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August 12, 2009

Comments

ben

Harvey you are a little slow even for a troll. The point was that politically motivated panels are not qualified for life and death decisions. Let God decide who is more sinful later, and keep Obama out of that decision while people are still alive. I assure you I don't assign levels of sin based on any political party.

Porchlight

Axelrod: The typical elderly couple may have to save nearly $300,000 to pay for health costs not covered by Medicare alone.

Hey, let's deny them the opportunity to pay out of pocket at all, just like Canada does! And then we can deny them some more care and save even more money.

Problem solved!

Janet

and who picks these doctors, scientists, and ethicists. Dr. Kavorkian, scientist Hanson, and ehicist ???...maybe that guy who said a pig, is a dog, is a boy.

ben

"and who picks these doctors, scientists, and ethicists."

Don't worry, they will be picked completely at random just like the questioners were at Obama's townhall.

If the pool from which they are picked completely at random only contains Obamabots it will be just a coincidence.

Harvey

"The point was that politically motivated panels are not qualified for life and death decisions"

HMO panels are profit-oriented, but you prefer that to the politically motivated? That is a false choice.

Pofarmer

There were 885,000 doctors in the US in 2004.

That number doesn't mean anything. How many are practicing? How many are teaching? How many are in research? How many are in various fields?

drjohn

Silly.

They're not "death panels"

They're expiration dates.

Harvey

"How many are in various fields?"

I think you see the point. Didn't you just finish saying 'some sort of reform is necessary'?

What reforms would you implement?

Porchlight

HMO panels are profit-oriented, but you prefer that to the politically motivated? That is a false choice.

If I don't like what my HMO decides, I can go elsewhere. Where can I go if the only coverage available is the federal government?

But thanks for the tacit admission that there will be government panels making decisions about who lives and who dies under Obamacare.

narciso

Don't talk to the rabbit, it only encourages
their delusion. I think that was Peter
Singer, the one who sad Bush was 'mad' or something. Animals are sacrosanct, people are Soylent Green.

ben

" HMO panels are profit-oriented, but you prefer that to the politically motivated? That is a false choice."

Absolutely, HMO's are responsible to shareholders and are regulated. Who is overseeing politically motivated boards? The Obamamessiah? The party bosses?

Pofarmer

There were 885,000 doctors in the US in 2004.

Oh, and how does that number compare to 2001? 2009? How have the demographics changed in that time period?

Porchlight

What reforms would you implement?

Ah yes, we are fully into goalpost moving now.

Harvey

"regulated."

That's a joke, right?

I mean, are you serious?

Tragic waste.

Janet

Yeah narciso...thanks. It was Singer.

Harvey

"Ah yes, we are fully into goalpost moving now."

Starting with the phrase 'some sort of reform is necessary'?

Pofarmer

"some sort of reform"

isn't synonymous with

"Heh, let's tear down the whole system and see how this works out."

Porchlight

Starting with the phrase 'some sort of reform is necessary'?

Starting with the fact that you can't defend your guy's plan, so you move on to asking what those opposed to the plan would do.

Obama is the one trying to force this down our throats. It is up to him and his supporters to make the case. Which he (and you) are clearly failing to do.

Harvey

"If I don't like what my HMO decides, I can go elsewhere"

Yeah, and pay the out-of-network penalties.

A friend who has Kaiser was out of town and had an attack of shingles, No Kaiser facility was within reasonable distance, so he went to an OON hospital. He got the entire bill as his own expense to the tune of $800.

Yes you do have a choice. That's always the case when you are willing to accept the consequences.

Harvey

"so you move on to asking what those opposed to the plan would do."

I believe that's the same critique you issued when others opposed the Bush War of Choice, Iraq.

Porchlight

"If I don't like what my HMO decides, I can go elsewhere"

Yeah, and pay the out-of-network penalties.

Yes, but at least the care is available if I can pay. In Canada, if you are denied care, you can't get it even if you are willing to pay, which is why they come here.

Nothing good can come from a single politically-motivated entity making decisions about healthcare.

Pofarmer

"this" Being a Democratic Socialist wet dream.

