OK, So They Aren't Exactly "Death Panels"

Apparently the cost-conscious Brits deliberately spend less on potentially life-saving techniques.  You can only imagine my surprise.

Comments

[clarice]

Meanwhile I just read we are working on (expensive) stem cell research which may allow us to repair damaged hearts..Meanwhile doofus is carving up the pie so that we can ration bandaids and iodine.

[ben]

The result will be like you read in "Cancer Ward" in the old USSR. Ultimately doctors will be low paid civil servants punching time cards 9 to 5 and riding mass transit home.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Here's some numbers for you.

Chris Dodd has just announced his prostate cancer.

In the US, his five year survival probability is essentially 100 percent.

In Canada, his chance of dying within five years is about 1 in 20.

In the UK, it's about 1 in 3.

[Jim Ryan]

I'm pretty sure "decide who gets health care" is an enumerated power of the federal government in the Constitution.

[Cecil Turner]

New Obama statement just out:

Well of course we're going to have "death boards" silly, how else did you think they were going to ration end-of-life care? But that name is objectionable, so we're going to call them "ponies eating rainbows" boards. We're pretty sure that'll cause much less consternation.

Okay, okay, I made that up. But at least it'd be somewhat honest.

[PaulL]

Jake Tapper asking Gibbs for further instructions from the White House:

TAPPER: We've called the death panels false. I don't know what more you want from us.

[matt]

it will cost you extra to actually get the medicine as in the "free" systems in the Soviet Union and China.

So $45,000 is the price of life in the UK. Anything over that and well, they'll give you a nice room where no one looks in on you, as PUK described.

John Campbell, my congressman, met a UK EU parliamentarian when he was at Fox's DC studios rcently who told him the following about the UK system:

1 . The National Health Service is the 3rd largest employer in the world, behind the Red Army and Indian national railroad.

2. They have 1.4 million employees in a country 30% our size.

3.>50% of all NHS employees are administrative.

Talk about bureaucracies. This is the Mother of all Bureaucracies.

[PeterUK]

Matt.

Importantly,the NHS is heavily unionised,it is totally unreformable.
Secondly the bureaucrats have one infallible tactic if anyone tries. They scream,"Cuts will damage patient care", then they get rid of front line workers. That's it game over.

The principle consideration of the Obama health care idea is not on its merits alone,it is that once established,the edifice is there for good! It will be impossible to control. The left know this,they don't care about health but are inten on building a socialist state.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

STEPHEN HAWKING RESPONDS: The old galoot himself utters the latest liberal lie: “I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.” Wait… how did he get NHS treatment from the United States? [Guardian]

I guess the NHS doesn't kill ALL the unfortunates. He probably gets better treatment 'cause he's rich or a celebrity. But that doesn't happen in the USA, does it?

[Extraneus]

I just heard on Mark Levin that the health insurance industry has a 3.3% profit margin. Can that be right?

If it is, then there aren't any windfall profits for the government to steal, and any additional regulation, such as forcing them to take on pre-existing conditions, can only make them less profitable, meaning they'll go in the red.

The death panels, as defined by Sarah Palin, will then happen. There's no way around rationed care if it's provided by the government.

You want to "keep them honest," Obama? First, explain what they're lying about, and why the public option is the best way to stop the lying.

[PeterUK]

Hawking is probably right. Vast amounts were expended,but who didn't get treatment so he could?
A bit ungrateful not to acknowledge his "voice box" is American.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

"but who didn't get treatment so he could?"

That could never happen in the US.

[Original MikeS]

Those on the left like to pretend that the law of supply and demand is just a myth or 'misinformation.' The truth is, if we start cranking out more doctor's and MRI machines etc., the price will come down.

The alternative would be to restrict demand. We could set up a panel to decide that many less people are eligible for MRI's or doctoring. In some cases these panels might be making life or death decisions.

Hmmm. Should we call them "life panels," 'cause they decide who will live?

