The always-reliable NY Times probes deeply into the question of why these death panel rumors swirl around Obama, helpfully likening them to the rumors about Obama being a Muslim or not an American:
WASHINGTON — The stubborn yet false rumor that President Obama’s health care proposals would create government-sponsored “death panels” to decide which patients were worthy of living seemed to arise from nowhere in recent weeks.
And in the course of talking about runaway costs and ways to reduce them, Obama actually advocated end-of-life panels issuing voluntary guidelines with Timesman David Leonhardt, as reported in the Times; by way of introduction, Obama had been discussing the story of his grandmother, who was terminally ill with cancer when she had an expensive hip replacement procedure so that she would not be bed-ridden for the last three to nine months of her life:
THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.
LEONHARDT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?
So as of April 2009 Obama himself expected the final legislation to include some sort of group (but NOT a "death panel"!) that would produce voluntary guidelines for end of life care with an eye towards saving money.
And now Obama is plagued by scurrilous rumors that his legislation will include groups that issue guidelines for end of life care with the goal of saving money. Fortunately, the Times has looked everywhere but their own candidate and their own website and firmly concluded that the rumors are false.
That is a characteristically great effort by the Times. We look forward to their hard-hitting coverage of the latest installment of the John Edwards debacle.
[BELATED PILING ON: In their own coverage of the Obama interview Peter Baker of the Times wrote this on May 1:
Some conservatives have cited Mr. Obama’s story to make the case that his plan to expand access to health care and reduce costs ultimately will result in rationing, of the kind that might have denied his grandmother the surgery unless she paid the bill on her own.
Evidently, once Sarah Palin spoke the Times forgot their own interview and their own reporting].
HOW VOLUNTARY? And how voluntary will these imagined guidelines be? Doctors that are currently free to prescribe painkillers volunteer not to, to avoid hassles from the DEA. Mightn't doctors prefer to follow the "voluntary" end-of-life guidelines rather than risk Federal examination of their taxes, expenses, hiring decisions, and payroll? That would depend in large part on how aggressively the government chose to push the "voluntary" guidelines.
Based on the current public reaction to these "rumors" I would imagine that the Feds will steer clear of this, for now anyway.
BY WAY OF CONTRAST: The Wall Street Journal editors think the death panel talk is "over the top" but opines that seniors have a point:
Elderly Americans are turning out in droves to fight ObamaCare, and President Obama is arguing back that they have nothing to worry about. Allow us to referee. While claims about euthanasia and "death panels" are over the top, senior fears have exposed a fundamental truth about what Mr. Obama is proposing: Namely, once health care is nationalized, or mostly nationalized, rationing care is inevitable, and those who have lived the longest will find their care the most restricted.
They do tackle Obama's gramdmother:
Before he got defensive, Mr. Obama was open about this political calculation. He often invokes the experience of his own grandmother, musing whether it was wise for her to receive a hip replacement after a terminal cancer diagnosis. In an April interview with the New York Times, he wondered whether this represented a "sustainable model" for society. He seems to believe these medical issues are all justifiably political questions that government or some panel of philosopher kings can and should decide. No wonder so many seniors rebel at such judgments that they know they could do little to influence, much less change.
Hmm, he "seems to believe these medical issues are all justifiably political questions that government or some panel of philosopher kings can and should decide"? He did believe some independent (and presumably wise) panel should provide guidance on end-of-life care.
My apologies to all doctors and lawyers at JOM. I was just snarking at dean.
Posted by: bad | August 14, 2009 at 10:27 PM
Thanks, Sue - that's worse than I thought. Can't imagine why anyone would object to that.
Amy Sullivan is such a hack.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 14, 2009 at 10:27 PM
Good night Ladies and Gentlemen it is 03:27 AM here.Any posts after this under my name are by Septic.
Posted by: PeterUK | August 14, 2009 at 10:28 PM
Dean's been around before. He's a non-mendacious and non-hate-filled liberal.
Posted by: Willie Sutton | August 14, 2009 at 10:29 PM
JM Hanes just whacked him with a bat too. A thing of beauty really.
Maybe Obama could sell this whole healthcare fandango by calling it a public-private partnership, a venture as successful as say Fannie Mae, and will improve the delivery of healthcare like the post office has improved package delivery.
And one other bit for the protesters. It is a goofy idea for a protest sign that look like blue mail boxe, with the USPS graphic photoshoped into an Hyptno-Obama logo, and have red tape around it.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 14, 2009 at 10:33 PM
I wonder if the new Axelrod approach is to assign one prolific can't-take-no-for-an-answer salesman to each blog, rather than send the hordes out willy-nilly.
I've yet to figure out the efficacy of their endeavors other than to make complete pests out of themselves, at which they're quite proficient. Well done at responding to all the minutiae, although I still haven't figured out why they're arguing that rather than the much larger question of why we need such a leviathan of legislation to "fix" something that only the MSM and other assorted Oholes think is badly broken.
