Health Care Road Map

The Politico points out some of the landmines ahead.

Robert Samuelson explains that in the political scuffle between youth and experience, bet on the AARP.

Mickey Kaus fears neither asteroids nor Ezra Klein.

Finally, legalize and tax.  It's a gamechanger.

Comments

[Old Lurker]

We.Are.So.Screwed.

[Old Lurker]

What fresh hell is this, imposed by Typhuspad???

[Porchlight]

Rasmussen is back down to -13. Nine straight days in double-digit negatives, a record.

And support for ObamaCare has now fallen to 38%, also a new low. 60% believe passage of the bill will lead to higher health care costs.

Not that Congress is listening.

[J]

Why are the dems so sure they will pay NO political price for this bill?

[J]

Legalize marijuana....the dems want a doped up constituency.....they are SO much easier to rule.

[Pofarmer]

Why are the dems so sure they will pay NO political price for this bill?

Because the liberal media has them convinced their own spin is correct?

Because they managed to get a one term Senator with no real accomplishments elected POTUS?

They think we'll all love it so much we'll just HAVE to reelect them?

Some kind of gas in the Capital buildings?

[Pofarmer]

Congress people in General have a low IQ?

(This could go on for a while).

[Pofarmer]

If they get unelected, they know they'll make more working in the bureaucracy they just created?

[clarice]

They got a summary of the latest IPCC which has this hockey stick chart that tells them they are winners?

[Porchlight]

No, they know they will pay a price. They are thinking long term. They may lose a couple of cycles, but the entitlement and the expansion of government power it creates is forever. So they have calculated that it is worth the short-term sacrifice.

[Porchlight]

Actually scratch that above comment. They haven't made any such calculatios, they just think we are really that stupid.

[MikeS]

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, Democrats actually believe that government, meaning they themselves along with their friends, can do everything better than private enterprise and free markets.

Democrats actually believe it is unfair to refer to a board that limits health-care treatments, which will inevitably lead to the death of some patients, as a death panel.

They believe that the reason central planning and authority failed in the Soviet Union, Korea, Cuba, et.al., is because they didn't have the Dems managing it.

Dems have no understanding of the fact that taxes are money that is 'skimmed off the top' of free enterprise. When free enterprise declines, so do revenues.

[pagar]

"They haven't made any such calculatios, they just think we are really that stupid."

That is why we are hearing such garbage as:

"U.S. Sen. Michael Bennet said Sunday that he is willing to trade his job for health care reform, if that is what a vote in favor of President Barack Obama’s top domestic priority eventually costs him."

LUN

The Democrats think that we are so stupid that they can just switch out one Obama supporter and get another such person in the same job. IMO, it makes no difference who they put up. Every single one of the them comes from an education system that thinks William Ayres is a top educator, that America is not worth defending, that all wealth generated by Americans should be used by the government to insure that no more wealth is generated in America, that any one in the world should have the right to come to America, preferably as an illegal so that American taxpayers have to provide for them, that voter fraud is justified as long as the Democrats win, the list goes on and on. The saddest thing is, that history proves that as long as the politician promises to take it away from those who have legally earned some income and give it to those unwilling to earn any, they will be elected, at any level.

[MikeS]

...that all wealth generated by Americans should be used by the government to insure that no more wealth is generated in America.

Priceless! HEH!

[matt]

blogged on how the dems are going to try and turn America into a One party state like Mexico....dirty as it gets...

[Pofarmer]

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, Democrats actually believe that government, meaning they themselves along with their friends, can do everything better than private enterprise and free markets.

In other words, they're communists.

[Neo]

Just 38% of voters now favor the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats.

The natives are getting restless.

They thought they had sent a message to cut out the [email protected], but NOoooooo .. the DemocRATs just won't give up.

[MDr]

Bend over, tuck your head between your knees, and kiss ......

Game over. America has lost. Something will be passed, the Feds' foot in the door, and it's all down hill from there. Recall - it'll take 60 votes in a future Senate to roll back whatever any damage the DemonCrooks inflict now. Given the evolving demographics - ain't gonna happen.