Blue Ox

"He got the entire bill as his own expense to the tune of $800."

My transmission went out to the tune of $2400.

Oh, the humanity!

Porchlight

I believe that's the same critique you issued when others opposed the Bush War of Choice, Iraq.

You don't know jack about my opinions about that.

And I see you are once more changing the subject now that you have lost the argument.

Harvey

"if I can pay."

And, if you can't?

Captain Hate

You don't get to invent your own facts, fuckstick; I belong to Kaiser and was taken to a different hospital by the police when I was KO'd with a severe concussion. Kaiser paid for everything.

Try harder next time.

Pofarmer

He got the entire bill as his own expense to the tune of $800.

So?

He got treated. He paid the bill.

Horrors!!!!!!

Harvey

"You don't know jack about my opinions about that."

Bullshit

narciso

Who created the HMO's. They arose out of ERISA, which was Ted Kennedy's baby, that was the last major significance in health
care, who considered this consequence. Much
like who thought SUV's would rise out of the CAFE standards. Another Kennedy project,
NCLB also has proven to be a miserable failure, I'm afraid to say.

Harvey

"Horrors!!!!!!"

So you have no ideas for reform. You just know you're opposed to this variety.

Porchlight

"if I can pay."

And, if you can't?

Then I'm SOL.

But under your proposed system, I'm SOL whether I can pay or not.

If 100% of people are hurt by government decisions, is that better than if a fraction of people are hurt by HMO decisions?

Harvey

"Who created the HMO's"

The Founder of Kaiser, as well as Nixon, Haldeman and Ehrlichman. Look it up.

Harvey

"If 100% of people are hurt by government decisions, is that better than if a fraction of people are hurt by HMO decisions?"


Huh?

PeterUK

"LOL are you that dense? They aren't going to collect premiums from them anyway because they are going to die and old people don't have incomes. If they deny them care and they die they save money. Giving and 80 year old person a 25,000 dollar procedure means you are literally giving away 25 grand to an old person which you will never get back. If you don't realize that then you are really, really dumb."

Let's say we have an eighty year old,with grandchildren,apples of their granny's eye.
The family love granny. She could have ten twenty years of life.
On the other hand let's conjure up a snot nosed kid,let's call him Adam. He drinks,does drugs,smokes and drives too fast,he ODs and crashes his car on a freeway,killing four people . Adam survives but needs $25,000 of treatment,so does granny. Who do you treat?

Janet

"Bullshit"...that's it?...that's the comeback?

I come to JOM for discussion and wit. That comeback was just..well..not very good.

Original MikeS

What reforms would you implement?

I would get government out of health care. Rescind mandates on what insurance policies must cover. Leave that decision to consumers.

Rescind laws preventing interstate competition between insurance companies.

Allow tax deductions for insurance purchased by anyone not just employers.

Medical school scholarships to increase supply of med professionals.

Tax credits for purchase of medical devices like MRIs, CATs, etc.

jwest

It’s absolutely essential to have “death panels” to decide what is a reasonable amount of care to extend to people based on their age and other factors.

Is this a bit cold and heartless? Of course, but it’s necessary.

Let “God” decide who lives and dies? Well, God seems to be desperately trying to kill a great deal of these people with accidents and disease, but those damn doctors and their technology keep getting in the way. I would be more than happy to let God decide if everyone else would keep out of it.

Should those who can pay for extraordinary procedures be allowed to have the care others can’t afford? Naturally. How would you stop them? Wealth has its privileges, and being able to live better and longer than the poor is one of them.

The bottom line is that under a government run health system or private insurance, there needs to be set limits on the type and amount of procedures that will be paid for under the collective pool. Although government would like to cover every contingency, there is not enough money to tax that can pay for it all. Under private insurance, covering everything would make the premiums unaffordable to anyone. Placing limits by government decree would absolve the insurance companies of liability for denial of coverage above the set limit.

Who should decide who lives or dies?

Why me, of course.