Posted by: Captain Hate | August 14, 2009 at 10:33 PM
Good night, PUK. I love that you give us that little heads up. :)
Posted by: Porchlight | August 14, 2009 at 10:34 PM
This things about "death panels" already exists.Is it not not being accepted by an insurance company because of pre-existing condition to be covered and get proper medical assistance "death panels"?.Is this what this people that talk about death panels want to continue?.Probably yes because these people are the ones that can pay for their medical problems with out of pocket money like the ex-Gov of Alaska and the Sen from Arizona and the Gov of Texas,etc...They want to continue the status quo because they have the upper hand and do not want to loose it.They can go to the better doctors because they can pay for it but poor people can't just because they have diabetes or obesity or any other situation that the current health plans indiscriminatly exclude.Double standard is what these people do not want to loose.
Posted by: Oscar in Miami Beach | August 14, 2009 at 10:34 PM
G'nite PUK; I usually know when the ebonic tapeworm is sockpuppeting you: The comments aren't funny nor intelligent.
Posted by: Captain Hate | August 14, 2009 at 10:36 PM
Dean was certainly among the more polite of our recent visitors from Obamaland, which I appreciated. He ain't no Septic.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 14, 2009 at 10:36 PM
http://www.punditreview.com/2009/08/join-us-supporting-the-jared-c-monti-scholarship-fund/>Medal of Honor recipient scholarship fund needs money.
If you are so inclined...
Posted by: Sue | August 14, 2009 at 10:37 PM
My last was barely in English:
a goofy idea for a protest sign that look like blue mail boxe-> a goofy idea for a protest sign that looks like a blue mail box...
I can imagine it better than I can write it. Anyway.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 14, 2009 at 10:38 PM
obesity or any other situation that the current health plans indiscriminatly exclude.
Yeah there are no rich fat people :rolleyes. You know there's a reason you're on the 10 oclock shift.
Posted by: Captain Hate | August 14, 2009 at 10:39 PM
OT LUN for Bloomberg on the crisis of Non-performing (Non-Accrual) loans...
They didn't study the TARP banks ...
Posted by: Stephanie | August 14, 2009 at 10:42 PM
Probably yes because these people are the ones that can pay for their medical problems with out of pocket money like the ex-Gov of Alaska and the Sen from Arizona and the Gov of Texas,etc...
Yeah, that would include the likes of me. I have lots of out of pocket money. It's certainly out of my pocket. ::grin::
Posted by: Sue | August 14, 2009 at 10:42 PM
The link isn't right Stephanie.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 14, 2009 at 10:46 PM
How will Dr's be forced to participate in obamacare?
As it is many don't accept Medicaid.
Many of the best specialists, like hand surgeons, don't accept insurance at all.
Cash.
Those are the cats I'm going to see. The best ones I can afford with my money.
I would hope I could refuse to see any Doc who participates in this disaster.
I think on the news they just said Murtha doesn't see a vote this year so maybe it's all over but the shouting.
Posted by: scott | August 14, 2009 at 10:46 PM
Yes, Hot Air has a link to CNN:
A bill to overhaul the nation's ailing health-care system may not pass until January or later, Democratic Rep. John Murtha of Pennsylvania said Friday.
Hmmmm... Is that the Old Guard breaking under the withering fire of the town hall meetings?
Murtha just squeeked by last round, and he's losing all of the big money that pulled him through. Sounds like he knows that if this gets rammed through he is toast in his disctrict.
Posted by: Ranger | August 14, 2009 at 10:52 PM
I dunno. Murtha's comment sounds like a fakeout attempt to me. We can't let up the pressure.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 14, 2009 at 11:00 PM
Anyone who can quote this with a straight face......
...... is just too young to understand the code.
I must say, I appreciate our guest's civil earnestness too. It's not easy to respond to an entire room full of critics by yourself. Perhaps that's how he could end up saying something like this:
The government will empower you to make the decisions you're currently making by yourself on your own, in order to keep government out of the decision making process it's not currently in. Or something.Posted by: JM Hanes | August 14, 2009 at 11:04 PM
No, never let up the presure. This sounds like a warning shot to Obama and Pelosi though. Or maybe a trial baloon to see how the lefty base reacts to a pause.
Posted by: Ranger | August 14, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Try again...
LUN
Posted by: Stephanie | August 14, 2009 at 11:06 PM
If there is any single pig in the House that could cock up the Dems attempts at healthcare, it would be Murtha. I'm skeptical he would cave this early in the process, seeing as how Obama could have the FBI haul him away over his earmarking.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 14, 2009 at 11:14 PM
If you're here tomorrow, PUK, thanks for your pointer to the gnashing of teeth over at HuffPo. Actually, it wasn't so much the gnashing I enjoyed, as it was the plaintive exit question:
Can we say told ya? Why, yes we can.Posted by: JM Hanes | August 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Palin has been doing a knock out job of laying out the traps (rationally!) and single handedly setting Obamacare back on its heels. I hereby officially retract my previous critique of her leadership. She has turned offensive media into a media offensive in the most politically astute fashion Republicans have seen in a long, long time.
