Send Better Rebuttals - Andrew Sullivan Gets One Point On the Birther Controversy Exactly Right

Writing in the Brit Times Online Andrew Sullivan reprises the "Birther" controversy about Obama's birth certificate and gets one point exactly right:

Some, like me, didn’t understand the Hawaiian intricacies at first...

 

He still doesn't.  This column is a reversal from less than two weeks ago when Sullivan denounced the faith-based initiative that constitutes the Obama side of the debate.  Now, upon further reflection Sullivan has concluded that the inability or unwillingness to accept Obama on faith is racist.

Let's review some of his howlers.  His lead:

A naive person might believe that Barack Hussein Obama was born, as he has long said he was, in Hawaii to a young American mother and a distant father from Kenya. There are notices in two local papers and the certification of birth is filed in the state of Hawaii’s records.

An independent body — FactCheck.org — part of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, asked to see a copy of the original during last year’s campaign.  FactCheck is non-partisan and takes all sorts of politicians’ claims to task. Here’s its take on Obama’s birth certificate: “FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving US citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. . . Our conclusion: Obama was born in the USA just as he has always said.”

Andrew Sullivan is widely recognized as a skilled writer, so let me ask - would someone reading his introduction come away believing that the Annenberg Public Policy Center asked the State of Hawaii for permission to examine the original certificate (or a copy thereof)?  In fact, the State of Hawaii will only release the document to relatives or parties with a tangible interest (not mere US voters or the media); the Annenberg Center examined the certificate offered by the Obama campaign, which they claim (almost surely correctly, in my opinion) to have been issued by the State of Hawaii.  This is from the relevant Fact Check report:

In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen. But the image prompted more blog-based skepticism about the document's authenticity. And recently, author Jerome Corsi, whose book attacks Obama, said in a TV interview that the birth certificate the campaign has is "fake."

We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate.

...Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago.

Sullivans' continues with a central false claim of the rebuttal side:

You may be persuaded. Once I’d seen the short-form certificate online, verified by independent journalists and vouched for by state authorities, I was, too.

If Mr. Sullivan can find a citation in which state authorities vouch for the short form document released by the Obama campaign, we would all like to see it.  The Annenberg Fact Check process did not produce such assurance - it is clear from their presentation that no one from the State of Hawaii examined the certificate in question.  Politfact asked a Department of State spokesperson to examine an emailed electronic image of the certificate presented by the campaign, which is hardly likely to lead to a credible examination; they got this "assurance":

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it."

Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."

Well.  Maybe "vouch" means something different in English.

Continuing with Sullivan:

What do they [the 'birthers'] believe? The most common theory is that Obama was born in Kenya while his mother was visiting his father. The Hawaiian birth certificate exists, the sceptics claim, because Hawaii recognises as natural-born citizens those born to American mothers temporarily outside the United States. The only problem with that theory is the certificate would mention that fact and it doesn’t.

Hawaii will also issue birth certificates on the basis of parental affidavits, and people sometimes misrepresent the truth in affidavits.  If Obama's birth certificate had been issued on the basis of his mother's and maternal grandparent's say-so, that would probably be apparent on the long form certificate still held by the State of Hawaii, but it would not be obvious from the short form summary released by the campaign.  Does that matter?  Not to Sullivan's new found faith community.

Pressing on:

So Obama was born where all the evidence says he was: Honolulu. Why would a woman in her last month of pregnancy travel halfway around the world to deliver a child in a developing country and then bring him back home, even though he wouldn’t have had a passport? How would she get him into the United States unless someone at the border was in cahoots? “You couldn’t sell this script in Hollywood,” Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, told reporters last week.

How does anyone know she was in the last month of her pregnancy, as opposed, for example, to the possibility that Baby Barack arrived a month early?  There is no birth weight on the short form.  Maybe her due date was printed on the shotgun wedding invitation?  I missed that.

And who says Ms. Dunham would need a passport for the baby if returning with an infant?  She would if she were returning directly from Kenya in 2009.  Following the 9/11 attacks and on the recommendation of the 9/11 Commission, US border controls have been tightened (and subsequently relaxed).  A few years ago, the story was different:

Southern California parents have been given a reprieve from the strict new laws regarding passports and minor children.

Living relatively close to the Mexican border, it has been a fairly common occurrence to see families cross over into Mexico for day trips and short stays, but the recent changes in federal law requiring even infants to hold a valid passport for reentry into the U.S. by land or sea seemed to add a stumbling block that turned families away from international travel.

However, Federal regulations have been modified to exempt children.

U.S. and Canadian citizens under the age of 15 will be allowed to cross the boarder with parental consent, by both land and sea, with certified copies of their birth certificates rather than a passport.

What were the rules in 1961?  I don't know, but I am not writing for the Times Online - more to the point, Andrew Sullivan does not know either.  That said, I am virtually certain that Ms. Dunham could have crossed with a newborn to the US from Canada without incident, documentation notwithstanding.  Under one 'birther' theory, Baby Barack was born in Vancouver, for reasons that elude me (but she did go to school in Washington State that fall). 

Or, to stay with the notion of a Kenyan birth, what if Ms. Dunham flew from Kenya to London to, e.g., Toronto, and then crossed into the US.  Is there any reason at all to think that Sullivan has any idea what the Commonwealth or US passport regulations for newborns were in 1961?  Of course not.  What couldn't be sold to Hollywood is his rebuttal.

