The Prescient Joe Biden

The NY Times Magazine fawns over Joe Biden in their latest cover story.  But for some reason they don't cite as an example of his political acumen his success in predicting the collapse of Obama in the polls.  Here is Joe from October 2008:

I promise you, you all are gonna be sitting here a year from now going, 'Oh my God, why are they there in the polls? Why is the polling so down? Why is this thing so tough?' We're gonna have to make some incredibly tough decisions in the first two years. So I'm asking you now, I'm asking you now, be prepared to stick with us. Remember the faith you had at this point because you're going to have to reinforce us."

"There are gonna be a lot of you who want to go, 'Whoa, wait a minute, yo, whoa, whoa, I don't know about that decision'," Biden continued. "Because if you think the decision is sound when they're made, which I believe you will when they're made, they're not likely to be as popular as they are sound. Because if they're popular, they're probably not sound."

It certainly appears that Obama's reported decision to send more troops to Afghanistan won't be popular with his base.  Per Gallup, 57% of Democrats think we should be reducing our troop commitment there.

The Times also ignores their own reporting of two weeks back by retelling the story of Biden and the Kurds with no mention of Biden adviser Peter Galbraith, who made millions advising the Kurds.

Comments

[Dave (in MA)]

Remember the faith you had at this point

Somehow that seems to have slipped my mind.

[bgates]

"There are gonna be a lot of you who want to go, 'Whoa, wait a minute, yo, whoa, whoa, I don't know about that decision',"

You know, I have said that a lot. Biden's a genius!

[srp]

JB's mouth is like a wormhole to an alternate universe where embarrassment is the primary constituent element.

[Jack is Back!]

Maybe Joe can explain how you go from 4.5% to 8.5% faster than Usain Bolt.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, that was Bush driving that train.

[Jack is Back!]

You mean this Joe Biden?

[SteveP]

Remember the faith you had at this point

I put my faith in God, not politicians, especially ones with messianic delusions.

[Thomas Collins]

Happy Thanksgiving! My youngest, now a college junior, is having a high school marching band reunion in the living and dining rooms (she was drum major of the Needham High School Marching Band as a high school senior). There are about 20 twentysomethings chattering about their lives and loves after high school. After the gathering, they will be attending the traditional Thanksgiving Day Needham-Wellesley football game. It's great to see another generation marching into adulthood and responsibility (some, of course, especially the ones in the military, already have had quite a lot of adulthood and responsibility). They deserve a better world than the one the Baby Boomers will be leaving them, but I am sure they'll do fine.

[Old Lurker]

It is somehow appropriate to have a Joe Biden thread open on Turkey Day.

[anduril]

What should we be thankful for today? First and foremost, IMO: the truth. We're seeing it finally re AGW.

Here's an informative piece from New Zeal: Obama File 91 Barack Obama and the Socialist Healthcare Scamsters. New Zeal has done yeoman work in documenting Obama's background and associates.

Here's one most of you won't want to read: The Cost of War, but war isn't free and modern war doesn't come cheap for a modern civilization. This is why I keep saying: we have to pick smart ways and means to fight this war. The more immediately gratifying approach may not be the long term smart way.

[Jim Ryan]

Plenty of stuff at WUWT. NZ, Australia, etc.

[centralcal]

O.L.: Happy Thanksgiving! I had exactly the same thought as you about turkeys and Biden!

[Old Lurker]

Happy Thanksgiving to you too CC!

[Rob Crawford]

I don't really care for seeing Biden compared to a turkey. For one thing, turkeys are useful. For another, Ben Franklin wanted the turkey to be our national bird -- I doubt he'd have wanted Biden to be ANYTHING but a convenience store clerk.

[Joseph Brown]

From one Joe, me, to another Joe, Joe Plugs, I've got my loins girded more than ever. Whatever the hell girding loins is.
Does that fit in with turkey?

[hit and run]

I'm still loving http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20091124_Biden__at_Committee_of_70_fundraiser__puts_positive_spin_on_economic_outlook.html>this piece of Biden wisdom:

"We may be wrong," Biden said. "But the point is, we believe in what we're doing."