Yeh! JM Hanes. Reading that makes me happy.
Posted by: PaulL | August 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Good point - pressure should probably "go to 11" right about now.
Strategery's not one of my strong points!
Posted by: scott | August 14, 2009 at 11:20 PM
Ranger:
"And the Stimulus Bill was going to save or create 2, no 3, no 4 million jobs..."
Even before that slope got slippery, Obama was saying it would "create" millions of jobs. I remember it like it was yesterday. Sitting there, watching YouTube in my bathrobe, time just seemed to stand still, when I heard Gibbs introduce create "or save." I knew the world would never be the same again.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 14, 2009 at 11:29 PM
Thanks for the link. Colonial was shut by the FDIC this evening. In an inauspcious sign, a few days ago, the FBI came in with warrants at their Orlando office and spent about 6 hours looking over documents.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 14, 2009 at 11:34 PM
PaulL:
So much for all those pundits who declared her resignation a career killer, eh? Probably the same crowd who seem embarrassed by the passions on display at Tea Parties.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 14, 2009 at 11:34 PM
--Let me also address I think a misperception that's been out there that somehow there is any discussion on Capitol Hill about reducing Medicare benefits. Nobody is talking about reducing Medicare benefits. Medicare benefits are there because people contributed into a system. It works. We don't want to change it. What we do want is to eliminate some of the waste that is being paid for out of the Medicare trust fund that could be used more effectively to cover more people and to strengthen the system.--
Dean is very polite (Hi Dean!) and quite dishonest.
Obama has proposed cutting about $500 billion out of medicare over ten years. Included in this is what is referred to as the subsidy to the insurance companies, otherwise known as Medicare Advantage. This program subsidizes medicare premiums and provides coverage for dental, vision and physical rehab. I think it also has some benfits for extended care. The large majority of the people who have MA have an income under $20,000. Without MA these folks will lose coverage and be forced to pay the standard medicare premium of $1500-3000 per year. They're losing benefits and going to pay more for it.
Now as a libertarian I think the whole medicare thing is unconstitutional and leads to bad choices and is unsustainable, but that doesn't give polite and friendly Dean license to lie about what these people have planned.
And anybody that can say with a straight face that this time for sure the government is really, really going to get rid of fraud, waste and abuse, especially an administration so profoundly allergic to the mere existance of any IG who isn't a lap dog is simply talking through his hat.
Posted by: Ignatz | August 14, 2009 at 11:37 PM
Off topic a bit, but Obama has as a chief scientific adviser one John Holdren, whose pronouncements about the need to cull the herd make Emanuel's brother sound like a Franciscan.
Tell it!
Posted by: PaulL | August 14, 2009 at 11:44 PM
Posted by: caro | August 14, 2009 at 11:49 PM
Obama has misreresented Isakson's role and views--from his website-
WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Johnny Isakson, R-Ga., today denounced comments made by President Obama and his spokesman regarding Isakson’s alleged connection to language contained in the House health care bill on “end-of-life counseling.”
Isakson vehemently opposes the House and Senate health care bills and he played no role in drafting language added to the House bill by House Democrats calling for the government to incentivize doctors by offering them money to conduct “end-of-life counseling” with Medicare patients every five years. Isakson also strongly opposed the House bill language calling for doctors to follow a government-mandated list of topics to discuss with patients during the counseling sessions.
By contrast, Isakson took a very different approach in July during the Senate HELP Committee hearings on the Senate version of the health care bill. Isakson’s amendment to the Senate bill says that anyone who participates in the long-term care benefit provided in the bill – if they so choose – may use that benefit to obtain assistance in formulating their own living will and durable power of attorney.
Isakson’s amendment, which was accepted unanimously by all Republicans and Democrats on the Senate HELP Committee, empowers the individual to make their own choices on these critical issues, rather than the government incentivizing doctors to conduct counseling on government-mandated topics. Isakson ultimately voted against the Senate health care bill.
“This is what happens when the President and members of Congress don’t read the bills. The White House and others are merely attempting to deflect attention from the intense negativity caused by their unpopular policies. I never consulted with the White House in this process and had no role whatsoever in the House Democrats’ bill. I categorically oppose the House bill and find it incredulous that the White House and others would use my amendment as a scapegoat for their misguided policies,” Isakson said. “My Senate amendment simply puts health care choices back in the hands of the individual and allows them to consider if they so choose a living will or durable power of attorney. The House provision is merely another ill-advised attempt at more government mandates, more government intrusion, and more government involvement in what should be an individual choice.”
###
"
Posted by: clarice | August 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM
Btw, did anybody catch Il Douche's line at the town hall today that half of the "plan" he's peddling's annual cost of $80 billion (far less than the CBO said) could be paid for by reducing the tax deduction for charitable giving for people making over $250K? Columbia and Harvard must be so proud.
Posted by: Captain Hate | August 14, 2009 at 11:56 PM
Obama said he was gonna fix education in Chicago.
How'd that work out?
Is Deans last name Axlerod?
