I Believe It Is Health Reform In Our Time

Ben Nelson has Harry Reid going like sixty.  Captain Ed of Hot Air figures out Nelson's sale price, but does he compare it to Mary Landrieu's $300 million "Louisiana Purchase"?  Cmon!

Comments

[Jose Guerra]

Sweet! Free top notch health care for all!!!!

[peter]

Doesn't everybody here want all Americans to have free health care?

Welcome to the Socialist States of America.

[bio mom]

Last night I heard someone say that healthcare will now become a utility regulated by the federal government. Somehow I don’t feel emotionally attached to my electric bill as I do to my healthcare!!! This is a travesty. Sum of the polls on RCP shows the public against 31 to 58. But these creeps could care less. May they all burn in hell.

[Jane]

I was at a Christmas party yesterday and a guy who sells health insurance was holding Court. He kept saying MA is so far ahead of everyone else because our insurers insure pre-existing conditions, blah blah blah. So I said: "I want 90 year olds to pay the same for life insurance as 20 years olds". No matter how he tried he could not understand that analogy.

He should run for Congress.

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

This will be a nice Christmas present for the extremely partisan fear-mongers that have taken control of the once decent GOP. No good faith and sympathy for those who have shown none.

Millions will be given the right to have an abortion, take a stronger stance against the bloated and subsidized insurance company tyrants when they get their care denied, demand explanations for price-jacking and also have their children protected - and there is nothing you people can do about it.

Why? Because the house is blue, the senate was blue enough, and Barack Hussein Obama is the president while John McCain ISN'T.

Will the dems get a drubbing in 2010? Of course, but now it seems they won't suffer a 1994-style setback. Just like Medicare, this new reform will soon become welded together with American society, impossible to remove.

[GMax]

Next I want a pony.

[Jim Ryan]

insurance company tyrants

You're so pissed off at businessmen who have no power over you which you don't give them, that you support a tyrannical government who, you admit, will have power over you from now on whether you like it or not. You are overjoyed at the growth of an untenable and bankrupt Medicare system. Why? Because you're pissed off. No reason.

Tyrannies arise because people are unable to think but only emote. Tyrants foment envy, and the ignorant fall in line. Republics fall because of it.

You even think that millions do not have the right to have an abortion now but will be given it by the government. That's how crippled your thinking is.

It will always be this way. There are people who protect liberty, and there are people like you. It's the way it is.

[GMax]

unable to think but only emote.

I do believe you have managed to bottle the essence of the Democrat Party today.

[Jim Ryan]

It's teh kleptocracy.

The leftist elite get rich by fomenting envy amongst their useful idiots, who get poorer and less free.

There is no such thing as leftism. There is only kleptocracy. If you believe it's a political philosophy, you're one of the useful idiots. There is no argument to support it. It is merely emotion and theft.

Meanwhile, conservatives give more to charity than "leftists," which we would predict if "leftists" never cared about poor people in the first place but only about power.

It's teh kleptocracy.

[Semanticleo]

"Doesn't everybody here want all Americans to have free health care?"

Characterize the issue as you wish, but the same landslide that booted your kind out wants the public option 9consistently in the 70 percentile since 6/09 and @ 77% currently)
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5ba17aa2-f1b9-4445-a6b8-62b9d1ba8693

You 23 percenters make a lot of noise but you are behind the populist 8-ball.

I agree with you on one point; shit-can this current bill, but then I transcend your defeatism and say; throw the lobbyists out and start over.

Semper Fidelis!

[Thomas Collins]

Axel Kaspar Edgren predicted:

"Will the dems get a drubbing in 2010? Of course, but now it seems they won't suffer a 1994-style setback. Just like Medicare, this new reform will soon become welded together with American society, impossible to remove."

You could well be correct, AKE. Now if you only will have the guts to acknowledge that innovations in health care in the US will decline and that such decline will affect all stratas of society.

Feed your delusions about statist health care today, AKE. I pray you'll never need an innovative treatment that an Ezekiel Emmanel type sitting on a federal health board will decide should not be available to you, or that you'll never need an innovative treatment that never developed because folks such as yourself slurped the tequilla of guaranteed health care for all and became so drunk you couldn't recognize that the guarantee is an illusion. Ask an elderly person waiting months and years in Britain for a hearing aid that is delivered up in a few weeks time in America.

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"You're so pissed off at businessmen who have no power over you which you don't give them"

Oh yes, insurance companies are bastions of decent producer-consumer relations and accountability... Face it - said companies have just as much or more clout in congress than voters do. And in many states, customers have nowhere else to turn. It's like socialism but flipped upside-down: corporatism. There is nothing decent, defensible or libertarian about the current system.