Off we go...

Two men were standing on opposite ends of a frozen lake,each heading out to go ice fishing.

One man,having paid attention to recent weather and seeing others out on the ice ahead of him,said to himself,"it's been cold enough for the lake to be frozen enough to support my weight,and I see others have made it out there,but it's pretty risky stepping out on the ice. What if I fall through?" Scared,he began inching out on the lake slowly,step by step,being relieved that the ice supported his weight.

He made it out to his spot on the lake,and spent the day fishing.

On the other side of the lake,exposed to much more sun and with signs warning that the ice was too thin for fishing,the other man turned to his son and said,"We may be wrong,but the point is,we believe in what we're doing",and headed out onto the ice without any doubt that the lake would hold them.

Even as he heard the cracks beneath his feet,even as he felt the ice give a little more with each step,he continued to remind his son that the point is they believe in what they were doing.

They drowned.

[MarkJ]

Jack is Back,

Cute, but that doesn't get Screamin' Barry Obama off the hook. After all, Mr. "Lower the Seas" was the very guy who coolly and confidently announced all would be well after the porkulus bill passed. Ten months on, we're facing a probable 20% U6 unemployment rate and Obama is more and more resembling an Incredible Two-Headed Transplant of Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter.

Ruminate on that, Jacko.

[Pagar]

If you go to Antiwar.com you'll get such brilliant statements as
"Numbers don't lie.

Remember that is after a week of finding out that every number that leftists have ever produced in the global warming fraud is a lie.

We also see such brilliant statements as:

"Contractors in Kuwait paid $15 million in bribes to three US Army procurement officers between 2004 and 2007 to obtain the enormous contracts to supply bottled water to American forces. "

Every person in American just sat through the most amazing confession ever seen, A US Senator standing there saying, words to the effect that---the bribe wasn't $100 million, it was $300 million and I'm proud of it. Not included in that figure was the bribes given to the other leftist Senators. Democrats are only worried about bribes they don't receive.

No American who has ever been to war, thinks that wars are cheap either in terms of lives or money. But IMO, the cost in lives of Americans and the American dollar amounts are always increased when the politicians get involved. IMO, the number of American/Allies lives lost always increases tremendously when leftist politicians get involved.

I'm not in favor of war. I have known thousands of military. We will be eating dinner with some of dozens of them in a few hours, some of them I have known for over 50 years. Never have I talked to one who was in favor of war, for war's sake. We are in favor of defending America, from enemies within and without our nation.

Reading articles on the price of war is not a problem. The price is much higher for the ones out there fighting it and their families back home, than it is for the politicians talking about it.

May God bless our troops! Especially under the conditions our politicians are forcing on them.

[EBJ]

Hey Thomas Collins,

I'm Needham High School class of 1977 myself. Small world.

Beat Wellesley!

East Bay Jim

[ROA]

H&R Beautiful!

[Jane]

Wow - 2 Needham High grqads. I'm impressed.

[Pagar]

My 12:12 PM should have mentioned that the Antiwar site is the LINK in a 10:18 AM post.

[clarice]

I'm thankful for Hit and Jane and you all.

[Mike Myers]

Joe Biden is like a stopped clock. By the hands of providence, he's right two times each day. Every other time on each of those days, he's wrong.

[laura]

Pagar,
As the wife of a Navy vet, who is spending yet another Thanksgiving sans husband I find Anduril's admonishments about the cost of war particularly annoying. My husband is having Thanksgiving in the DFAC in Baghdad where he has spent most of the last 5 years as either a US government employee or a contractor. The costs to our family have been enormous and we have most certainly not gotten rich.

I will tell you the NGO's who put out tripe like anti-war don't have a clue. From Iraq, Sudan, Kosovo, Macedonia, and Haiti my husband has witnessed the enormous self importance and ineffectiveness of one NGO after another as they create and prop up corrupt third world governments as they build compounds and caste systems. I'd like to see how much that has cost the world.

