Send Better Rebuttals - No Dead Horse Left Unbeaten

Politico covers the relentless promotion of the 'birther' controversy by MSNBC and repeats a misconception offered yesterday by Andrew Sullivan:

More than a year ago, staff from Annenberg's FactCheck.org "touched, examined and photographed" Obama's "original birth certificate," according to the FactCheck.org site.

"It's case closed," said Brooks Jackson, FactCheck's director.

As Yogi Berra almost said, "original" doesn't mean what it originally did.  Anyone reading the Fact Check report would see that they are not referring to original source documents held by the State of Hawaii.  Instead, they are referring to the short form Certification of Live Birth held by the Obama campaign.

What happened is that Team Obama released an electronic image of the short form to the Daily Kos, not widely viewed as the most objective source in news.  Critics wondered whether the document had been electronically altered.  Fact Check sleuths went to Obama headquarters to examine the "original" document, by which they meant, whatever piece of paper TeamOama was passing off as authentic.

From Fact Check:

In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen. But the image prompted more blog-based skepticism about the document's authenticity. And recently, author Jerome Corsi, whose book attacks Obama, said in a TV interview that the birth certificate the campaign has is "fake."

We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate.

...Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it's stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs.

And their photographs are of the short form.  Meanwhile, the original original documentation, which neither Fact Check nor any other news organization has examined, remains within the records of the State of Hawaii, and Obama resolutley refuses to request their release.

For what it is worth, my opinion is that the Obama campaign is not waving some forged short form document, so I share the opinion of Politico reporter and fantasist Michael Calderone.  But I am not stating as fact that either I or anyone in the media has examined the original forms.  Nor am I cleverly quoting Fact Check when their context makes it clear that by "original" they didn't really mean "original".

Send better rebuttals and reporters separated from the faith-based community.

PILING ON:  Politifact kinda sorta had the State of Hawaii "examine" the short form certificate, if asking a Dept of Health spokesperson to inspect an emailed electronic image meets your conception of examine.  The result:

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it."

Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."

Close enough for government work!

Comments

[PeterUK]

Has anyone examined the "original" Obama?
It is OK verifying a piece of paper,but who is verifying him?

[Xrlq]

The short form certificate issued by the State of Hawaii is every bit the "original" that the older, long form certificate is. Both are independent certifications by the State of Hawaii as to the facts stated therein. Both contain all the information of constitutional import and then some. Either could, theoretically, be a forgery.

Not that it matters, anyway, as Obama would clearly qualify as a natural born citizen no matter where he was born. Or do the birthers think Stanley Ann Dunham wasn't a citizen, either?

[Sue]

You can have an original Michelle porcelain doll for 4 payments of 29.95. I'm not sure why you would want one, but the ad on the side is pushing it.

[sylvia]

Okay thanks Tom. I was a little confused by the FactCheck statement. So when they say "original" they mean the original photocopy of the short form, the thing we already know about. Okay, and Sully got convinced HOW by this?

[PeterUK]

Xrlq

No,the certificate might qualify as a natural born citizen,but how does this connect with Obama. Has it got his infant fingerprints on it,his blood group? What certifies that Obama and the birth certiifcate belong together.
Might seem picky,but you had seen the amount of stuff floating around with dodgy provenance.

[clarice]

There's a career for you in forensic document examination, TM. Keep up the good fight!

[Frantz Fanon]

This is sort of off topic, but now that people are finally beginning to realize the extent to which the media lies for Obama everyday, I think it would be a good time to look back at the Tony Rezko situation. This is the Chicago political fixer/bagman who bought the yard for the Obama house. This was never covered the way it should have been.

This is the kind of rebuttal they got away with at the time.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200706150006

But the "next-door lot" was the yard for the Obama mansion (i.e. it was within the fence that surrounded stately Obama Manor). When they needed to put a fence up (as Obama became more well-known) Rezko had to sell back about 1/6 of the so-called Rezko Lot so that they could put up a fence that didn't run through the Obama's driveway and house. Now that people have had their eyes opened about who Obama is (and always has been) I think this is a story that needs revisiting.

[GMax]

OT

More BASEBALL TM. The Rangers are now tied with the SOX for the wild card spot.

This is big news, maybe the biggest since the ghost of Ruth gave up on the Curse of the Bambino, professional baseball in Arlington and it riding pitching to the these almost never before seen heights.

[Sue]

GMax,

Shhh...don't jinx us!

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Might seem picky,but you had seen the amount of stuff floating around with dodgy provenance.