This next laugher seems to misunderestimate the power of the Presidency:

Why does this story stay alive? Some, like me, didn’t understand the Hawaiian intricacies at first: we thought there was a single long-form certificate that could resolve the question. But, as FactCheck notes: “The Hawaii Department of Health’s birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department.” So Obama did all he could to make this go away.

Hmm - I am wondering whether the State of Hawaii would refuse a Presidential request to make all his birth records available.  Will they also refuse to make copies available to the Obama Presidential Library (someday)?  Absurd.

Sullivan does not mention his flip-flop - was it only last July 29 that he thought the request for a full birth certificate was simple and innocuous?

It is not my job as a journalist or yours as a citizen to take public officials on trust. They are not to be trusted, whoever they are. It is our job to demand all the evidence we want or need. I know the electronic record is legit. I have no doubt that Obama has every constitutional right to be president. I think the Birthers are nuts. But there is no reason on earth that the original cannot be retrieved and shown. Jon Klein and CNN were wrong, and I retract my apology of yesterday.

Obama promised total transparency. Where is it? Or will it arrive at the moment when he tackles the deficit, and withdraws from Iraq?

Apparently he has discovered that anyone who fails to accept Obama's assertions on faith is a racist.  Whatever.

Comments

[hit and run]

TM:
Apparently he has discovered that anyone who fails to accept Obama's assertions on faith is a racist.

Sullivan is a faithist.

[Onward to the Fight.]

Onward Birther Soldiers.

[Jane]

Andree Sullivan

Perfect! Andree it shall be!

[clarice]

"Sullivan doesn not mention his flip-flop ".Why should he break his record? In 2008 he wrote on his blog site that he still hadn't made up his mind which candidate to support for president while AT THE SAME TIME, he wrote in a gay paper that he was supporting Kerry because Bush' support of DOMA was a deal breaker for him.

If he didn't come clean on that, why should he on this much smaller flip floparoo?
Do you suppose he has some kind of multiple personality disorder?

[bad]

Or perhaps Zero personality disorder....

[cbreitel]

From the conservative National Review:

"The fundamental fiction is that Obama has refused to release his 'real' birth certificate. This is untrue. The document that Obama has made available is the document that Hawaiian authorities issue when they are asked for a birth certificate. There is no secondary document cloaked in darkness, only the state records that are used to generate birth certificates when they are requested.

If one applies for a United States passport, the passport office will demand a birth certificate. It defines this as an official document bearing 'your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records.' The Hawaiian birth certificate President Obama has produced—the document is formally known as a 'certificate of live birth'—bears that information. It has been inspected by reporters, and several state officials have confirmed that the information in permanent state records is identical to that on the president’s birth certificate—which is precisely what one expects, of course, since the state records are used to generate those documents when they are requested. In other words, what President Obama has produced is the 'real' birth certificate of myth and lore. The director of Hawaii’s health department and the registrar of records each has personally verified that the information on Obama’s birth certificate is identical to that in the state’s records, the so-called vault copy."

Editors, National Review
July 28, 2009

[It's not the birthplace, it's the cover-up.]

You know, some of these smart guys must know that they are writing a load of shit. 'No option for photocopy'. I hope that comes back to haunt him.

Apparently they aren't ashamed of the hogwash, not in the fierce joy of Obama worship. But know it they must and when the disillusionment comes, it won't be anger that they've been fooled, but anger that they've been made to look foolish by the baloney they wrote. That's another dimension to the illegitimacy of Obama; he's not making his supporters look good.

[Still don't get it, hunh? You will.]

Oh, c'mon, cbreital, you say it right there, there is a vault copy. Now, officials no longer say it is a birth certificate but rather, vital records. Your's and the National Review's pitiful attempt at a legalism is not going to satisfy curiosity about why Obama is witholding his vital records, nor is it going to settle the doubts about his legitimacy. It's no longer the birthplace, it's the cover-up.

[clarice]

More on those birth announcements from WND:
"Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 8:33:45 PM by RobinMasters

Documents uncovered by WND strongly suggest Barack Obama Sr. and Stanley Ann Dunham, President Obama's parents, did not live at 6085 Kalanianaole Highway in Hawaii – even though birth announcements in local newspapers listed that address.

Both newspapers, the Honolulu Advertiser and the Star Bulletin, carried the announcement about the Aug. 4, 1961, birth. Both included the 6085 Kalanianaole Highway address.

But WND has confirmed that the house at that street number was owned and occupied in 1961 by another longtime resident Hawaii couple. Moreover, throughout the time he was in Hawaii, Barack Obama Sr. maintained his own separate apartment at 625 11th Ave. in Kaimuki, within walking distance of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where he was enrolled for studies in the fall term 1959.

'Birth home' at 6085 Kalanianaole Highway on Oahu

The records from a Honolulu title search, obtained by WND, document 6085 Kalanianaole Highway was purchased in 1958 by Orland Scott Lefforge, a University of Hawaii professor, and his wife/companion Thelma Young, who lived at the property and remained owners into the 1970s. "

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106258

[ben]

"The document that Obama has made available is the document that Hawaiian authorities issue when they are asked for a birth certificate."

Is this all the information that could be made available? The answer is no, so the issue remains why is this information not divulged? It's a simple question with a simple solution, no need to go into prolonged discourse and diatribes.

[bgates]

In anticipation of this thread growing to 500 comments, here's a new narcisolator that makes each comments link on the front page go to the last page of comments for the post, and adds a link to the last page of comments to the start of each page of comments.

Let me know if that reads as poorly on screen as I think, or if it's as clear as it sounded in my head.