Hi Jane.

[Dave (in MA)]

I graduated 1 town over, in Dedham.

[Old Lurker]

Happy Thanksgiving you guys.

I am grateful for all of you.

OL

[anduril]

laura, you say "I find Anduril's admonishments about the cost of war particularly annoying," but as far as I can tell you offer no explanation--what is so annoying about my "admonishments?" My guess is that you view Giraldi's comments about profiteering and corruption as a condemnation of all USG employees and contractors, but I do not do so (cf. my regular defense of USG workers in the intelligence field, which I would certainly extend to the defense field) and I don't belief that Giraldi (himself an ex USG employee) intends his remarks to be taken in that way.

As for your presumption--or so it seems to me--that I have any brief for NGO's, nothing could be further from the truth. Nor do I believe that anything I've ever written supports such a presumption.

[Jane]

Happy Thanksgivng Laura - so nice to see you. I bet your girls are a lot more helpful than my crazy family.

YIKES!

[narciso]

God, god Anduril, Giraldi, one of the VIPsers
that Hersh retains as his sources, who came close to suggesting in an American Conservative piece. that the Mossad had at least inadvertent complicity with 9/11. The
thing about anti war, is that is their motivation about our side, of the other side
they could care less, whether it was the Nazi during the Molotov pact years, the Communists and fellow travellers in the Cold War, or the Salafi philes of this last decade.

[Thomas Collins]

EBJ, all of my three kids are Needham High School grads. I'll tell them that a JOMer is a NHS grad. Dave(inMA), we live close to Dedham (off 135 across from DeFazio Field in Needham).

[Frau Erntedankfest]

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all here at JOM. I hope our host is enjoying his day. Jack, are you really back?
When the U.S. toppled Sadam Husein, the NGOs I read about then did not help our cause . James Fallows quoted them to prove his point that the Bush administration was dumber than sawdust.

[laura]

You are correct Anduril, I offered no explanation simply the statement that we are living the costs. I believe that we enter war or at least should with our eyes wide open and either we except the costs or don't. I don't remember all your comments regarding USG employees and contractors, but I would say that they are no different from other slices of life. Good and bad, some succumb to greed and corruption but most don't. These are all part of the costs of war and life for that matter. The bellyaching after wards is annoying.

[anduril]

Giraldi ... came close to suggesting in an American Conservative piece. that the Mossad had at least inadvertent complicity with 9/11.

narciso, do you have a link? Is this the article that you're referring to: The Spy Who Loves Us?

Giraldi's suggestion in that article--which he characterizes as "speculation"--is that Israeli agents were in the US immediately preceding 9/11 and that, based on geographical movement and proximity, it is possible that they may have beeen surveilling at least some of the 9/11 hijackers. That isn't totally implausible, given that I've read elsewhere (sorry, don't recall source) that the Israeli government warned the USG not long before 9/11 that something big was in the offing but that they weren't sure what. The US intelligence community was also looking at some of the hijackers--that's simply fact.

I don't see how any of that is an allegation of complicity on the part of Israel--"close" is a relative term, of course, but to me it doesn't even seem "close." As for "inadvertent complicity," I don't see how true complicity in any meaningful sense could be inadvertent.

[Cecil Turner]

I got to here before deciding Phil whatsisname is a dim bulb:

That ad hoc policy led to disaster when confronted by the Russian scorched earth response on his retreat from Moscow . . .

Yep, it was the policy (of acquiring supplies from local sources). If he'd just had contractors shipping food from France, all would've been just fine.

Moreover, an over-fascination with operational cost in warfare isn't generally wise. How much did 9/11 cost us? How much did defending against a repeat save? There's nothing more expensive than a second-rate defense.

[anduril]

You are correct Anduril, I offered no explanation simply the statement that we are living the costs. I believe that we enter war or at least should with our eyes wide open and either we except the costs or don't. I don't remember all your comments regarding USG employees and contractors, but I would say that they are no different from other slices of life. Good and bad, some succumb to greed and corruption but most don't. These are all part of the costs of war and life for that matter. The bellyaching after wards is annoying.