[Angellight]

The GOP Congress has indeed become the best Congress money can buy! I do not think that many of us are really surprised by this but the question is "what do we do to overcome this long-time problem?"

Saturday night's Senate Vote Just to have a debate on Healthcare, was a small victory for the "agents of change" (democrats) and reflects very poorly on the state of the Party of No & Fear that they would not even allow a debate on this issue to move forward -- thereby belying the title of being the greatest deliberative body on earth!

It is noteworthy, that in the past, the Party of No & Fear, also fought against Social Security Reform and Medicare, and true to form or color, they are fighting against healthcare reform today! Yes, Social Security and Medicare are subject to abuse and fraud, but that is one of the reforms in the healthcare bill to address this problem! Millions depend on Social Security and Medicare and they are glad that it is there. They want it improved upon not done away with.

The naysayers have even tried to Sabotage the reform by introducing a phony abortion debate (we all know Nancy Pelosi will never allow abortions to be done away with) , and another womens' issue (how time appropriate) was introduced (I smell a rat) into the debate -- that of Mammograms and the fear that we are somehow on our way to healthcare rationing, when we all should know that we are already experiencing healtcare rationing every time someone is denied healthcare because of a Preconceived Condition or some other phony condition like they weigh too much, etc. The aforementioned debates are false and designed to produce fear, to immobilize and to paralyze the masses to do nothing. We must come to recognize that "Fear is the dark ones’ most powerful weapon against the light because the energy of fear not only forms a barrier between the consciousness and the soul, it refuels the darkness to keep it thriving." [Matthews Messages].

We must also recognize that "as money has in the past ministered to personal and family need, so in the future it must minister to group and world need. The time has now come when money must be re-valued and its usefulness channelled into new directions. The voice of the people must prevail, but it must be a people educated in the true values, in the significance of a right culture, and in the need for right human relations. It is therefore essentially a question of right education and correct training in world citizenship – a thing that has not yet been undertaken." [Money, The Medium of Loving Distribution, A Compilation from the books of Alice A Bailey ]

Thank God for the Agents of Change who try to make a difference in the lives of ordinary human beings, whose intentions and Duty are to uplift the conditions of the people and to serve the people.... They try to raise the minimum wage, they try to extend unemployment benefits, they try to make sure there is clean water and clean air, but its hard and there is always a fight from the best Congress money can buy, whose mission is to stall and to obstruct and to incite fear! And, at this time in our history, like so much else, Healthcare reform is Crying Out for Change. And, as Science teaches us to do nothing and to be static only leads to decay -- only leads to death.

[Gregory Koster]

Nope. The best link in TM's potpourri was Samuelson, detailing how the young (under 35) are being fed into the wood chipper. He's right: their lives are going to be a good deal bleaker than their elders. Yet who are their leaders? Such ninnies as Ezra Klein, who warble "Vote for The Once and everything will be all right." Such comedy is worth at least a snicker. Better that than the gloom of MDr or Old Lurker or Pagar. Logically their gloom should have them packing and heading west to Australia. Do you think they are doing this? Nope, they are just drinking deep of adolescent Weltschmertz, which porvides a hell of kick when going down. Watch out for the hangover.

Pagar's gloom is unfounded. Exempli gratia: Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal was a government redistribution program as was Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. In their times, both were attacked as precursors of socialism, with much justice. If Pagar's thesis is true, Ronald Reagan should never have been elected. He was. This inconvenient truth will doubtless be bawled down by the gloom and doomers. Like Bullwinkle, they've failed to pull the Doomsday rabbit out of the hat again and again, but "This time for sure!" No. The Once's tuition is going to be thrown on the future, and that bill will be enormous. The apocalypse is not going to come from "communism" taking over the country. How are the grim portents to be prevented? I don't know in detail; if I did I'd be in much higher place. Yet it is odd that JOM has so many gloom lovers while at the same time adoring Sarah Palin. There's someone with a great deal of faith in the future. What would she say to the gloom mentioned above?

Another example: Charlie Martin, a JOM ornament, if dead wrong about how the US should fight wars, has written at least two fine articles on the explosion of the global warming bunkum. I haven't paid much attention to this issue, figuring Good Al's lifestyle was proof enough that AGW was fraudulent. Thanks to Charlie, I now have much more solid proof. Did he give way to gloom? Hardly. JOMers shouldn't either.