"that you support a tyrannical government who, you admit, will have power over you from now on whether you like it or not."

Governments are not intrinsically bad any more than corporations are. Frankly, the insurance companies are the ones who are already taking liberties and dominance over the people - the doomsday predictions about Washington somehow destroying liberty with this reform would be more concerning if they didn't come from the mouths who promised rose petals in Iraq and death panels from Obama... You people need to show some humility and look at your track record - you my be right, I just have no reason to assume you do.

"Tyrants foment envy, and the ignorant fall in line."

This reform isn't supposed to get everyone a flat-screen TV made out of biodegradable hemp. It's supposed to deal with the fact that families declare bankruptcies even when they have paid their insurance premiums perfectly in order. Your analogy is historically important - but not applicable to the current situation.

"You even think that millions do not have the right to have an abortion now but will be given it by the government. That's how crippled your thinking is."

Abortions are no more controversial than appendectomies - Nelson had to bow down to that fact. A society that makes decision based on anything but reality weakens itself.

"It will always be this way. There are people who protect liberty, and there are people like you. It's the way it is."

None of my values or positions have ramifications that would topple or endanger a society where you and I could cohabit peacefully and independently. Have a glass of water, breathe deep, relax.

"I do believe you have managed to bottle the essence of the Democrat Party today."

Says the party of Beck, teabaggers, Palin and "YOU LIE!"

[Captain Hate]

Millions will be given the right to have an abortion

I think they already had that right, genius; but congratulations on thinking that you can finally get that sex-change operation.

[Captain Hate]

you my(sic) be right, I just have no reason to assume you do.

Nobody cares what you assume, jizzmop; why don't you try and convince Dean, Kos and Olbermann why this pandora's box of shit is so fucking great since they want no part of it. Btw is English your first language?

[Semanticleo]

"Nobody cares what you assume, jizzmop;"

"Blessed be the peacemakers"

[Jim Ryan]

you and I could cohabit peacefully and independently.

This is your benighted understanding of liberty? Not surprising from a man who thinks a woman doesn't have the right to get an abortion as long as she can't get someone else to pay for it using the full force of the IRS.

Frankly, the insurance companies are the ones who are already taking liberties and dominance over the people - the doomsday predictions about Washington somehow destroying liberty with this reform would be more concerning if they didn't come from the mouths who promised rose petals in Iraq and death panels from Obama...

Stupidest thing I've read in a couple of months. It's all posturing and bravado for you. You have no notion of political philosophy and support for it.

Good night, Axel. You may be safely ignored.

[Porchlight]

but the same landslide that booted your kind out wants the public option 9consistently in the 70 percentile since 6/09 and @ 77% currently)

Polls show that most people don't know what the public option is. Many people think it means health care at no cost to them. Wrong.

At any rate there is no public option in the Senate bill.

Just wait until the under 30 crowd, so hot for Obama in 2008, finds out they have to BUY health insurance and will be fined or jailed if they don't.

I agree with you on one point; shit-can this current bill

Yes. So what are you doing about it? Why are you here to gloat over the pending passage of a bill you agree sucks?

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"Now if you only will have the guts to acknowledge that innovations in health care in the US will decline and that such decline will affect all stratas of society."

Yes, because we stopped subsidizing a lopsided and stagnant system of business decisions, the holy entrepreneurs will no longer bless us with their hard work. They can all go to Galt's Gulch and cry themselves to sleep.

"I pray you'll never need an innovative treatment that an Ezekiel Emmanel type sitting on a federal health board will decide should not be available to you"

I've heard enough non-hypothetical stories of faithful customers being denied life-saving procedures by insurance company health boards to the point where I am numbed to your dire predictions.

"Ask an elderly person waiting months and years in Britain for a hearing aid that is delivered up in a few weeks time in America."

Oh yes, and Stephen Hawking would have been murdered in the NHS, wasn't that how the meme went?

"I think they already had that right, genius; but congratulations on thinking that you can finally get that sex-change operation."

Ah yes, because people who want to change their sex are somehow "bad" and insinuating that I am one reflects poorly on my character... Stay in high school, dude.

[Porchlight]

It's supposed to deal with the fact that families declare bankruptcies even when they have paid their insurance premiums perfectly in order.

Now those same families will declare bankruptcy because even though their pre-existing condition is covered, they won't be able to afford the jacked-up premiums.

Other families who are completely healthy won't be able to afford the premiums either. But you know what? They'll be SOL because the LAW says they can't drop their insurance. So which do you think they'll pay, the insurance premium or the mortgage?