[narciso]

Come again, bgates, slower this time. I'm almost at the Danube point, cue Richard Strauss, unless we have a picture of Barak Sr. in Mombasa, identified to be in 1961; I'm kind of not interested any more. Andrew Sullivan is either stark ravin, or he's a !@#!$@#%#^&, either way he's not worth the electrons

[bgates]

Come again

Right, that's how I thought it sounded.

Say you go to the front page right now. The second post, 'Shrum Lives', has 144 comments. The old way of doing things was to click the link that says "comments (144)" and then click through page after page of comments to get to the end. Who has the time?

Install the new narcisolator, and not only do you get troll blocking, but that "comments (144)" link will take you directly to the end of the thread.

[Obviously, a Lefforge/Young plot. Now I understand.]

Ah, clarice, that's good. For many people those newspaper announcements were the single most compelling bit of evidence.

[Pofarmer]

The records from a Honolulu title search, obtained by WND, document 6085 Kalanianaole Highway was purchased in 1958 by Orland Scott Lefforge, a University of Hawaii professor, and his wife/companion Thelma Young, who lived at the property and remained owners into the 1970s. "

Could she have been a renter?

If he has a seperate address, that would kinda show the marriage was a sham though, wouldn't it.

Dreams of my sperm donor, indeed.

[Porchlight]

Very useful, bgates, thanks. It's amazing how you get used to workarounds. I'd been doing the multiple tabs/active thread in each tab thing forever.

[Jeff H]

Is there any doubt that Obama's birthplace is only an issue because he is Black?

And John McCain, who all these racists voted for, was born in PANAMA, for Christ's sake!

[Probably just more damn disinformation. How about some information for a change.]

Sorry, Jeff H, it's the content of his character we're concerned about. It's not the birthplace, it's the cover-up.

And WND has a report from a Canadian journalist that he was born in Vancouver.

[narciso]

How do you get rid of a Microsoft, J script error, when you try to install the narcisolator

[jean]

Jeff that was really dumb.Don't you think black people have Birth Certificates?Call me naive,but I always assumed everyone had one

[Pofarmer]

And John McCain, who all these racists voted for, was born in PANAMA, for Christ's sake!

And John McCain, who was born of TWO American parents, while they were serving in Panama in the Military, had a Congressional hearing about his eligibility. Obama? One parent might or might not be old enough to confer citizenship. Born with dual citizenship. Had citizenship in a third country. Not sure when or if he gave the Indonesian citizenship up. Congressional hearing? Inquiring reporters? Crickets.

[mockmook]

Don't worry narciso, that virus won't be there after your hard drive reformats ;-)

[Pofarmer]

FWIW, I posted a few pictures of what we did today on Photobucket. Starts out with a mirror self portrait from earlier this spring. Goes through Raking, baling, loading bales, ends with the tarped stack. The gentleman standing beside the tractor and big square baler is my Dad.

[Pofarmer]

I suppose a link would be helpful.

LUN.

[PaulL]

Is there any doubt that Obama's birthplace is only an issue because he is Black?

What's this about Obama being black? Since when? First I've heard.

[Pofarmer]

Nuts, that one won't work.

Maybe this one.

http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c121/Pofarmer/a%20day%20haying/

[Captain Hate]

Yeah Jeff H; Obastard is post-racial, you fucking simpleton Axelturd.

[hit and run]

Those pics are awesome, Pofarmer.

[mockmook]

TM,

Even I, a "fishy" enemy of the state (who deplores where Obama is taking us), have to wonder, "Is this horse dead yet? It's taken an awful beating."

[jean]

Po what kind of hay ?

[Pofarmer]

That particular field is Alfalfa.

[jean]

Po Now you have my interest.Is it all sold?Do you deliver?If so how far from home do you deliver,and how much per.bale?

[matt]

or very short corn, Po...cool....

[Mike in Houston]

OK, here goes. I was born in Sweden in 1951 and adopted by US parents in that same year. Lived in Saudi Arabia until 1955 (My Dad worked for ARAMCO) Moved back to the states in 1955 and was naturalized in 1962. My father died last year and I was going through his papers and found a US passport in my name that was used to enter the US in 1955. Obviously I was not a citizen at the time. It even has my correct birthplace on it. I don't know how this happened but I'm thinking that the cosulate did this as that we had to travel by boat plane to Cairo, then another boat plane to Italy, then by train across France and finally to England to take the Queen Mary to NYC. I'm thinking that some kind consulate official knew the problems of crossing through all of these countries and issued the passport or there were different rules for minor children at that time. I don't know for sure what the law was at the time but I do know there were no problems. What is interesting is that my parents had to go through a second adoption in the US before I could be naturalized.

[sylvia]

Something very odd about this all. I would definitely think Obama Sr. was a a hired gun to pose as the dad. The only reason I don't now is I'm thinking would Stanley Ann name her newborn son after a hired gun? Probably not. On the other hand, maybe Obama Sr. has a big ego and insisted he would do a stand in only if they named the kid after him.

What I don't understand is, if NOBODY can get a copy of the long form because of privacy laws and that it is strictly verboten, how did FactCheck get their nubby paws on it? Wouldn't that be majorly illegal? I wouldn't think they would be allowed to get a copy even. And part of the Annenburg Foundation? Is this any relation to the Annenburgs that gave Obama his big job in Chicago working with Bill Ayers?

And this -

"Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago."