Porchlight

Huh

If the government makes a decision that says that 100% of people with a certain condition over a certain age are denied treatment and have NO options, is that better than if an HMO denies the same treatment to those people but 35% can pay for it out of pocket?

Is it better for nobody to have that care than for only 35% to have it?

Why would the government deny care even to people who can pay for it, as Canada does?

Pofarmer

So you have no ideas for reform. You just know you're opposed to this variety.

No fuckstick(thanks Capt.) I've posted reform comments on various threads. I see no reason to revisit them now at your whim. The current topic is how bad the current proposal from TOTUS sucks. And sucks it does.

Jim Ryan

Harvey's friend chose to go out of state uninsured. He got sick to the tune of $800. So, who should pay the bill?

Blue Ox didn't change his transmission fluid and had a bill of $2400. Who should pay the bill?

The answer is obvious. Harvey's friend should pay his bill. Blue Ox should pay his bill.

jwest

Porchlight,

Perhaps I was imprecise in my phrasing.

The “death panel” would determine that a certain procedure for someone over a certain age is not cost effective, therefore the government under Medicare/Medicaid would not pay for it.

Anyone who can pay for the procedure themselves is welcome to go for it.

Money always overrules any government decision.

Jim Ryan

O can't get a lousy break.

Neo

Let’s call it for what it is … these consultations are meant to invoke a “Duty to Die

Jane

Mrs. Lurker and I are hoping to buy you dinner at Black Eyed Susan's between now and Sep 9.

OL,

I'm gonna try. Between the radio and the tea party gig coming up and work I need to try and sort out a couple of days to get away.

I'll keep you posted. Meanwhile harass those libbies for the rest of us. Are you seeing any buyers remorse?

ann

wasn't it convenient for Obama that his grandmother died before the election....imagine the family secrets she would be sharing with us if she was alive.

Porchlight

Anyone who can pay for the procedure themselves is welcome to go for it.

Okay, jwest, but that is not the case in Canada. If we end up with a single payer system how can we be assured it will be the case here?

Another point: if certain treatments are denied by gov't panels, as more and more people are covered under the public option it is likely that the market for those treatments will dry up and they will become unavailable. Then no one will be able to get that treatment no matter how much they can pay.

This will kill innovation, kill jobs and kill people.

Sue

Tort reform.

Barack Obama

To Grandmothers everywhere: Die Faster. My Administrattion needs the money to fully fund ACORN and SEIU.

Rob Crawford

"if I can pay."

And, if you can't?

You get help. Friends, family, charities.

All voluntary, no government force involved.

Neo

Rasmussen now has Toomey crushing Specter 48% to 36% (43% vs Sestak 35%).
They say it's all thanks to ObamaCare.
2010 can’t come fast enough.

jwest

Porchlight,

I agree that a Canadian system is a nightmare scenario.

My preference is individual health savings accounts coupled with a catastrophic insurance (with certain limits as discussed).

There will always be providers for any procedure someone could pay for. The market might contract, but free market competition will maintain services for those who can afford them.

Did she just say that?

OK, it's time for Michelle to come on and tell us we all need to get back to the Gym for some preventive health care.

No really, I am an American.

Obama, Emanuel, and Axelrod ought to be glad they are just facing outrage. When we start laughing our asses off over their gaffes and governance, they are really toast. And we are just about there, boys and girls.

Fresh Air

The vast majority of today's adolescents liberals have extended their teen years to age 40 65. (Emotional Retardation)

Fixed it for you.

Mike Myers

I've been trying to figure out just what "subsidy" the government is paying to the health insurers. I assume that what the Obama group wants to do is to eliminate the tax deductibility of payments made by employers for employee health insurance.

That may be a good idea--or may not:

A. It would tend to level the tax playing field between health insurance policies purchased by individuals and health insurance provided by employers;

B. It would effectively drive up the cost of health insurance to employers--no longer tax deductible, has to be paid for with after tax dollars.

C. When health insurance costs increase to employers they'll want to provide less of it to their employees; when there's pressure to provide more benefits/compensation to their employees it may make more sense to increase salaries (tax deductible expense) than health insurance coverage (non tax deductible).

