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August 12, 2009

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Pofarmer

Are any of you getting the email?

Yes, at Whitehouse.gov now you have to register to even see the transcripts of speeches, which weren't behind any kind of firewall under Bush. So, now I'm on the Whitehouse mailing list, which, actually, is rather informative to see what the talking points are.

bgates

There were 885,000 doctors in the US in 2004.

Oh, for Christ's sake. The first Google hit for "number doctors us" is to a Google Answers page for the question "How many doctors are there in the US?" It links to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Employment Statistics page that gives the following breakdown:
Anesthesiologists 23,790
Family and General Practitioners 111,990
Internists, General 50,140
Obstetricians and Gynecologists 19,180
Pediatricians, General 26,910
Psychiatrists 19,530
Surgeons 49,730

Total 301,270


That means a doctor for every 300 people, about the same as the lawyer/population ratio.

In fact, the BLS reports there were 516,220 lawyers in the country in 2003.

It's done a lot for the cost of legal representation, hasn't it?.

You're new to arguing, aren't you.

jhm

This is silly. Insurance companies can't continue to collect premiums from dead people. Thus, they'd prefer that you live rather than die.

Insurance companies will cease to exist under the government plan that Obama is proposing. Read Axelrod's own words about it: 1) No insurance company will be able to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions. So in other words, insurance companies will have to pay exorbitant amounts just to be able to cover these unfortunate folks. In order to do that, it would have to raise premiums tremendously on everyone else. But they won't be able to do that because according to Axelrod, Part 2) says that insurance companies will not be allowed to raise their rates, which means they will then buckle under the cost of hugely increased costs without the necessary raised revenue to cover those costs. Voila! No more insurance companies!

Robert Reich, the architect of the plan, has said outright that he is well aware that the plan will result in the bankrupting of insurance companies. THAT's THE POINT, he says. "It's not a Trojan horse" he says, because "it's all right there!" They're not trying to hide this, they're just counting on people not figuring it out.

PeterUK

Would that be Robert Reich 111 ?

PeterUK

"Robert Reich, the architect of the plan, has said outright that he is well aware that the plan will result in the bankrupting of insurance companies. THAT's THE POINT, he says. "It's not a Trojan horse" he says, because "it's all right there!"

This will have enormous implications for an industry which is truly international.

hit and run

bgates:
Oh, for Christ's sake. The first Google hit for "number doctors us" is ...

Ah, but Dr. Jill Biden is unaccounted for in those numbers as is Henry Gates. Not to mention Dr. J (the former basketball player, not our esteemed grant recipient [congrats!]). And I can assure you that Roxana Mayer is not in those numbers either.

PeterUK

"A longtime friend of Bill and Hillary Clinton (he revealed in his first video blog Vimeo.com on March 7, 2007 that he dated Hillary Clinton while in college), going back to their days together at Oxford, Yale, and the George McGovern presidential election campaign in Dallas, Texas, he was invited to head Clinton's economic transition team. He later joined the administration as Secretary of Labor. During his tenure, he implemented the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA), successfully promoted increasing the minimum wage, successfully lobbied to pass the School-to-Work Jobs Act, and launched a number of job training programs. At the same time, he lobbied Clinton to address bigger societal issues, and pushed for improvement of conditions for those in poverty.

In addition, Reich used the office as a platform for focusing the nation's attention on the need for American workers to adapt to the new economy. He advocated that the country provide more opportunities for workers to learn more technology, and predicted the shrinkage of the middle class due to a gap between unskilled and highly skilled workers.

Reich is 4 feet 10.5 inches (149 cm) tall. His height is a result of multiple epiphyseal dysplasia, also known as Fairbanks disease. This genetic condition has also affected Reich's hips; he had double hip replacement surgery in 1992.[6] Reich has used his height as a source of humor, once appearing with the 6 ft 4 in (193 cm) Conan O'Brien in a sketch on Late Night with Conan O'Brien. Rush Limbaugh would often mock Reich's small size on his television show."

All that AND a date with Hilary!