What? The original bc is in Chicago? I thought the original was under strict lock and key in the HI government vaults? So Obama does have a copy in his headquarters? Well why didn't he tell us that?! All he has to do is release it then. But somehow that doesn't square with this:

"FactCheck notes: “The Hawaii Department of Health’s birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department.”

Or does it? If FactCheck could not get even a copy of the long form from HI, then they HAD to have looked at the original from Obama. Crazy.

The only thing left on the long form that's not on the short form is the location of birth, hospital or home, etc. That's assuming that the officials are being truthful and everything on the short form matches the long form, and that's a big assumption there. And I like Tom's idea that maybe Dunham gave birth earlier, and the parents took out the affadvit later, and that would explain the timing of Dunham maybe going to Kenya and then going to school in WA two weeks after the supposed birth. So Obama must be sensitive to showing us where he was born, because that's the only thing left.

[sylvia]

And that's assuming that the Dunhams could not have somehow fibbed and got a hospital birth date somehow, which would set everything in motion. Blogger MJW said that only the hospitals could place birth announcements for their own hospitals, and that's prob true, but there are execptions to every rule. Maybe they paid somebody off. They could plead a sob story, poor unwed mother etc, and some nurse would do it. That was before illegals was a big deal. And that may be what Obama is hiding. He doesn't want any info out there that can be cross checked by the hospital staff and the public.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

In the 1960s, my high school boyfriend and I would run across to Canada nearly every day in the Summer to a place called the Quarry. A resort area where a quarry was turned into a lake with sandy beaches. It cost us a quarter for the bridge, we were never asked for any ID or birth certificate for any of these excursions.

In the 1970s, I used to run down to the Mexican border every Friday night after work, cross over, and my housekeeper's husband would be standing just on the other side and I'd hand him her pay out the car window, make a quick U-turn and come back to the U.S. No ID required, no birth certificate.

In fact, until after 9/11 I was never asked for any ID at the Mexican border. I think it was just last year that they implemented the passport requirement.

I used to go to Tijuana to shop, go to the eye doctor and for sightseeing with visitors or down the coast for a good lobster dinner all the time. Now I wouldn't go for any reason. Best New Year's Eve I ever had was in Ensenada.

[sylvia]

Does anyone know anything about Obama Srs dad and brothers and sisters in Kenya? Are they all dead too? I know it sounds crazy that I think that it's possible that Dunham gave birth in Kenya and left Obama Jr with Sr's Kenyan relatives.

But if we go with the idea that Dunham actually gave birth earlier than the birthdate, it might make sense. The white parents did't want anything to do with the black kid, Stanley Anne wants to go back to school, so what do they do?, they leave the kid in Kenya. Maybe with an aunt. Maybe they gave the Kenyans a few bucks to help out. That way the kid soaks up Kenyan culture and Stanley kept saying she promised her parents she'd go to Kenya after college. Why on earth would she promise her parents that - unless maybe the kid was there.

Then the kid flies back and forth while Dunham is on break with some escort. Maybe the dad. It didn't seem like any of them were broke so they could afford it. Maybe once at the beginning of the semester when there is a witness. And also for instance in February when the neighbor at the rental house, Toughtongi (sp?) took care of the kid in WA. The thing about that is, the neighbor does not "remember" when Stanley Anne moved into the house. Odd. And the neighbor only talked about the kid being at the house for about two months sometime in January February March.

What about the rest of the school year? Where was the kid when Stanley Anne was in classes? What about the next year? Where are the witnesses? I would think a mixed race child of a student would be kind of a curiousity and more people would remember. Where was Obama during the first two years of his life? I think it's possible he was sompleplace else. If not in Kenya then maybe staying with some other family somewhere. Hmm. Maybe Frank Marshall?

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Is there any doubt that Obama's birthplace is only an issue because he is Black?

This has to be one of the dumbest questions I've ever seen on JOM. Typical leftist racist garbage. No one cares but you guys what color Obama is. We care very much what his ideology is however and we don't like it. Besides, I think it is well established now that he is Irish.

[sylvia]

Yes Sarah they were much more relaxed back then about IDs. And I do think in the 60's you didn't need a passport for an infant.

[MJW]

sylvia: Blogger MJW said that only the hospitals could place birth announcements for their own hospitals...

I didn't say birth announcements, I said birth registrations. That is, if Obama's actual birth certificate lists a hospital as the place of birth, then he was to near certainty born in that hospital.

I believe the birth announcements were sent to the newspapers by the department of health.

[sylvia]

"That is, if Obama's actual birth certificate lists a hospital as the place of birth, then he was to near certainty born in that hospital."

Well I would agree, probably. But like I said, there is a way around every rule. Especially back then before computers. Money always talks.

[daddy]

Thanks Po, nice photo's.

[MJW]

Some people have questioned whether Obama could obtain his full birth certificate if he wanted to. I think he could, despite any policy of the Dept. of Health to only issue the COLBs.

Here is a Hawaii statute:

§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

(Section 338-16 and 338-17 concern late or altered birth certificates and children born outside the state. Section 338-18 restricts access to those with a "direct and tangible interest in the record.")

[sylvia]

"Section 338-18 restricts access to those with a "direct and tangible interest in the record.""

So how did FactCheck see it, since they are not Obama or any relation to Obama? They say right above that they got it at Obama's headquarters. So they are admitting Obama's got it. Am I missing something here. Isn't that kind of a big deal, that Obama has it?

[Orion]

FactCheck put its grubby paws on the "Certificate of Live Birth" that Obama's campaign posted on its website. There were questions about its authenticity: all they are saying is that it's an authentic COLB.