PUK, did you ever hear the story about the guy who spent an entire career on proving that the Odyssey wasn't written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name?

[Sue]

Not that it matters, anyway, as Obama would clearly qualify as a natural born citizen no matter where he was born. Or do the birthers think Stanley Ann Dunham wasn't a citizen, either?

I don't think it is all that clear. His mother wasn't old enough to confer citizenship to Obama at the time of his birth. His father was a Kenyan. If it was all that clear, no one would be questioning it, unless they are questioning whether Ann was his mother.

[Cecil Turner]

The short form certificate issued by the State of Hawaii is every bit the "original" that the older, long form certificate is.

That's completely irrelevant to this case, where the document in question has a stamp saying "I certify this is a true copy or abstract . . ." [emphasis added]. As to factcheck insisting they looked at the "original," I don't think that word means what they think it means.

[Xrlq]

Sue, your statement about Dunham's age is technically correct but irrelevant. BHO wasn't elected president in 1961. He was elected in 2008 and inaugurated in 2009. Under the law in effect at all relevant times, anyone born on or after December 24, 1952 to one U.S. citizen who had lived in the U.S. for at least 5 years, and at least 2 following his/her 14th birthday, is a "citizen and national at birth," which is the closest phrase to "natural born citizen" appearing anywhere in the United States Code. Just because a bunch of conspiratorial nuts *are* questioning something, that is not evidence that such questions are legitimate. The facts are clear enough for those who are interested in actually knowing them rather than spinning lame excuses not to.

Cecil, you're wrong. Both birth certificates certify the facts stated in the document itself. The only difference is that one certificate contains more information, none of which is constitutionally relevant (though it may well be embarrassing to Obama in other ways). If you can't trust the State of Hawaii not to issue a COLB falsely claiming someone was born in Hawaii who wasn't, then why the devil would you trust a document purporting to be the long-form birth certificate, either?

[DrJ]

[A] guy ... spent an entire career on proving that the Odyssey wasn't written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name?

Is that so? A student asked the prof this question in my freshman great books class back in the day. We all thought he was a kook, but maybe, just maybe, he was not without *any* foundation.

[PeterUK]

Charlie,
A very common occurrence,in many disputed writings.Sometimes they are right,sometimes they are wrong,but it is a legitimate area for research. Happens in science as well as history. Solidly held beliefs turn out to be wrong.
In history,the further back you get the more tenuous become the links.

[Sue]

Xrlq,

Not according to the http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html>US State Department.

The facts are clear enough for those who are interested in actually knowing them rather than spinning lame excuses not to.

I thought I knew them. Point me to a cite that states what you claim it states and I'll reconsider.

[Sue]

It would be better for Obama if his parents weren't married. Darn that pesky divorce decree.

Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Mother: A child born abroad out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen mother may acquire U.S. citizenship under Section 301(g) INA, as made applicable by Section 309(c) INA if the mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of the child's birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.

[Sue]

Just so everyone knows what the relevant statute says regarding the mother's age..

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.

[Roux]

Don't you mean "no dead Unicorn left unbeaten"?

[Xrlq]

Sue, try reading 8 U.S.C. 1401(g). The language of that statute is very clear, and your State Department link doesn't contradict it (though it bears noting that if a statute and the word of a federal agency did conflict, the statute wins every time).

[Porchlight]

Xrlq, you left off an important part. That statute only applies if the citizen parent is a member of the Armed Forces, an unmarried dependent child of a currently serving member, or a government employee. See the language that follows after section (g) beginning with "Provided....":

8 U.S.C. 1401

g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and (h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

[Xrlq]

Crud, I missed the follow up quote from the State Department before responding. Here's what the statute says:

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: (a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

[...]
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date;

I've always read this to mean that the Subsection (g) requirement applies to anyone born on or after 12/24/1952, but I suppose one could read "this proviso" more narrowly to cover only the provision related to military service and international organizations.

[Cecil Turner]

Cecil, you're wrong. Both birth certificates certify the facts stated in the document itself.

Dude, you're out to lunch. A copy is not an original. (In fact they're antonyms.) The thing in the Obama camp's possession is a copy. If you're unable to acknowledge this simple undisputed fact, it's going to be hard to accept anything else you pretend to know something about.

If you can't trust the State of Hawaii not to issue a COLB falsely claiming someone was born in Hawaii who wasn't, then why the devil would you trust a document purporting to be the long-form birth certificate, either?