Stick around to laugh at the collapse of the Kleins of the Left. Cleaming up the mess is going to give you a better idea of what the "Greatest Generation" had to live through. Even if we are doomed, meeting Armageddon with laughter is a more stylish way of going out than adolescent Weltschmerz.

[Neo]

In some sense the Democrats may be in a damned if you don't or damned if you do position on health care.

The latest PPP Poll has the Democrats screwed to a fence post.

[Frau Erntedankfest]

Angellight seems to have drawn the short straw. "The Party of No&Fear"(2000-2008) wins elections and, presto! chango! they become "Agents of Change (2009)." Sorry, some of us watch and remember.

Kaus sez, "BS sometimes works to pass legislation. But it's still BS. ... "

[Frau Erntedankfest]

From Neo's link to Rasmussen:
"Other polling shows that 47% trust the private sector more than government to keep health care costs down and the quality of care up. Two-thirds (66%) say an increase in free market competition will do more than government regulation to reduce health care costs."

Didn't BHO say the Republicans will do what they are told? How can there be criticisms?

[Old Lurker]

GK: "...who warble 'Vote for The Once and everything will be all right.' Such comedy is worth at least a snicker. Better that than the gloom of MDr or Old Lurker or Pagar..."

Glad YOU think it's a comedy, Pal.

Go do some study in economics, in history, and the rise and fall of other great countries and enterprises. Go out and make some investments, take some risks, create something of value, pay millions and millions in taxes, get lecturered on how you have not done enough so even more needs to be taken from you, and then explain to us all why this is just a passing show...a comedy, perhaps.

[glasater]

The problem with the D's passing any kind of healthcare legislation is that the taxes will begin immediately. The insurance and supposed care will not kick in until 'way down the road.
If people do not see the fraud undertaken now--they surely will in a short period of time.

[MDr]

"Logically their gloom should have them packing and heading west to Australia"

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get into Australia, other than as a tourist? Thought not.

[glasater]

Hey Old Lurker-

Just heard Mr Rick Santelli--the bond reporter on CNBC--say that watch who buys the bonds six to nine months down the road. Whether it's domestic or outside is the dynamic to watch according to RS.

[JM Hanes]

Gregory:

You're actually trying to use Roosevelt & Johnson to argue that current cynicism is misguided? They laid foundation stones that even the sainted Reagan couldn't fix. I don't doubt that some fears are overblown, but sitting around in a comfy chair laughing is hardly an adult improvement. It's not as though JOM lacks for humorists to lighten the mood.

[Pagar]

"Pagar's gloom is unfounded."

Would you care to point out where you came up with that. I've got a feeling it comes out of the 10:59 post. That post says nothing about Reagan being elected. What it says to me, is that if one elects a Democrat, one gets the same cookie cutter result what ever the name of the person elected. IMO, the fact that 60 Senators voted for the obscenity that they are calling Healthcare Reform when it is really just another healthcare fraud proves that.

"Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal was a government redistribution program as was Lyndon Johnson's Great Society."

One of the lasting programs of the New Deal was Social Security. Ask anyone who is paying into Social Security today, what they think the chances of them getting their money returned to them are? Or one could ask the creditors of Bernard Madoff what they think the chances of them getting their money back from Mr. Madoff? I can tell you what my daughter and my granddaughter think their chances of getting SS money are; Slim and None. None of my great grandchildren wanted to comment on the subject.