D. If there's a public option that can be bought for an 8% tax penalty, it's going to look a lot more attractive to employers.

But I do think that Obama's talk of "subsidies" to health insurer's is unintelligible unless he's talking about tax deductibility of premiums.

Fresh Air

It's interesting that they are trying to make insurers the boogeymen. First, of all, the insurance market is a free one. If your insurer doesn't cover everything you want covered, you need to get some supplemental, talk to your employer or switch insurance companies.

Insurance does not equal care. It is a deposit account for premiums that are invested and pooled with others according to actuarial risks. Want more coverage? Put more in.

Another point...Medicare drives reimbursement. What they cover or don't cover has a massive impact on the rates and procedures private insurers allow. If bars are set too low, then cost-shifting occurs. Axeltoad wants a basket of free services to be covered. Yeah, well, who wouldn't? Does he ask his barber for a free toupee, too?

Porchlight

Sounds reasonable to me, jwest.

gmax

So its so unfair to call them "Death Panels" its really end of life counseling sessions.

My response?

The Nazis called them showers, too.

Sue

An email I saw, and didn't copy, so I'm paraphrasing...

Two ladies are discussing Obama's healthcare plan. One asks the other what she is going to do. She responds, everyone 70 and over, grab two guns, shoot two congresspeople. The state will provide 3 squares and a cot, free medical, dental and think of the fun we will have socializing if we all wind up in the same prison.

PeterUK

There is much rubbish spoken about Obama's End of life Consultations,Death Panels what have you. In fact the procedure will be very simple.

Pofarmer

Anyone who can pay for the procedure themselves is welcome to go for it.

Except that in Canada at least, physicians are barred from providing those procedures, even if folks have money, so, that already falls flat in practice.

glasater

And then let's extend the 'death panel' analogy further.......

So folks dying sooner--many would leave estates which the government could gather more tax revenue from the expiration of the death tax.

I know this is a gruesome idea but with these yahoos in charge one can only wonder.

Frau  Gesundheitsamt

"That Obama sure loved his grandmother. Didn't he also call her a racist?"

He labeled more than just his grandmother. Obama called her a typical white woman.

The lack of gratitude is stunning. As Dennis Prager said, "The more I think about it, the more I think that gratitude is the great unifying force for both happiness and goodness..."

PeterUK

SCAM has initiated a new Insurance for Seniors,"Nemesis". In the event that Seniors should become prematurely death enhanced,an operative from "Nemesis" will induce a matching condition in a politician or medical practitioner of your choice in accordance with your living will.

Our CEO "Big" Louie Patootie brings you this message.

"Nobody fucks wit Granny".

Pofarmer

The market might contract, but free market competition will maintain services for those who can afford them.

Not if it's made illegal, in the name of fairness, of course.

Extraneus

When we start laughing our asses off over their gaffes and governance, they are really toast.

Very true. And we know that Sarah Palin knows this, too, since she had some fun doing it right off the bat when she was announced, and very effectively, too. Right now she's showing off her policy-wonk chops, but she can give him a new version of "like a community organizer, only you have real responsibilities" at any time.

AR Martinez

Obama believes he is a god. He feels that he can create panels whose members will be fair and just. He deceives his followers with the imagery that our current situation is awful, he has the solution and only he is capable of seeing it through. He chooses his puppets to make it seem that he will be fair and just.

He is a fool. We, America, are not. You want to see his future death panels. Look: He chose a Health Secretary who is a woman (who professes she is Catholic) and advocates killing babies. He chose a Treasury Secretary that didn't even pay his taxes like you and I. Even when he created a bio-ethics panel to review the use of adult stem cells, he denied placing devout Catholics (and other Christians) and ignored their written recommendations.

Many of us are not fools. Some have been deceived. Finally, the majority is awakening and voicing to this simple man, that we will not allow him to kill anymore.

I heard a priest on EWTN say once about the consequences of killing (in relation to the Ten Commandement's "thou shall not kill"). He said the consequences of killing our babies results in our babies growing up and killing the parents (elderly, disabled, etc.) Here we are...a president who embraces the killing of our babies, how does anyone not expect him to readily embrace killing our elderly.