[pagar]

My AARP fraud post should have been on this thread. But you can read the entire article on how AARP is fleecing America @big government.com

"It seems that with MediGap income rapidly reaching a billion dollars and with hundreds of millions of dollars in grants, the real constituency for AARP is not the vulnerable seniors they claim to service, but the Big Government fat cats who push cash their way and force through regulations that put their competitors out of business"

LUN

Amazing to see just from the comments already on this thread that there are still Americans who believe that Democrats would do anything that would benefit Americans.
It's never going to happen.

[Semanticleo]

"Polls show that most people don't know what the public option is."

Your source? Anyhew, most people know what they have now sucks, and they know it will get worse.

" Why are you here to gloat over the pending passage of a bill you agree sucks?"

Stop projecting your consternation. I'm not gloating, but rather, lamenting this
half-a-loaf that won't do shit until 2012.

I'm tired of the appeasement of Republicans who want NOTHING to change. Us the Nuclear Option. Screw Bi-partisanship. You can't negotiate with terrorists, or Refugees from the Human Race Republicans.

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"Now those same families will declare bankruptcy because even though their pre-existing condition is covered, they won't be able to afford the jacked-up premiums."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ov-pT1x-W8Y/Syc81xcp_4I/AAAAAAAADRs/8TXu1nI2OTA/s400/hcbill.png

[Jane]

half-a-loaf that won't do shit until 2012.

Wrong. Your taxes skyrocket immediately. There will be no new jobs. And the economy will worsen immeasurably.

No one but a complete idiot would want this bill.

[Porchlight]

Your source?

Lefty wunderkind Ezra Klein: Two thirds of Americans don't understand the public option

Also polls show that most people are satisfied with what they have:

Gallup: 80% satisfied with health care

The cost satisfaction lags behind the health care satisfaction at 61%, but that's still a solid majority. Even a majority of the uninsured are satisfied with their medical care.

Broadly, Americans are happy with the system as is.

Anyhew, most people know what they have now sucks, and they know it will get worse.

Oh yes, it will get worse if this thing passes. What is your source for "most people know what they have now sucks"?

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"Wrong. Your taxes skyrocket immediately. There will be no new jobs. And the economy will worsen immeasurably."

And Satan will take over the world.

[rse]

I believe what Nelson got is on page 328 out of the 383. It's a $100,000,000 for debt service, remodeling, and direct construction costs at an "academic health center at a public research university in the United States that contains a state's sole public academic medical and dental school".

Clearly only 1 facility meets the language and the money is for FY 2010.

If Nebraska qualifies as a "Frontier State" because at least 50% of its counties have a population of less than 6 per square mile, Nelson is getting help there too.

That discussion is in the vicinity of page 209.

This is being moved from Saturday morning

[rse]

It also looks to me like pages 241 and 242 are the ACORN and friends get to participate too provisions.

Who else qualifies as "organizations that are indigenous human resource providers in communities of color" ?

[Jane]

You are an idiot Axel. I suspect you have been told that before.

[Captain Hate]

Ah yes, because people who want to change their sex are somehow "bad" and insinuating that I am one reflects poorly on my character... Stay in high school, dude.

Where did I say that, Junior? Is that more of what you assume? Are you also assuming that you'll be able to get any elective surgery under this new world order that you're so happy about and which Dean, Kos, Olbermann and our resident troll don't want any part of? Good luck with that.

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"You are an idiot Axel. I suspect you have been told that before."

And you would presumably have elected Plain to be VP.

As to HC premiums:
"They're expected to increase overall, 10-13% for individuals, but that's before subsidies. More importantly, the insurance you're getting for that price is much better - no pre-existing conditions, no rescission, no lifetime or annual caps, a much higher set of minimum benefits, no sex discrimination (except for abortion, of course), and higher mandatory payouts."

[Porchlight]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ov-pT1x-W8Y/Syc81xcp_4I/AAAAAAAADRs/8TXu1nI2OTA/s400/hcbill.png

$9K/year for a family of four earning $54K a year is affordable? That's almost 20 percent of their income for health insurance! It is not much better than the projected status quo and doesn't take into account the degree to which premiums will increase.

By the way, you might consider providing the source for the numbers in that graph.

[clarice]

AKE, Tell Axelrod to send better trolls.

[Captain Hate]

And you would presumably have elected Plain to be VP.

You must get pretty excited when you post here because your misspellings are the sign of a sloppy or immature person. Maybe you should return to the online porn to calm down; nobody takes you seriously anyway.

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"That's almost 20 percent of their income for health insurance!"

