUS clearly and unequivocally states in Minor that the 14th Amendment does NOT define who is a “natural-born citizen”. Anybody who says the 14th Amendment does define “natural-born citizen” is lying and/or ignorant as to the Supreme Court’s holding in Minor – the most on point discussion of the definition of the Article 2 Section 1 “natural-born citizen” requirement for POTUS.

Jane

I wouldn't give the presidebt much credence in the whole constitutional law thing. After all given his remarks last Wednesday he clearly doesn't know that everyone is entitled to a fair and impartial jury - unless of course he didn't care.

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