The WaPo Takes Cheney's Side On Enhanced Interrogation

The WaPo sidles up to Dick Cheney with a long piece detailing the cooperation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed:

In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

Can we credit enhanced interrogation?  Maybe, probably:

The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

Over a few weeks, he was subjected to an escalating series of coercive methods, culminating in 7 1/2 days of sleep deprivation, while diapered and shackled, and 183 instances of waterboarding. After the month-long torment, he was never waterboarded again.

"What do you think changed KSM's mind?" one former senior intelligence official said this week after being asked about the effect of waterboarding. "Of course it began with that."

Let's just go back in time to the summer of 2008 when Scott Shane of the NY Times covered a lot of this ground.  My point - most prisoners took advantage of the opportunity to yield to conventional techniques:

With Abu Zubaydah’s case, the pattern was set. With a new prisoner, the interrogators, like Mr. Martinez [who eventually handled Khalid Sheikh Mohammed], would open the questioning. In about two-thirds of cases, C.I.A. officials have said, no coercion was used.

If officers believed the prisoner was holding out, paramilitary officers who had undergone a crash course in the new techniques, but who generally knew little about Al Qaeda, would move in to manhandle the prisoner. Aware that they were on tenuous legal ground, agency officials at headquarters insisted on approving each new step — a night without sleep, a session of waterboarding, even a “belly slap” — in an exchange of encrypted messages. A doctor or medic was always on hand.

The tough treatment would halt as soon as the prisoner expressed a desire to talk. Then the interrogator would be brought in.

So the officers in the field were making case-by-case judgments about whether conventional interrogation techniques were likely to be effective, and leaned away from escalating to enhanced interrogation.

And just to remember the location of the goalposts, let's cut to the Times from April 2009, which explains the state of play after Obama took a victory lap for disavowing the OLC enhanced interrogation guidelines and Cheney pushed back:

Last week’s release of long-secret Justice Department interrogation memorandums has given rise to starkly opposing narratives about what, if anything, was gained by the C.I.A.’s use of waterboarding, wall-slamming and other physical pressure to shock and intimidate Qaeda operatives.

Senior Bush administration officials, led by Vice President Dick Cheney and cheered by many Congressional Republicans, are fighting a rear-guard action in defense of their record. Only by using the harshest methods, they insist, did the intelligence agency get the information it needed to round up Qaeda killers and save thousands of American lives.

...By contrast, Mr. Obama and most of his top aides have argued that the use of those methods betrayed American values — and anyway, produced unreliable information. Those are a convenient pair of opinions, of course: the moral balancing would be far trickier if the C.I.A. methods were demonstrated to have been crucial in disrupting major plots.

It appears that Obama will have to try harder to make the case that his current approach will keep America safe.  As I recall, right now all interrogations must comply with the Army Field Manual; Obama has a group still studying the belly slap, annoying rock and roll, walling, sleep deprivation, and the waterboard.  I stand by my guess that when he thinks no one is looking Obama will re-instate everything except the waterboard.  Here we go:

The new policy calls for the creation of what the administration is calling the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, of HIG, which will consist of military, intelligence-community and law enforcement personnel. The CIA will be part of that group, which will be housed at the FBI, the administration officials said.

The HIG will limit its interrogation techniques to what is allowed by the Army Field Manual. The Bush administration made use of techniques, such as waterboarding, which stimulates drowning, that were not allowed by that manual.

The officials also said the administration will also undertake scientific study to improve interrogation techniques.

ASK A RHETORICAL QUESTION... 

From Glenn Greenwald at Salon:

 I defy anyone to identify a single way the article would be different if The Post had let Dick Cheney write it himself. 

A toughie!  These paragraphs would never have survived Cheney's red pen:

Mohammed, in statements to the International Committee of the Red Cross, said some of the information he provided was untrue.

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.

Critics say waterboarding and other harsh methods are unacceptable regardless of their results, and those with detailed knowledge of the CIA's program say the existing assessments offer no scientific basis to draw conclusions about effectiveness.

"Democratic societies don't use torture under any circumstances. It is illegal and immoral," said Tom Parker, policy director for counterterrorism and human rights at Amnesty International. "This is a fool's argument in any event. There is no way to prove or disprove the counterfactual."