Ignatz

--My preference is individual health savings accounts coupled with a catastrophic insurance (with certain limits as discussed).--

HSAs currently and always have required a high deductible policy. Couldn't tell if you knew that or were saying it should be that way.

sylvia

Well I haven't heard anyone on here volunteering to completely give up Medicare so that the government "can stop interfering in our lives". In fact the main worry I am getting is that government will cut Medicare under the new program to help fund the younger people. So basically, it's "as long as I get my government hand out, screw your government handout!"

Anyway, I read the London Times a lot and was just reading it again today, and they have an article on the US health reform. And contrary to the image, a lot of ordinary people were writing into the comments and talking about how great and prompt their service was under the NHS, in childbirth, heart attacks, etc. (LUN) So I think it's overblown all these scare tactics. And England is supposed to have one the the worst systems in Europe, and it still doesn't sound that bad.

You also have to remember that England and Canada have some unique circumstances. England has all the "colonies" still and maybe have some overcrowing of the system there. Canada is right next door to the US and since the US pays more, we are draining away their doctors. The same circumstances do not exist here.

Charlie (Colorado)

First demand the government rescind Medicare

Works for me.

sylvia

That's 'overcrowDing' above.

Also they had Obama's personal Chicago doctor on Mike Huckabee on FOX last weekend, which was interesting.The guy seemed like a real Commie. He said Obama used to be in favor of a single payer and seemed disapointed that Obama changed to the public/private mix. He said he thinks Obama was just being practical now and and the doctor seems to think he sold out.

Anyway, the doctor said he was always getting interference from health insurance companies and hardly ever from Medicare. So the other side of the argument is the government is too big and unwieldy and bloated to care about interefering in someone's personal medical care. So maybe we will get LESS intereference under the government.

Charlie (Colorado)

Yeah, their expertise worked out well for Terry Schiavo. No food and water was their recommendation.

Uh, Janet, you want to be careful with that analogy. What happened with Terry Schiavo was that her family wanted to stop extreme treatment to keep her alive, and it was the government that wanted to force the extreme treatment to continue. Since, in the health care case, we're arguing that it's the person's family that should make those decisions, I think the analogy is going to make more trouble than help.

JM Hanes

sylvia:

How many Grannies did you count among the Times's letter writers? Oh, wait.

Pofarmer

and talking about how great and prompt their service was under the NHS, in childbirth, heart attacks, etc

Oh, good Lord.

Those are EMERGENCIES!!!

HELLOOOO!!!!!!

Good Greif.

And this

Canada is right next door to the US and since the US pays more, we are draining away their doctors. The same circumstances do not exist here.

All that does is PROVE the Canadian system sucks.

Frickin, frapppin, wrikckcen, wrappin, retarded liberals.

JM Hanes

Maybe Obama's disillusioned doctor will finally fill us in on Obama's medical history.

bgates

What happened with Terry Schiavo was that her family wanted to stop extreme treatment to keep her alive, and it was the government that wanted to force the extreme treatment to continue.

Where "family" means Terry's husband who had already fathered children with another woman at the time, and "the government" means Terry's parents.

Pofarmer

The guy seemed like a real Commie.

Anyway, the doctor said he was always getting interference from health insurance companies and hardly ever from Medicare.

So you trust the guy beccaaauuussseeee?

So the other side of the argument is the government is too big and unwieldy and bloated to care about interefering in someone's personal medical care. So maybe we will get LESS intereference under the government.

How much DUMBER can the arguments get?

Pofarmer

I see bgates already beat me to the problem with Charlies interpretation of the Sciavo case.

sylvia

"Those are EMERGENCIES!!!"

Well read all the comments. There were all kind of situations. And I have read many comments in that paper in the past too on the situation there and hardly ever seen much criticism. These are the people who know. Not the US insurance industry propagandists.

"All that does is PROVE the Canadian system sucks."