Isn't that the question? Did we enter this war with our eyes wide open? Some of us bellyached about the unrealistic expectations beforehand. OTOH, if things go to shit and we learn that our people who did the planning goofed up, we'd be damn silly not to bellyache--and to demand accountability.

[anduril]

Cecil, I think there's some question begging going on in your post. I'm not an advocate of a second-rate defense. I am an advocate of an overall strategy that we can afford. Now, I don't claim that our defense expenditures have bankrupted us, but I am saying that, as in the past, we have shown an unwillingness to tighten the belt at home to pay for our wars. That willingness or unwillingness has to be taken into account in the planning. This is a bipartisan issue--it involves the American people as a whole.

[Cecil Turner]

Cecil, I think there's some question begging going on in your post.

Yeah, right. I'm still trying to decide if your intermittent citing of fellow travellers spouting enemy propaganda reflects more than cluelessness.

. . . and to demand accountability.

Great idea. Why don't we start with all the intel weenies subverting our war aims and try 'em for treason?

[larry]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. G-d bless our troops.

Clarice: If you missed it, LUN for the Lombardi cartoon riots in Wisconsin.

[Jack is Back!]

Happy Thanksgiving from across the pond in Belgium where we celebrated with "mosselen met frites" and a copious amount of Duvel.

Better that the what these people in the Land of Lincoln and Barry have to endure.">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNf9t8R-ZWo'>endure.

[anduril]

fellow travellers spouting enemy propaganda

Cecil, I'm from the generation for which "fellow traveler" meant "Commie sympathizer." If you have something else in mind, please correct my impression so we won't be dialoging at cross purposes. However, if I got that right, who are these Commie sympathizers that I'm citing and what is the "enemy propaganda" that they're spouting? Please be specific.

As for subverting our war aims, I will confess to a certain amount of confusion as to exactly what those aims are. If one of our war aims is the ethnic/religious cleansing of Iraqi Christians from Iraq, we seem to be doing a bang up job--one which the "intel weenies" have been unable to subvert.

[Manuel Transmission]

Happy Thanksgiving to the JOM gang. I am suffering the 'shakes' from three weeks of laptop deprivation (busted hard drive) and no JOM on my iPhone (Chinese Internet blocking!). Of all the times to have the AGW/CRU mess break out.

Speaking of China, I'm really pissed that Ibama was so unoriginal as to have to follow me, first to Tokyo and then to Beijing. Can't he do anything right? (I know, stupid question.)

The worst was sitting in a formal luncheon banquet and having CCTV tuned to the press conference. I made a point to tell my hosts that I thought Ibama had a brain the size of a walnut. It is really embarrassing, knowing that they know we have the worst loser for a leader.

[boris]

I'm from the generation for which "fellow traveler" meant "Commie sympathizer."

Oh BS. The term wasn't retired when the USSR broke up and never officially restricted to communists.

Put away the Joe McCarthy card.

[anduril]

The term [was] never officially restricted to communists.

Okaaaaay. Then how am I to understand the term in this context--al Qaeda sympethizers? Exactly what are these people whom I cite being accused of? And please name names.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Russian TV news is covering the Climaquiddick entertainment, from Drudge, LUN.

[bad]

Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone!! I'm thankful for the JOM crowd and will be REALLY thankful when we eat. I'm starving.

Mr. bad offered to give me a hundred bucks if I'd say the Ricky Bobby prayer as grace.

(one of our guests is a minister)

I'm so tempted to at leat start with it...

[bad]

HEY Porch!! Hope your travel was safe and you saw the bad's wave in your direction.

[JM Hanes]

"Here's one most of you won't want to read..."

Apparently it's Pompous Presumption Day in some households.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone else who is counting their blessings!

[Cecil Turner]

Exactly what are these people whom I cite being accused of?

Here is what they say their aim was:

The 25-member group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, composed mostly of former CIA analysts along with a few operational agents, is urging employees inside the intelligence agency to break the law and leak any information they have that could show the Bush administration is engineering the release of evidence to match its penchant for war. [. . .]