But don't bother asking the Madoff bankruptcy trustee, his 37.5 million is pretty much in in the bag. LUN

I don't mean to project gloom and doom, but today is 23 Nov 2009. We keep hearing about the 2010 elections. Every house seat in the nation is open. How many of them have Republican candidates lined up? Some Senate seats are open. Everyone that is open is known, but how many have Republican candidates? We keep talking about voter fraud, but not one single thing has been done to prevent it, in a meaningful way, that I am aware of.
In Washington State in 2004, the Sound Politics blogger identified numerous cases of voter registration fraud. What happened?
The Democrat controlled Washington legislature came up with ways to prevent people from finding like cases of voter fraud by making it harder to trace.
No meaningful work has been done to make political campaigns affordable. A few days ago there was a report that almost half the members of the House and Senate were millionaires. Today we have stories of the Web saying that the Louisiana Senator who got $300 million to change her vote on healthcare is going to sponsor a fund raiser for Sen Reid who got her the $300 million dollars that she is so proud of. As long as Reps and Senators can get money from outside their voting area any seat can be bought.
IMO, my posts are designed to inform and motivate: for those who feel they don't do that I suggest just skipping them. But once again, we're sitting here attacking each other because of us using different
methods of trying to reach the same goal, IMO. At least, I feel most of us at JOM want the same goal.

[Old Lurker]

Heck, JMH...JOM is where I come to get cheered up! Dreaming of life on the island makes me smile.

Then again, not appreciating that Roosevelt and Johnson, not to mention Wars on Poverty and Inter Generational Ponzi Schemes were but stepping stones on the path toward the cliff IS pretty funny.

Glasater, I'm surprised RS didn't add "...if anybody is still buying them..."

[Pagar]

Last Friday, we heard a report that
Mr Rick Santelli was going to comment about the Global Warming fraud and how it would affect the market. Later, I'm prtetty sure I saw a report saying his company would not allow him to comment.
Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that GE (IMO) has more to lose over the Global Warming fraud than a whole lot of large companies.

[Old Lurker]

"At least, I feel most of us at JOM want the same goal."

Pagar, he explained somewhere else that he had voted for Al Gore over GWB because he disliked "crony capitalism". As all of the goals of Al Gore were known to all then as now, by his vote he proves to be the exception to your statement about most JOMers.

[km]

Will Obamacare cover treatment if your Orszagism lasts longer than four hours?

[Rick Ballard]

OL,

The "Met A Thousand Consecutive Weekly Payrolls Club" ain't particularly selective about membership but it's a helluva lot smaller than the 'I read a fascinating account and wish to force my opinion before you' club. The opinions of the members of both clubs have value of course, just as every electron used in generating all the pixels on this page have value. It's a shame to see so many of them wasted.

I'm pretty sure that Maidenform Lane XXII will be the purchaser of the last trillion or so of Turbo Timmy's "Best Deals Evah!!" bond auctions in the spring. I wonder what GS's cut for selling the junk to Uncle Ben will be?

[Old Lurker]

"I wonder what GS's cut for selling the junk to Uncle Ben will be?"

Ha! Like we'll ever know! It has been tempting to close one's eyes and invest in/with GS, but I keep having this image of being the parasite glued to the shark's back...

[Gregory Koster]

Old Lurker, your Maureen Dowd genes are showing. The explanation for my 2000 vote was a dislike of Geo. W.' crony capitalism habits AND the judgement that the 2000 economy was going downhill, why not let Good Al take the rap for that?

What's your answer to our current troubles besides your 9:13 AM "We.Are.So.Screwed." Are you giving up? Why? This nation has passed through far more serious times than these. It didn't pass through because the citizenry moaned that they were screwed, all was doomed, and quit. How do you think the US got through the Civil War, for example?

JMH, you are quite right that Reagan could not reverse the Roosevelt/Johnson creations. But what's your point? Do you think that the US is doomed, that it's downhill all the way and then the final, terrifc smash? I don't think so. You are acting on your convictions by registering domain names. If we are to conclude that Pagar's 10:59 and 5:36 are the sole truth, what's the good of anything? Pagar refuses to follow the logic of these posts: the Democratic party is beyond hope. Ergo, the only solution is an election to get the GOP in, and then ban the Democratic party, because it is hopeless. I think Pagar would violently reject this interpretation. But those posts don't have anything beyond All is Lost. What, for example, do those two posts have to offer a Democratic voter who lives in the 1st district of Washington state, city of Chehalis? It's far from a Prussian Blue district. But what do those two posts offer as an alternative to Once worship, as rages in, Lynnwood or Ballard, farther north?