Well, except the teensy little point that nobody checked a COLB from the State of Hawaii, they checked the one given them by Obama handlers. So you don't just have to trust the State of Hawaii, you have to trust the Obama handlers as well. (Just as the Little League folks had to trust Danny Almonte's dad . . . Ooops.) Personally I'd be a lot more confident with something that hadn't been fondled by the Kos Kiddies.

[Sue]

Xrlq,

I don't want to start an argument with you, but that doesn't say what you think it does. The INA, what I quoted above, is statute and is found inside the USC.

[Sue]

Thanks Porch.

[Porchlight]

Personally I'd be a lot more confident with something that hadn't been fondled by the Kos Kiddies.

If Obama had wanted to do it the right way, he would have authorized Hawaii to send a COLB by registered mail directly to each of the major news organizations.

Even then, it would still be just a COLB, not a copy of the long form BC which contains more information, but it wouldn't have been physically handled by anyone except Hawaii officials, and it wouldn't have the Kos stink. The fact that he didn't do it this way is what raised so many eyebrows when the Kos COLB first appeared.

[Sue]

Porch,

There was a website set up, I can't think of the name of it now, by Obama's people, fight the smears, maybe? That was where the COLB was originally supposed to be posted. It didn't show up there and wound up at Kos. That is why my eyebrows went up. Why Kos?

[Porchlight]

You're welcome, Sue.

Xrlq, thanks for reading onward. I think all the sections, a-g, are meant to be covered by the proviso.

[bgates]

If Obama had wanted to do it the right way, he would have authorized Hawaii to send a COLB by registered mail directly to each of the major news organizations.

Along with a handwritten note on how he expected their coverage to read. Imagine the controversy that would have generated, as the fiercely independent journalists fought over who got to take the note home.

[Porchlight]

Sue,

I thought Fight the Smears picked it up from Kos eventually. But yeah, that makes it even weirder.

[Cecil Turner]

The fact that he didn't do it this way is what raised so many eyebrows when the Kos COLB first appeared.

Yeah, I still think this is much ado about not much, but the handling of the thing was weird. And FactCheck's claim to've checked the original is just plain false. TM is more excited about the long form than I am (and I suppose if you're wanting to go on a fishing expedition, you might as well look for the bigger fish), but it's hard to see how any plausible difference between the two documents could impact his eligibility.

[Porchlight]

Heh, bgates. Well, if Fox got left out, at least we'd know why.

[PeterUK]

"Why Kos?"

Because under Obama everybody gets payback.

"Maaashter shend ush a shign"

"OK Rahm,what's cheap"?

[DebinNC]

The fact that he didn't do it this way is what raised so many eyebrows when the Kos COLB first appeared.

I didn't know that. It sounds fishy.

[PeterUK]

" but it's hard to see how any plausible difference between the two documents could impact his eligibility. "

Just an edit if I may?

"but it's hard to see how any plausible difference between the two documents could impact his credibility."

[Sue]

I thought Fight the Smears picked it up from Kos eventually.

I wouldn't trust my memory anymore, so don't bet on anything I tell you, but I seem to remember FTS having a post the day before it was released at Kos saying FTS would be posting it and then Kos did. Where's Top when you need her? Memory is her middle name.

[RELIAPUNDIT]

XLRQ IS NOW A BIRTHER!

RIGHT ON!

[Porchlight]

but it's hard to see how any plausible difference between the two documents could impact his eligibility.

Unless there was some kind of later amendment to the long form, I agree. The evidence strongly suggests he was born in Hawaii.

I think the Indonesian citizenship aspect is a lot more interesting. As in did he have it, and if so, when did he renounce it? Ann Dunham and Lolo Soetoro didn't divorce until Obama was 19. Apart from any eligibility considerations, would it have influenced Americans' votes in November if they knew Obama had retained Indonesian citizenship into adulthood?

[Jack is Back!]

It is my theory that Obama and his team of thugs are telling us to "shut up" about health care and stop being un-American so that we will only talk about birth certificates which leaves them laughing in the aisle. I realize we are stuck on a very legitimate but trivial debating point regarding the "copy" of COLB and the "original" certificate. Also, we are kicking a dead horse with the regard we are giving to Orly Taitz and her smoking gun or a Kenyan certificate. As long as people with better brains than Orly and the birthers are diverted from the realpolitik the Obama team is winning the PR battle.