And speaking of a fool's argument, I defy anyone to read a Greenwald rant without letting their mind wander to such burning issues as the difference between dudgeon and high dudgeon.  And dudgeon while high.

Comments

[Jim Ryan]

dudgeon while high.

There are a lot of TM posts which I defy anyone to read without the word "rapier" coming to mind.

[PeterUK]

Why use enhanced interrogation when all you have to do is threaten a lift home by a Democrat Senator.

[Extraneus]

Democrats, particularly Obama, deserve the opportunity of a serious terrorist attack. After all, Clintonistas lamented the fact that 9/11 didn't happen on ol' Bill's eagle-eyed "watch," and of course the 3AM call was all about this sort of thing, so surely they're prepared to leap into action if they get so lucky.

Hopefully it won't happen, but I'll be prepared to nominate a few people for the Commission if it does.

[Original MikeS]

The WaPo is merely reporting the facts which are basically that Barack Obama and the other Dems have been making sh?t up again. This time they've made up shi?t regarding terrorist interrogations. Dems are very versatile. They can't make shi?t up on nearly any issue.

[Walter]

HIG?

Why not HUG?

[Buford Gooch]

I'm afraid that, if another attack happens on American soil, the Obama administration might be forced to resort to that be all and end all of tortures, "The Comfy Chair".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8

[Gmax]

Any word from the sock puppet on what he thought of the WaPo piece? They usually travel together, I recall.

[PD]

Torture = reading Gleen

[matt]

I guess he just doesn't have anyone else to talk to now.....so if it was me, I'd give him the silent treatment. Mute guards...drive him around the bend.

The Dems can't even keep their lies straight any more. Cheney smacked Ogabe and Pelosi down, and no one in the media even noted the fact.I'm just waiting for the CIA to drop the other shoe on Holder, Sandy Berger and the rest of the scummies.

[TOPSECRETK9]

Emptywheel too has her panties in a bunch over this too.

[Fresh Air]

Hey, some senators pay good money for a belly slap.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I defy anyone to identify a single way the article would be different if The Post had let Dick Cheney write it himself.

Okay, here's one: if the WaPo is agreeing that thoroughly with Cheney, doesn't that suggest maybe Cheney was right?

[Senator Foghorn Leghorn]

I demand a commission to investigate Frank Rich and Maureen Dowd!!!

[PeterUK]

Actually the WAPO is taking Obama's side on EI. This is to cover his back as he continues the previous administration's policies.

[PeterUK]

In May 2000, a two-page police report pertaining to a fatal accident that had taken place near Midland, Texas, in 1963 was made public. It contained the information that 17-year-old Laura Welch (Bush) had run a stop sign, causing the death of the sole occupant of the vehicle hers had struck. According to that report, the future First Lady had been driving her Chevrolet sedan on a clear night shortly after 8 p.m. on 6 November 1963 when she entered an intersection without heeding the stop sign and there collided with the Corvair sedan driven by 17-year-old Michael Douglas. Also in the car with Laura Welch was a passenger, 17-year-old Judy Dykes.

How fast Miss Welch might have been driving is open to question. That part of the police report is illegible, although two biographies of the First Lady refer to her as having been going 50 mph at the time of the collision. The speed limit on that portion of road was 55 mph. According to the police report neither driver had been drinking, but no tests were performed. No charges were filed as a result of the accident.
News accounts from 1963 reported the young man as having been thrown from his car and dying of a broken neck; he was pronounced dead on arrival at Midland Memorial Hospital. According to various biographies of Mrs. Bush, the boy's father had been traveling in a car immediately behind his son's and witnessed the whole thing.
The two teen girls were taken to the same hospital and treated for minor injuries that amounted to bumps and bruises.

Michael Douglas, the young man who was killed, had been a member of Laura Welch's crowd at high school and her friend. He had been a star athlete, excelling in track and football, and was looked up to by his peers not just for his athlete prowess, but for his personality and intelligence too. By all reports, he was likeable, outgoing, and funny. He was nominated as the school's most popular boy while a junior, an honor that almost always went to a senior.

