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August 06, 2009

Comments

Foo Bar

Dan Rather is still unemployed

Not true.

PeterUK

Fake but accurate. If Obama released his records,this is what they would look like,No?

Mark O

Don't you just hate it when they spoof the truth.

Danube of Thought

What is the support for the contention that, in 1961, a Kenyan court in a divorce proceeding would be likely to award custody of an infant to an absentee Kenyan father over an American mother?

What is the support for the contention that, if a Kenyan court had done so, an American court would have enforced the judgment and compelled the child's return to Kenya? (Think Jomo Kenyatta. Think Mau Mau.)

PaulL

DoT,

If you want to be Obama's lawyer, just send him a resume directly.

clarice

I've had the unfortunate experience of handling two international child custody disputes, DoT, and the way it generally happens is that the partner who doesn't have actual custody gets them a passport from his home country and takes off with them or keeps them when they are on an enforced visit and then it is quite hard to get them back.

Jim Treacher

Dave Weigel lying on behalf of a leftist politician? Unprecedented.

clarice

P.S. DoT this was the most interesting one--I handled it at the district court level . I had left the firm by the time of the appeal but most of the arguments had been made in briefs to the lower court. It's a really intersting case ..

clarice

http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/420543

Oops--forgot the cite.

Ignatz

--Not true.--

Yes, Dan found the only other Texan (a carpetbagger admittedly) who is as big a horse's ass as he is, Mark Cuban, to give him a job.

Tom Maguire

What is the support for the contention that, in 1961, a Kenyan court in a divorce proceeding would be likely to award custody of an infant to an absentee Kenyan father over an American mother?

What is the support for the contention that the father would be any more absentee than most fathers in the early 60's? Suppose Barack Sr. argued that he was married (to someone else, natch) and could provide the proper home and cultural experience for his black Kenyan first-born son?

Would you really have advised the Dunhams to roll dem bones and see what a Kenyan judge decides? Geez, don't bill them for that advice.

My impression is that even today, a first son is a big deal in many cultures.

Now, a more obvious objection is that presumably Barack Sr. would know that the birth certificate from Hawaii was fake. That would be important in a Kenyan setting.

However, if the Dunhams could manage to have the early skirmishing in the US, away from the Kenyan witnesses, the fake certificate might easily withstand a challenge - look at all the "lawyers" passing through here willing to tell me that a state-issued document is self-authenticating.

In which case a US judge might decide that sending a US citizen off to Africa made no sense.

PeterUK

"What is the support for the contention that, in 1961, a Kenyan court in a divorce proceeding would be likely to award custody of an infant to an absentee Kenyan father over an American mother?"

Just a little info on this. Barack Hussein Obama senior was a Muslim. It is not uncommon,here at least,for a Muslim father in mixed marriages to take the child back to the "Old Country". Mothers have the very devil of a job getting the child back,if at all. Law or no law.
Similarly girls who reach puberty are often spirited off back home to be married off.

Charlie (Colorado)

PaulL, if you can't cope with DoT disagreeing with you, why don't you join the Democratic Party.

Danube of Thought

Thanks, Clarice--a genuine tragedy.

Ignatz

--What is the support for the contention that, in 1961, a Kenyan court in a divorce proceeding would be likely to award custody of an infant to an absentee Kenyan father over an American mother?--

Presumably Barack Sr., being a native Kenyan, would have a better idea who to approach with the bribe.

MJW

Though the custody issue may provide a valid motive for falsely claiming Obama was born in Hawaii, as Ezra Klein said in his birther rebuttal: "The big reveal here is...what? That Barack Obama's American mother desperately wanted to be certain that her infant child had American citizenship?"

Sounds like a pretty good motive to me.

clarice

True, Puk. I know of an American woman who'd been married to an Iranian. After their divorce in which she gained custody of the children, she had to go underground, keeping her whereabouts secret because he'd threatened quite credibly that he intended to snatch them and take them to Iran where he's automatically be given custody as a Moslem male.

clarice

**he'D***

GMax

Mark Cuban is most certainly the southernmost part of a northbound duck.

For an owner to get into a screaming match with the mother of one of the opponents players had to make all of the other owners shake their head and wish for Ross Perot or Don Carter to be the team's owners again.

Foo Bar

Suppose Barack Sr. argued that he was married (to someone else, natch) and could provide the proper home and cultural experience for his black Kenyan first-born son?