Problem is, Hawaii didn't start issuing those until the mid 1980s in response to requests for birth certificates. Today it's a computer-generated summary sheet of what's stored in their database. The original birth certificate, ie., the "vault copy" is tucked away in a safe somewhere in Honolulu. A month or so back CNN claimed its researchers had investigated and discovered it'd been destroyed in 2001: All that was destroyed was CNN's reputation because the director of the records department then announced that he's actually held it in his hands since then.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Obama isn't a citizen he doesn't get thrown out of office. The only time to challenge his credentials is when the electoral votes are presented to Congress and that's long past. Only if it can be proven that he knew all along he was Kenyan could he be impeached (majority Democrat Congress? Good luck with that.). There's a good argument he wouldn't be able to run again because to appear on the ballot in any state he has to swear that he's eligible.

Aside from that it's an interesting example of a hole in the electoral process: For 220 years we've taken it pretty much on faith that Presidential candidates are "natural born citizens". Because of Obama's complicated family history and unwillingness (inability?) to put this rumor to rest we can't do that anymore.

[sylvia]

"We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the ORIGINAL birth certificate. "

Okay, so that is just not true and FactCheck is just talking about a copy of the short form again. So Sully got persuaded for no reason.

[sylvia]

I don't know though. Maybe Obama does have the original in Chicago. Many people do have their original birth certificates. Maybe they were telling the truth.

[sylvia]

And to continue, if they were telling the truth, that would be an even bigger scandal if Obama had the original from his childhood this whole time, and pretended he didn't.

[Stephanie]

Ok. Darleen over at PW has a link up for signing up for Organizing for America's attempt to flood the congresscritters offices with pro health plan supporters.. go sign up for a time to meet with your rep...and remember to be really nice to the organizer who calls to check on you. ;)

Oh and be sure to check out #7 on the reasons why you are for O-care

Extended Coverage for Young Adults

WTF? Young adults get extended coverage and old folks get what? A pill, a pine box?

[MJW]

One thing I've wondered about -- but haven't mentioned because I assume I must be missing something obvious -- is the list of people with a direct and tangible interest enumerated in section 338-18. It comprises:
(1) The registrant;
(2) The spouse of the registrant;
(3) A parent of the registrant;
(4) A descendant of the registrant;
(5) A person having a common ancestor with the registrant;
(6) A legal guardian of the registrant;
(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
(8) A personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
(9) A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
(10) Adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and who need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
(11) A person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
(12) A person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
(13) A person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

On its face, doesn't item (5) seem leave a loophole large enough to drive a truck through? Surely somebody could be found who has a common ancestor with Obama, and who has enough curiosity or greed to ask for a copy of the original birth certificate. I doubt I'm the first to think of this, so there must be something I don't understand.

[Stephanie]

Separate and Unequal Healthcare doesn't sound constitutional...

Lawyers, what say you? I know private firms have leeway, but I don't think the feds administration of a program based on age would be constitutional based on the civil rights clause...and wasn't the reason they made the insurance companies get rid of tiered pricing was due to age discrimination claims... can't have it both ways.

The class action lawyers are gonna get rich if this POS goes through.

[daddy]

This sort of stuff is why I despise our news media.

In the John Kerry Form DD-214 shell game, he was always sort of intimating he was going to release his military records, but somehow it never happened. Any reporter could have easily rounded up any number of similar guys in the service at the same place and the same time, had them put in official requests for their DD-214's, and in a couple weeks we would know how long it took to get an official copy sent to an individual, and what sort of forms and info should be included in the package, so that we wouldn't have to listen to Kerry Bull@#$% us now for going on 1,600 days. With that info, then we could start asking informed questions, which is what these Leftist's and their LapDogs in the media hate.

With the Hawaii Birth Certificate thing, we should likewise have any decent reporter round up a number of similar folks born in Hawaii or having Birth Cert's from Hawaii at about the same time, have them do official requests, and see what they get from the State, with comparisons to the State Birth Certificate forms they already have. Then compare that to what Obama has released, so at least we would honestly know what sort of stuff exists and how long it takes to get it, and this wouldn't turn into another nebulous shell game of nobody ever seeing what should be expected or produced. And BTW nice job Clarice with the WND phony birth address link above.

And as for McCain's Birth Cert. I too was born overseas of US Military parents, have an official German passport, an official military translation, and also an official US Birth Certificate. I had to produce all that stuff to join the Military, and would gladly produce it all and officially re-request every bit of it in the event that McCain or any other Presidential Candidate was cryptically withholding similar info of the particulars of his official paperwork from the general public for whatever reason. Interestingly at 18 I was officially contacted by the German Government for completing some sort of mandatory enrollment forms for service in the German military, since I was born in Germany. I didn't even know they officially tracked me as a citizen. I turned them down, maintained my US Citizenship and here I am. Does Kenya regularly do something similar, or did they do something similar in the case of Barrack whatever the hell his name is? I don't know. But I do know that our MSM is absolutely uninterested in ever lifting a finger to find out.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

MJW: #5 is what allows genealogists to get birth/death/marriage certificates for their research. It used to be that you had to specifically request a certified long form and pay extra for it. Also, when for genealogy research, sometimes you can wait months, in NY's case, it can take over a year.

The ancestor designation is clear usually because you are requesting something that is outside the 75 year rule which comes into play to prevent just anyone from requesting these documents for people still assumed to be living who could request them for themselves.