There has always been speculation about the nature of his relationship with Laura Welch. One rumor asserts the two had never dated, but that Laura had been romantically interested in him. Another claims he had been Laura's boyfriend when he died, and another that he had once been her boyfriend but the couple had subsequently broken up. (The latter theory is advanced in the 2002 biography of the Bushes, George and Laura: Portrait of an American Marriage, which states Laura Welch and Michael Douglas had dated throughout early and mid-1963, but by the fall of that year Michael was going out with Regan Gammon, one of Miss Welch's closest friends.)

[PeterUK]

This 08:08PM post is by Semantic Leo, Anus of this parish. Breaking on the wheel will now commence.

[PeterUK]

I do love me some parish anus; the younger the better.

[PeterUK]

Septic,you are a pervert. You should be on the National Sexual Offenders Register.

[Terry Gain]

Another very helpful piece TM. Thank you. It's distressing to hear luminaries such as Obama and Kirsten Powell exclaim - without being challenged: "well we don't know that the same information couldn't have been obtained without resorting to EIT" particularly given the referenced Shane piece - in the summer of 2008 yet - which explains that EIT was only used after normal interrogation techniques failed.

Common sense of course would tell us that that is the way an interrogation would normally proceed.

[Teddy]

"In May 2000, a two-page police report pertaining to a fatal accident..."

Cuttin' and pastin' from the funny section sure beats thinking and writing.

Oh my, this country is full of fools.

[bishop]

It's too obvious Peter, what Leo is chattering on about, what does Laura Welch
who wouldn't meet W till much later, have to do with the price of corned beef brisket.
Whatever did happen with the tiscali link, I wonder though.

I wondered about the mechanics of the IG report. It is filled with academic folderall
which is of little interest to anyone. Even as a bill of indictment, it is poorly drawn, so what is the point of this effort
anyways

[PeterUK]

Of course the nunnery specimens are quite superb. I've spent many a pleasurable Sunday afternoon releasing my gratitude in their honeyed embrace.

[Sue The Skinny Bastard]

Someone at Tapper's place tried to equate the two, a 17 year old HS girl running a stop sign, with a 37 year old married senator, drunk, partying, driving his car off a bridge, leaving the young woman in his car while he figured out how to cover it up. Yep, the 2 are definitely similar.

[PeterUK]

Teddy,
This one is all the fool you will need.

[Rick Ballard]

The loss of the largest (or possibly just the fattest) lying, cheating, coward in the history of the progressive "movement" (think obstructed bowel) seems to have energized the troll vermin.

Oh well, tomorrow is another day - and sure to be a brighter one, John Dunne's widely and unthinkingly accepted blather notwithstanding.

[Semanticleo]

I'm not myself today, wingerz, since they planted my hero Teddy, who's now as real as my son. The parallels are amazing: He was the Lion of the Senate just as I'm the Lion of Semantics. His children should've been imaginary in view of what they turned out to be. He treated women like garbage just as I do. The lunatics on the left looked up to him just like my imaginary friends do to me.

I am feeling very lonely and when I do that I lash out at PUKe to try and bring him down to my level. It's nothing personal, just that by being further away he's less likely to get my personal information from TM and punch my lights out. Which I obviously deserve.

[PeterUK]

Now now,Septic! Don't let your hatred drag you further over the edge of insanity.When your imaginary son returns from Iraquistan,ravaged by the trauma of war,one of you will have to remain sane enough to feed the other.

[bishop]

Going OT, the LUN to political conspiracy novels in the Journal, references the Matarese Circle, by Robert Ludlum, which suggests a mob like takeover of the world's
leading figures, including a figurehead by
an impostor to a Boston Brahmin clan, tied
to a mysterious Corsican financial wiz. It
achieved a certain independent notoriety, because MichaeL Milken, was ironically inspired by it.

[PeterUK]

Of course if Mary Jo were still alive I'd be happy to cover her name with slanders and unending distortions of her character.

But the Lord saw fit to deliver her corpse into the hands of the Republican party, and we have not been unappreciative of its delivery nor negligent in its application in forwarding the interests of our associates.

The ways of the Lord may in fact be both subtle and malicious; we are content to take our use of them in either regard.

[PeterUK]

bishop,
I have often wondered how a bootlegger could avoid being a gangster in a sea of gangsters.

[PeterUK]

Septic, petal,don't get carried away,I'm not a Republican.
It is only sad that the socialists Democrats were waterboarding in 1969.Ted Kennedy was ahead of the field there.