Uhhh, how? It proves we pay more for doctors, that's all.

go dog go

"Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious (an irrelevancy) discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years." -Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel (medical journal The Lancet, January 09)

Oh, by the way, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel -- who is the health-policy adviser at the White House Office of Management and Budget and a member of the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research, will determine who and how health care will be rationed should the albatross of ‘ObamaCare’ be tied around our necks.

The “Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research” is modeled after a U.K. board (NICE). This board, NICE, approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. “Obamacare” is not trying to reinvent HC per say…they have fashioned HR 3200 using those models and foundational principles of countries that already have National Health Insurance. So look to the source and tremble at the “Brave New World” being proposed.

sylvia

"Maybe Obama's disillusioned doctor will finally fill us in on Obama's medical history."

Yes, with all the slippery mysterious history of Obama, I was fascinated to see someone who actually knew Obama! So the guy was a real human after all!

bgates

So maybe we will get LESS intereference under the government.

Maybe just passing a Democrat bill will mark the end of all human suffering and the cure for death.

I mean, we can't know unless we try, right?

Well I haven't heard anyone on here volunteering to completely give up Medicare

I'd be in favor of abandoning Medicare, but I'm 34, so inexorable economics will do that for me.

I take your point that it's hypocritical to oppose the expansion of something that currently exists in some form, and I hope I won't hear any bellyaching out of you when Obama announces he'll be President for Life (he already has a 4 year term, so that's just an expansion) safeguarded by martial law (the military is already active outside our borders, that's just an expansion).

JM Hanes

Surely, sylvia, you can't object to subsidizing all those medications developed in the U.S. which are saving lives around the world!

Pofarmer

Uhhh, how? It proves we pay more for doctors, that's all.

It shows the Canadian system isn't competitive.

Sylvia, look at the average wait times for procedures in the UK and Canada. Joint replacement is a good one. The wait to see a specialist can easily be four months, the wait for the joint is often more than six. The avg wait for an angioplasty in Canada is something on the order of 9 months. The only way you can be happy with that kind of "service" is if you don't know any better.

bgates

Uhhh, how? It proves we pay more for doctors, that's all.

It proves people respond to economic incentives. If Canadian doctors will leave Canada to come here and make more money, why won't American doctors stay where they are and change careers to make more money?

Porchlight

Where "family" means Terry's husband who had already fathered children with another woman at the time, and "the government" means Terry's parents.

And "extreme treatment" means being given food and water.

PeterUK

Sylvia,
Sorry blossom,but you are talking out of you nether orifice.The NHS is like trying to keep a jelly fish in a colander,no matter what the government does it can't keep control of expenditure.

Here

The ratio of administrative staff to medical staff Here.

There is loads of bumf on the subject,get your head out of the Times and Google.

If you feel like spending money Here.

JM Hanes

bgates:

"Maybe just passing a Democrat bill will mark the end of all human suffering and the cure for death."

That's what preventitive care is all about! If you spend all your free time eating sprouts and jogging, you'll never have to worry about doctors harvesting your body parts, either.

Janet

Charlie - I just know that Terry did not die from a disease, or infection, or heat failure - she died from starvation/dehydration...while her parents and brother watched in horror. The "medical experts" advocating the no food or water plan were hired by her "husband".

I was addressing this quote from above, and wondering who the doctors, scientists, and ethicists would be.

"THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. "

centralcal

Excellent, bgates!!!!!

Janet

**heart failure**

Porchlight

It might not just be the money, either. Maybe Canadian doctors also come here because they're disgusted by the waiting lists an other rationing schemes and want to work in a country where they can help more people.

(Cue Septic to show up and say that's impossible, doctors are *only* in it for the money.)

fdcol63

How many of us will be forced into psychiatric counseling or inpatient facilities - or just "medicated" - because we have "anger issues" or are diagnosed as "anti-social" because we criticize the government?

bgates

There is loads of bumf on the subject

Every Democratic and European plan I've heard is a load of bumf.

sylvia

"Surely, sylvia, you can't object to subsidizing all those medications developed in the U.S. which are saving lives around the world! "

That's true. I agree. We have the best pharmaceutical industry and best drug research, and that's what gives us our better outcomes in cancer cases compared to Europe. I hope we can combine the best of both worlds there and keep that advantage with expanding service.