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 12:00 AM
I missed it. I thought that idea died a quick death earlier in the year. I suppose with Obama, bad ideas don't really exist, they just need more lipstick.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 15, 2009 at 12:05 AM
Would somebody tell me something?
Why is how much the U.S. spends privately on healthcare such a big deal?
It's peoples money. People can, generally, spend money however they chose. If the U.S. spends that much on Healthcare, doesn't that indicate that we WANT to? Rather than indicate some nefarious imbalance in the force or something?
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 12:15 AM
... more lipstick ... LOL!
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 15, 2009 at 12:15 AM
Found an interesting blog post on health care costs .
LUN so you can see the graphs.
This month, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) released a comprehensive health data report, comparing health care statistics across OECD countries. Their website and study can be found here and an excel file with a sampling of their data is also available. With the recent flurry around the Obama administration’s health care proposals, it feels like a good time to look at some of the more interesting data sets to me:
* Healthcare Spending as a % of GDP
* Doctor Consultations, Number per Capita
* Hospital Beds per 1000 Population
Healthcare spending as a % of GDP: 2006
image
Source: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
Doctor Consultations, Number per Capita: 2006
image
Source: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
Hospital Beds per 1000 Population: 2006
image
Source: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
These three graphs highlight some key relationships amongst the sample countries:
* The US has the highest health care spend as a % of GDP at 16%, but is on the lower end of doctor consultations and number of hospital beds per capita. This suggests the higher spending in the US isn’t necessarily related to volume of doctor visits and stays in hospital visits; but rather the cost per visit is likely higher than other countries.
* Interestingly, Japan has the highest number of doctor visits and hospital beds per capita, but at 8% of GDP, is half of the US level and lower than most of the European countries. They’ve created a system which supports more visits, but clearly less expensive individual visits.
* European countries are fairly consistent in their level of GDP % but vary in doctor visits and hospital beds.
In this week’s Newsweek magazine, I read an article that provides some additional insight into how the culture and priorities of the US, Japan, and UK explain some of these data relationships. Jacob Weisberg reviews the recently released book, The Healing of America, by TR Reid in his article We Are What We Treat, Fixing health care, American Style. A noteworthy passage:
“In his new book The Healing of America, the journalist T. R. Reid employs a clever device for surveying the world’s health systems: he takes an old shoulder injury to various countries. In the United States, a top orthopedist recommends joint-replacement surgery, costing tens of thousands of dollars. In France and Germany, doctors steer him instead toward a regime of physical therapy. In Britain, they tell him to go home. In India, he is treated, quite effectively, with herbs, massage, and meditation……. the lesson I took away from his book was somewhat different: health-care systems are not just policy choices, but expressions of national character and values. The alternatives he describes work not just because they’re well designed but because they reflect the expectations and traditions of their societies.”
Weisberg goes on to write,
“All advanced, wealthy countries have health systems that are more egalitarian and cost-effective than ours (the US). Each also has its quirks, which reinforce familiar stereotypes. Britain, land of the stiff upper lip, provides what to us seems shockingly minimalist treatment. It doesn’t even cover regular physicals for adults, which is what you get when you spend 8 percent GDP on health care (versus our 16 percent). The Japanese, on the other hand, love doctors and visit them, on average, 14.5 times per year, three times the U.S. rate. They do this in an orderly, ritualized way, usual-ly bringing a bottle of sake or cash in an envelope as a gratuity.”
An interesting way to think about national health care policies and spending levels. Figuring out the best type of reforms to the US health care policy will be difficult, but it may not be as simple as following a country that spends less than the US without considering both the national character of that country as well as tailoring the policies to the unique characteristics of the US.
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM
BTW, I really do wonder how much of our high health care costs are already caused BY the govt.
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 12:22 AM
Is Deans last name Axlerod?
Po, as others have said he was remarkably well-behaved for a troll, perhaps the only Mormons for Bammers member. Still he kind of creeped me out a bit with the way with the way he was saying "Hi" to everybody and those weird little wink/smiles he appended far too many comments with.
Night all.
Posted by: Captain Hate | August 15, 2009 at 12:28 AM
The president says his intent was not to target all big companies. He said some, like Aetna, are working with the administration on overhaul. But he said others are spending money to oppose his efforts to remake the system.
Translation: Chicago Politics.
Just like the 95%+ of car dealerships that were closed down that were owned by non-contributors to the Obama campaign or the DNC, the “only” insurance companies targeted by the White House are those who are “spending money to oppose” Obama.
Anyone expect them to design health care any other way?
They already have a study from some school that said that conservatism was a mental disorder... I forget which one.
LUN
Posted by: Stephanie | August 15, 2009 at 12:30 AM
Well Capn, reading through the thread, he simply repeated the same thing over and over and over, without acknowledging any arguments. Typical troll behavior. I especially liked the link to the plans while saying there was nothing there that wouldn't prevent private plans. However, it's fairly obvious that it's not fair competition if you are regulating the guys you're competing with. That's shooting fish in a barrel.
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 12:32 AM
Dean, can you cite to any specific person who has described 1233 as constituting or containing a death panel? Who, specifically said this?