[Ann]

Dick Cheney is an American statesman and a patriot.

This "We Weed Up" guy can't hold an umbrella for his wife.

[bishop]

He probably couldn't, he started out his career dispossessing South Boston, was reputedly an insider trader,teamed up with
Frank Costello, in the spirits distribution biz, naturally he was appointed to head the SEC, and then Ambassador to the U.K.England,
where he settled in with the biggest
gangsters he could find, the Nazis.

It's ironic in light of all the emphasis but on W's grandfather's investment in German, industry vis a vis the Thyssens, as if that was dispositive of anything. I remember that was the particular bug of John Loftus, a former OSI atty, who had settled in on a nearly demonic vision of US foreign policy, in the 80s and early 90s.

[Ann]

Oh, and the next time they bring up Sarah Palin and the political use of her children like Trig can we all replay this for them:

Dems Push For Nationalizing Health Care at Teddy Kennedy's Funeral

[PeterUK]

Ann, I'm heartened to see you so willing to mischaracterize and distort even the most trivial of matters. Many people would blanch at the notion that this picture represents Obama holding the umbrella over himself when it clearly is shielding his wife as well.

But that's the genius of our party; we are neither deterred nor hindered by mere facts. To our purpose they will be bent, or banished; we have no preference in this regard.

[Semanticleo]

I hope you wingerz are impressed by how I'm using the PUKe voice in my head when I post as him. I've got a million of them as part of my semantic brilliance. They show up mostly when I stop taking my medication which makes me feel icky anyway.

[PeterUK]

bishop,
Mr Frank Costello. I wonder how many died,were beaten up,tortured forced into prostitution to put the Lion into the Senate?
Certainly EI would be small beer.

[PeterUK]

Semantic.
Yes pure genius. Except I'm not in the party.
The medication seems to make your prose read like a cheap airport novel.

[Ann]

I don't make allegations, I just show proof:

[bishop]

It's curious, Peter, that Scorsese, settled on that particular moniker, for his grand guignol Whitey Bulger manque in TheDeparted,
with his ties to the FBI and the local government

[Semanticleo]

Don't confuse the issue with facts PUKe. Those are for engineers and accountants and other wingerz occupations.

[PeterUK]

If Obama does not allow EI and there is a major attack by terrorists,could you impeach him?

[PeterUK]

Umbrellas... Bush style.

[Stephanie "the Ice Pick"]

Bush's is bigger.... ;)

[Stephanie "the Ice Pick"]

You would think that O would make sure Michelle had adequate protection from the Tin Man's Offensive Weapon of choice...

[PeterUK]

What is George W Bush's shoe size? 10.

What is Barack Obama's shoe size? 12 1/2.

[Ann]

If you notice in my last picture, IWon, is holding his arm for himself not Michelle, who has to run and try and catch up with him for the privilege of an umbrella that wouldn't even be there except for the help of an aide.

Statesman is to high a bar for a guy that can't even cut the title of gentleman.

(Stephanie, LOL)

[matt]

During WW II, Joseph Kennedy Sr. was so biased against the English that President Roosevelt had to rely on other sources for objective reporting on the war from the British side and ended up isolating him by August of 1940.

His support of the Fascists was well known as were his discussions with the German ambassador about the "dirty jews". Kennedy was a friend of both Father Coughlin, the racist/anti semitic Catholic priest, who had a broadcast audience of millions, and Charles Lindbergh, leader of the "America First" movement, which sought to keep America out of the war.

He was a friend of Neville Chamberlain, and repeatedly reported to Washington that the British were on the verge of collapse. Before he left, he said "democracy is finished in England". he basically killed any political career he might have had at that point.

Teddy was only following in his father's noble footsteps.

[Fresh Air]

What is Zero's hat size?

6 3/8.

[PeterUK]

And Bush can't even manage an umbrella let alone a country.

[PeterUK]

Prescott Bush - Hitler's Angel
The Nazi's banker in America

The U.S. government, under the Trading with the Enemy Act, ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City that were being conducted by Prescott Bush. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.'s stock shares, all of which were owned by Prescott Bush, Avrell Harriman, three Nazi executives, and two other associates of Bush (see sidebar for details).

http://www.bartcop.com/421102.htm

[PeterUK]

Bush can fly an aircraft.Obama can fly only with the aid of substance abuse,

[Fresh Air]

Septic--

It would be nice if you could stick to a consistent sockpuppet. If you're going to jump around could you at least let us know which commenter you will pretend to be each day?