I reject the "We Are So Screwed" notion. We certainly are buying ourselves a lot of trouble, and mortgaging our future. But given a democratic system, there's nothing to be done, save to try to reverse the results in 2010 and beyond. That is what the Tea Partiers are trying to do, and I think you are moving in that direction. I think hearty laughter is a good antidote to gloom. God knows, The Once and his pretensions provide many targets. You say that JOM has many humorists, but they are certainly missing in this thread. You may also recall Pofarmer's recent outburst, saying that bullets in the eyes were what's needed. No. I reject that notion completely, and reiterate that the Daily Kos and the Democratic Underground are the place for that nonsense.

MDr, like Old Lurker you think that I can be refuted by being denounced as an imbecile. Shucks, my vote for Gore in 2000 does a better job than anything you have lobbed my way so far. Go back to your 1:56 PM in this thread. That's "All is Lost" with a vengeance. If you truly believe what you wrote, shouldn't you be considering emigration? Yet your response is how difficult it is to get into Australia. Is it fair, then, to say that you think all is lost, and there's nothing to be done but moan like a kid's who has eaten two pounds of cookie dough? The Tea Partiers are resisting, with some success. So is Sarah Palin. Are they wrong to resist? Both are noted for general good humor; the "Kill Obama" style of protest seems confined to the fringes, and is likely the result of provacateurs acting in concert with their media allies.

If Obamacare passes, what are you going to do? Emigrate? Resign from the nation and spend your time soaking in 200 proof gloom? You can refute me by yelling how stupid I am, but the questions I raise won't go away so easily, unless you fancy the MS-LSD style of advocacy. All I'm trying to do is see clearly and understand, with the aim of stopping any more Gore 2000 mistakes. The crowd here at JOM seems above the average, and I've profited by reading and even asking questions. How did your 1:56 help you?

[boris]

"and I've profited by reading and even asking questions."

Can't speak for everone here but it's likely that some agree that we have profited greatly from your lectures, scolding and pearls of wisdom.

[Rick Ballard]

OL,

As far as I can tell, GS has colluded with four other biggies (including Zombieciti) to form SUPERZOMBIE through the use of interest rate swaps (bigger and even better than the C redit D efault S waps sold by ZombieAIG). It's a mutual suicide pact that is supposed to scare the gov into not declaring the entire swaps market to be against public interest and therefore unenforceable. The implicit threat will probably 'work' but I agree that there would be much more honor in investing in a chain of brothels employing underage orphans.

[Old Lurker]

GK, no, I have not moved to Australia. The nearby Cook Islands, however are a very useful location to locate trusts and LLC's when one is moving capital away from the US so it can be invested in more capital friendly corners of the world. While others have been doing this for years (did not the Kennedy's use Tahiti for their trusts?), lately more and more plain old hard working capitalists are concluding that a broader global diversification is warranted for safeguarding their "wealth". And while the headlines do focus on the latest difficulties in using numbered Swiss bank accounts of movie-lore for hiding nest eggs, the formerly "safest place in the world to invest" image of the US is no longer that, largely because of erosion of the sense of personal responsibility here losing out to the gimme gimme mentality that has taken hold. Jane said it best with her "some work for a living and some vote for a living" comment before. You seem not to appreciate the cumulative impact of changes since FDR and how that cancer might be difficult to escape. What was that old saw about "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations?"

[Ignatz]

--Old Lurker, your Maureen Dowd genes are showing.--

Nobody, least of all a gent of OL's discriminating taste, would like to get into Maureen Dowd's genes.
I'm pretty sure that's why she's always such a grouch.

[bad]

Old Lurker, if you had a son between 18 and 25, I would be dragging my daughter by the hair to meet him, assuming he was a chip off the Old Lurker block.

[Old Lurker]

Rick, ask Larry Summers how those swaps worked out for him when he ran Harvard.

Ignatz...now just exactly how do you suggest I get THAT image out of my head. Shame on you!

Bad, if I had a son, it would be an honor to arrange that meeting! BTW, your being here is on my list of Thanksgiving prayer credits this year.

[bad]

Thank you, Old Lurker. I am blessed beyond belief to have such wonderful friends who pray for my family and me. It means the world to us and is another reason to have a fabulous Thanksgiving.