Pofarmer

He feels that he can create panels whose members will be fair and just.

I don't believe that's the motivation at all, unless you think that Lenin, Marx, and Pol Pot, were trying to be fair and just.

Mark Buehner

Actually they are "Next Life Expedition Boards", not "Death Panels".

I just can't believe all these angry nazi citizens that don't believe Obama can't just have a nice long talk with the elderly and convince them they are ruining America with all their clinging to life and save trillions of dollars. Why use government force when calm reason is certain to do the trick? "You see pops, your dialysis is expensive. That money could be going to noble causes like greasing unions and building more garages with congressmens names on them."

Mark Buehner

"They aren't going to collect premiums from them anyway because they are going to die and old people don't have incomes."

Old people are the wealthy income strata in fact. It's going to be a blast as the boomers retire to see the most massive transfer of wealth from the poorest age groups to the wealthiest. Now there's your progressive utopia the New Deal promised us.

Thomas Collins

See LUN for Palin's dismembering of Obama's argument that ObamaCare will not lead to death panels.

I suspect that Palin's enemies are going to regret their vile but successful campaign to hound Palin from office. Palin is going to have more influence on national policy now than when she was Governor of Alaska.

gmax

Dont forget we could also get a few more private jets for the Speaker and her committee chairmen to fly to Aruba. So quit clinging to life as hard as you cling to your guns and religion already!

jwest


If you want to be brutally logical about this, it could be left to the natural process.

Nature tries to send us the answer to our problems, but we just keep screwing it up.

One good strain of the flu could take out the “surplus population”, culling the herd and facilitating the transfer of assets and property that could spur the economy. The weak and infirm fall by the wayside while the strong continue on covered in Darwinian glory.

findthetiger129

It's really funny how we know Obama has clearly said this stuff point blank and yet he comes out and makes official statements that he doesn't believe it as though that will clear away the fact that he clearly does. It's even funnier that the news media backs him up. Hurray for mindless zombies!

glasater

A commenter at the Seattle-Times--August 13, 2009 at 8:53 AM--is found quoting our host TM.

S-T made their usual bland liberal editorial on healthcare and the comments are rolling in--most against Zero's healthcare proposals.

That's what got me started in the first place. The Seattle-Times usually promotes every liberal cause--gently--that comes down the pike.
Except they hate 'inheritance taxes'. Heh!

PeterUK

jwest,

Unfortunately for that scenario,it was young people who succombed in the 1918 influenza epidemic.
Imagine that,a world left only with people with experience.

Jane

Sue that is hysterical. Unfortunately you will be arrested for posting it before sundown.

Bruce

REFERENCES!!!

Sarah put footnotes to references in her Facebook article!!!!

What a kind of world is it when politicians use facts in their arguments?????

jwest

Peter,

It’s getting bad when you can’t count on a good viral infection to target the needed demographic.

That’s why, if made King, I will rely on the mallet for crowd thinning.

Pofarmer

It's even funnier that the news media backs him up.

Not haha funny. Well, not weird funny either. O.K. I don't find it humorous in the least.

PeterUK

jwest.
Isn't it just?

A thought though.Some seniors are tough old buggers.Why not wear Semtex underwear when we go to the "Death Panel",get the thumbs down so do they.

fdcol63

It's patriotic to die early.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Perhaps it is true that most people use health care at a much higher rate in their last couple of years of life. But, I would venture to say that the majority of those are like my Mother.

She was first covered by health insurance from her job at about age 40 and except for a broken arm, never once used the system for other than flu shots and an occasional physical required by her job, until she was 90. So for fifty years she paid into the system before she drew out of it. Even then, she had Medicare but paid a whopping $265 mo. for supplemental.

She paid her dues. And when she died at 94, the majority of her expenses between 90 and 94 were not covered because she elected not to be warehoused in a nursing home and Medicare nor her supplemental would reimburse for any of her care unless she was hospitalized. Had she elected the hospitalization/nursing home route, they would have taken her home, all her assets, etc before dipping into Medicare.