I have also asked all my Canadian friends to write to flag@whitehouse.gov and confess that they were the ones who told me 1st hand accounts of their problems with Canadian health care. I want to pre-empt anybody from SEIU knocking on my door demanding to see my COLB in this country. My wife thinks I should pack up all our valuables now and transfer them to Switzerland in case the SEIU doesn't accept my COLB as an original.

[PeterUK]

"It is my theory that Obama and his team of thugs are telling us to "shut up" about health care and stop being un-American so that we will only talk about birth certificates which leaves them laughing in the aisle. I realize we are stuck on a very legitimate but trivial debating point regarding the "copy" of COLB"

Most people are not. Don't worry.

[narciso]

The birth certificate is a low buzz, generally, the single payer option, is the big issue now.which Moran thinks is the only problem with it,than again it appears he doesn't actually read the bills in question, or the background of the sponsors,
or any of a number of annoying details

[Justice is one hardnosed Lady]

Don't be birthin' no misdirection. The comeuppance cometh.

Reporting from Washington -- U.S. Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. is poised to appoint a criminal prosecutor to investigate alleged CIA abuses committed during the interrogation of terrorism suspects, current and former U.S. government officials said.

A senior Justice Department official said that Holder envisioned an inquiry that would be narrow in scope, focusing on "whether people went beyond the techniques that were authorized" in Bush administration memos that liberally interpreted anti-torture.

Pool, Getty Images
A guard outside the gate of Camp Iguana at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Waterboarding cases may prove to be the easiest to prosecute.
Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected
Detainee treatment
Email Picture
Pool, Getty Images
A guard outside the gate of Camp Iguana at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Waterboarding cases may prove to be the easiest to prosecute.
Insiders say Atty. Gen. Eric Holder is close to naming a prosecutor to look into reports of excessive waterboarding and other unauthorized methods. Convictions could be hard to get.
By Greg Miller and Josh Meyer
August 9, 2009
Reporting from Washington -- U.S. Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. is poised to appoint a criminal prosecutor to investigate alleged CIA abuses committed during the interrogation of terrorism suspects, current and former U.S. government officials said.

A senior Justice Department official said that Holder envisioned an inquiry that would be narrow in scope, focusing on "whether people went beyond the techniques that were authorized" in Bush administration memos that liberally interpreted anti-torture laws.

* Atty. Gen. Eric Holder
Atty. Gen. Eric Holder
* U.S. prison plan for Guantanamo inmates under review, officials say
U.S. prison plan for Guantanamo...

*
Obama relents to judge's order on releasing Guantanamo detainee
*
Memos reveal harsh CIA interrogation methods
*
Bush-era intelligence issues trip up Obama

Current and former CIA and Justice Department officials who have firsthand knowledge of the interrogation files contend that criminal convictions will be difficult to obtain because the quality of evidence is poor and the legal underpinnings have never been tested.

Some cases have not previously been disclosed, including an instance in which a CIA operative brought a gun into an interrogation booth to force a detainee to talk, officials said.

Other potentially criminal abuses have already come to light, including the waterboarding of prisoners in excess of Justice Department guidelines, and the deaths of detainees in CIA custody in Afghanistan and Iraq in 2002 and 2003.

Carry on, birfers.

[Justice is one hardnosed Lady]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cia-interrogate9-2009aug09,0,34626.story?page=1

[Willi Munzenberg]

Obama did need a Reichstag Fire to distract the people-going after the CIA is as good as any to start. Don't forget that Ramadan starts August 22 and ends September 20th. Watch out for the night of the 16th.

[Pagar]

Now that people have had their eyes opened about who Obama is (and always has been) I think this is a story that needs revisiting.

Every story that Obama has told needs revisiting.

[PeterUK]

Another good idea. Poke a bunch of,trained liars,subversives,torturers,assassins,spies and secret snatchers in the balls with a stick.
You know it makes sense!

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

MSNBC Anchor: ''Socialist' Is Becoming the New N-word'

Thank God I only call Obama a narcissistic neo-Stalinist and not a Socialist.

[MayBee]

Sue- you are exactly right. Fight the smears was all set up to show the certificate. Karen Tumulty said she saw the site the night before with links to a PDF (? Pretty sure it was PDF) copy. But the next day FTS went live without it and Kos posted it saying only that he got it by asking for it.

[daddy]

For anybody still nutty enough to be seriously paying attention to Andrew Sullivan, he just appeared on the Dennis Miller Show. It was on a CIA torture segment, so if the MSM is looking for their foot-soldiers to start the ball rolling in applauding Holder's Special Prosecutor effort in order to tarnish Cheney/Conservatives etc, Andrew's ready for action.