The 75 year rule also applies to the Census too. So, without a direct need to know, we couldn't check the Census records for the 1960s to see where they were living since it has not been released yet.

I mentioned in a previous thread that we could not get my husband's grandfather's death record from Florida. The reason was because his birth date indicated he could still be alive at the time we made the first request. We knew he was not, but since he was estranged from his family, no one knew exactly when he died. It wasn't until I found his WWI Navy record which included some serious service connected injuries (his ship was torpedoed and he spent over 2 years in a military hospital afterward) that entitled him to ongoing VA care and we could come up with a death date when benefits stopped that we finally got the actual death certificate from the State of Florida.

[bgates]

Surely somebody could be found who has a common ancestor with Obama, and who has enough curiosity or greed to ask for a copy

Surely.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Let me add here that EVERYONE should fill out a pedigree chart with as much info as they can going back as many generations as they can (you can download these and family group sheets are even better). You may not be interested, but when someone like me comes along who loves the genealogical hunt, it sure helps to have at least names and approx. dates.

When I started researching, I had the benefit of reams of raw data my Dad had accumulated over the years on his family, plus back 2 generations they were all Quakers and once you can link into Quaker records it is a piece of cake. My Mom, on the other hand, was raised in Northern Calif. where her parents moved when she was 3 weeks old. All the rest of that family was either in PA or NY. When I sat down with her, I knew the names of her parents, but when I asked her her Grandparents' names, she looked at me and said, "Grandma and Grandpa," that is all she knew.

My Grandfather's obit mentioned that he graduated from Pratt Institute in NY. I wrote to them and asked if they had any records for his enrollment. What they sent included his emergency notification form which listed his father's name and address. That gave me my start and from there I eventually traced my Mom's paternal side of the family back to 1080 AD. I stopped there. With her Grandmother, I came into possession when my Aunt died of some letters my Mom's mother wrote home in which she told of Grandpa coming to visit and bringing some of Grandma's old dresses with him which she made over for herself and the girls. I made the assumption he wouldn't be traveling alone or bringing the dresses if his wife was still alive, so I asked for a search of NY records for 3 years on either side of the date of the letter and lo and behold they found her death record which included pertinent clues to trace her line, such as her maiden name. When I finally found her grave in a Long Island cemetery, she was buried with her brothers and parents, so I got their names from the tombstones and then found primary records to back up those dates. I also got hold of a few very old photo albums for my Grandmother's maternal family where captions read Aunt So and So, or Cousin So and So and this gave me clues that I could match up with census records or church records to establish ages and families.

As to legit info, you can't always trust primary records and secondary records, such as tombstones, obits are always suspect. For instance, my maternal Grandmother never gave her age the same on any given document. She had one age on my Mother's b.c., another on her own marriage certificate and a third on my Uncle's b.c. With each change, she got younger and younger.

PA didn't start keeping vital statistics on the state level until 1906, NY about 1880. Anything earlier you have to go to church/census records and do alot of microfilm diving to come up with obit notices, land records, military records, etc.

So do me a favor and your descendants, leave a record of what you know about your family. And if you can, make a tape of interesting family stories. To a genealogist these are gold.

[daddy]

Excuse me. Up above I meant I have an official German Birth Certificate...not a German Passport. My Passport is US and that is all I have ever had.

[MJW]

Sara, I'm still a little perplexed. The law doesn't differentiate between the categories, it just basically says, "here are the people who have a tangible interest in the records." It has a specific section for genealogy: (e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.

I suppose the power to control access within the list of categories is somehow derived from the health department's rule-making authority. I've noticed in the past when I've looked at statutory law that's there's often something hidden away in a completely different section of the code that clarifies things.

[MJW]

bgates, Cheney needs to file his request ASAP!

[daddy]

Here's an interesting object lesson to educate ourselves on how our Congress-critters think the States and citizens of this country are subservient to them.

California politicians (2,000 miles away) are mandating from Washington DC (4,000 miles away) restrictions that Alaskan citizens and game officials must adhere to in order to try to control wolf populations. ">http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/wolves/story/893241.html"> Link.:

"Two California Democrats have introduced legislation that would all but ban the practice of shooting wolves from airplanes to control their numbers. The legislation, introduced by Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Rep. George Miller would force Alaska game officials to declare a biological emergency that shows the imminent collapse of a species without the program."

In response, Pat Valkenburg, deputy commissioner of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, stated:

"What this bill does is essentially makes it impossible for Alaska to manage wolf populations in any sort of responsible way. We finally have a program that works and to end it because of the emotional feelings of uninformed people is just not a good idea."

Amendment 10 Of The United States Constitution- Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791, states the following:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Whatever your opinion on aerial wolf hunting, this ought to scare the BeJesus out of anyone who thinks that when the Government takes over Health Care it's all going to be hunky dory and in no way is Congress going to be micromanaging Doctor's and dictating which citizens get which treatment and which don't.

I can't think of anybody who on a daily basis demonstrates their disrespect for the US Constitution more than members of Congress.

[MJW]

For those interested in this kind of thing, the entire list of birth announcements from the Honolulu Advertiser is here. Previously, I'd only seen the names next to Obama's.

It isn't in alphabetical order or in order of birth. I wonder what order it is in. It would be very interesting to check each of the births in the parent-submitted announcements to see if there's a pattern between the order and where the births occurred. Unfortunately, none of my local libraries have microfilm for the Advertiser. I know it's available in Honolulu, and I believe it's available in Washington D.C.