VIPS say their appeals to CIA staff are an attempt to evoke another Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers, a top-secret study on U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

Leak classified information in support of enemy propaganda in wartime . . . you okay with that? I dunno if we could get a conviction, but the trial would be fun.

[narciso]

I was commenting on the general attitude of antiwar activisism, it is bad faith to argue
that I applied it to you. But if the shoe fits, wear it.

[Pagar]

"“We have to start showing progress within six months on the political side or military side or that’s it,” the U.S. defense official said."

LUN

The anti war groups must be so proud. It has now been announced: all their friends have to do is hold on for 6 months and they win. Just keep killing all the Americans they can for 6 months and they win.

Same situation we had in Vietnam, the American left tells the enemy killing American soldiers --just hold on We gonna make sure you win.

Same situation we had all the way through Iraq-the American left tells the enemy killing American soldiers -- Just hold on We gonna make sure you win.

Today it is the official Obama Administration policy. If the enemy killing American soldiers can hold on for 6 months, he'll win. The enemy knows exact what has to be done. The Americans fight under worse Rules every day.

[anduril]

Ah, just back from a wonderful Thanksgiving dinner. Big family affair, all my kids in town, etc.

Cecil, I agree it would be very hard to get a conviction. Notice how carefully the VIPSters framed their appeal:

any information ... that could show the Bush administration is engineering the release of evidence to match its penchant for war.

That sounds to me tantamount to an appeal for evidence that the administration lied to Congress. IOW, evidence of criminal wrongdoing. Would I be fine with that? Sure, within those parameters. And I hope you would be, too--it's the duty of every American citizen to report criminal conduct.

In support of my interpretation, I cite the first paragraph:

a small group of retired, anti-war CIA officers are accusing the Bush administration of manipulating evidence against Iraq in order to push war while burying evidence that could show Iraq's compliance with U.N demands for disarmament.

Those would be serious charges, if true. However, no one I know of has shown them to be true. Note, too, the use of the word "whistleblower" to describe the hoped for hero: "whistleblower" has a very technical meaning under the Whistleblower Statute, so they covered themselves well--they are not calling for anyone to break the law.

[anduril]

I was commenting on the general attitude of antiwar activism, it is bad faith to argue
that I applied it to you.

narciso, I have no idea whatsoever what you're referring to. I looked back through my posts and see nowhere any suggestion by me that you were casting aspersions on me personally or applying any of your criticisms to me.

[Cecil Turner]

That sounds to me tantamount to an appeal for evidence that the administration lied to Congress. IOW, evidence of criminal wrongdoing. Would I be fine with that? Sure, within those parameters.

You're stretching "manipulated" and "engineered" beyond its literal meaning, and the VIPSers made no such caveat (requesting only evidence of illegal acts). Further, leaking classified information relating to defense remains illegal in any event. There's also a clear moral issue with leaking defense related material in wartime (e.g., endangering troops).

The Pentagon Papers were both illegal and immoral (i.e., used for enemy propaganda purposes), and Wilson's leaks similarly could not legitimately be claimed as whistleblowing. That's their supposed inspiration and what they accomplished, and there's nothing legitimate about any of it.

IOW, if you're okay with that, I ain't okay with you. Cheers.

[anduril]

Cecil, you've switched ground here a bit. You grant that the VIPSters are "requesting only evidence of illegal acts"--which is my whole point: if they're asking for evidence of illegal acts, that's fine and within the law. In fact it's a duty to turn such evidence over to the relevant authority (they suggest Congress). Your statement that "leaking classified information relating to defense remains illegal in any event" doesn't hold water. If the information in question is evidence of illegal acts and is turned over to an authority that is authorized to handle such information (a Congressional oversight committee which, under the VIPSters' presumption, was victimized by being misled with regard to that information), then the "leaker" is not acting against the law and is protected under the Whistleblower Statute.