Now it is true that if she had stayed in a nursing home they would have provided the roof over her head, food, her medications, therapy and 24 hour onsite monitoring (by min. wage workers), but by going home, she still had to pay for her housing, utilities, transportation, medications and supplemental medical supplies out of pocket.

The system is skewed toward those higher expenses for the last couple of years of life when a tax credit or some type of reimbursement would save millions.

jwest

“It's patriotic to die early.”

As naïve and compliant as most Obama liberals are, would it be possible to start a viral campaign to promote this message?

Forget the “patriotic” phrase – too militaristic. Put in something about “saving the planet”. Also, the word “die” has negative connotations in some quarters. Let’s change that into “returning to our Earth Mother” or something more inviting.

Come on….. if a slug like Al Gore can sell global warming to these fools, we should be able to make dying look like two weeks at Club Med.

Neo
All I’m [Obama] saying is let’s take the example of something like diabetes, one of — a disease that’s skyrocketing, partly because of obesity, partly because it’s not treated as effectively as it could be. Right now if we paid a family — if a family care physician works with his or her patient to help them lose weight, modify diet, monitors whether they’re taking their medications in a timely fashion, they might get reimbursed a pittance.

But if that same diabetic ends up getting their foot amputated, that’s $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 — immediately the surgeon is reimbursed. Well, why not make sure that we’re also reimbursing the care that prevents the amputation, right? That will save us money.

It's truly shameful that the guy who is trying to change our health care doesn't know that surgeons don't do primary care, so the choice he offers is meaningless.

It only shows his ignorance.

His example is equivalent to taking your car to an auto body shop to get an oil change .. they might, just might, do it for you, but they will charge you plenty because it's not what they really do.

PeterUK

"It's patriotic to die early."

In which case,at least one member of the death panel should show solidarity.

BTW.What will the average age of the death panel be? If they are young will this not be a political hot potato.

PeterUK

jwest.

"As naïve and compliant as most Obama liberals are, would it be possible to start a viral campaign to promote this message?"

I quite like "Return Your Carbon to Gaia". If they aren't hypocrites,there shouldn't be a single liberal around come Christmas.

Sue

Unfortunately you will be arrested for posting it before sundown.

In the spirit of DoT...come and get me coppers.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

A little levity, compliments of my daughter (sorry for the caps, but I cut and pasted and that's the way I got it:

A HUSBAND IS AT HOME WATCHING A
FOOTBALL GAME WHEN HIS WIFE INTERRUPTS,

HONEY,
COULD YOU FIX THE LIGHT IN THE HALLWAY?
IT'S BEEN FLICKERING FOR WEEKS NOW.

HE LOOKS AT HER AND SAYS ANGRILY,
FIX THE LIGHTS NOW?
DOES IT LOOK LIKE I HAVE
Newfoundland HYDRO WRITTEN ON MY FOREHEAD?
I DON'T THINK SO.

FINE,

THEN THE WIFE ASKS,
WELL THEN, COULD YOU FIX THE FRIDGE DOOR?
IT WON'T CLOSE RIGHT

TO WHICH HE REPLIED,
FIX THE FRIDGE DOOR?
DOES IT LOOK LIKE I HAVE WESTINGHOUSE
WRITTEN ON MY FOREHEAD?
I DON'T THINK SO

FINE, SHE SAYS
THEN YOU COULD AT LEAST FIX THE STEPS
TO THE FRONT DOOR?
THEY ARE ABOUT TO ! BREAK

I'M NOT A CARPENTER AND I DON'T
WANT TO FIX STEPS
HE SAYS, DOES IT LOOK LIKE I HAVE MIKE HOLMES WRITTEN ON MY FOREHEAD?
I DON'T THINK SO
I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF YOU.
I'M GOING TO THE PUB!!!!

SO HE GOES TO THE PUB AND DRINKS FOR A
COUPLE OF HOURS...............

HE STARTS TO FEEL GUILTY ABOUT HOW
HE TREATED HIS WIFE, AND DECIDES
TO GO HOME

AS HE WALKS INTO THE HOUSE HE NOTICES
THAT THE STEPS ARE ALREADY FIXED.