Welcome to America.

"It is not much better than the projected status quo and doesn't take into account the degree to which premiums will increase."

Blame the blue dogs.

[Danube of Thought]

LUN for a guy whose thoughts about 2010 and 2012 are identical to mine.

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"AKE, Tell Axelrod to send better trolls."

Yes, the DNC fears the hard-working and hard-punching right-wing blogs to the point where they send out "operatives" to disrupt your pesky resistance against the socialist take-over.

"You must get pretty excited when you post here because your misspellings are the sign of a sloppy or immature person."

I did misspell, which is a first in the history of the internet. Funnily enough, misspelling "Palin" as "Plain" is still accurate and descriptive.

[rse]

Given the correlations of education and poverty levels with health care outcomes, how will it be possible to eliminate racial and ethnic disparities in health care services?

How open ended is the commitment to "assure improved health status of racial and ethnic minorities" and support that local community?

The Act authorizes "such sums as may be necessary" in EACH of the FY 's 2011 - 2016.

Wouldn't that commitment take us through 2 Presidential elections?

(Pages 241 - 242)

[clarice]

Apparently Nebraska also gets carved out of Medicaid payments forever.

[Old Lurker]

"Just wait until the under 30 crowd, so hot for Obama in 2008, finds out they have to BUY health insurance and will be fined or jailed if they don't."

And then wait and see if they are smart enough to spot the cost shifting implicit in the premiums set by the Senate. We geezers are awfully happy our insurance will be paid in part by the young newly insureds.

[Danube of Thought]

It is idle to assume that somehow the health insurance industry is peopled with individuals of low character, different in kind from ordinary Americans. (The same nonsense often arises with respect to those who work in the oil industry.)

The fact is that insurers are operating rationally in an environment that was created entirely by the US congress. Why is health insurance in America so permanently (and oddly) wedded to employment? Because the congress made it so.

Why is there a tax exclusion for employer-provided insurance, but no deduction for those purchasing individual policies? Because the congress made it so.

Why can't a New Yorker buy a more desirable policy at half the price from neighboring Connecticut? Because the congress made it so.

One thing we know for certain: from this day forward, every time an American is upset with what happens to him at the hands of a health insurer, his ire will be directed straight at the Democratic Party, and nowhere else. Then we shall see what we shall see.

[Jim Ryan]

Apparently Nebraska also gets carved out of Medicaid payments forever.

Which article has this bit of kleptocracy, Clarice?

DoT's link. Party of "hell no I'll take fiscal tenability and liberty instead."

[DebinNC]

You know that unfunded Medicaid expansion in the bill that governors are worried about? Via Politico, Nelson's deal includes taxpayers picking up the tab for Nebraska forever. This treating states differently based on their senator's eagerness to be bribed is sickening. What kind of horrible precedent is at work here? I don't want to pay for NE's future budget shortfalls when NC is already going the way of CA. UGH!!!

[Danube of Thought]

"...no pre-existing conditions, no rescission, no lifetime or annual caps, a much higher set of minimum benefits, no sex discrimination..."

You could bargain for precisely such a policy today, if that is what you want, and if insurers nationwide were allowed to offer you their policies. The congress has forbidden them to do so.

What you have now lost--probably forever--is your right to take your business elsewhere.

[rse]

Please don't confuse my stuff with Kaspar the not so-friendly interloper with the same avatar.

Also looks like they intend to make it increasingly difficult for companies to self insure. Every claim denial then is suspect.

Clarice - did you notice the change in the definition of intent on page 340?

[Danube of Thought]

As an added bonus, Keith Olbermann says he'll go to jail rather than purchase a mandated policy. Where can I buy a ticket for that happy event?

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"You could bargain for precisely such a policy today, if that is what you want, and if insurers nationwide were allowed to offer you their policies."

You know of anyone who has that kind of deal and isn't in the upper percentiles of income?

"What you have now lost--probably forever--is your right to take your business elsewhere."

That's something that couldn't be done anyway, if one lives in an oligopoly. What has been going on is an un-American subsidizing of a very aching system.

[pagar]

Has anyone found a single thing in the Healthcare fraud now before the Senate that will make healthcare better for any American?

IMO, the bill is designed to suck every dollar possible out of the American economy and bring the level of medical treatment in America lower and lower for everyonme.

[Old Lurker]

...and why did insurance companies go bankrupt when they were required to pay out 75% of their premiums to providers, not retaining enough for administration, R&D, marketing and profit? Because the congress made it so.

[Jane]

And you would presumably have elected Plain to be VP

I don't know "Plain" but he can't be as stupid as you or Joe Biden.