And Pofarmer, there are some stats that favor the US. Elective surgery, such as joint replacement is one. Although I have also read letters into the London Times where people were pleased about the wait times for their joint replacements, so maybe it's uneven there. But lets assume there is a longer wait time there. Another thing we lead in again are certain cancers, due to our cutting edge drugs.

However, there are plenty of other stats that I have posted in the past here, where Europe beats us. Doctors per patient, wait time to see a primary, wait time for a specialist, medical errors, hospital beds per patient etc. In all of these the US is trailing! Now I don't know specifically to the UK, as UK is one of the worst there, but we are trailing Germany and France, Italy etc, in mostly all stats!

So maybe they trail in some areas, but they lead in other areas.

PeterUK

After a public outcry NICE permitted blindness drug.
There was also a scandal over the requirement to go blind in one eye before treatment could be given.No sure if it was the same drug.

Ignatz

--I just know that Terry did not die from a disease, or infection, or hea[r]t failure--

I think she died from heart failure; but it wasn't hers that failed.

sylvia

Well PUK, I read one of your articles and saw this:

"Most of the successes have come from incentives to reform, not from extra funding. Patient choice led to a remarkable fall in waiting times for heart surgery. These have stayed down. Treatment for cataracts is immediately available as a result of competition from independent centres."

Seems like things are getting better there. Like I said, UK is the worst because they had the least amount of private access. But it seems they are trying to adjust.

Jabelson

Ah, hysterical rightwingers! if it's not Muslims hiding under the bed, it's councils of bureaucratic bean counter waiting to turn grandma into soylant green! I actually like the over the top rhetoric. Smart wingnuts don't actually believe this nonsense - that's for the flyover incest crowd - and the brain-dead geezers waiting to die between episodes of Matlock - no, the smart wingnuts need to pump up the volume because they know they're liars - and when the legislation passes and there are no death panels, and private insurance and big pharma still blossom, the right will once again be exposed as kooks, obstructionists and liars. If they were just honest and admitted that they only care about money and ensuring that American industry ALWAYS wins - no matter the cost to the small guy - I could respect them. But as usual they go to fear to try to win. But they always end up losing...

Janet

Ignatz - well said.

PeterUK

"Seems like things are getting better there. Like I said, UK is the worst because they had the least amount of private access. But it seems they are trying to adjust."

What you are talking about is government imposed targets,not necessarily good medicine but higher throughput.

But note your mention of "private access" and "Treatment for cataracts is immediately available as a result of "competition from independent centres."

The market is pushing the NHS because the patients who can afford it are walking.

Ignatz

--- that's for the flyover incest crowd - and the brain-dead geezers waiting to die between episodes of Matlock ---

OK, PUK, stop the sockpuppeting to try and make lefties look like total, scumbag nutters.

Charlie (Colorado)

HMO panels are profit-oriented, but you prefer that to the politically motivated? That is a false choice.

Well, no, and for two reasons. (1) Many HMOs are not for profit, see, eg, Kaiser-Permanente; (2) a for profit HMO with competition has more reason to try to be efficient. With a government-run "HMO of last resort" or worse with a single-payer system, the rewards don't come from better outcomes or better customer satisfaction.

PeterUK

Ignatz

No,I think that was the authentic gibberish of a scumbag nutter. Or someone who reads their posts.

fdcol63

Matlock? I thought they all watched "Murder She Wrote".

sylvia

Okay I heard some guy, I think the commie Senator from Vermont, say on Neil Cavutto that one CEO of a health insurance company got a billion, with a 'b', dollar compensation package! Now I don't know if that is true, I must google I suppose, but if true, that is crazy. What kind of profits are these insurance companies making? I think bigger than people know.

glasater

Jabelson-

We will all one day be held accountable for our thoughts, words and actions.

I truly feel pity for you.

PeterUK

" What kind of profits are these insurance companies making? I think bigger than people know."