Interestingly, I don't see the Nordyke twins in the list. They were born on August 5th, and there are some birth dates listed after that date.

Note that the list is titled "Health Bureau Statistics." I think that's very strong evidence they were sent out by the health department, not the hospitals or the parents.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

MJW: I don't know what to tell you then. A common ancestor WITH the registrant could be a sibling, a cousin, a Grandparent, aunts, uncles. Are you sure that this section isn't generic and then it is flushed out in other sections covering the various choices? A child would have a common ancestor, but the list specifically lists descendants, so a child would be covered there.

Sheesh! Why doesn't someone pay that half-bro drug addict living in a shack to apply. He would have a common ancestor with the registrant. LOL.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Have you checked the index for the LDS library or Ancestry.com to see if they have the Advertiser listed as one of the papers they have on file. You can do that online.

[But what do I know? Or what does anyone know? That's why we want to know..]

I suspect Obama has a photocopy of the long form vault copy in his possession. Doesn't he mention finding a birth certificate in a book in his grandparents' home in one of his book?

I suspect the birth certificate was a shock to him. I believe he was lied to about his origins.

[Jane]

It's morning again guys! Everyone spent the night being so damn interesting - what a fun early morning read. And Po those pix were a huge tease. What beautiful land. (Can we have the next Woodstock there?)

[Lizard]

MJW,

Is the whole Honolulu Advertiser story just another mirage? It seems like everybody has just accepted it as true, without verification .... jbjd makes a good case that there may be good reason to raise an eyebrow.

Also,
jbjd had another good post on the confusing statements of Fukino and the Hawaii officials.
Focus as much on what they don't say to what they do say ... maybe it does make sense.

This mystery is unfolding slowly but surely ... better than any movie!

[scott]

A cousin from the Dunham side, who is active army, filed a request last year and was told the record was sealed and the request would take a year to process. I think because of pending litigation. At the time Berg, Donofrio etc..

[Fact Check, My Ass.]

Excellent, Lizard; jbjd traces the provenance of the birth announcement to an anonymous poster on Texas Darlin'. Has anyone actually checked the archives of the newspapers?

[Digging 6X6X6's I'd guess.]

Nice Catch 22 for the Dunham relative. I wonder how his military career is going.

[clarice]

OT but here's a little informational piece on the snitch program

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dont-fret-your-fishy-complaints-about-health-care-reform/>Ptivacy Act

[clarice]

James Lewis on BO as The Wizard of Oz
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/obama_as_the_wizard_of_oz.html>A narcissist playing king of the world or something

[Parking Lot]

((The only reason I don't now is I'm thinking would Stanley Ann name her newborn son after a hired gun? ))

If it was a 'hired gun' scenario, I think it's totally plausible that she would name the baby after the gun. The Sr. Obama was a high profile and respected person on campus and in the clique they traveled in, so naming the child after him would add credibility to the charade. The problem would not have been her not wanting to name the child after him, but whether the Sr. Obama would find that acceptable.

[Appalled]

I think there is an interesting historical mystery on how Obama's Mom got to Washington state so promptly after giving birth. However, if you accept the August date of Mrs. Obama in Washington State, the Kenyan birth theory is nearly logically impossible, unless you believe also that the birthdate itself is fake.

Quesions that occur to me:

1. When did extnesion classes begin for Fall term 1961? Currently, Fall term at Washington begins in late September, and is set by regulations written in the 70s. the August beginning date seems rather odd.

2. Did Mrs. Obama have a tiff with her husband and give birth in Washington state?

This is the stuff Obama's biographer probably will delve into -- because the difference between the story Obama tells in his book, and the one actual records seems to yield is the sort of thing that interests historians.

Wonder if the true solution is that the original birth certificate is in Washington state?

[pagar]

It has been inspected by reporters,

The only people I trust less than politicians are MSM reporters. Remember these are the enemy supporters who told America that the Tet Offensive was a big win for North Vietnam. I can go on all day with the lies that have been posted by MSM reporters during my lifetime.

[PeterUK.]

"Here’s its take on Obama’s birth certificate: “FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving US citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. . . Our conclusion: Obama was born in the USA just as he has always said.” "

All this verifies is the authenticity of the birth certificate,not the authenticity of Obama. In the parlance, Obama and the birth certificate are "associated". I wouldn't buy this item unless it could be proved the two pieces have always been together.
Depending on the value,forensic tests would be needed.

[PeterUK.]

"If one applies for a United States passport, the passport office will demand a birth certificate. It defines this as an official document bearing 'your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records.' The Hawaiian birth certificate President Obama has produced—the document is formally known as a 'certificate of live birth'—bears that information."

What else is required? You wouldn't get a passport with just a birth certificate here. They want authenticated pictures.Your old passport if you are renewing.There is also an interview now.

[fdcol63]

One thing's for sure:

Given the nature of American society today, with increased and uncontrolled immigration and mixed-race relationships, this situation is more likely to occur again.

We should definitely improve our procedures to ensure compliance with Constitutional requirements for eligibility, or scrap the whole thing as meaningless.

[Robert Klein Engler]

There are two things that need to be done here. Supposedly, the COLB that FactCheck.org saw is now in a file cabinet somewhere in the White House. Ask Tommy Vietor to have another look at it. Why sould FactCheck be the only one to see it?

Then, go to Hawaii and ask to see the form Obama filled out to get the COLB. You have to do that to request a copy. You can download the form from the Hawaii webpage. No request form, no COLB sent.