[PeterUK]

Hawkings is a genius but his family obviuosly had pullDr Frank and Isobel Hawkings

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah, them socialist systems discriminate based on class and wealth like no capitalist ever could.

[JM Hanes]

Extraneus:

The biggest jaw dropper is Obama's assertion that gov't healthcare will make the insurance industry more competitive -- because non-profit healthcare workers have incentives to lower costs that are missing in the private sector!

[bgates]

Chris Dodd has just announced his prostate cancer.

He should get a second opinion. It's possible the small hard lump the proctologist detected was just Dodd's head up his ass.

[PeterUK]

It is no use pretending that there isn't triage to determine which patient will benefit from treatment,there is. No Health Service has unlimited funds,it will always be a balancing act between competing treatment.Volume will bring the price down,but new treatments are still going to be expensive.

[JM Hanes]

matt:

Big Daddy is coming down the pike -- and bringing Big Brother with him.

[JM Hanes]

bgates:

I think Dodd has outlived his usefulness, don't you? Somebody call the Comparative Effectiveness Commission!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

"Volume will bring the price down,"

Hospitalized recently, I was given a Tylenol for a headache. When i saw the bill, it was
$13 for 2 tablets. Is there a shortage of Tylenol in the US?

[Cantankerous Sextogenarian]

In which I agree with Barack Obama, sort of
By TigerHawk at 8/12/2009 07:03:00 PM

Drudge is linking to this "flashback," in which Barack Obama questioned the value of hip-replacement surgery in the terminally ill, specifically his grandmother. Presumably Drudge thinks the old story is newly relevant given the "death panel" and related arguments that have been flying around in this summer of love, and so it is. Barack Obama is right. It is profoundly wasteful to perform hip-replacement surgery on somebody who is probably going to die in a matter of weeks or even months, and as a conservative I am against profoundly wasteful things. The question is, what should we do about it?

In theory, we should be able to cover these questions in market negotiations. I should be able to buy a "spare no measure" policy that would pay for any potential treatment in the event that I am at risk of life or limb, or a much cheaper "put me out on the iceberg" policy that sends me to a hospice and gives me as much government morphine as I want when the odds turn against me. Then I will have made my choice, just as I do when I choose to smoke, gain lots of weight, or ride a bike without a helmet. Or not.

The problem, of course, is that most people who face end-of-life treatment decisions are "senior citizens," and the government makes the reimbursement decisions for them. These decisions become political controversies, as opposed to choices freely made, because government employees impose them on the people. Not only do people bridle against the coercion, but the decisions themselves become morality plays carried on in tones that do not improve our civil society.

The solution, the only real way out of the end-of-life cost trap, is to privatize health insurance for senior citizens, give them vouchers that subsidize their health care to some baseline, and let them negotiate the end-of-life deal they prefer (and can afford) when they would have become eligible for Medicare. No coercion, apart from the ordinary "coercion" of capitalism, which most Americans think of as "freedom," and no "death panels," and no morality play.

Yeah. Lets do away with the Medicare freebies.

[1st class citizen]

"I am against profoundly wasteful things."

TigerHawk; Please exclude military expenditures.

[Extraneus]

This is not an emergency. Hillary's ill-fated attempt failed 16 years ago. Nobody is without health care. The deficit is four times as big as it has ever been, and these proposals would only increase it. This is simply a socialist power-grab, and should go down in flames.

Any Republicans agreeing to a compromise should pay a steep price.

[Diatriber]

"Nobody is without health care"

Are you fucking insane?

[ben]

"The Ponies eating rainbows board is a great name", Cecil.

I nominate Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd as inaugural test patients.

[bad]

I'm cool with that, ben.

[ben]

"Hospitalized recently, I was given a Tylenol for a headache. When i saw the bill, it was
$13 for 2 tablets. Is there a shortage of Tylenol in the US?"