First-born? I could try supposing that, but it wouldn't be consistent with the facts. Barack Sr. already had a son who had been born in 1958.

Danube of Thought

"What is the support for the contention that the father would be any more absentee than most fathers in the early 60's?"

It is my understanding that he was an absentee at the time Barack was born, and remained so. (Is that not correct?) My recollection of the early 60's is that absentee fathers were quite a rarity as compared with today.

I assume that a Kenyan judge in 1961 would have been a British colonial, white as the driven snow and wearing one of those nifty wigs--but I really don't know....

Perhaps she feared Clarice's kidnapping scenario. In any event, I certainly wouldn't have advised the Dunhams to violate the law, but if they and their daughter had any real concern I would have advised them to undertake to have the baby naturalized, which I would guess would not have been difficult to do.

I wouldn't represent Obama in anything, but in this matter he doesn't need me or any other lawyer. He has won, and to the extent he is paying any attention to the whole birther business I am sure he is delighted to see the show go on. Pretty soon he'll have nowhere but JOM to turn to for the entertainment, but it looks to be a pretty reliable forum for the loons for some time to come.

PeterUK

"Presumably Barack Sr., being a native Kenyan, would have a better idea who to approach with the bribe."

Kenya was/is a rural country,the kid disappears into a village somewhere.Pffft!

PeterUK

Exactly Clarice. As a male child Barack junior would be important to the family.

Where do you get the idea that kind of rhetoric is persuasive?

Here's the divide; those who believe without proof and those who don't. Now, who's the loon?

clarice

Looks like AARP members are finally starting to wake up and the organization ( a SCAM worthy of PUK) may go down with Obamacare.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/A-revolt-is-brewing-among-AARP-members-against-AARP-leadership-52613042.html>AARP members kick ass

PeterUK

"I assume that a Kenyan judge in 1961 would have been a British colonial, white as the driven snow and wearing one of those nifty wigs--but I really don't know...."

The Kenyans didn't like the British much in 1961.There had been years of bloody warfare with the Mau Mau.

Stephanie

My parents and my husband refuse to join that trashy organization... AARP is for naive fools and damned fools... hope their membership takes a nosedive.

We're not in Chicago anymore, Totus.  Not mine, I'll look for the source.

Somebody's had the bright idea of sending union thugs to counter protesters at the townhalls and tea parties.

It's an idea with the potential for violence, but frankly, I feel sorry for the union members. They haven't anywhere near the passion for national health insurance as the demonstrators have against it. It'll be an unfair fight, and whoever had this idea is probably going to end up regretting it. I hope we don't all regret it.

About Weigel

If you want to deal with Weigel, force him to back up the ludicrous claims he made on the Maddow show. Details at my name's link.

Some months ago, he wrote about me on his personal site. I left a comment showing how he was wrong but he never approved it. So, there's that. OTOH, I don't want to push him too hard since I get the feeling that he's the type who might have a breakdown. I suggest concentrating on those in the MSM who've clearly lied about this issue (in the sense of making factual errors or just making things up.)

Idiot Baqstard Son

"Orly Taitz looks ridiculous"

Yeah. Uh huh. She's the only one. By what Irish Pub Bar-ometer did you measure that drop in pressure?

Stephanie

Reposted and modified from the other zombie thread...

Maybe the race of the child is listed as "white." Many AA babies are born that look white for the first few weeks then the melanin darkens.

Maybe the Dunhams pranked the Health Dept. Would that have been done to protect the family in the 1960s in a racially charged atmosphere? Would that be why he is so touchy about granma and her fears of "black folks?"

The dad wasn't there at the birth**, so who present at the birth could disprove that the dad was one Barack Obama and that he was white? Then Stanley departed HI for school and who in Hawaii was any wiser?

Granma punked his blackness afore he was born... damned racist bitch...

** He might have still been in HI, but would he have been at the hospital for the birth? They parted ways about what, 15 days later?

Ignatz

--Here's the divide; those who believe without proof and those who don't.--

Perhaps.

Or maybe the divide is between skepticism balanced by the available evidence and speculation based on wishful thinking.

Idi Amin

"The Kenyans didn't like the British much in 1961"

Dey don't like you much now, Meestah.

Jambo

I'm So Glad I'm Not a Lawyer

Who is Barry Soetoro?

How does this kid get to America as a foreign student? Can you manage this from Hawaii?