Only caught the last 10 minutes of hour 2, but immediately recognized Andrew's hysterical voice as he went on about how we tortured prisoners, how Churchill would have loathed waterboarding, and how Dennis was not letting him finish his points. If you know anything about Dennis Miller you know he's as mild and mellow as they come and that any charge that he was trying to stifle Andrew's ability to make whatever dick-witted points he was trying to make is a complete load of horsh@#t.

Anyhow, if anyone heard the complete segment and thought it was worth listening to in full or linking to, please link or comment. I doubt my listening to it in full would have added anything to what I gathered in the 1 minute or so I heard of Andrew's hysterical rant. I found nothing worthy of taking as a point of truth or argument at all. I'm off on a long bike-ride now as it's beautiful, but will happily try to dig up those Churchill quotes again where's he angry at Briton having to play the nice decent guy when Nazi's get all the advantages of playing the cad, and wishing it wasn't so. Sort of flies in the face of Andrew's made up, mythologized image of Sir Winston, but oh well.

Dennis closed the segment after Andrew left by humorously asiding to Sal, something like, "Why didn't you clue me in on the fact that Andrew Sullivan was gay...Gee I'd have never known.... "

Later.

[PeterUK]

Has anyone else noticed that the spokesdrones for Obama call him Obama,not President Obama?

"Obama said this ,etc"

Did any other president get this quasi=religious pop star nomenclature from his myrmidons?

[Frau Geburtsurkunde]

"Meanwhile, the original original documentation ... remains within the records of the State of Hawaii, and Obama resolutley refuses to request their release."

According to Ayers', er, Obama's (auto?)biography, Obama saw the original birth certificate along with his vaccination and other records. I'm sure he received his childhood papers either before but certainly after the death of his mother. David Axelturf has been documenting the life and times of this "transformational" president (what's your thought *now*, Gen. Powell?) since 2003. Axelturf probably has every last piece of paper with Barry's name on it plus the belly button lint and nail clippings for the last 6 years.

[PaulL]

Some cases have not previously been disclosed, including an instance in which a CIA operative brought a gun into an interrogation booth to force a detainee to talk, officials said.

TV cops and movie cops do this as often as real cops eat doughnuts, and they're written as the scripts' heroes. I don't see how news of a CIA operative's methods is going to horrify anyone who isn't already breathlessly horrified.

[Sue]

MayBee,

Thank you. I remembered some of the details but not all of them.

[jl]

Just throwing this in the mix. There's a website, www.debbieschlussel.com, that has some interesting information that Obama's selective service registration may have been generated in 2008, not 1980.

[Frau Geburtsurkunde]

"Obama saw the original birth certificate along with his ...other records." He most likely saw the copy of his long form which his mother received when he was born. His mother had to have a copy to have him adopted by husband #2.

If all of this were in a science fiction book, the reader would know that unusual and surprising events were soon going to happen.

[Porchlight]

Thanks, MayBee!

[peter]

Daddy, I heard the last ten minutes of the Dennis Miller interview of Andrew Sullivan as well. I didn't know it was Randy Andy Muscle Glutes until the interview was over. I thought Dennis did a great job. In fairness to Andy, he didn't sound like such a nutjob, but then again, he knew he was on a conservative show, so his points were targeted to a conservative audience, at least in the brief segment I heard.

[peter]

Obama's draft registration was definitely late, and a violation of the law, and just as likely to gain traction as the birth certificate. Let's focus on keeping him from getting reelected.

[clarice]

Maybe Holder can start with Spann who was so easy going on the thugs they bit him to death.

[PeterUK]

Even the Russians have noticed the slide into Marxism!

[narciso]

If this were a science fiction tale, the To Serve Man" cookbook would have come up, by now.

Now, Russia has had a very bitter experience
with Communism, Putin maybe many things, a Russian nationalist in the mold of the czar'sPobedenestev and the prime ministers Witte and Stolypin, but he's no Marxist, in fact he has upbraided Obama for the ruinous
fiscal policy he has embarked on,

[cathyf]

Ok, this is OT but the birther stuff has long-ago devolved to the point where everything to be said has been said over and over.

Has anyone else noticed that Chrysler dealers especially don't have any cars that they can sell people? The Chrysler dealer for our county is a family friend, and he says that there are hardly any cars left on lots, and that they are a weird picked-over collection.