Posted by: JBS | August 15, 2009 at 12:34 AM
The Japanese...usually bring cash in an envelope as a gratuity.
Wonder what "cash in an envelope" * (fraction of total denoted by "usually") * 14.5 times/year/person * population of Japan works out to as a percent of GDP.
Posted by: bgates | August 15, 2009 at 12:34 AM
caro:
Potential signage is just bustin' out all over. If I hadn't gotten so bogged down in holding forth on the web today, I might have gotten that bullet point plan email I'm planning to send you under way! Sept. 12 suddenly doesn't seem so far off, does it?
Just saw some coverage of a Raleigh demonstration. The tea party folks, all very civil, expressed intelligent objections; the pro-reform contingent went with the street theatre theme. It occurs to me that maybe the local coverage people are seeing is much less skewed than the national coverage authored from distant perches. An under-the-radar phenom like that could be a big part of why the numbers are shifting toward the opposition.
Can't remember where Murtha was mentioned tonight, but wow. If that rat is abandoning ship, Pelosi must be taking on serious water.
John Murtha, Mr. Bipartisan in the flesh.Posted by: JM Hanes | August 15, 2009 at 12:39 AM
So it is written, so let it be done...
LUN
Posted by: Stephanie | August 15, 2009 at 12:50 AM
OT
suicide bomber blast outside US embassy Kabul
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/kabul-bomb-attack-us-embassy
Posted by: windansea | August 15, 2009 at 12:57 AM
If the bill doesn't have a public insurance plan to compete with private ones, do the insurance companies win? I asked. "The public option is something that the vast majority of Americans want. They know that the enemy is the insurance industry," Reid said. But he added that the public option "is not the only thing that's important." It's also important, he said, to make sure insurance companies can't deny policies to people who have pre-existing conditions or drop people if they develop a problem.
The House, with a large Democratic majority, is expected to pass a bill with a public option in it. If the Senate version doesn't have one, I asked, does the public option have a shot when Senate and House negotiators meet to smooth out their differences in a conference committee?
"I'm not going to -- I have to get a bill off the floor," Reid said with a low chuckle. "So I'm not going to be threatening or suggesting anything that might come in conference. Get the picture?" I did.
Why you shouldn't trust this bill, in Harry Reids own words.
Via Gateway Pundit.
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 01:09 AM
Windansea,
Your link is to a story that happened: November 26, 2008 at 10:26 pm. Do you have a bad link?
Posted by: Ann | August 15, 2009 at 01:13 AM
Stephanie:
Thanks, I needed that! Enjoyed every last paragraph, and hope Obama continues to denounce the media for devoting so much more airtime to the ruckus than those constructive meetings going on all over the country. Some industrious winger could make hay with this bit, I should think:
I heard that David Axelrod will send you a complete list of all the things the filthy rich are going to pay for, as soon as he gets your email address and your medical records.Posted by: JM Hanes | August 15, 2009 at 01:19 AM
JMH, I am standing by. Signage R Us.
What you have written today is great, by the way.
Posted by: caro | August 15, 2009 at 01:19 AM
This has all been fascinating regarding the specific language of the bill.
Could someone direct me to the specific language that empowers any branch of the Federal government to promulgate and enforce law establishing a national healthcare system, and using my tax dollar to do it?
The document you would be looking for that in is the Constitution.
Posted by: Soylent Red | August 15, 2009 at 01:23 AM
The document you would be looking (in vain) for that in is the Constitution.
FTFY
Posted by: Stephanie | August 15, 2009 at 01:34 AM
Well. Andrew Breitbart's "crazy theory" posted on facebook.
Heh. I only heh because I don't think the GOP itself is nearly this "smart". I think it more likely they've lucked into this position.
I just hope the GOP's not so "smart" that they try and bust in and get in Sarah's way.
But Obama ruined "hope" for me, so, I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: hit and run | August 15, 2009 at 01:34 AM
Thanks, caro. :-)
Soylent!
You clearly need to sign up for Obama's Chicago Seminar:
More Perfect Union: Your Constitutional Kitchen Sink.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 15, 2009 at 01:38 AM
AB's crazy theory could also be interpreted as firing from a duck blind....
Cheney, you magnificent bastard!
Posted by: Stephanie | August 15, 2009 at 01:38 AM
Soylent, that's Article 1, Section 8:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
You may argue that the specific enumeration of Congressional powers that follow this sentence is comprehensive, and that the entire logic of a limited federal government dissolves if Congress needs only justify any action by saying (as every government everywhere has always maintained) that its actions will provide for the general welfare, and that voluminous writings of the chief architect of the Constitution validates this view.
I would then respond that you are a racist, and/or opposed to the will of the people. For at least the last 75 years, that's been enough to win that argument.