However, you then go on to argue that Ellsberg's leaks were illegal. That's not what I was discussing and I'm not qualified to discuss the Pentagon Papers. The fact that the VIPSters draw that comparison is their problem as far as I'm concerned. I'm not bound by their fantasies in that regard.

BTW, you try to make it appear that I habitually appeal to the VIPSters. That is not actually the case. The only one of them that I have quoted or linked to (to the best of my recollection) is Giraldi. That began during Plamegate. Giraldi, while still in the CIA, was in a position to know about Plame's assignments in Athens and France. As I recall, I used his recollections as evidence to support my contention that Plame was not covered by the IIPA (Intelligence Identity Protection Act, or something like that). IOW, I used Giraldi in defense of Libby.

[anduril]

I refer one and all to the case of Sibel Edmonds, who "leaked" classified information to Congress and thus remains free as a bird under the Whistleblower Statute. What VIPS was suggesting was not illegal.

[narciso]

VIPser come from IPS, Raskin, Halperin,Klare,
all far left figures, that occasion find commonality with the Islamist, in Britain,
they comprise part of the Red Green alliance
that includes Galloway, Tariq Ali, et al.

[BR]

Oh, Melinda, THANK YOU for that link to the 11-25-09 Russian TV broadcast on Climategate. It sounds soooo good in Russian. And I loved the summing up halfway through: "They're f--cked!"

[boris]

"You grant that the VIPSters are "requesting only evidence of illegal acts"--

My interpretation of the sentence is the opposite of that one.

the VIPSers made no such caveat ... [where caveat = requesting only evidence of illegal acts].

Such differeneces in what seems like plain English calls into question the rest of the twisty and contrived support for BDS.

[Cecil Turner]

Cecil, you've switched ground here a bit. You grant that the VIPSters are "requesting only evidence of illegal acts"--

No. They make no mention of illegal acts. You've extrapolated that from "manipulated" and "engineered"; which is a non-sequitur. Which wouldn't make it right, anyway.

I refer one and all to the case of Sibel Edmonds, who "leaked" classified information to Congress and thus remains free as a bird under the Whistleblower Statute.

Leaking to Congress isn't leaking. It's making classified defense information public that's illegal (and immoral). And if Edmonds is your civics exemplar, there's no need to continue. Edmonds, Ellsberg and Wilson are scum, and ought (IMNSHO) to be in jail. If you're using them (or their fellow travellers) as authorities, I reject your arguments. (Because I don't take advice on how to win wars from people who at best don't care to win, and who may well be on the other side.)

[Sue]

"Because if you think the decision is sound when they're made, which I believe you will when they're made, they're not likely to be as popular as they are sound. Because if they're popular, they're probably not sound."

I miss Bush.

[anduril]

Edmonds...ought (IMNSHO) to be in jail.

How so? The DoJ's Office of the Inspector General concluded that

"many of her allegations were supported, that the FBI did not take them seriously enough, and that her allegations were, in fact, the most significant factor in the FBI's decision to terminate her services. …Rather than investigate Edmonds' allegations vigorously and thoroughly, the FBI concluded that she was a disruption and terminated her contract.”

What are you basing your opinion on? It sounds like there are people at the FBI who ought to be retaining counsel.

BTW, when you wrote: "Here is what they say their aim was" you weren't actually quoting them--you were quoting Fox News--which didn't offer a direct quote in the section that you quoted. So you should have written something like: "Here is how Fox News characterized their aims."

[Cecil Turner]

What are you basing your opinion on? It sounds like there are people at the FBI who ought to be retaining counsel.

Really? What for? Firing Sibel Edmonds? As if she's not a security risk? You realize you're talking about the founder of the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition, right? The organization that gave us this little gem:

Bush Secretly Lifted Some Limits on Spying in U.S. After 9/11, Officials Say
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.

Again, if you're okay with that, I'm not okay with you.

So you should have written something like:

Yeah, right. Unless you're claiming Fox mischaracterized their statement, despite years going by and no complaints from the VIPS/NSWBC crowd, I think the FOX description can be considered fair (especially considering Ellsberg was a charter member of NSWBC).