[Fresh Air]

Another note...

Welcome back, RIck! How was the wake?

[PeterUK]

LAST POST FOR TONIGHT. All else will be by the syphilitic lion,

[PeterUK]

Bush can fly an aircraft.Obama can fly only with the aid of substance abuse,

from Bush's ipod:

If you wanna hang out youve got to take her out; cocaine.
If you wanna get down, down on the ground; cocaine.
She dont lie, she dont lie, she dont lie; cocaine.

[bishop]

Averell Harriman, the future Ambassador to Russia and the UK, advisor to the Kennedy
state department, Gov. candidate, that unconnected fellow, along with Forrestal,
McCloy, et al.

[Stephanie "the Ice Pick"]

Bush was transmitting the truth about TANG to Mapes and Rather.... What's the frequency Kenneth????

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Okay, let's compare and contrast.

Laura Bush: caused a fatality by running a stop sign. Didn't leave the scene of the accident, may have dated the other driver. Eventually married a President. Currently living a quiet life in private. Still living.

Teddy Kennedy: caused a fatality by driving off the edge of a bridge, probably under the influence. Caused the death of his passenger, who he left to suffocate or drown in the cold. Left the scene of the accident, admitted to this the next day, but wasn't prosecuted for leaving the scene of an accident or for manslaughter. Eventually ran for President. Currently being lionized and used politically by his party. Still dead.

[PeterUK]

Bush was transmitting the truth

Bush wouldn't know 'the truth' if it crawled up his ass and sang the star spangled banner.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Did anyone mention to this clown that Bush is no longer President?

[PeterUK]

but wasn't prosecuted

He was prosecuted and pled guilty.

How about Laura Bush; any prosecution...?

[Captain Hate]

Did anyone mention to this clown that Bush is no longer President?

Since he evidently believes that he's fooling people here by sockpuppeting other people on whom he bizarrely fixates, the chances of something in the real world being processed effectively by his damaged brain is nil.

[Ann]

Sweet Dreams PUK,

I have a dream that the media will report just the facts and we all live in a nation where the content of our character will not only be judged by what we say but what we do in life.
-Ann

(Hey, Frau, if you meant it..that is what I would put on a poster for 9/12! )
Well, that and vote them all out and start the heck over.

P.S. It dawned on me this morning that Clarice probably flew down to Florida to escape the Kennedy Funeral mobs in D.C.

And Jane, I hope you feel better!

[PeterUK]

chaco, I think I hear the star spangled banner coming from your ass.

The 1969 Chappaquiddick incident resulted in the death of automobile passenger Mary Jo Kopechne; Kennedy pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy

[Melinda Romanoff]

FA-

The hat size is 1/512th.

The other end from the "head".

As in "pin". And the angels dancing on said "head", aren't, They're jumping up and down trying to bury it.

But you better ask Heisenberg.

[PeterUK]

But you better ask Heisenberg.

He's at an undetermined location.

[maryrose]

Bottom line: too much coverage for the following people: Ted Kennedy, Michael Jackson, Tim Russert. We don't need to be privy to every breathtaking moment. Give these people some privacy in their grief.
Best shot of the day was how uncomfortable Barack and Michelle looked in the Catholic church setting. I wonder if they remembered to genuflect when they entered the pew.I'm sure they didn"t receive communion.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Uh oh, somebody learned himself sumtin.

[Semanticleo]

Maybe I should stop posting as PeterUK, before someone decides to start publishing my real name, address, and place of employment.

[sbw]

To grow so old and remain so oblivious of what is important and why is such a waste of protoplasm.

Your assignment, cleo, is to be quiet forever and ponder why an accurate representation of reality to others matters.

[PD]

Ann, the second picture was better. Michelle appears to be under the bumbershoot in the first one.

And Bush can't even manage an umbrella let alone a country.

Ah. A comparison between Obama's lack of consideration versus Bush's response to an unexpected gust of wind. How apt.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Is that a threat?

[Melinda Romanoff]

(Take Two)

Might that be threatening, all knowing one?