AS HE ENTERS THE HOUSE , HE SEES THE
HALL LIGHT IS WORKING

AS HE GOES TO GET A BEER, HE NOTICES
THE FRIDGE DOOR IS FIXED.

HONEY, HE ASKS, HOW'D ALL THIS GET FIXED?
SHE SAID, WELL, WHEN YOU LEFT I SAT
OUTSIDE AND CRIED.

JUST THEN A NICE YOUNG MAN ASKED ME
WHAT WAS WRONG, AND I TOLD HIM.

HE OFFERED TO DO ALL THE REPAIRS, AND
ALL I HAD TO DO WAS EITHER
GO TO BED WITH HIM OR BAKE A CAKE.

HE SAID,
SO WHAT KIND OF CAKE DID YOU ! BAKE?

SHE REPLIED,
HELLOOOOO..
DO YOU SEE SARA LEE WRITTEN
ON MY FOREHEAD?
I DON'T THINK SO!

windansea

your DHS tax dollars at work

The Corner on National Review Online

windansea

my link to Andy McCarthy at The Corner above didn't work, here's what he wrote

Maybe This Is Why She Thinks the "Man-Caused Disaster" Threat Comes from Canada? [Andy McCarthy]


In the news once again is Janet Napolitano, our hapless Homeland Security Secretary who calls terrorist attacks "man-caused disasters" (it's a "nuance," says she, used to "move away from the politics of fear"); who's been quick to get those predator drones patrolling the northern border because she thinks the 9/11 hijackers came here from Canada; and who doesn't appear to understand the federal immigration laws she's in charge of enforcing.

Remember that moronic DHS threat assessment from a few months back? The one that warned America about a potential outbreak of "right-wing extremism": i.e., terrorism man-caused disasters stoked by believers in limited government, the right to life, and the Second Amendment — abetted by military veterans returning from fighting for the United States in Iraq and Afghanistan? The one the Obamedia has been trying somehow to vindicate? Well now we know where DHS got its information from.

At the Examiner, Mark Tapscott reports that, after a FOIA demand by a conservative group, DHS produced documents showing that it relied, among other things, on a crackpot website that, like Ban Ki Moon, regularly warns about impending doom, as well as a group from the lefty fringe that, like Nancy Pelosi, sees conservatives and thinks "nazis."

Upon receiving the FOIA disclosures, Americans for Limited Government (ALG) found that DHS "used a kook website to indict the American people in drafting the 'rightwing extremism' memo." That site was whatdoesitmean.com, which, the Examiner observes, "publishes apocalyptic warnings about the end of the world. According to material ALG obtained from DHS,... the federal department used at least 11 citations from the site." The report continues:

"Under Napolitano's watch, government officials who were supposed to be gathering real intelligence on domestic terror threats were instead surfing the web and reading whacky websites, all to create the public perception of 'rightwing extremism,'" [ALG chairman Bill] Wilson said.

The DHS report warned of allegedly impending domestic terrorist acts by gun owners, pro-life activists, people concerned about states rights, and returning U.S. military veterans. Wilson said the department prepared the report "without any intelligence sources, crime data, or actual evidence of planned attacks or any groups known to be planning attacks, or any groups with histories of perpetrating attacks that are currently conducting any types of operational recruitment, meeting, or planning attacks."

You can read a complete list of the web sites used by DHS here. Prominent among those is the site of the Southern Poverty Law Center, a far-left non-profit based in Mongtomery, Alabama, that for years has seen all kinds of Nazis and KKKers behind every bush in America, but especially those located south of Mason-Dixon Line

Extraneus

I suppose "Soylent Green is people!" is out?

Original MikeS

So its so unfair to call them "Death Panels" its really end of life counseling sessions.

No no no. The suicide counseling is not the death panel portion of the bill. The death panel comes first. If the death panel refuses to let you have medical treatment, then you get death counseling.