[anduril]

Cecil, you're really wacky. My views on National Security law have been expounded here and elsewhere in great detail--I have no need to rely on the views of these or any other people, nor do I feel any need to defend anyone else's views unless I specifically endorse them. If you want to misrepresent my views, by trying to associate my views with those of others which I haven't embraced in any way, I can't help that--it's your personal problem.

Sibel Edmonds' problems with the FBI began when she suggested that hiring a Pakistani national whose father was a high ranking official in the ISI just might be a bad idea--that, and other FBI translators having ties to persons associated with lobbying organizations for a foreign power (Turkey), which organizations and persons were under investigation. OIG looked into the matter and concluded that many of her concerns were substantiated and had not been handled adequately. IOW, the real security risk was the failure of internal security at the FBI. OIG also found that Edmonds was fired based on these substantiated concerns which internal security officials at the FBI didn't want to address, probably based on PC concerns.

I believe that many of her factual assertions, with due allowance for the limits of her access, are warranted and reliable. What her political views may be is another matter entirely, and there's no reason why I should defend them unless I endorse them specifically. I form my views based on a wide range of input.

[narciso]

So, anduril, exactly which allegations were true, let's be really specific. Were the 'bribes' to Hastert by turkish interests,
or the Pakistani translator

[anduril]

narciso, I haven't heard what she's heard, and obviously the FBI isn't speaking about these things on the record. I'm interested in the fact that Hastert and Bob Livingstone were both hired by the Turkish org--former top figures in the House. The connection with Marc Grossman (who appears to be at least as slippery as Armitage), which came up during Plamegate, is also interesting given the trajectory of his career. What seems beyond doubt is that the FBI was investigating this Turkish org. That can't be done without articulating reasons. Turkish attempts to influence US policy through contacts with US officials and legislators would seem to provide a reason. These are things worth looking at.

[Cecil Turner]

If you want to misrepresent my views, by trying to associate my views with those of others which I haven't embraced in any way, I can't help that--it's your personal problem.

So you're not defending the VIPSters or NSWBC types? Okay, then we don't have a problem. I think I claimed above that they're not reliable sources, and that citing 'em as authority was faulty, not that you supported 'em. (However if you do support 'em . . .)

Sibel Edmonds' problems with the FBI began . . .

That's really not the point, is it? It's when she decided to charter a clearing house for classified information that could be used to support enemy propaganda that I began having a problem with her. I'd hope most Americans got a bit miffed with her at about the same time.

[CrypticGuise]

Joe Biden is the epitomy of corrupt inside-the-beltway politiskunk who gets away with his stupid remards as he and his family become increasingly wealthy because of his criminal activity. If he wasn't a Senator he'd be in jail for what he's accomplished.

[Hmmm]

Politiskunk of the politiscape?

[B Olson]

NYT did a great job. The article was 8000 words in length and did not commit to fawning over the vice president, it covered greatness and the not so great...why? Because Joe Biden is not a perfect person and has never claimed to be. But it was a fascinating, slightly historical cover of a man few spend time learning about. It gave Biden a personality...which most would label very bright, likeable, and "unique" to say the least. Nonetheless, it was a great read into U.S. foreign policy and especially Biden's role in it. Real time issues and incidents explain why Biden is considered our second most powerful VP (he will become known as #1 as Cheney was never a VP) and said by many to stand in his own light when it comes to foreign policy. The fact that Obama has turned to consulting Biden often and in several areas because of his experience and his unusual honesty, actually pleases me. There is only so much a writer can place in an article...they will leave out information out of space constraint...this article was packed with details and decription that almost never reaches the written page. Information on Biden that has been covered ad nauseum, hashed and re-hashed numerous time before, was thankfully left out.

[bgates]

Thanks for stopping by, B Olson. Joe Biden was stupid even by Congressional Democrat standards, and the idea that he would serve as an elder statesman could only provoke derisive snorts from anyone who's been sober and awake at any point in the past 30 years, which of course excludes Obama and Biden, and apparently you, and millions of fools like you.