Staying at a hotel recently, they charged me $120 for a bed. Is there a shortage of beds in the US?

[Diatriber]

Sarah Palin, Friday:

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Sarah Palin, Sunday:

There are many disturbing details in the current bill that Washington is trying to rush through Congress, but we must stick to a discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment.

The Obama Healthcare Alarmists enjoy the credibility their 'movement' derives from such persons of interest.

[Diatriber]

"Is there a shortage of beds in the US?"

PHEWWAAAATTTTT !

Sorry. I farted.

[Jim Ryan]

Would someone please give me the link for troll hammer or similar product? I can't find it.

[PeterUK]

"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."

That would be your Congress critters and our MPs for the long drop.

[PeterUK]

"Sorry. I farted."

You'd better check you didn't follow through.

[jimmyk]

The solution, the only real way out of the end-of-life cost trap, is to privatize health insurance for senior citizens, give them vouchers that subsidize their health care to some baseline, and let them negotiate the end-of-life deal they prefer

I agree with much of what you say, but can't seniors purchase supplemental private insurance under the current system? And why the voucher/subsidy?

[Satiated Endomorph]

"negotiate the end-of-life deal they prefer"

Set adrift on an iceberg or fed to the wolves.

It's the Republican way.

[Extraneus]

There's nothing in the Constitution which suggests that everyone should be entitled to the same level of health care, just as there's nothing which entitles everyone to a vacation home in Martha's Vineyard or a Ferrari.

If rich people choose to spend their money on expensive experimental treatments, that is their right. The rest of us have to do the best that we can. If we can afford "gold-plated" insurance plans, and are willing to spend our money on that, we can buy them. If we can't, and we can afford lower-priced and lower-quality plans, we can buy those. If we can't afford any insurance at all, then we're poor and our society doesn't allow the poor to go without some minimal level of care.

Just as we don't allow the poor to go without some minimal level of food, shelter, or schooling for their kids.

To argue that everyone should have the same health insurance, regardless of personal wealth, is analogous to arguing the same about food or shelter. Either all of us should be able to drink 100-year-old Cabernet, or no one should. Same with cars, TV sets, computers, schools for their kids, etc.

Some people are making this argument in the present debate, and they should extend their arguments outside the health care discussion, or explain why health care is different from other commodities.

[JM Hanes]

Diatriber:

Wow. You must be scraping the bottom of the ant-Palin barrel, if that's the best you can come up with. You should go back to your sources for better material, or check out Andrew Sullivan, because you don't really want to look like a piker in front of all these nice folks, do you?

[Parking Lot]

((Yeah, them socialist systems discriminate based on class and wealth like no capitalist ever could.))

yeah but the capitalists aren't hypocrites about it like the socialists are

[Jane]

I've contributed a lot of money to the government over the years as have we all. So why not decide who gets treatment by how much they have paid in taxes. Then the elderly will get their fair share and people will be encouraged to work hard for their children.

[Extraneus]

Good one, Jane. I'd have the gold-plated deal for sure if we did that.

[Cecil Turner]

The Obama Healthcare Alarmists enjoy the credibility their 'movement' derives from such persons of interest.

Cute, except for the teensy little problem that she's right. Government bureaucrats will be making life-and-death decisions, based on economics, and those who aren't well-connected or well-heeled enough to game the system will be totally at their mercy.

And that doesn't even take into account the inevitable bureaucratic baggage: payola for political allies; disinterest amongst the decision-makers due to careerism, sinecures, and nepotism; and wasteful practices rife when spending others' money. Thanks, but I've seen enough Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shennanigans . . . don't need to set up another one (ten times larger) to foul up the health care industry.

There are only two real questions in this debate: 1) will any of the current proposals improve care? and 2) will any of the current proposals drive down cost? A majority of American voters believe it'll make care worse, and the CBO clearly debunked the second. So why don't we do something that'd actually be useful, like tort reform? Could it be partisan politics? Say it ain't so, O!