Way to go, Auto Czar!!!

[Terry Gain]

but it's hard to see how any plausible difference between the two documents could impact his eligibility.

No, it's not. Unless the claims in this article are not true, namely that Hawaii issued birth certificates on the say so of the mother without independent proof. The COLB could thus, as claimed by Hawaiian officials, be consistent with the LFBC on file, but if the LFBC is not signed by a doctor or midwife questions will remain as to where Obama was born.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2697

I think this is this is the best guess as to why the LFBC has not been released.

Terry Gain (Not A Birther But Clearly An Enthusiastic Documenter)

[Terry Gain]

Here's a live link to the interesting article that describes how Hawaii issues birth certificates

[Terry Gain]

Here's a live link to the interesting article that describes how Hawaii issues birth certificates

[peter]

OT. I just saw the video of Hillary snapping at some kid in Africa for asking about her husband's opinion. Sheesh, Hillary has really let herself go in the looks department; must be going through some kind of depression or something. Sorry, no LUN, but I saw it at Ace of Spades HQ.

[doornail]

One of your own is calling bullshit on Palin's "Death Boards" propaganda.

Is this bill going to euthanize my grandmother? What are we talking about here?

In the health-care debate mark-up, one of the things I talked about was that the most money spent on anyone is spent usually in the last 60 days of life and that's because an individual is not in a capacity to make decisions for themselves. So rather than getting into a situation where the government makes those decisions, if everyone had an end-of-life directive or what we call in Georgia "durable power of attorney," you could instruct at a time of sound mind and body what you want to happen in an event where you were in difficult circumstances where you're unable to make those decisions.

This has been an issue for 35 years. All 50 states now have either durable powers of attorney or end-of-life directives and it's to protect children or a spouse from being put into a situation where they have to make a terrible decision as well as physicians from being put into a position where they have to practice defensive medicine because of the trial lawyers. It's just better for an individual to be able to clearly delineate what they want done in various sets of circumstances at the end of their life.

How did this become a question of euthanasia?

I have no idea. I understand -- and you have to check this out -- I just had a phone call where someone said Sarah Palin's web site had talked about the House bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized. How someone could take an end of life directive or a living will as that is nuts. You're putting the authority in the individual rather than the government. I don't know how that got so mixed up.

You're saying that this is not a question of government. It's for individuals.

It empowers you to be able to make decisions at a difficult time rather than having the government making them for you.

The policy here as I understand it is that Medicare would cover a counseling session with your doctor on end-of-life options.

Correct. And it's a voluntary deal.

It seems to me we're having trouble conducting an adult conversation about death. We pay a lot of money not to face these questions. We prefer to experience the health-care system as something that just saves you, and if it doesn't, something has gone wrong.

Over the last three-and-a-half decades, this legislation has been passed state-by-state, in part because of the tort issue and in part because of many other things. It's important for an individual to make those determinations while they're of sound mind and body rather than no one making those decisions at all. But this discussion has been going on for three decades.

What got you interested in this subject?

I've seen the pain and suffering in families with a loved one with a traumatic brain injury or a crippling degenerative disease become incapacitated and be kept alive under very difficult circumstances when if they'd have had the chance to make the decision themself they'd have given another directive and I've seen the damage financially that's been done to families and if there's a way to prevent that by you giving advance directives it's both for the sanity of the family and what savings the family has it's the right decision, certainly more than turning it to the government or a trial lawyer.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_the_government_going_to_eut.html

[Hearingandseeingoverobamabodwhor]

Birthers just can't win over the warm and cold earthers and their war.

The birth certificate is not a fake if it's okay in Hawaii to not be born there and be born there if your registered in two years. So, it's a fake birth certificate. Obama was not born there, but was naturalized during the two year period and considered born in the US by Hawaii although he wasn't; so, like natives he got special treatment making him a real native Hawaiian with all those birth controversies that go along with those. It's not like the CIA lawyer who got him his Hawaii birth certificate for his informant father would use natives to hide a CIA informant legacy and all the Harvard deals and predisnets and stuff.

[narciso]

Everybody knows Ezra Klein and the rest of the Journolist's 'money is no good here' Tom only posts him here, kind of like a pinata, to target his pathetic reasoning

[doornail]

Is the Government Going to Euthanize your Grandmother? An Interview With Sen. Johnny Isakson.

Sarah Palin's belief that the House health-care reform bill would create "death panels" might be particularly extreme, but she's hardly the only person to wildly misunderstand the section of the bill ordering Medicare to cover voluntary end-of-life counseling sessions between doctors and their patients.