Why, if you are birth-named Barack, your father's name; would you go by Barry? Ah. The adoption by Lolo. He was only 4 years old. He was too young, then, to organize a beer summit. So, what is interfering with "transparency?" Too many questions raised all at once for ya? Brooks Brothers tailors to fit.

PD

I've been reading Ludlum's "The Prometheus Deception," in which I came across this passage:

So too was the secrecy that seemed to surround the life and career of Gregory Manning. It was as if two or three sanitized accounts of his personal life had been doled out to fatuous jounalists, published prominently, and then recycled endlessly. The result was that although much was written about Manning, little was known.

Remind you of anyone?

RichatUF

A bit off topic, but a good read. Hanson. He even kicks ass with the title: Prairie-Fire Anger.

Archer Daniels Midland

A bit off topic but a good read nevertheless.

"If the specter of obesity and diabetes wasn't enough to turn you off high- fructose corn syrup (HFCS), try this: New research suggests that the sweetener could be tainted with mercury, putting millions of children at risk for developmental problems.

In 2004, Renee Dufault, an environmental health researcher at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), stumbled upon an obscure Environmental Protection Agency report on chemical plants' mercury emissions. Some chemical companies, she learned, make lye by pumping salt through large vats of mercury. Since lye is a key ingredient in making HFCS (it's used to separate corn starch from the kernel), Dufault wondered if mercury might be getting into the ubiquitous sweetener that makes up 1 out of every 10 calories Americans eat."

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2009/07/corn-syrups-mercury-surprise

PeterUK

"Who is Barry Soetoro?"

He's the Man in the Iron Mask. Imprisoned in Indonesia whilst Barack Hussein Obama went to America.

Stephanie

OT...How sodium silicate works on the Hill...

"It does seem to be out of character for Democrats to support allowing millionaires access to borrowed money to buy cars," said Don Stewart, spokesnan for Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.

LUN

PeterUK

Frankly Idi my dear,I don't give a shit!

BTW Septic Idi was Ugandan,is that the only African name you know except Obama?

PaulL

Charlie, where you been? Off visiting your pirate buddies in Somalia again?

Stephanie

"We are dependent on the continued support of Treasury in order to continue operating our business,"

Not too big to Epic Fail!

LUN

Da Da Amin

Idi, Nkrumah and Maggie have High Tea every
day in the 5th circle of Hell, doncha know?

There are no racial borders in Dante's Inferno

clarice

Amazing isn't it how the people who work in govt offices only look out for our welfare and toil selflessly at that task while farmers, pharamceutical and chemical company officials use their time in the cubicles to dream of new ways to poison us? Thank you motherjones for speaking truth to power or whatever..

PHEH on food freaks.

Mark O

Please. No more facts. They upset the owner.

PD

"New research suggests that the sweetener could be tainted with mercury, putting millions of children at risk for developmental problems."

When even newer research finds something better than "suggests" coupled with "could" we might have something worth paying attention to.

PeterUK

Obama was one of the lucky ones. If he had gone to India instead of Indonesia

Georgian

"PHEH on food freaks."

I think you mean 'meh'.

PeterUK

Margaret Thatcher doesn't qualify you clutz,she isn't dead.

Stephanie

Bastids!

Maybe this should be reported to the WH website?? I did and you can, too...

LUN

Barometric Pressure

"Margaret Thatcher doesn't qualify you clutz,she isn't dead."

She just seems so. Only the good die young.

Danube of Thought

For "proof," I'll settle for that which is admissible in a federal court in the U.S. If you'll provide me with the Looneyland Rules of Evidence, I'll be happy to review and critique them.

Dave in OC

Sorry if this has been already mentioned and debunked ,

I seem to remember some speculation that Stanley Ann D. went to Washington state for the next semester. I don't remember if it was idle speculation but if she did have a friend in Vancouver, BC and actually had the baby there and called per parents maybe they freaked and said "you idiot now he's not an American citizen - you are too young to give birth in a foreign country with a foreign father." Bingo, reason for the subterfuge, and it doesn't involve Kenya really. Oh well maybe this has been discussed and debunked already...

I actually think it is more likely that someone knew their marriage was not legal and the wrong box was checked. Perhaps that doc that knew who "Stanley" was also had heard the father was still married in Africa? You don't think the two love birds broke up over the cost of Arugula at whole foods do you?

HI still wasn't verifying if someone was still married in CA 10 years ago, so getting a HI marriage license is not exactly hard.