Posted by: bgates | August 15, 2009 at 01:39 AM
Hope everybody's irony meters have been in for a tune up recently, because Robert Gibbs told reporters yesterday that:
Next week: Heads Explode at White House, Medical Examiner faults cognitive dissonance and leaded lettuce, but mostly cognitive dissonance.Posted by: JM Hanes | August 15, 2009 at 01:58 AM
Oops, bgates, I meant Ba'ab Ghibz, of course.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 15, 2009 at 02:02 AM
Breitbart should be smart enough to know, as Leah from New Hampshire is that the Republican party has nothing whatsoever to do with any of the town hall protests. Now we've got the world's most arrogant midget, Robert Reich, declaring these things are being "astroturfed."
So, no, it's not a strategy, because it isn't being effected by the Republican party. It's simply the virtuous consequence of good conservatives, libertarians and overtaxed moderates doing the right thing at the right time for the right reasons.
Posted by: Fresh Air | August 15, 2009 at 02:19 AM
JMH, quoting Gibbs:
The president intends to get and sign health care reform this year."
Wait.
I thought it was health insurance reform?
WTF?
Next Gibbs will tell us that Cap and Trade is trying to help stop
Climate ChangeGlobal Warming.And that Obama is conducting the
global war on terroroverseas contingency operations to address the threat fromman-made disastersterrorism.At this rate, some time next week, Gibbs will no doubt be telling us that the
Comparative Effectiveness CommissionDeath Panels are vital to healthinsurancecare reform!Posted by: hit and run | August 15, 2009 at 02:21 AM
Po---
If the U.S. spends that much on Healthcare, doesn't that indicate that we WANT to?
Medical costs have been moving up in lockstep with veterinary costs over the past 10 years. You are exactly correct.
I really don't get it either. That's why I have to assume the whole thing is just another ploy to dictate to people how to live their lives, and if possible rig the system so it keeps electing Mediacrats in perpetuity.
Posted by: Fresh Air | August 15, 2009 at 02:28 AM
TM just got a shout-out on Greg Gutfeld's Red Eye for this post calling out the NYTs for not reading their own paper!
Well, sure they're onto some Japanese transvestive youtube something now, but still.
Greg Gutfeld uttered the words, "Tom Maguire".
[VIMH: WTF are you doing up late enough to watch Red Eye?]
Hey, in central time zone, it's one hour less later!
[VIMH: OK, but you're still watching Red Eye]
It's my brother-in-law's tv/satellite/dvd/home stereo set up and I'm now old enough that I have no idea how to turn the blasted thing off.
Posted by: hit and run | August 15, 2009 at 03:07 AM
I see I caused some confusion with the section 1181 reference, for which I apologize. The section in the bill is 1401, which adds a new section 1181 to the social security act. For purposes of this conversation, the reference ought properly to be 1401. (And since my previous quote snipped down to the bare bones and left only the section 1181 header, here it is with the headers:
Of course, they aren't going to do anything with the information once they get it . . . they just want to know.Posted by: Cecil Turner | August 15, 2009 at 05:57 AM
I can imagine how to measure and analyze the "effectiveness" of services and procedures, but maybe someone can tell us how research is done on "appropriateness." That's not obvious to me.
Yes, Dean was a mannerly plant, and apparently one of the people who wrote and understood the House bill, but he was also quite disingenuous, never straying from his straw man argument equating 1233 with "death panels."
Posted by: Extraneus | August 15, 2009 at 06:38 AM
For those like our friend Dean, who claim streamlining the system will save substantial sums, maybe we ought first to experiment with the system already in place, rather than losing money on every transaction and trying to make it up on volume.
More accurate would be to say it cost a bit over a trillion, and they'd plan to save a couple hundred billion. (And add a bunch of taxes.) Here's thePosted by: Cecil Turner | August 15, 2009 at 06:47 AM
Hey, Jim Treacher. If you're still here, cool t-shirts.

Posted by: Extraneus | August 15, 2009 at 06:52 AM
So much for all those pundits who declared her resignation a career killer, eh?
I love love love the Palin part of this story. It's amazing that the stupidest politician on the face of the earth has managed to single-handedly take the rest of them down.
"She's a quitter, she needs to learn more, she can't handle the heat"
Yeah right. Kiss my ...
Posted by: Jane | August 15, 2009 at 07:22 AM
It is said Reinhardt Heydrich was an intelligent and cultured man,no doubt mannerly.
I would rather the devil had horns.
Posted by: PeterUK | August 15, 2009 at 07:48 AM
Yes, and it all started with this one paragraph:
It was Obama who tried to misdirect with the following sleight of hand:He deserves the consequences.
Posted by: Extraneus | August 15, 2009 at 07:54 AM
Two things fuelled this,both from Obama.
That health care drove the deficit,and health care could be expanded without increased cost.
This was so economically illiterate as to arouse the suspicions of even the most politically dormant.
Posted by: PeterUK | August 15, 2009 at 08:48 AM
Well, I never could understand how health care costs could drive the deficit. I mean, really, how do private expenditures affect the Federal deficit?
Inquiring minds and all that.
Are we now supposed to manage our affairs to make sure that the benevolent govt. gets the largest share possible of the pie?
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 08:56 AM
Good news!