One of the foremost advocates of expanding Medicare end-of-life planning coverage is Johnny Isakson, a Republican Senator from Georgia. He co-sponsored 2007's Medicare End-of-Life Planning Act and proposed an amendment similar to the House bill's Section 1233 during the Senate HELP Committee's mark-up of its health care bill. I reached Sen. Isakson at his office this afternoon. He was befuddled that this had become a question of euthanasia, termed Palin's interpretation "nuts," and emphasized that all 50 states currently have some legislation allowing end-of-life directives. A transcript of our conversation follows.

[Stephanie]

Doornail meet hammer...

LUN

[Stephanie]

I know JI, I talked to JI... he hasn't read the bill. And is surprised at the actual language in it...

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Although I support wholeheartedly EVERYONE, not just Seniors, have a Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare AND a Directive to Physicians and to make sure that all relevant parties discuss these documents way ahead of time, I don't like lying.

Sarah Palin ASKED A QUESTION. What is with the left that they cannot understand a rhetorical question?

Quoting Palin:

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

My Mother was quite able to speak for herself right up to the end, but unfortunately, due to the drugging they did of her, there were times when she did not appear to understand. I had a hospital administrator try to dictate what her care/treatment would be. My Mother understood what was going on and nearly broke my arm when she grabbed me from the bed and told me they were going to try to kill her off and it was up to me to fight the battle she could not at that moment.

Thank God I had all the proper "powers" so they could not shovel me out of the loop. God knows they tried.

Even though her directive specified a DNR, I knew from talks over several years after she had signed everything that she meant in extraordinary circumstances, and not because they were drugging her to make it seem she was far gone into dementia. Since the legal paperwork was in place, I was able to demand that they stop 15 of the 17 drugs they were loading her down with and it wasn't long before she was on her feet and having a great ol' time for another 4 years of productive life.

You might be able to trust your doctor, but do NOT, REPEAT DO NOT, trust those in power, whether Congress or a hospital administrator, nursing home coordinator, and especially not those so-called elder care socialist workers.

[doornail]

And he's not commenting on the entire thing, just this narrow topic. And nowhere in the interview did he decline comment because he was unfamiliar with the subject matter, which is what you're claiming.

Nice try though.

[Captain Hate]

One of your own is calling bullshit

Ezra? One of mine? Heh.

[Stephanie]

Spoke with him today...

Sorry, you lose.

[doornail]

For the reading impaired:

Johnny Isakson, a Republican Senator from Georgia

Johnny Isakson, a Republican Senator from Georgia

Johnny Isakson, a Republican Senator from Georgia

Johnny Isakson, a Republican Senator from Georgia

Johnny Isakson, a Republican Senator from Georgia

[doornail]

Sorry, you lose.

Well, I spoke to him today and he said you were full of shit, that the public record clearly and unequivocally states his position on the matter.

So I guess that settles that, huh?

[doornail]

Get your "interview" published in the WaPo and get back to us; hearsay doesn't cut it.

[doornail]

Gladney is accepting donations toward his medical expenses. Gladney told reporters he was recently laid off and has no health insurance.

Ouch. Seems like your posterboy has an interesting back story.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/7C2B91CFCB7B4D398625760D0008E6EA?OpenDocument

[narciso]

So what, Dead as, this is supposed to impress us, Republican Senator. wow we're cowering in our boots, we're not crazy about
Lindsey Graham either or McCain for that matter; although we respect him more than most.

[doornail]

Isakson has been given an "A" rating by the National Rifle Association, the "Hero of the Taxpayer" award by Citizens Against Government Waste, and a "92" rating on a scale of 100 by the Christian Coalition of America....National Journal recently rated him the 7th most conservative Senator in the Senate....He has an 'A' grade from immigration-reduction advocacy group Americans for Better Immigration.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Oh go back to the hole you crawled out of doornail.

The man was beaten, called a n*gger, spent a night in the hospital and the perps were arrested.

He was not "laid off" and he stated categorically that is inaccurate. He is unemployed.

And he never said he didn't have health insurance. He stated plainly that he is covered by his wife's insurance.

He also said he is a political "independent."

Instead of getting your talking points from leftie blogs, why not get them from the horse's mouth.

[Stephanie]

Johnny Isakson my senator... hmmm.

John Linder my congressman... hmm.

Guess I'm from Georgia.