PeterUK

Still with us then Septic.
So according to you Amin and Nkrumah must have been good.What a tit!

sam

If there is any significant problem in the birth certificate, it won't be fought in a court of law.

It will be another greased-track for his approval rating.

Remember Nixon, won a landslide only two years before his oblivion.

PeterUK

"For "proof," I'll settle for that which is admissible in a federal court in the U.S. If you'll provide me with the Looneyland Rules of Evidence, I'll be happy to review and critique them."

Would that be with an OJ Simpson jury or a Lewis Libby jury?

BB Key

Who is Barry Soetoro?

Why don't you ask Tom Brokaw and Charlie Rose?

"We do not know much about Barack Obama"

Stephanie

Top White House aides gave Senate Democrats a recess battle plan on Thursday,

“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” Messina said, according to an official who attended the meeting…

Just WTF are they going to punch back AT, the Republican party (whiff, they are already irrelevant to the passage of this legislation) or the citizens who are reported to the Hopenstazi or who show up at townhall meetings???

All it will take is two or three reports of citizens being targeted and this will spiral out of control.

LUN

Dave in OC

I think toe donks actually BELIEVE that this is being orchestrated. I think that is called "projection."

Dave in OC

Good grief,

THE donks

Danube of Thought

"Would that be with an OJ Simpson jury or a Lewis Libby jury?"

OJ was in a California court, not a federal one, but no matter--in neither jurisdiction would anything brought forward here ever reach a jury.

sam

It doesn't have to reach a jury to inflict damage.

sam

The left's "Bush lied" never reached a jury, did it? Still damaged his presidency and the Republican party.

matt

the administration and it's adherents are damaging themselves quite enough already, sam. The images from the town hall meetings and on the news will erode support even further. Every time Nancy or Boxer or Harry or their colleagues name call, it further radicalizes a few more.

By adopting the Alyinskiyite model and then demonizing normal citizens, they only serve to marginalize themselves. Obama is experiencing a sudden case of overexposure and is now being clearly identified with the Hard Left. Bad move.As they say in Brooklyn, my nose bleeds.

Danube of Thought

A few ground rules, courtesy of the Federal Rules of Evidence:

"Rule 901. Requirement of Authentication or Identification

"(a) General provision.
The requirement of authentication or identification as a condition precedent to admissibility is satisfied by evidence sufficient to support a finding that the matter in question is what its proponent claims.

"(b) Illustrations.

"By way of illustration only, and not by way of limitation, the following are examples of authentication or identification conforming with the requirements of this rule:
****
"(7) Public records or reports. Evidence that a writing authorized by law to be recorded or filed and in fact recorded or filed in a public office, or a purported public record, report, statement, or data compilation, in any form, is from the public office where items of this nature are kept.
****
"Rule 902. Self-authentication
Extrinsic evidence of authenticity as a condition precedent to admissibility is not required with respect to the following:
****
("4) Certified copies of public records. A copy of an official record or report or entry therein, or of a document authorized by law to be recorded or filed and actually recorded or filed in a public office, including data compilations in any form, certified as correct by the custodian or other person authorized to make the certification, by certificate complying with paragraph (1), (2), or (3) of this rule or complying with any Act of Congress or rule prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to statutory authority."

So--the certification is received in evidence. Now the burden shifts to the birthers to come forward with admissible evidence that the information in the certification is wrong.

(Cue the little jingle from "Jeopardy.")

PeterUK

No this one will go to the Court of Public Opinion.

It could be there is something there,it could be the "Imp of Perverse",it could be a cunning plan,perhaps even a self destructive streak in Obama,but this has to be the most stupid play in modern politics,an unnecessary hostage to fortune.
Mess with myths at your peril.

Danube of Thought

"The left's 'Bush lied' never reached a jury, did it? Still damaged his presidency and the Republican party."

Hmmm...we're no longer talking about "proof." We're talking instead about whether continued explication of this nonsense will harm Obama's presidency and his party.

For my part, I'd rather talk about the monstrosities of cap-and-trade, the stimulus and the healthcare nightmare. But by all means, carry on.

DebinNC

OT:

* Former GAO head on with Cavuto today said car dealers aren't allowed to get social security numbers and proof of residence of buyers, so Canadians and Mexicans are getting Cash for Clunkers.

* Hugh Hewitt is getting one of his posse to put the tune "Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer" to new words "Grandma Got Run Over by ObamaCare".