You'll get yours, and you will whine like a baby when it happens.

[Thomas Collins]

So, AKE, you've studied the British National Health Care Service and the American system and concluded that folks are denied care as much or more under the American system and that innovation in America isn't superior. C'mon AKE, come out of the closet. Don't you simply believe that governmental intrusion in this area is better for society? Lots of folks agree with you. Lots of folks prefer the supposed security of the bureaucratized, therapeutic state. It's OK. Some of us, who fully recognize that there is no perfect system, have concluded that a system geared toward the private sector working under a framework of rules (I'm sure you are steeped in your Hayek, AKE, so you no doubt know what I mean) is the superior system. Fine, we can debate that. But to belch on about private insurance companies denying care while ignoring what happens in socialized systems makes a mockery of you and your beliefs.

[verner]

Obama has bankrupted the country with trillion dollar deficits, promised to cripple American Industry over the bogus AGW mess, ruined the American health care system with socialized medicine, and done nothing to address staggering 10% unemployment.

Christ, I want to know who those 26% strongly approve people are over at Rasmussen daily tracking! Space aliens? Former KGB agents?

[Jim Ryan]

You know of anyone who has that kind of deal and isn't in the upper percentiles of income?

Axel, you really can't comprehend what DoT wrote, can you? The government has crippled the insurance industry's ability to compete for your business.

Even if you could understand it, you still don't have the ability to distinguish liberty from wealth. That is a very deep misunderstanding which any American should be embarrassed to have.

That's something that couldn't be done anyway, if one lives in an oligopoly.

Think harder. Government prevents you from taking your business elsewhere. You support it's doing so even more.

DoT:Because the congress made it so.

This is what kleptocrats do. They hamstring business until it hurts the majority of Americans. Then they step in to save them. They depend on there being enough Americans who know little and can infer even less.

First, the city makes a law that private lawn services have to put salt on everyone's lawn. Joe's lawn service is unable to keep your lawn green. Joe's too ignorant and stupid to follow all this. Finally, Joe supports city council's subsequent efforts to make private lawn services illegal and require all city residents to purchase city lawn service. Joe believes it when the city says the service will be cheaper and better. He trolls websites where people say that city council is anti-freedom and private lawn services are not. Joe says that just the reverse is true. Joe can't seem to grasp simple arguments to the contrary.

[Danube of Thought]

"That's something that couldn't be done anyway, if one lives in an oligopoly."

The only reason we live in fifty separate oligopolies is that the congress has established them. A one-page bill would have eliminated.

Google "federal employee health benefit programs" and surf around a bit. You will find over three hundred different policies among which those employees can shop--but you can't, because the congress won't let you.

[Danube of Thought]

...A one-page bill would have eliminated *them*

[Cecil Turner]

I love the fact that it takes an Act of Congress to terminate the "minority health office" or their directors:

(3) LIMITATION ON TERMINATION.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a Federal office of minority health or Federal appointive position with primary responsibility over minority health issues that is in existence in an office of agency of the Department of Health and Human Services on the date of enactment of this section shall not be terminated, reorganized, or have any of its power or duties transferred unless such termination, reorganization, or transfer is approved by an Act of Congress.

Good stuff. That'll improve health care (and hold down costs). Sure it will. And a few hopey-changey sinecures for the community organizers club.

[Danube of Thought]

Medicare denies 6.5% percent of claims, more than twice the average for private insurers and more than any individual insurer.

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"Don't you simply believe that governmental intrusion in this area is better for society? Lots of folks agree with you. Lots of folks prefer the supposed security of the bureaucratized, therapeutic state."

You start off by complaining about my supposed lack of sufficient learning, and then start to psychoanalyze people. You make as much sense as the people who said Bush invaded Iraq to get back at his father's enemy.

"Some of us, who fully recognize that there is no perfect system, have concluded that a system geared toward the private sector working under a framework of rules (I'm sure you are steeped in your Hayek, AKE, so you no doubt know what I mean) is the superior system."

What you have in America is often great care that covers people inefficiently and very poorly. Your households are bankrupted and your paychecks are cut by your health care to a degree that simply has no compare in other first-world countries. You may be right that the system you depicted is superior - that system isn't what you have in America, so it could very well be preferable.

"But to belch on about private insurance companies denying care while ignoring what happens in socialized systems makes a mockery of you and your beliefs."

I never said that one type of system is more preferable to the other. A mixture is often required. What I am saying is that the current US system is a pretty disgusting mutation of what a proper market-based, Hayek-approved system should be like. Basically, the government isn't altering something that should be ideologically dear to people of a libertarian slant anyway.