[Stephanie]

Yep... my driver's license confirms it. I'm 6.7 miles from Linder's office BTW and 23.7 from Isakson's. My Garmin made it all so easy...

[doornail]

He stated plainly that he is covered by his wife's insurance.

Let's replay:

Gladney is accepting donations toward his medical expenses. Gladney told reporters he was recently laid off and has no health insurance.

So if he has insurance, then he's apparently a con artist looking to make a fast buck on his sob story.

[Frau Geburtsurkunde]

"Has anyone else noticed that Chrysler dealers especially don't have any cars that they can sell people?"
The lots will be empty and there will be no new cars made or not enough new cars made. Will the new owners, Barack and the UAW, be able to get an industry up and running or will they just let it all wither on the vine?

[narciso]

I like Linder, I like Kingston, hell they're better than my local congress persons. That doesn't mean they are the authority on medical ethics. You notice
I'm still using this particular LUN.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I gave you the link to the audio interview with a reporter. The St. Louis reporter is the one you should go after as the paper got it wrong. Listen to the first person interview and forget what you read at Think Progress.

[Frau Geburtsurkunde]

Sen.Isakson (R-GA), it seems, has not read Dr.Emanuel's prescription for Americans. Has Ezra Klein? Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel has been called Dr. Death even though he is "a leading opponent of state-assisted suicide." His method is to give the palliative red or blue pill and let nature take its course. The youngest and the oldest, not to mention disabled and feeble-minded, will be the last to receive treatment if any at all. Read the stinking information and the bill. Why go to the senator from Georgia except to take issue with Sarah Palin who is criticizing rationing of treatment and *not* an end of life directive. This is classic leftist misdirection.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Fire the UAW workers and put the 40,000 about to be released CA prisoners to work building cars. They're being released due to overcrowding. Let them go to work and save us all bunches of money. Could 40,000 non-violent offenders be worse than the union thugs who are out beating up citizens or smashing them in the face? I doubt it.

Have I mentioned that I despise unions.

[Stephanie]

Saw a post on another site tonight (maybe PW or Ace's) that dealerships in Phil are holding the cars they sold til the $4500 comes in from the government... or you can give them a $4500 check for collateral and drive off the lot.

The dealers are afraid they aren't going to get paid by the government... wonder what could have given them that idea?

[JM Hanes]

No, Fight the Smears did not post the COLB before Kos got it. It had never even been mentioned elsewhere till then. Team Obama subsequently told Tumulty that they were publishing and distributing a PDF which never materialized. What they posted instead at Fight the Smears was a much reduced version of the same image posted by Kos -- at a resolution so low that it was thoroughly pixelated from top to bottom.

IIRC, Fight the Smears was actually geared up in response to the brouhaha that the Kos posting elicited. They added a couple of risibly trivial "smears" to the mix to make it look like a legitimate effort, but it went virtually dead almost immediately thereafter.

[doornail]

Link to youtube 'attack' video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3aTQt1XEWY

Frankly I expected at least some blood after reading the right-wing's breathless descriptions.

Oh, and it was another black guy that called him a nigger; odd that you thought that wasn't worth mentioning in your little synopsis.

[Stephanie]

Well, I took the OforA up on their offer and signed up and went in to tell the gentlemen what I thought of the healthcare plan. I don't think I gave them the message that they intended me to, though...

LUN for the signup

[Stephanie]

Oh, and it was another black guy that called him a ni**er

Why on earth would that make it ok?

or Do as I say not as I do?

Either way you're a racist for approving this vulgar speech based on skin color.

[doornail]

The dealers are afraid they aren't going to get paid by the government... wonder what could have given them that idea?

The dealerships need to make sure the vehicle qualifies under the terms of the program and the best way to do that is to wait for the feds to give a definitive answer.

[JM Hanes]

doornail:

A man is beaten up by thugs -- who are arrested for it -- and you're calling it a con job? That pretty much beats all. Well almost beats all, till you get to the part where beating a black man and calling him a nigger is A-OK if it's another black guy who's doing it.

[Stephanie]

BZZZT... wrong answer.

There is a list of the approved vehicles, both for the clunker and for the new vehicle.

Instapundit was appalled that his Mazda RX7 made the clunkers list.

The dealers are not sure the money will ever be paid. Might have something to do with the present government making promises and laws and not sticking to them...

Thanks for playing, though.

[doornail]

Either way you're a racist for approving this vulgar speech based on skin color.

Most people acknowledge the distinction, other people prefer to feign ignorance.