What kind of profits do governments make? And you get balls all for it.

Original MikeS

If they were just honest and admitted that they only care about money and ensuring that American industry ALWAYS wins

You are aware that when the American health industry wins, it wins our personal money right? It would be nonsense for you to suggest people are willing to sacrifice thier personal funds so that "American industry Always wins."

The fact is that competition always drives down price or improves quality. Whereas government control and central planning have a very poor track record.

pagar

"The guy seemed like a real Commie."

IMO, you can say the same about 90% of the Obama Administration.

PeterUK

"We will all one day be held accountable for .our thoughts, words and actions.

I truly feel pity for you."

Nah,they kind of like that stuff in the Bowels of Hell

Original MikeS

" What kind of profits are these insurance companies making? I think bigger than people know."


They make about 2.2% on gross sales.

Charlie (Colorado)

Except that in Canada at least, physicians are barred from providing those procedures, even if folks have money, so, that already falls flat in practice.

Wrong tense. Actually, they were barred, until the Canadian version of the Supreme Court ruled that the Canadian system was inadequate and so the government must allow people onto the open market.

I know when I lived there, just before the turn of the century, doctors loved having me come in, since I was covered by US insurance and they could bill for that.

stumbley

Hey, Adam, something to think about:

You'll be 80 someday too, if you stop smoking crack.

sylvia

"just before the turn of the century"

For a second I was thinking, Charlie is THAT old? Until I remember the year 2000. I keep thinking about the millenia, but it's a century too.

PeterUK

Well, thats the American College of Surgeons under the bus. Is there anyone who the Chicago Shyster hasn't traduced?

sylvia

"They make about 2.2% on gross sales. "

Do they? Where'd you get that? And considering we spend what, 16% of our economy on medical, even 2.2 is a lot of bucks.

Charlie (Colorado)

Well I haven't heard anyone on here volunteering to completely give up Medicare so that the government "can stop interfering in our lives".

Now you have.

PeterUK

"Do they? Where'd you get that? And considering we spend what, 16% of our economy on medical, even 2.2 is a lot of bucks."

So you would rather the government have it and spend it on executive jets?

sylvia

"IMO, you can say the same about 90% of the Obama Administration."

Yesh, he was a thin, white guy, maybe 50 ish, had that bald professor look, with the Lennon wire rim specs. Just so you all can picture him, for the benefit for those who hadn't seen him. Seemed very uptight, very nervous type. Forget his name now.

Charlie (Colorado)

Where "family" means Terry's husband who had already fathered children with another woman at the time, and "the government" means Terry's parents.

What part of the Senate and House, various resolutions, court cases, etc did you miss?

In any case, you can certainly come up with all sorts of extenuating circumstances in whatever way you want: the fact is that her family, next of kin under the law, was on the opposite side from this argument. The analogy is not helping your case.

sylvia

"Now you have."

Well you're the only one. But one's not enough. It takes a village Charlie.

Charlie (Colorado)

Charlie - I just know that Terry did not die from a disease, or infection, or heat failure - she died from starvation/dehydration...while her parents and brother watched in horror. The "medical experts" advocating the no food or water plan were hired by her "husband".

Well, then I'd start by reading a little more about what she actually died from.

But then that's my point: ignorance is no excuse, and using an analogy without considering what the analogy is actually saying isn't going to help.

glasater

A female doctor representing the health insurance industry was interviewed by Mark Haynes of Squawk on the Street the other morning.

Her claim was that the health insurance industry got one penny out of every dollar spent on healthcare.

sylvia

"So you would rather the government have it and spend it on executive jets?"

No, but a non-profit might not be so bad.

PeterUK

"It takes a village Charlie."

You should ring home.

Charlie (Colorado)

Okay I heard some guy, I think the commie Senator from Vermont, say on Neil Cavutto that one CEO of a health insurance company got a billion, with a 'b', dollar compensation package! Now I don't know if that is true, I must google I suppose, but if true, that is crazy. What kind of profits are these insurance companies making? I think bigger than people know.