[maryrose]

PD:
We can all relate to President Bush's experience with the umbrella. Obama's arrogance and lack of consideration-not so much.

[Ann]

PD, The first picture was pure bait. I think I caught the big fish tonight.

Ask any lady here at JOM and they will agree that Obama just thinks about Ibama.

And tomorrow when Cheney is on Fox at 9:30 am, Sunday... Don't Miss IT! We will be fighting over him for our gratitude for keeping this country and our children safe.

[Frau Plakat]

Ann - Your first comment is fairly long. I've copied it and the second. Keep me in mind if you are further inspired. In my *vast* experience, signs with few words are best for street corners with passing cars. Also, a different message on each side of the sign is a favorite of mine. The D.C. gig, however, is most likely on a grassy knoll, so yours could work. The lettering will be small.

[Ann]

Sorry Frau,

But before I answer I have to be the first JMOer to say:

Happy Birthday, Elliott!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bad s##t]

Happy Birthday, Elliot!! Many returns of the day.

[Ignatz]

--PD, The first picture was pure bait. I think I caught the big fish tonight.--

Heh. I thought that was pretty sharp, Ann.
Not that the ass cleo needs any help looking like an ass, but that was quite excellent assistance you gave it.

[Elliott]

Thank you, Ann and Bad!

[bishop]

Happy birthday, Elliot, all right I really have to know where the calendar is.

[Elliott]

Thanks, bishop! Put it all down to Jane's EI techniques.

[daddy]

Saw my first "Impeach Obama" bumper sticker today here in Anchorage. Thumbs up!

[MICHAEL SPENCER]

Do we want to waterboard laura bush to get the truth out of her?

[PeterUK]

Laura bush did none of the below.

""Kennedy returned on foot to Lawrence Cottage, where the party attended by Kopechne and other "Boiler Room Girls" had occurred. Kennedy denied seeing any house with a light on during his journey back to Lawrence Cottage.[7]
"Dike House" along Dike Road.

In addition to the working telephone at the Lawrence Cottage, according to one commentator, his route back to the cottage would have taken him past four houses from which he could have telephoned and summoned help; however, he did not do so.[8] The first of those houses, referred to as "Dike House", was only 150 yards away from the bridge, and was occupied by Sylvia Malm and her family at the time of the incident. Malm later stated that she had left a light on at the residence when she retired for that evening.[9]

According to Kennedy's testimony, Gargan and party co-host Paul Markham then returned to the pond with Kennedy to try to rescue Kopechne. Both of the other men also tried to dive into the water and rescue Kopechne multiple times.[1] When their efforts to rescue Kopechne failed, Kennedy testified, Gargan and Markham drove with Kennedy to the ferry landing, both insisting multiple times that the accident had to be reported to the authorities.[10] According to Markham's testimony Kennedy was sobbing and on the verge of breaking down.[11] Kennedy went on to testify that "[I] had full intention of reporting it. And I mentioned to Gargan and Markham something like, 'You take care of the other girls; I will take care of the accident!'—that is what I said and I dove into the water".[10] Kennedy had already told Gargan and Markham not to tell the other women anything about the incident "[b]ecause I felt strongly that if these girls were notified that an accident had taken place and Mary Jo had, in fact, drowned, that it would only be a matter of seconds before all of those girls, who were long and dear friends of Mary Jo's, would go to the scene of the accident and enter the water with, I felt, a good chance that some serious mishap might have occurred to any one of them".[12] Gargan and Markam would testify that they assumed that Kennedy was going to inform the authorities once he got back to Edgartown, and thus did not do so themselves.[2]

According to his own testimony, Kennedy swam across the 500-foot channel, back to Edgartown and returned to his hotel room, where he removed his clothes and collapsed on his bed.[12] Hearing noises, he later put on dry clothes and asked someone what the time was: it was something like 2:30 a.m., the senator recalled. He testified that, as the night went on, "I almost tossed and turned and walked around that room ... I had not given up hope all night long that, by some miracle, Mary Jo would have escaped from the car."[13]

Back at his hotel, Kennedy complained at 2:55 am to the hotel owner that he had been awoken by a noisy party.[2] By 7:30 am the next morning he was talking "casually" to the winner of the previous day's sailing race, with no indication that anything was amiss.[2] At 8 a.m., Gargan and Markham joined Kennedy at his hotel where they had a "heated conversation." According to Kennedy's testimony, the two men asked why he had not reported the accident. Kennedy responded by telling them "about my own thoughts and feelings as I swam across that channel ... that somehow when they arrived in the morning that they were going to say that Mary Jo was still alive".[13] The three men subsequently crossed back to Chappaquiddick Island on the ferry, where Kennedy made a series of phone calls from a payphone by the crossing to his friends for advice; he again did not report the accident to authorities".