[rse]

Pagar-

Look to my comment above. The bill establishes a tremendous, open ended commitment to improve the health status of racial and ethnic minorities.

Better housing would probably help too. More equitable pay. Amnesty would relieve a lot of the mental anguish if one were here illegally.

There will not only be an Office of Minority Health at HHS but at the CDC, the FDA, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, and 3 other named agencies.

Not exactly the post racial America many Americans thought they were voting for in November 2008.

[Danube of Thought]

"What I am saying is that the current US system is a pretty disgusting mutation of what a proper market-based, Hayek-approved system should be like."

What you are saying is absolutely correct, and it is correct entirely because of congressional intervention. They could have undone the very market inefficiencies that they themselves have created, but they elected not to do so. They have done something far, far worse, and they and the American people will suffer the consequences.

To say that the present system is horribly flawed does not make the case for what the congress has just done. They have a boundless capacity to make bad things worse, and they've just done so in a field that affects every citizen personally and intimately.

[Cecil Turner]

What you have in America is often great care that covers people inefficiently and very poorly.

Hate to make this personal, but if you're not an American, why would you possibly care how our health system works? (And why should I care what you think about a domestic political issue?)

[anduril]

Somehow this article from the Shanghai daily seems relevant: Harder to buy US Treasuries

In a discussion on the global role of the dollar, Zhu [Zhu Min, deputy governor of the People's Bank of China] told an academic audience that it was inevitable that the dollar would continue to fall in value because Washington continued to issue more Treasuries to finance its deficit spending.

He then addressed where demand for that debt would come from.

"The United States cannot force foreign governments to increase their holdings of Treasuries," Zhu said, according to an audio recording of his remarks. "Double the holdings? It is definitely impossible."

"The US current account deficit is falling as residents' savings increase, so its trade turnover is falling, which means the US is supplying fewer dollars to the rest of the world," he added. "The world does not have so much money to buy more US Treasuries."

[Axel Kaspar Edgren]

"The government has crippled the insurance industry's ability to compete for your business."

Yes, the system from the Nixon area is a big mess, I agree to that. The foundation is ruined and that constrains the options now.

"Even if you could understand it, you still don't have the ability to distinguish liberty from wealth."

This is an interesting allegation, but a bit melodramatic.

"Think harder. Government prevents you from taking your business elsewhere. You support it's doing so even more."

Actually, the government was ready to let people choose a public option, forcing the industry to compete more. The moderates thought that was some kind of heresy, so goodbye to that.

"This is what kleptocrats do. They hamstring business until it hurts the majority of Americans. Then they step in to save them."

Those sly, monolithic liberals.

[rse]

Cecil-

The difficulty in terminating any of these offices makes perfect sense given that they appear to be an entity available to work with ACORN on vague "activities" aimed at reducing health disparities.

If you look to page 244, lines 19-23, you will see the qualifications of any of the 7 Directors.

Where do you think we could find people with "DOCUMENTED experience and expertise in minority health services research" AND "health disparities elimination"?

That's a very interesting and unusual qualifying threshold.

[anduril]

Hate to make this personal...

One of those lines--like, "To tell you the truth"--that it's usually best to avoid. :-)

[Old Lurker]

"That's almost 20 percent of their income for health insurance!"

And since health care is nearly 20% of the economy, funny how the math works.

[rse]

Has anyone seen anything about the change in the EGTRRA of 2001 sunset provision at the end of the bill?

The bill substitutes December 31, 2011 for December 31, 2010.

[Danube of Thought]

"Yes, the system from the Nixon area is a big mess, I agree to that. The foundation is ruined and that constrains the options now."

The system is not from the Nixon era. It is from the mid-1940's.

[anduril]

To say that the present system is horribly flawed does not make the case for what the congress has just done.

And this principle applies in so many other areas, as well.

rse, you've hit the nub of what this is really all about--permanent leftist political empowerment, not health care for the people.

[Danube of Thought]

"Actually, the government was ready to let people choose a public option, forcing the industry to compete more."

The industry has been prevented from competing by congressional enactments dating from 1946. "Competition" with a government-funded entity does not exist.

[Cecil Turner]

One of those lines--like, "To tell you the truth"--that it's usually best to avoid. :-)

It wasn't meant to be taken sincerely. Sorta like if I complimented your perspicacity.

[Danube of Thought]

CBO has just announced the cost of the bill is $871B, and that it will reduce the deficit by $132B over ten years. Of course, that means the first ten years, in which revenues will be collected for all ten but benefits paid out only for the final six.