Obama Willing To Be One-Term President Over Health Care
Posted by: Extraneus | August 15, 2009 at 09:07 AM
Good morning.
Is anybody else noticing that while all eyes are on the great big grass fire spreading across our nation (the Health (Death) Care debate, there is a smaller fire burning?
The lefties are always busy, busy. They have an apparently successful advertiser boycott campaign against Glenn Beck that is gaining steam. Accusing him of "hate speech" because he asked if Obama was a racist. We should all be very nervous about this, since we know they will not stop at Beck. If successful - and it appears they are being quite organized and successful - they will go after others on our side.
I have already written to Sargento Cheese (one of the pulled ads.) I hope others of you will find the time to do the same to some of the advertisers who are being pressured.
Posted by: centralcal | August 15, 2009 at 09:07 AM
The NYTimes and others said that SCJohnson and GEICO both pulled their ads from Beck. I contacted both companies -- both have informed me that they have NOT pulled their ads and the reporting is false.
Sargento on the other hand confirmed to me they have pulled ads; I informed them I have put them on my items not to purchase list.
Posted by: Tina | August 15, 2009 at 09:12 AM
Pofarmer.
I always mistrust those who insist that "People have something for their own good"
Posted by: PeterUK | August 15, 2009 at 09:16 AM
Obama Willing To Be One-Term President Over Health Care
If he keeps on, it's not gonna matter if he's willing to be a one-term Presidebt or not.
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 09:17 AM
Just what in the hell is going on here?
CLERMONT - Clermont police have interviewed one suspect who is admitting to putting up the dozens of posters pasted around the city depicting President Obama as the Joker character from the Batman film The Dark Knight, city officials confirmed.
Assistant City Manager Darren Gray said city officials have an individual "admitting to putting up 500" of the posters.
Clermont Police Capt. Eric Jensen said the male individual has admitted to putting up some signs, but investigators suspect others were involved and their investigation is continuing.
"We have talked to an individual," Jensen said. "He only admitted to some of it...We're still tracking down leads and talking to folks. We have not arrested anybody."
At this point officials are not sure how much damage was caused by the signs or the dollar amount associated with the clean-up.
Dozens of the posters were pasted around the city earlier this week. A pair of the posters were pasted to a Clermont Post Office collection box. They prompted the postmaster to contact the Postal Inspector's office, which is looking at potential federal crimes for defacing federal property.
City officials, meanwhile, are trying to determine what local crimes might be associated with the posting of the images on public and private properties. They've also been busy ripping down the sticky signs because they're a violation of city ordinance regarding illegal signs.
Jensen said he doesn't have a good count on the number of posters put up because, he said, "People are going out and tearing them down."
In a press release put out late today, Jensen said the suspect "also asked if he could video tape the encounter with the officers." Clermont Police declined that request.
"Currently we are still conducting interviews of victims, witnesses, and other suspects who were placing the Obama Joker Poster throughout our city," Jensen said in the statement. "We believe that the postings are the result of multiple suspects. We are hopeful that we can develop enough information to present charges of vandalism to the State Attorney's Office for review."
He did not have a specific reason why the individual who admitted to putting up the posters spent so much time sticking them to surfaces around the city, but Jensen suspects it may have something to do with a contest linked to the image of the President in white face and smeared lipstick, like the Joker.
Check back for more details.
What are they gonna charge him with?
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 09:25 AM
Tina,
What needs to be ascertained is,whether lefties actually buy Sargento products.
Here,we had a vociferous campaign to ban smoking in public houses. The left rallying cry was,"We would go in pubs,but for all the smoke" . They lied through their teeth. When the ban was implemented the hordes of "My body is a temple" brigade failed to materialise.Now six pubs a day are shutting down for good.
There is always a lie at the centre of leftism. The trick is to expose it.
Posted by: PeterUK | August 15, 2009 at 09:25 AM
The Joker Speaks. Too late the Joker lives.Pass it on.
Posted by: PeterUK | August 15, 2009 at 09:29 AM
Like one of the commenters said about the video PUK just linked:
Posted by: Extraneus | August 15, 2009 at 09:47 AM
Cool link, PUK.
Tina: My understanding is that advertisers (other than Sargento) MOVED their ads to other FNC shows.
Posted by: centralcal | August 15, 2009 at 09:51 AM
I twittered it PUK and gave you credit. Hope that is okay.
Posted by: Jane | August 15, 2009 at 09:59 AM
Piece today at AT about the "death panel" up and running as part of Porkulus. Dr. Death Emanuel is one of the panelists already busily at work.
Posted by: DebinNC | August 15, 2009 at 10:01 AM
This was so economically illiterate as to arouse the suspicions of even the most politically dormant.
We might as well make it a hat-trick of economic dumbfuckery with "There can't be an economic recovery without major health-care reform". Can you imagine the column miles that would be expended by political hack posing as an economist Krugman would write about that if Boooosh had said any of those things?