[bad]

...and lots of pie.

[PD]

The problem with the D's passing any kind of healthcare legislation is that the taxes will begin immediately.

I'm still wondering how, if they're paying for six years of program with ten years of taxation, they're going to pay for the decade after that when the same trick can't be used.

[SWarren]

Matt,

Excellent column you wrote.
My question is that given those "uncontitutional issues with the healthcare bill, what are the chances of it going to the Supremes? Who would bring suit? IMO the SC is our last bastion as long as it remains 5-4 (if we can count on Kennedy). I pray everyday for the safety of those five Justices.

[pagar]

"Who would bring suit?"

Obviously, it would be the same as the Birth Certificate story. No American would have standing in the court to challenge government healthcare. Only if you could find an illegal alien who had been deprived of his right to have free American health care at the expense of the American taxpayer,-------Wait --That will never work. You won't find any. They will all have been granted citizenship by the time this gets to court.

[Pofarmer]

I'm still wondering how, if they're paying for six years of program with ten years of taxation, they're going to pay for the decade after that when the same trick can't be used.

Doesn't matter, it will be the next administrations fault.

[Old Lurker]

"Doesn't matter, it will be the next administrations fault."

Finally Bush gets a break...

[magnesium]

The Health care reform plan has created many serious and funnier discussions.I think the reform plan soon to be amend or reject to come over of all the controversies.

[anduril]

Jay Cost has an interesting big picture view of the Health Care debate: How Far Will Democratic Leaders Go?. His major point is that some of the compromises that the Democratic leaders appear willing to make to pass Obamacare challenge the Party's larger "philosophical framework." This is especially true re Medicare cuts. He writes:

"The evolving health care proposal does not feel like something I'd expect the Democratic Party to produce. Instead, it is starting to seem like something drafted by a bizarre hybrid of the old Federalist Party and the British Labor Party."

Unspoken is the idea that the Democratic strategy for passing Obamacare may involve cutting off the branch that they've been edging out along since the Roosevelt era.

[anduril]

Looking for bad news? Look no further:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/story/print?guid=7BB9ED9D-C05E-4C3D-A016-11109F727929

Holiday fear Commentary: Economy appears to be losing steam

By Irwin Kellner, MarketWatch

PORT WASHINGTON, N.Y. (MarketWatch) -- It's beginning to look a lot like a "W."

After logging the fastest rate of growth in two years last quarter, the economy appears to be losing steam during the current period.

This is no big surprise; the consensus of forecasters surveyed weekly by MarketWatch has long been expecting slower growth during the fourth quarter.

Their latest projections call for a growth rate of 2.5% -- a percentage point slower than the government's preliminary take on the previous quarter. (See Economic Calendar.)

There's plenty of evidence that our panel may be right -- if not a tad optimistic. For one thing, total consumer spending -- the biggest single chunk of the economy -- fell in September for the first time in four months and by the biggest percentage since December 2008.

In October, retail sales excluding autos grew 60% slower than they did during the previous month, while preliminary reports for November show that consumer sentiment unexpectedly fell.

If you look closely you can see why consumers are pulling in their horns.

And there's plenty more...

[anduril]

Looking for good news? Look no further:

A Tale of Six Counties -- By: Jim Geraghty

from National Review Online

Consider these six numbers: 62, 53, 54, 60, 60, 53.

Those numbers are the percentage of voters who supported Barack Obama last year in Westchester and Nassau Counties in New York, Bergen and Middlesex Counties in New Jersey, Fairfax County in Virginia, and Bucks County in Pennsylvania, respectively.

Now, here are the percentages of the vote that the top-of-the-ticket Democratic candidates got in each of those counties this year: 43, 48, 48, 44, 49, 45.

[anduril]

Since there's been so much said about the mammogram issue, it seems relevant to link this: Major U.S. Study Shows Oral Contraceptives Increase Breast Cancer Risk 44 %. It would therefore seem that, if not for the fact that so many perfectly healthy women had been persuaded to ingest powerful cancer causing drugs, the mammogram thing wouldn't be as big an issue as it is. It seems the pushing of oral contraceptives on women is another example of agenda driven "science" that ill serves humans.