More Blue On Blue

Fans of hot blue on blue action will want to watch the reactions to Richard Cohen's piece pile up at Memeorandum.  Cohen writes on the potential payoff to enhanced interrogation; his gist:

I am torn between my desire for absolute security and my abhorrence of torture. The one thing I know is that ideology does not provide an answer. For me, it settles nothing that Dick Cheney supported enhanced interrogation and that Cheney was wrong and deceitful on the war. It settles nothing that Cheney defined torture as something so extreme that almost anything less than, say, the rack is permissible interrogation. The issue is not Cheney. The issue is the issue.

Too late for second thoughts now!

My nominee for the Cohen comment most likely to spark lefty outrage is this:

No one can possibly believe that America is now safer because of the new restrictions on enhanced interrogation and the subsequent appointment of a special prosecutor.

Of course you can believe it!  Our regained moral stature has led to increased cooperation with other nations on security issues, reduced recruitment by Al Qaeda, and a better world for all. Do cite National Security Advisor Jim Jones when regaling us with your beliefs, by the way. As to whether this increased international cooperation was due to the changes in Obama's policies and/or required the supplemental announcement of a special prosecutor, well, keep on believing.

As a runner-up nominee, Cohen deserves to take some flack for this false moral equivalence:

Attorney General Eric Holder has named a special prosecutor to see whether any of the CIA's interrogators broke the law. Special prosecutors are often themselves like interrogators -- they don't know when to stop. They go on and on because, well, they can go on and on. One of them managed to put Judith Miller of The New York Times in jail -- a wee bit of torture right there.

Legitimate, court-ordered jail time is not torture! 

THE SCORE SO FAR:  Hmm, the Big Tent at TalkLeft denounces the Miller/torture angle.  Is my "Place" bet going to be first across the line?

Comments

[fdcol63]

When your reasoning is circular, it's easy to find yourself in a circular firing squad .... or a circle jerk.

[clarice]

Pincus of the Post has an article comparing the treatment Col Allen West received compared to that the CIA interrogators are receiving for essentially the same behavior.
West is running for Congress again and again I am hosting a fundraiser for him in DC (this time in Feb). If anyone cares to come or contribute let me know and I'll see you get on the invite list.

[Ranger]

Hmmm... given that one element of an act being torturous is if it is gratuitous or not, Cohen may have a point. The simple infliction of suffering, either physical or psycological, is not torture, but it can become torture if it is done purely for the sake of inflicting that suffering. Given that Fitz threw Miller in jail to get testemony out of her that Libby had already asked her to give, it could be argued that the infliction of the psycological suffering of jail was not done for the purpose of getting her to testify about Libby. More likely, it was payback for her tipping off the targets of the Holy Land investigation. Fitz's chance to be judge, jury, and exicutioner without all that due process stuff clogging things up.

[MikeO]

Interesting tidbit from the Jones quote in the linked Tapper article (bolding mine):

“The world is coming together on this matter now that President Obama has taken the leadership on it and is approaching it in a slightly different way – actually a radically different way – to discuss things with other rulers to enhance the working relationships with law enforcement agencies – both national and international."

This NSA, after his illustrious military career of service to this country, doesn't know that only the law rules here? It could be the kind of astute analysis that leads to calling a shovel a "shovel," or it could be that the general wants his turn on the throne some time down the road.

We have problems.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Legitimate, court-ordered jail time is not torture!

Why not? It's certainly worse than having someone blow cigar smoke in your face. I've seen examples of people using the word "torture" to describe someone in custody not having a private bathroom.

What you've got here is somewhat at the core of the problem: what is torture? Pulling out your fingernails? I'd sure think so. No private bath? Probably not. Cigar burns, yeah, cigar smoke, I don't think so.

"Extraordinary rendition?" Apparently only if you didn't vote for the administration in power at the time.

[Neo]

Given that Fitz threw Miller in jail to get testemony out of her that Libby had already asked her to give ..

Remember that Miller wasn't so much afraid of talking about Libby, but rather it was her fear that Fitz would go after other of his "pet" grand jury projects which Miller had "special" information that kept Miller silent.

[Ranger]

Legitimate, court-ordered jail time is not torture!

Well, it's not legitimate if the prosecutor lies to the court to get the person put in jail in the first place.

[bishop]

That's not a typo,that's why his boss, by which I mean Rhodes and McDonough, had Obama
speak in the home of the Pharoah Mubarak.

[Jack is Back!]

Clarice,

Colonel West is not in my district but I am prepared to make a contribution for this American hero. I normally don't contribute to dog-faces being an Air Force vet myself but anything to get rid of Ron Klein, doofus Alan Grayson and super-doofus Suzanne Kosmas. My own critter is John Mica and he has his issues like they all do but is basically a solid conservative. I remember his brother Dan when he was Paul Rodgers chief of staff. That was back in the day when being a democrat was the same as being a "compassionate conservative and a hawk".

[Ranger]

What you've got here is somewhat at the core of the problem: what is torture? Pulling out your fingernails? I'd sure think so. No private bath? Probably not. Cigar burns, yeah, cigar smoke, I don't think so.

Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) | September 01, 2009 at 11:51 AM

Actually, the problem is that the anti-war left has deliberately confused and obscured the definition.

[Thomas Collins]

Are JOMers having trouble getting to Fun With Dick and Jane from Father Preble's site? The link to the live broadcast of the show seems to be gone.

[peter]

Man I love hot blue on blue action.

Gmax, by the powers bestowed upon me by absolutely no one, I hereby pin on your chest the coveted "JOM Post of the Day" award. Wear it proudly.