* The video of an incredibly snarky AARP rep lecturing and then walking out on a well-behaved group of FL seniors gathered for a Kill Granny discussion is a must see.

sam

matt:

To further the fight, anything else that raises and enhances doubt about Obama and his motives is an additional tool.

Just like, the "Bush Lied" meme by itself was not enough for the 2006 and 2008 repudiation, but contributed greatly to the general and increasing distrust of the administration.

Stephanie

OT for Narciso... that blogger that's been harrassing Sarah? GONE... OUT OF A JOB.

Per Riehl World View and Stacy McCain blogs. Seems the state of Alaska didn't cotton to his being in a classroom with children after learning a little more about him (from his own sites)...

LUN

DebinNC

AARP goes Nurse Ratched on seniors.

Mark O

I wouldn't mind talking about the swift and inescapable retreat from defending the country. But, if I do so am I wishing for an attack? I'm certain Obama's family had a plan for that, too.

sam

Let 20% (or whatever) talk about birth certificate, let 40% (or whatever) talk about the monstrosities of C&T, HC and other sundries, 10% will overlap between the two.

It all adds up to 50% + 1.

You can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Credulousness runs deep; into your heart it will creep.

DoT is hot for the COLB despite its origins on Daily Kos. Given all the controversy over it, what do think entering it as evidence will prove and what sort of case about his eligibility is going to settle for a copy of an original document?

And this guy throws 'loony' around like he's the only sane guy in the world. Puhlease, don't you recognize how much your rhetoric resembles the trolls we ridicule?

sam

"Hmmm...we're no longer talking about "proof." We're talking instead about whether continued explication of this nonsense will harm Obama's presidency and his party."

Now you are catching on. To many skeptics of the Obama folklore, the bc issue is more of a frst step in opening the Pandora's box, to explore the reality behind myth.

PeterUK

DoT,
I've never been talking about proof,but I've seen stories grow and become "truth",unshakeable facts. You have to have experienced the "Princess Diana Assassination" belief at first hand,they weren't just believers,they were hysterical emotional believers.
A lot of this had one instigator,but it took hold and became an article of faith.That is why this could be a disaster for Obama. In fact those who are damaged by the crazed economics are going to cling to this.

Porchlight

So--the certification is received in evidence.

Received by whom? You have only ever seen a photo of the COLB. Where is the hard copy, the certified copy of the document? Who has custody of it? Surely you don't expect a court of law to accept a JPEG.

All we have is photos of a COLB on a website and the word of Hawaii officials. The actual piece of paper in question cannot be examined by any court, because it has never been submitted to anyone but Factcheck.org.

IANAL of course but I am pretty certain no court would accept a document as authentic evidence without actually having that document in hand to examine.

sam

PUK:

That is basically my point.

If Obama's popularity stops its slide and regains a high plateau, nothing in the BC will matter.

If people get increasingly pissed at him, the BC-hiding will sink him, even though there might not be anything there. People will find a reason to blame him for everything wrong.

This dynamic does not depend upon any legality.

clarice

DoT is talking principle and the law, PUK and some others are talking politics and I love you all.

I share DoT's distaste for looneyland rules of evidence though. I happen to think our federal rules are quite good.

PeterUK

sam.
It will be the Salem effect. Any negative action by Obama will be attributed to him not being American.
Amazing how that can come out,"It's not your country".

Danube of Thought

Well, there is the fact of its publication (not its origin) on Kos. Then there's the statement from the Hawaii records custodian. Then there's the grandmother's statement (maybe admissible). Then there's the nurse's statement (inadmissible, but we're all friends here, right?) Then there are the two nrewspapers (admissible). So the birthers have serious problems, but perhaps none as serious as the belief that all this is helpful in the court of public opinion. It's not (see, e.g., Ann Coulter.)

PeterUK

Clarice,
Your current administration doesn't seem much constrained by the law,your Constitution or much else. In fact it seems to regard those things as an impediment to be brushed aside.

sam

PUK:

Even if the BC shows that the name is different, can you see the screaming headlines of the NY Post and the Daily News:

"IMPOSTOR!!!"

"WHO IS THIS GUY?"

sam

Sorry, meant to say, "Even if the BC only shows..."

Danube of Thought

(A) It's not a copy of an original document (try to pay attention).
(B) It's an official record of the State of Hawaii.
(C) Each and every case challenging his eligibility has been dismissed without the need for any record at all.

But the loons are in full-throated cry, and reason is a detour.