[bolitha]

Well, I've been busy with Christmas and have not been reading this blog lately. What I want to know WHEN did Axel Kaspar Edgren appear and can you make him/her disappear?

[Cecil Turner]

If you look to page 244, lines 19-23, you will see the qualifications of any of the 7 Directors.

Yep, I read through it and that's exactly what it is. Note also the diversion in each agency of funds (to be offset by a reduction of "substantially the same percentage" from other programs).

And hey, if they're overfunded, why not just cut that percentage.

[rse]

DOT-

Also notice that the $500 million savings from Medicare programs is deferred until FYs 2015 - 2018 .(Page 172)

[clarice]

"what you have in America" and "more preferable"? Axel, where the hell are you posting from?

[Thomas Collins]

AKE, I have to say that you have rendered me speechless, which I suspect my family and my friends at JOM would have said is impossible. You criticize the current US health care system and those opposing ObamaCare on a thread that reports that a deal has been reached on a bill that I'll bet even you might acknowledge in a less heated atmosphere will make things worse.

[Jose Guerra]

I had lowered my expectations dramatically. So I consider any bill with no public option a major victory!

Sure the bill still sucks and will only drive higher health care cost, higher taxes and lower quality care, but that is a plus as far as 2010 & 2012 elections go.

I'd say pretty good outcome overall.

[Cecil Turner]

In related news, the Chinese signal reluctance to buy US Treasuries:

In a discussion on the global role of the dollar, Zhu told an academic audience that it was inevitable that the dollar would continue to fall in value because Washington continued to issue more Treasuries to finance its deficit spending.

He then addressed where demand for that debt would come from.

"The United States cannot force foreign governments to increase their holdings of Treasuries," Zhu said, according to an audio recording of his remarks. "Double the holdings? It is definitely impossible."

You'd think that'd cool the Dems' ardor for spending another couple trillion $ . . . but apparently not.

[tao9]

"Those sly, monolithic liberals."

Actually dishonest, totalitarian.

I was banned at WashMonthly/PoliticalAnimal blog this week by Steve Benen (Rachel Maddow's eye-liner caddie) for the crime of mentioning the CNN 61% oppose poll.

You, Axel Kaspar Edgren, seem to still be here.

Liberty: a concept lost on the left.

[clarice]

Several sites have noted that Obama seems to be bowing to Jiabao in the official snap of the meeting. I think the Chinese premier looks strikingly like the fellow in the SNL skit--rendered almost speechless by the idiocy of The Won.

[Jim Ryan]

Yes, compete with the government plan. Which is sold at a severe loss but can't go out of business unless the government falls. Try competing with that.

After a while there are no private insurance companies. They can't compete with an opponent who can sell at a loss forever. They're gone. Plenty of advocates of public option admit that this will be the result. Their useful idiots are filled with glee at the prospect of the government putting private insurance out of business. They will have crappy health care when old age hits and their care is rationed, as in England and Canada. But at least they will have gratified their envies and enriched a small cadre of kleptocrats. At least there's that consolation.

[narciso]

So we got trolls for the holiday,s what fresh hell is this. Bring on Cthluthu, hence the LUN

[Rocco]

Page 294

8 SEC. 10413. YOUNG WOMEN’S BREAST HEALTH AWARENESS

9 AND SUPPORT OF YOUNG WOMEN DIAG10
NOSED WITH BREAST CANCER.

Page 301

12 ‘‘(g) DEFINITION.—In this section, the term ‘young
13 women’ means women 15 to 44 years of age.

Kill Granny Lives!

[Fresh Air]

Axelcleo is just excited that he will get free health care for his imaginary son who was wounded in Iraq.

[Captain Hate]

Funnily enough, misspelling "Palin" as "Plain" is still accurate and descriptive.

Don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back about your great wit, Junior; even Palin's detractors don't deny that she's anything but plain. It's part of the reason they hate her.

Again, English isn't your first language, is it? Is Axelrod offshoring the trolling or are the public schools spitting out an even more inferior product in communication skills?

[BC]

None of my values or positions have ramifications that would topple or endanger a society where you and I could cohabit peacefully and independently.

Given that your values and positions have resulted in you supporting policy under which I am coerced into subsidizing your healthcare expenses twice over, your statement is pretty much the opposite of true.

[clarice]

Turn on Eliades Ochoa on final fm.com, pour a rum and coke and take it easy, we're in for a long haul fight against dumb. Someone there is who longs for the Middle Ages and widespread ignorance.