Well, that's actually all public information, Sylvia. You could try Googling.

PeterUK

"No, but a non-profit might not be so bad."

You are calling people communists?

Charlie (Colorado)

For a second I was thinking, Charlie is THAT old? Until I remember the year 2000. I keep thinking about the millenia, but it's a century too.

Yeah, that amuses me no end; being born in the 50's, I grew up with that phrase meaning "pre-1900".

Captain Hate

Damn I'm older than ChaCo :fingerpistoltothehead

Charlie (Colorado)

Her claim was that the health insurance industry got one penny out of every dollar spent on healthcare.

I don't know if that's the exact figure, but it's certainly the right order of magnitude. I mean, think of it: the US GDP is something like, what, 14 trillion dollars? So 16 pct of 14 trillion is about $ 2.3 trillion. A penny on the dollar on that is $23 billion.

Charlie (Colorado)

Damn I'm older than ChaCo :fingerpistoltothehead

Thank God *someone* is.

soccer dad

Tapper:

Asked by ABC News in an interview about the thoroughly discredited claim by former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to paint his philosophical writings as evidence -- along with a provision providing optional end of life counseling in the House Democrats’ health care reform bill -- that President Obama wants to set up “death panels” to deny medical treatments to seniors and the disabled, including her son Trig, Emanuel, brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel, does not hold back.

"thoroughly discredited?" Or does he only mean that the assertion is discredited if Gov. Palin claims that it came from his writings?

Captain Hate

Some of the Tapperholics have to jump on him quickly about that. I thought he was one of the good guys!?!

Porchlight

Thoroughly discredited, yeah right. The Dems are talking openly about advisory boards that will determine levels of coverage and reimbursement (read: ration treatment).

She's so thoroughly discredited that Grassley just announced that the Finance Committee was dropping the end-of-life counseling provision in their version of the bill.

That doesn't kill the death panels/advisory boards, unfortunately, but it does show that her comments hit the target. No wonder Zeke Emanuel is pissed. Rationing end-of-life care is his grail.

Ignatz

Her claim is thoroughly discredited because the Senate somehow just deleted the non existant item from the proposed legislation (for now).

PeterUK

Elderly man lies in his hospital bed. A woman in a white coat comes over too him.

"How'm I doin' Doctor?"

"I'm not a doctor,I'm your End-of-Life Counsellor".

centralcal

At lunch, I noticed on every channel the new meme is that the "death panels" have been "proven" false, yadda, yadda.

That must have been the critical wound to Obama Deathcare, since the media is rushing from all direction to try and stanch the bleeding.

PeterUK

Sylvia
Is this your thin man with glasses? If so it is Zeke himself.

DebinNC

Seems like the "death panel" language in the bill is being conflated with the "end of life counseling" language in HR 3200. They're two separate things, right? A mandated talk about living wills isn't the same as having a politically appointed "stakeholders" board (I've heard only requiring one be a medical doctor) drawing up a truncated course of care available for those with chronic illnesses who are deemed "less valuable" than others.

I hope I haven't missed Jim R's translation of the part of HR 3200 relating to that board of "stakeholders". The bill imo is purposely written in obfuscating legalese designed to prevent folks from understanding what it says.

PeterUK

"Seems like the "death panel" language in the bill is being conflated with the "end of life counselling" language in HR 3200. They're two separate things, right? A mandated talk about living wills isn't the same as having a politically appointed "stakeholders" board".

As one nears the end of ones life,one is fully aware of the inevitability of death. Is some snot nosed kid talking to you about it going to help?

glenda

cc: and every reporter or anchor sans Fox always inserts "race" into every discussion they have on the mob. That usually happens when the WH knows they're losing the debate.
Remember, we must keep this up until the next elections, after we defeat the current monster HC bill, we go to cap n trade, immigration reform, keep the prisoners in Guantanamo off our soil--and the most worrisome one to me, these unconstitutional czars--talk about "death panels"=some czars are for death of liberty, plain and simple..
and now the fishy emails Major Garrett asked Gibbs today at the daily WH presser.
Jane, maybe you could ask Dick about what he knows about the czars--I think they're close to 50 now.Not that you don't have enough to do, right?