[Parking Lot]

((When i saw the bill, it was
$13 for 2 tablets.))

under Obamacare the price paid by the taxpayers for two tablets dispensed in a hospital will be closer to $300

[narciso]

No, that's the Democrat way, it's not a coincidence they want to cull 'the elderly' and save wolves. Anyways that's the way it looks.

[Extraneus]

Medicare only pays $541.72 to $708.71 to amputate a diabetic's foot.

[Captain Hate]

The Obama Healthcare Alarmists enjoy the credibility their 'movement' derives from such persons of interest.

Yeah, too bad she doesn't speak like the jug-eared fuck when he stammers over sentences accusing doctors of hacking off diabetics's appendages to make more money. The brilliance of that 'movement' is apparent to all.

[Extraneus]

Hey, Hillary sympathized with Nigerians concerned about the integrity of their elections today.

“In 2000, our presidential election came down to one state where the brother of the man running for President was the governor of the state. So we have our problems too.”

That's special.

[daddy]

I liked how the Doctor from Rush's home town called in today to correct Obama's statement that colonoscopies screen for Prostate cancer. Colonoscopies are useful for detecting cancerous growths not in one's pecker, but in the portion of human anatomy where Obama's head usually resides.

[Extraneus]

Jackie Mason explains the Sarah Palin issue.

[Frau Gesundheitsamt]

"This is the Mother of all Bureaucracies."
This is the wet dream for the leftists.

"but who didn't get treatment so he could?"
That could never happen in the US.
This cat has not read Dr.Emanuel's (aka Doctor Death)treatise on rationing health.

[bgates]

Jim Ryan -
here you go, remember it's for Firefox only and you need to have Greasemonkey installed first.

[Jim Ryan]

Thanks, bgates.

[JM Hanes]

Speaking of Hillary, anybody else getting the impression that maybe she's contemplating a return engagement as the Senator from New York? Or maybe Gov? Her stint at State hasn't stopped the fund raising.

[Jim Ryan]

Narcisolator, eh? Heh. What's that language, VB?

[clarice]

I think she's contemplating running against O if he continues to tank--She's stuck in nowhere Africa while O has undercut her sending everybody else to the big spots on the globe. Why do you think she looks like a sack of &*^% right now? She is very very very angry.

[Sue]

Okay, I feel like the town crier who everyone ran from. I'm chasing you guys all over the place. http://patterico.com/2009/08/12/roxana-mayer-im-not-a-doctor-but-i-play-one-at-town-hall-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-536932>Patterico busted an Obama plant at Sheila Jackson-Lee's townhall.

[Frau Gesundheitsamt]

Patterico busted an Obama plant (Sues's link) --- Sheesh, the media are not even going through the motions any more. I guess we are *all* doctors if asked.

[Stephanie]

Well I do take temperatures, apply bandages, administer the tylenol, midol, and Sudafed, and other duties in this house so, hey, I'm a doctor, too...

Maybe they can hire me at Obama General Hospital... I can learn the rest of that stuff on the job. Worked for the One...What could go wrong?

[maryrose]

clarice:
I totally agree with you. Obama has totally marginalized Hillary and Bill is undercutting her by grandstanding in NK and going off on a toot to Las Vegas with his womanizing buds for his birthday...

[bgates]

Jim - that's javascript.

[JM Hanes]

Might be worth a few practice rounds of paperwork, Stephanie.

Clarice:

I bet Hillary has got a dedicated bookshelf for her enemies list by now.

[AL]

Government, including US government, has all incentives to finish-off anyone first minute he/she is out to retirement and does not pay payroll taxes anymore. Regardless of how much the person contributed to SS system while working.

If one wants to live couple of years longer, do not count on government to pay for it.

[harrjf]

((When i saw the bill, it was
$13 for 2 tablets.))

Under Obamacare it will be $45/aspirin

...because it is white and it works