[anduril]

1. Posted by: anduril | December 19, 2009 at 12:39 PM

2. Sorta like if I complimented your perspicacity.

Posted by: Cecil Turner | December 19, 2009 at 12:50 PM

3. Posted by: Cecil Turner | December 19, 2009 at 01:10 PM

Cecil, you're almost beyond parody, but still, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and you obviously thought my post was perspicacious.

[Fresh Air]

Over at Ace of Spades, there was a pretty extended argument about whether passage of Zerocare was the end of the world. Many assumed it was. I have to say, though, that this thing will get re-done umpty-ump times in the future and with luck, will even be repealed. It's simply too unpopular a measure for it not to be. I don't see the citizenry suddenly developing amnesia and thinking it's great that they have wait six months to see a doctor about their sore knee.

In the short, there is no doubt in mind that this pile of excrement will result in the massive reduction of Mediacrats in Congress. Fear usually triumphs over hope when it comes to the unknown. So my reading is the Gambler's Fallacy will push all of the undecideds away from the Mediacrats and into the camp of liberty.

Fortunately, the GOP has (thus far, at least) avoided civil war over all the socialism by keeping the RINOs inside the tent. They will be immensely glad they were next fall.

[Gmax]

Id say stupid runs entirely to the bone with this one, save your breath its entirely wasted trying to educate someone with the mental capacity of capuchin monkey.

[Jane]

Oh is that what he meant? He was trying to insult Sarah Palin and screwed it up?

That's hysterical.

Ake sounds like a guy who can't get a date.

[narciso]

Eliades, does it make it seem bearable, I have to get the soda, in order to make a Cuba
libre, or as we call it, 'una mentirita', the
little lie

[ben]

"Would you support or oppose having the government create a new health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans?"

A narrow majority says yes to this according to most polls, and it's tied in Rasmussen. But this question and the ones more friendly to the public option like the CBS poll that says like Medicare" are all misleading.

The public option of course is not designed "to compete with the private insurance plans" since it's not a level playing field and the people advocating the public option don't want competition, they want single payer and socialized medicine.

Ask the question "do you want a public option that will lead to the end of private insurance and socialized medicine" (which is what proponents really want) for example and you will see opposition in the 80% range.

So this "a majority of Americans want a public option" line is bogus. The important poll is that 2/3 of Americans oppose this specific bill.

[Captain Hate]

Speaking of AoS, one of the more interesting things I read there earlier this morning was this:

Explain what the "benefits" are of this plan, even from a lefty point of view. People don't want it now. The only reason it has any support is that liberals feel sorry for Obama -- they treat him like a retarded child -- and want to give him what he's asking for.

That I think is what is really at the heart of this madness; they want to give Toonces something to sign so he can claim to have done something even though his shilling for it drove it in the toilet. What complete lunacy. Even Olbermann sees through this; reflect on that for a while.

[ben]

"Actually, the government was ready to let people choose a public option, forcing the industry to compete more. The moderates thought that was some kind of heresy, so goodbye to that."

Hahhahaha. Funny. "Forcing the industry to compete more." I love it when moonbats make statements like "come the revolution everyone will be able to eat caviar"..and to a member of the audience who says "I don't like caviar" the response is "come the revolution you will eat caviar and you WILL like it".

[clarice]

It'sa fantastic way to write legislation--line up the votes with nothing made public and then draft the bill...Tell me again how this is accord with anything you know about our system of governance.

[ben]

"Funnily enough, misspelling "Palin" as "Plain" is still accurate and descriptive.

Actually, no, there is nothing plain about Palin. She is much smarter than Axel and probably better looking too.

[Semanticleo]

As usual, you misunderstand or misrepresent according to your immutable predisposition.

The ACTUAL question Vanity Fair asked the respondents does not reflect personal understanding, but rather, the ability to explain the public option. Here's the RELEVANT question;

"Could you confidently explain what exactly the public option is to someone who didn’t know?"

Again, the HotAir cite subsumes the conflict Americans feel over the issue of healthcare.

"Most Americans continue to support major reform. But multiple polls show they are also overwhelmingly satisfied with the quality of their personal medical care, as well as their insurance coverage.

This health care reform paradox is the core reason why Democrats are finding it increasingly difficult to rally the public behind their dramatic effort to overhaul the nation's medical system.

About three-in-four Americans believe the nation's health care system requires major reform. Most Americans view U.S. health care as FLAWED."

As per usual, the Refugees from the Human Race Republican/Conservatives/Classical Liberals/ love of disinformation, clouds the
issue/issues.

[Semanticleo]

Forgot the reference for above quote.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/13/the_health_care_reform_paradox__97866.html

[clarice]

Anyone watching The Won's performance right now on Obamacare?