[gmax]

Bow

Blush

Ever notice that after awhile hot blue on blue action just seems kinda plain vanilla?

How about some Blue on (Code) Pink for a change of pace?

[gmax]

But if you cant get enough of this stuff, then coming soon to a theatre near you will be the 3 D version. Democrat John Zogby reviews the previews so much better than I ever could. Take it away John:

Pollster John Zogby: President Obama is now firmly between a rock and a hard place. Democrats want a strong healthcare reform bill with a public option. Republicans and more conservative Democrats do not agree. If Obama fails to get a bill that his base supporters want, the entire Democratic Party risks alienating them; especially 18-29-year-old First GlobalsTM, who could very quickly become disenchanted with politics. Obama needs to enter the fray in a very public way, which may mean knocking heads with both wings of his own party.

[maryrose]

Gmax:
I congratulate you on post of the day and a song comes to mind..
Blue on blue, heartache on heartache"

[Jane]

It's been down all day TC.

[Barbara]

OT
Last night fire breaks were set to prevent the fire from coming over the ridge and down into the communities. For the most of the night those efforts were successful, however, the fire is now approaching the houses in the part of the area known as the Glendale Annex.

Firefighters (known as Hotshots) who specialize in this type of fire have been brought in from Nevada. These guys have been great. They've been setting backfires to protect the homes and have been working all the night to prevent the fire from moving south. We live in the Glendale Annex about 2 miles from where those backfires have been set.

This is all occurring while air assets like the super scooper from Canada sit on the tarmac in Van Nuys. There is no perceptible wind today, so we can't understand why they aren't being used. When questioned by a persistent reporter, Gov. Schwarzenegger started blathering something about not having enough money in the budget! That's just BUNK!

This is so frustrating, so please forgive my venting. Thank God for those Hotshots from Nevada, because without them I don't want to even think about what could happen.

[Thomas Collins]

Barbara, reports from JOMers in the fire areas are never off topic. Thanks for the update, and we are all saying our prayers for you and the others who are facing this.

I hope Schwarzenegger figures out that in emergency situations such as this leaders figure out a way to get the needed equipment.

Is Obama being proactive? I would hope so, given the manner in which the Dems trashed GWB over Katrina

[maryrose]

Barbara and JD please be careful. We are praying for your safety. What a nightmare!

[Jane]

Barbara,

Hang tough! That must be one scary situation.

[glasater]

Is Obama being proactive?

TC
Last I read he had been out on a golf course!

[glasater]

Plus, Zero is busy getting ready for the big Ramadan celebration at the WH this evening.
He can't be bothered with thinking on the horrendous fires in CA.

[MayBee]

exactly, Charlie.

And today marc ambinder is on twitter wondering why Americans don't see our torturers in the same way we see Nazis.

[Rob Crawford]

It settles nothing that Cheney defined torture as something so extreme that almost anything less than, say, the rack is permissible interrogation.

What an utter load of crap. No such thing ever happened.

[gmax]

Put me down for the use of the rack too, if it has even a decent chance of saving Americans lives from the jihadis schemes.

[Ignatz]

--There is no perceptible wind today, so we can't understand why they aren't being used.--

Barbara,

Fires create their own winds which can be sufficient, in the right conditions, to make air operations unsafe.
Additionally, if there is no wind at all visibility can be so bad that they are grounded as well.

If they could fly, they'd be flying.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Additionally, if there is no wind at all visibility can be so bad that they are grounded as well.

Hell, I went out to take an hour of helicopter dual today (my first, and very interesting it is, too) and the smoke IN DENVER is so bad it was impeding flight ops.

Yes, from the Station fire. 1200 miles away.

[Cecil Turner]

This NSA, after his illustrious military career of service to this country, doesn't know that only the law rules here?

The other gaffe is this one (which I think, given the subject, is even more egregious):

“I think anybody who works in a law enforcement agency -- whether it is the police or FBI or CIA -- have to know clearly what the rules are . . .

Obama's decision to relegate interrogations to an ad hoc law enforcement organization is bad, but not even realizing it is a shift is far worse.

I've seen examples of people using the word "torture" to describe someone in custody not having a private bathroom.

No kidding. And Cohen was completely unsatisfying on the point:

The questions of what constitutes torture and what to do with those who, maybe innocently, applied what we now define as torture have to be removed from the political sphere.

Perhaps he doesn't know that his fellow liberals are the ones resisting a definition, or perhaps he just doesn't care. But as long as they insist on defining torture as "whatever Republicans do," their moral high ground will remain a molehill.

[Original MikeS]

I always enjoy a good blue on blue fight, and I would hate to distract the Dems when they're busy digging a hole. So, I will keep my opinion about the heroes who prevented an attack on our homeland, for 8 years now, to myself.

[Barbara]

Update on the Station Fire:
Firefighters have made good progress today and have increased the containment area from 5% to 22%. The Sunland and Tujunga areas were hit pretty hard, however, some of the evacuation orders have been lifted in the La Canada and La Crescenta areas.

There is still a battle to save the Mt. Wilson Observatory and the vital communication towers located on that peak. They've laid backfires around it, and will most likely have to be there through the night.

Apart from the terrible smoke and the ash falling everywhere, we're doing okay. So, we're very, very grateful!

A detailed update on the fires can be found at InciWeb, the Incident Information System (http://inciweb.org/incident/1856/).

There is also an interesting photo of the fire at NASA's Earth Observatory (LUN).

Thank you all for your encouraging words, information and prayers!