PeterUK

Dennis the Peasant is on fire about the Obama sell out to PhMA. Dennis is an accountant,he is coming up with the figures.

centralcal

Saw this at Aces:

Major Garrett At Press Conference: Why Are People Who Never Visit the White House Site for Information Getting Emails from David Axelrod, Representing Obama's Political (Non-Governmental) Arm?
—Ace

Are any of you getting the email?

glasater

In scrolling down from windnsea's original link at NRO--Jonah Goldberg writes:

Obama v. Surgeons Con'td [Jonah Goldberg] Okay so there's push back on the College of Surgeons thing. Here's (believe it or not) the most polite email I got that was on point:

I look forward to seeing this on NRO, but I wont hold my breath:

National Statistics For This Procedure Group The statistics apply to all
procedures related to Partial or complete amputation of lower limb (except
toe) for circulatory disorder including:

* Number of cases for this procedure group : 33,960
* Number of hospitals reporting cases for this procedure group : 3,323
* Average list price for this procedure group : $58,200
* Average negotiated price : $18,300
* Average length of stay : 12

Now you can complain that the President used the list price (what someone
without insurance would pay out of pocket) and not the average of negotiated
price, or he should have said hospital cost's and not surgeon's, but the
fact is it costs over $50K for an amputation if you don't have insurance

Here's the transcript of what Obama said, from CQ (no link, I got it from Nexis):

So we are going to be taking steps as part of reform to deal with expanding primary care physicians and our nursing corps. On the doctors front, one of the things we could do is to reimburse doctors who are providing preventive care and not just surgeon who provides care after somebody is sick. Nothing against surgeons. I want surgeons. I don't want to be getting a bunch of letters from surgeons now. I'm not dissing surgeons here.

All I'm saying is: Let's take the example of something like diabetes, a disease that's skyrocketing, partly because of obesity, partly because it's not treated as effectively as it could be. Right now, if we paid a family — if a family care physician works with his or her patient to help them lose weight, modify diet, monitors whether they are taking their medications in a timely fashion, they might get reimbursed a pittance.

But if that same diabetic ends up getting their foot amputated, that's $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, immediately, the surgeon is reimbursed. So why not make sure that we are also reimbursing the care that prevents the amputation? Right? That will save us money.


The interesting link is from VIMO--a health insurance comparative plans site with just a ton of information.

Steve

It is a little known fact that BO's granny needed the hip replacement due to being thrown under the bus...

susie

Here's what barac, pelosis, reid, schumer,frank and the rest of the MOB are going to do to us.

1. Stick us all into the same healthcare plan just like sheep in the same pen. BA BA they can kiss my $$$.

2. Okay, were all in the pen now they can slaughter us. When you get a little older say 60 or so and if you have a nice inheritance set aside for your family they can choose to give you a blue cyanide pill and then impose the death tax on your family stealing over 50% of your inheritance.

3. They want to next run illegal aliens down are throat.

In conclusion, if they don't get this done they will 100% for sure being thrown out of office in 2010. There's still a 99% chance there be thrown out anyways. These commies want to change and control us. They caused 911, bush had to go to war, the stock market was it's highest ever under bush. frank and walters recked the mortgage industry and stole half of our retirements. do we want these same swine doing that with our health care. NO WAY

glenda

In all the ramblings from the Chicago Mob and Obama himself, it is so evident he was lying about having Christ in his heart. Never, would a Christian think government could replace decisions God makes. This goes to his abortion votes, Rev.Wright, the way he dishonored his grandmother and mother. No true goodness in him. He's a robot running low on batteries and surrounded by mad scientists. His narcissism is evident in every move he makes, every word he speaks.

If he believes in Alinsky rules, Davis's brutish core, and that America is in need of his punishing ideas, he'd be a radical. But, I don't really think he believes in anything but self-gratification, i.e. good suits, A-list friends, fancy-vacation houses on loan-an airplane and adoration-feel good stuff, just like in his college?(did he really go?)drug-hazed years.

The sooner he has no power to turn policies and people left off the edge of the earth, the better!

Jane

I want the names of those docs cutting off feet for cash. I could get rich on that information!

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