Pofarmer

"Most of the successes have come from incentives to reform, not from extra funding. Patient choice led to a remarkable fall in waiting times for heart surgery. These have stayed down. Treatment for cataracts is immediately available as a result of competition from independent centres."

OH GOOD LORD!!!!

They're getting better because they are becoming more LIKE US..

WHAT MADNESS IS THIS?

PaulL

No, Tapper is not one of the good guys. In fact, you could make a case that he is one of the most despicable of the reporters, because he clearly has enough intelligence to know what is going on, but he still stands behind Obama.

Tapper always backs down from Gibbs. He likes his cushy correspondent job. He doesn't want to risk losing his position and he fully supports Obama's agenda. That's why he'll point out inconsistencies but he'll always let them drop.

bgates

What part of the Senate and House, various resolutions, court cases, etc did you miss?

The part where a woman's parents were defined as "the government" as opposed to her family, and the part where the trial judge to whom the husband deferred the decision was defined as "the family".

the fact is that her family, next of kin under the law, was on the opposite side from this argument.

There's more to "family" than "next of kin under the law".

The analogy is not helping your case.

The misrepresentations aren't helping your credibility.

The problem with big government in general is that even when laws are drafted that give a sensible result in the vast majority of cases, like defining "next of kin" for a married woman in her 40s as her husband rather than her parents, there will be edge cases where the husband has started a family with another woman, which make the law look like an ass.

centralcal

glenda: Fox isn't always favorable. During my lunch hour it is hysterical, wild eyed Shep Smith. And never forget Geraldo, the bozo, who is even worse. I am sure he has brought race into it every chance he got.

centralcal

PaulL, I couldn't agree with you more about Tapper.

Kilroy

Imagine Bush saying right after Hurricane Katrina...Those who died made up 80% of the welfare role in New Orleans. Impeach the bum...

glasater

No, Tapper is not one of the good guys.

I agree also PaulL--at the risk of incurring Maybee's wrath.

I you are into twitter--just follow Jake Tapper for a time and read his "tweets". That'll give you a flavor of where the guy is coming from.

clarice

I'm getting really old..wasn't it just yesterday that someone(Ambinder?) in the Atlantic waxed poetic about how Specter's townhall apearance was really helping him?

SEND BETTER PUNDITS PLEASE!!!!!

clarice

The "non existent" death panel's been dropped from the bill.http://sweetness-light.com/archive/never-existing-death-panel-gets-dropped


Captain Hate

Clarice, are you in Mountain Time Zone?

bad

I feel like an idiot for asking this but how do they drop something from a bill when they are not insession?

Captain Hate

Don't worry, bad; I think they've done more work on this "vacation" than they have the rest of the year.

DebinNC

They're not dropping the "death panel" as described by Palin. They're dropping the end of life counseling requirement. would someone kindly correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't want to keep displaying my ignorance.

Extraneus

He surely knows full well what happened to his predecessor Brit Hume for asking Clinton impertinant questions.

But anyway, just like the "discredited" Swifties, Mrs. Palin has scored a direct hit, and the blood is still gushing out.

PeterUK

"They're not dropping the "death panel" as described by Palin. They're dropping the end of life counseling requirement."

Anyone told Ted?

Janet

Boards, government panels, "experts"...all making choices for YOU. Who are these "experts", and what is their belief system. It will matter. If the "experts" place the same value on a tree frog as a human, then less people is better for the tree frog. The extreme environmentalists wield a lot of power in the Obama admin., and I think that value system will bleed over into the health care debate IF the government takes over all health care.

DebinNC

I think the "dropping" news came from Grassley and only applies to the Senate Finance Committee bill which they may still be working on during the break.

Pofarmer

Sarah Palin has been thoroughly debunked just like the Swift Boat Vets were Thoroughly discredited.

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Wilson/Plame