Posted by: Captain Hate | August 15, 2009 at 10:01 AM
I'm kind of a little amused of Andrew's theory, seeing as much of the GOP after Rush's "I want him to fail" statement went into a defensive crouch, and I'm being charitable. That was even true among those
'respectable' bloggers, Patterico and Ace, who said he was a 'good man' and 'deserved
a chance' I recall It was up to the Governors, to mount the campaign against the stimulus Sanford (don't remind me) Perry, Jindal, and Palin. The RNC and the NRSC do we even have to rehash their pitiful performance, Specter, Crist, the
NY congressional race. At one point, the House members were posting on the Huffington Post to get attention, that was kind of the nadir
Posted by: narciso | August 15, 2009 at 10:11 AM
Cecil, thanks for the update on Sec. 1401. One thing, though, I think maybe another passage is more telling than the one you bolded:
Appropriateness....an interesting choice of words, don't you think?
Posted by: Porchlight | August 15, 2009 at 10:30 AM
This point is mundane to the point of banality, but with majorities against ObamaCare in nearly every poll, how do the media get away with saying the protesters are only right-wing whackjobs? The numbers just don't support that. And the Congressjerks have to know it by now.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 15, 2009 at 10:32 AM
If a Government Option is implemented, it will either cost more than private insurance, cost the same, or cost less. If it costs the same or more, no problem. If it costs less, those of us whose health insurance is paid for by someone else may find ourselves switched over to it. Drop the price low enough, and private options "wither on the vine", leaving the government option the only option -- a single payer system.
And single-payer will wind up meaning single-decider.
Posted by: Karl Lembke | August 15, 2009 at 11:15 AM
SEC. 1181. (a) CENTER FOR COMPARATIVE EFFECTIVENESS RESEARCH ESTABLISHED.—
Of course, they aren't going to do anything with the information once they get it . . . they just want to know.
This reminds me of the not-so-sly comment made the Cyclops as he tried to find out where Odysseus had hidden all of his men. "Tell me, so I'll know."
Posted by: Barbara | August 15, 2009 at 11:23 AM
"If it costs the same or more, no problem"
ISTM the strategery is you can keep your current private coverage (for as long as it lasts) but the only changes allowed will be the public plan or a diminishing set of very restricted private plans ... which will rapidly become more and more expensive as the government increases the number of hoops they have to jump through while narrowing the window size.
Posted by: boris | August 15, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Rasmussen: 54% Say Passing No Healthcare Reform Better Than Passing Congressional Plan
Considering the Dem spin is that "only the naysaying status quo-loving GOP says doing nothing would be better than passing ObamaCare," I'd say this is pretty significant.
Posted by: Porchlight | August 15, 2009 at 11:36 AM
ISTM the strategery is you can keep your current private coverage (for as long as it lasts) but the only changes allowed will be the public plan or a diminishing set of very restricted private plans ... which will rapidly become more and more expensive as the government increases the number of hoops they have to jump through while narrowing the window size.
Exactly
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 12:03 PM
But, Porchlite, it's for our own good, after all.
Posted by: Pofarmer | August 15, 2009 at 12:04 PM
We already have the panels -- they were established by the porkulus bill. (Somebody else already quoted the statutory language.) What the health bill does is to convert the already-enacted panels into death panels. By destroying private contracting in health insurance, the panels will have the power to put people to death, whereas without the health bill's destruction of private contracts, people still have the ability to privately contract something other than the policies that the death panels implement.
Posted by: cathyf | August 15, 2009 at 12:54 PM
Extraneus-
I found it odd that Obama had his astroturfers working the night before his NH plastic turkey event quoting the GA Senator and conflating Sec. 1233 and "death panels". I suppose the NH event didn't go off quite as planned (that is what they deserve by having an 11 year old toss out the softball) and the former governor had a response ready the same day. For a team that is supposed to be "the smartest guys in the room", they sure seemed to have gotten beat by the commentary of a private citizen using a facebook page.
Posted by: RichatUF | August 15, 2009 at 12:56 PM
RichatUF.
The reason the Obamanoids got caught out is simple,these people have never done anything in the open before. They operate in smoke filled rooms,making secret deals. The light of day has the same affect on them as it does vampires.
Posted by: PeterUK | August 15, 2009 at 02:25 PM
I think that's exactly right PUK. They're still trying to keep that door tightly shut too. They've been slow to realize that that they're not in Chicago anymore, and that folks are figuring out that the guy behind the curtain is no wizard.
Posted by: JM Hanes | August 15, 2009 at 04:03 PM
One thing that hasn't been addressed here is that when it came time to fix her hip, Obama and his grandmother could have chosen not to do it. Were he so convinced that it shouldn't be done, why did not this persuasive man talk her out of it.
This is actually another of his gaffes along the lines of tonsillectomies and amputations. To fix a hip and remobilize the patient is generally considered safer, cheaper and better than simply leaving them at bedrest for the hip to heal. Weeks of bedrest is extremely debilitating.
So not only is Obama stupid, or ignorant, or disingenuous, he's also irresponsible. He's not fit to be anyone's grandson, let alone anyone's President.
Posted by: Where were you when I needed you? | August 15, 2009 at 05:12 PM