Porchlight

Okay, DoT. You win. A federal court would most definitely rule that Obama's COLB is authentic, even if it can never lay hands on that COLB. They would just look at the picture on Kos and accept the word of a partisan website that the document had not been altered.

Piece of cake.

clarice

If the argument was that he has hidden all the evidence of his life from public view and what we are seeing doesn't match his carefully contrived unsubstantiated autobiography, I'll march beside you. If it is that those debunking the not "natural born" claim have not made their case, I'm with TM.

If the question is whether the courts or Congress are likely to do anything if some real evidence turned up that called his place and circumstance of birth into question , I can tell you I'd not place a bet on them acting.

PeterUK

DoT,
All that is irrelevant in the court of public opinion,give it facts and their eyes will glaze over. The number of complex fraud cases that have foundered,because they are way beyond ordinary jurors is quite alarming.To the extent that it was mooted that these be tried by judges alone.
Bottom line most people are not lawyers,nor do they have any interest in the law.That is why lawyers make a good living.But give those people a nice juicy scandal and they will be at it like a dog with a bone.
Sorry old chap but it is human nature.

Porchlight

DoT, for the zillionth time, I think he was born in Hawaii.

Call me a loon all you like. I am not saying that the birthers have any good evidence whatsoever. All I am asserting is that a JPEG of a COLB on a website is not the same thing as a certified hard copy of a COLB.

If you are arguing in good faith, you have to admit that is true.

daddy

Perhaps we could get Madonna to adopt Obama, thereby grandfathering him US citizenship and ending this controversy.

Great AARP video Link from DebinNC

And P'UK, cool Hindu baby tossing video...throwing out the baby without the bathwater. Now if we could somehow tie that 700 year old "Drop yer Baby from The Rooftops" Indian Festival with the running of the Bulls in Pamplona, man would that be entertainment!

clarice

No--You have to adopt the child before its 18th birthday to confer citizenship on him..And , of course, citizenship is not co-existent with natural born or Ahnold could run.

PeterUK

There have been items,from famous collections,pictured on the pages of reference books,which have passed through famous auction houses. These items have had provenance coming out of the wazoo,authentication by eminent experts and brought astronomical sums at auction. They were fakes!

daddy

No--You have to adopt the child before its 18th birthday

Yeah, but Clarice she's The Madonna and he's the Messiah. Don't you think Sotomayor would buy off on it?

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Why, if you are birth-named Barack, your father's name; would you go by Barry?

For the same reason guys named Robert go by Bob, or Henrys go by Hank, or Richards go by Rick.

First it is just a short form of the name Barack and it also Americanizes the name. Seems the question should be, why wouldn't he go by Barry?

Original MikeS

...but perhaps none as serious as the belief that all this is helpful in the court of public opinion.

If the birther community was better organized they could readjust their sights onto something like the target defined by Clarice. (If the argument was that he has hidden all the evidence of his life from public view and what we are seeing doesn't match his carefully contrived unsubstantiated autobiography)

This claim has the advantage of being true and provable. It is also the kind of accusation that strikes at the man's credibility.

Credulousness runs deep; into your heart it has crept, but why?

Picky, picky. My point is that the COLB, though a legal document, will not have much value in a lawsuit about eligibility when there is a long form, vault copy, in Hawai'i's custody.

DoT, your passion is causing you to make silly arguments. You didn't even respond to the thrust of my point, you only found something formally wrong with it. This is not persuasive, not in principle, not in law, and not in politics.

Rob Crawford

All it will take is two or three reports of citizens being targeted and this will spiral out of control.

Doubtful. The pravda will be "the wingers started it". There could be video from a dozen angles, unmistakable audio, even, say, police testimony otherwise, and the press will repeat the accusation.

The only chance the truth will have will be alternative media, and, honestly, I don't know how much of a chance that will be.

Danube of Thought

I would not rely on a Jpeg from Kos. I would rely on the document that the custodian of records would bring to court with her, unless It turned out that she had simply been lying in her two public statements about the matter. But we're already in fantasyland here: the case would never reach the discovery phase, let alone a trial.

PeterUK

Rob Crawford'
That is why you have to have railf little old ladies in wheelchairs at the forefront.Neat little old gentlemen with campaign medals and walking frames. Mothers with babes in arms.
Forget the domestic MSM,go for foreign newspapers.

clarice

"But we're already in fantasyland here: the case would never reach the discovery phase, let alone a trial."

I'll drink to that.

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Wilson/Plame