[fdcol63]

How long before we see a Muslim as PM in the UK?

[pagar]

"I can't think of anybody who on a daily basis demonstrates their disrespect for the US Constitution more than members of Congress."

Well, I would add the Obama Administration, but definately, the members of Congress show it every day.

Daddy, is there some reason why California Congresspersons are so eager to protect wolves? I really can't think of any.

[J]

Wasn't mr. obama's sister also issued a certification by hawaii, of birth? And she was clearly born in indonesia. Also, what are the requirements in the USA to register to run for President? Aren't there any standards?

[Cecil Turner]

Ask Tommy Vietor to have another look at it. Why sould FactCheck be the only one to see it?

Who cares? It's still just a copy (of an electronic summary document, at that). In order to be remotely convincing, such a document would have to be sent directly from the agency to the person checking . . . not routed through partisans whose allies have a penchant for politically-motivated forgeries.

Still don't have much use for this whole dispute, but the actions of the Obama camp (releasing a digital scan of a copy of a summary document through DKos, then providing the copy to the Annenberg FactCheck bubbas as if it were the final word) seems to raise suspicions by design. And perhaps that's the point (still weird, though).

[PeterUK.]

fdcol63,
Things are polarising fast.Despite the endeavours of the MSM and the government to up the significance of this minority group ,it is still small.There are also other minority groups who feel excluded by this.

[PeterUK.]

"It has been inspected by reporters" is always good for a laugh.Some of them can only find their genitals because they have been there since they were born.

[narciso]

I was kind of interested in this briefly, because when I applied for a passport I needed to show my naturalization
certificate, When I did look into the Navy many years ago, I recall I did need the former not the latter document. I had never heard of a COLB before this. Sprechen Sie Deutche, huh.As for the wolf ban, It's almost like that terrible joke about attorneys and sharks, professional courtesy.
Speaking of wolves, the legislature wants to reverse the veto of the energy part of the stimulus

[matt]

The Democrats versus America. LUN

[PeterUK.]

"Two California Democrats have introduced legislation that would all but ban the practice of shooting wolves from airplanes to control their numbers. The legislation, introduced by Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Rep. George Miller would force Alaska game officials to declare a biological emergency that shows the imminent collapse of a species without the program."

A great idea. What better to keep libs and progs out of your state than have packs of marauding wolves?

[Porchlight]

Ras at -9, 49-51 overall.

The "strongly approve" mini-bounce of the last few days has disappeared. "Strongly disapprove" remains steady, and some weak approval seems to have morphed into weak disapproval.

[hit and run]

Daddy:
I can't think of anybody who on a daily basis demonstrates their disrespect for the US Constitution more than members of Congress.

Saw a bumpersticker on the back of a pickup driving down I-35 here in Texas:

Legalize the Constitution!

It's almost come to that, hasn't it?

[PeterUK.]

Obama is already skimming.

[ben]

Two categories of people known for their lack of bias, government officials and members of the press, assure us everything is perfectly kosher. How can there be any doubts?

[ben]

"Two California Democrats have introduced legislation that would all but ban the practice of shooting wolves from airplanes to control their numbers."

Aren't these the same people who say "our foremost and urgent priority is health care"? just asking....

[Captain Hate]

is there some reason why California Congresspersons are so eager to protect wolves?

Wolves have a certain fascination for the weak-minded who consider them dogs that have been unfairly maligned by people who aren't as "enlightened" as they are. They should go work at a ranch for some real world experience except they'd probably get somebody killed doing so.

[Pofarmer]

I can't think of anybody who on a daily basis demonstrates their disrespect for the US Constitution more than members of Congress.

So, how do We The People attempt to remedy that?

(Can we have the next Woodstock there?)

Hell No. Can't be tearin' up the crops.

Well, maybe if the rents REALLY good.

[fdcol63]

Well, I think it only natural that Congressional Dems want to protect their own kind.

After all, they're basically just wolves in a hen house (Congress) themselves.

[Pofarmer]

Hey jean

you can email me

missourchad at agristar dot net

[boris]

You might have heard the claim that "bears ... mountain lions ... wolves ... etc are more afraid of you than you are of them".

Which used to be true since all the fearless bears, lions, and wolves wound up shot dead before their genes could propagate.

Put a no kill restriction on dangerous predators (even human ones) for a few generations and problems not seen for decades or centuries reappear. Of course the proper way to deal with the reappearance is deny and scoff.

[Ranger]

"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe as long as the legislature is in session."

Ben Franklin

[Parking Lot]

Ranger

(("No man's life, liberty, or property are safe as long as the legislature is in session."

Ben Franklin
))

Coincidentally someone in a political forum that I frequent just posted this a few moments ago:

((Ben Franklin had wise advice:

"Repeal that [welfare] law, and you will soon see a change in their manners. St. Monday and St. Tuesday, will soon cease to be holidays. Six days shalt thou labor, though one of the old commandments long treated as out of date, will again be looked upon as a respectable precept; industry will increase, and with it plenty among the lower people; their circumstances will mend, and more will be done for their happiness by inuring them to provide for themselves, than could be done by dividing all your estates among them." --Benjamin Franklin, letter to Collinson, 1753))

[Tom Maguire]

Surely somebody could be found who has a common ancestor with Obama, and who has enough curiosity or greed to ask for a copy of the original birth certificate. I doubt I'm the first to think of this, so there must be something I don't understand.

Dick Cheney or his daughter spring to mind. [And have sprung to the minds of others, I see].