ONLY a liberal could believe this shit!!

"HE DID NOT REPORT THE ACCIDENT TO THE AUTHORITIES"

That says it all.
Lion of the Senate or Rat of the Gutter?

[PeterUK]

Aa href="http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKulasewicz2.jpg">This is Dike House, the house Kennedy said he didn't see. First instinct of a human being is to find the nearest help.

[Extraneus]

Happy Birthday, Elliot!

[Jane]

Ann,

I couldn't stay up that late to be the first person to wish Elliott a HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Thanks for picking up the slack.

Hope it is the start of your best year ever Elliott. (Psst I have press passes to the Deutschebank classic all next week)

[PeterUK]

Happy Birthday Elliot.

[centralcal]

Happy Birthday Elliott with two t's!!!!

[Cecil Turner]

These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques. [emphasis added]

Not sure whether this proves EITs worked, as Gleen & Co. would surely claim a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but if not, then waterboarding and sleep deprivation must not be torture, because we all know that doesn't work.

More seriously, the lefties will not only jump through flaming hoops to avoid admitting EITs worked, they also will froth mouthily over someone daring to report the facts (even with the gratuitous "simulated drowning" silliness), and undoubtedly consider whether to organize another counterproductive boycott . . . just to show they can.

[hit and run]

Jane:
I couldn't stay up that late to be the first person to wish Elliott a HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Thanks for picking up the slack.

I was in the same boat. In fact, I tried, but mrs hit and run woke me up on the couch in the playroom with the laptop in my lap around 10pm, my having passed out trying to keep myself awake for the well-wishes.

And I decry the false suggestions that I had passed out from too many beers (though I understand why you might think so). No, I was tired from poker the night before until 2am and then 18 holes yesterday in the heat. But yesterday, I only drank two beers, one at 8:30am and one at 3pm.

And yes, I won my match 5&4 and our neighborhood won the Cup 8 points to 6.

But, this isn't about me, this is about Elliott...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ELLIOTT!!!

(some day, we will play 18 together. But you'll have to give me a stroke a hole)

[Cecil Turner]

Mohammed, in statements to the International Committee of the Red Cross, said some of the information he provided was untrue.

Yeah, he sounds all manly again, now. But the bottom line is that EITs knocked him out of his preferred resistance technique and forced him to play the interrogators' game. Moreover, it demonstrated his world view was in error:

The most infuriating thing about the Al Qaeda manual was that its core diagnosis was dead-on: the Americans would keep you in a cage eating halal MREs and giving you showers a couple of times a week. But when it came down to it, you could lie to them, refuse to talk, switch your story from one session to the next, and there wasn't anything they could do about it.

Ah, but there was. And from personal experience, I can attest the most frightening thing is the possiblitity of a rogue agent (i.e., the suspicion that the interrogator has gone off the reservation and is no longer playing from the book).

I would submit such uncertainty is a very valuable thing for our intelligence service if we ever do anything serious, like, say . . . try to fight a freakin' war . . . and too much scrutiny over silliness like second-hand smoke or fake executions of next-cell-over terrorists (as opposed to actual torture like this) is not warranted.

[Porchlight]

Happy Birthday Elliott! Multiple threads deserve multiple birthday wishes. :)

[Rob Crawford]

Democratic societies don't use torture under any circumstances.

And we didn't.

[Rob Crawford]

Semen-cleo -- stop the sock-puppeting. All it does is make clearer what a sad, pathetic piece of crap you are.

[Jim Ryan]

All it does is make clearer what a sad, pathetic piece of crap you are.

I think that's the point.

[MayBee]

Happy birthday, wonderful Elliott.

[Elliott]

Extraneus, Jane, PeterUK, Centralcal, Hit and Run, Porchlight, MayBee:

Thank you for the good wishes and for getting the day off to such a great start.