Slow Train Coming, Or Waiting For Godot?

Tom Friedman exhorts the Muslim world to undertake a reformation, and we know that will light a fire under them.  I am intrigued by the historic parallel he offers:

Only Arabs and Muslims can fight the war of ideas within Islam. We had a civil war in America in the mid-19th century because we had a lot of people who believed bad things — namely that you could enslave people because of the color of their skin. We defeated those ideas and the individuals, leaders and institutions that propagated them, and we did it with such ferocity that five generations later some of their offspring still have not forgiven the North.

Islam needs the same civil war. It has a violent minority that believes bad things: that it is O.K. to not only murder non-Muslims — “infidels,” who do not submit to Muslim authority — but to murder Muslims as well who will not accept the most rigid Muslim lifestyle and submit to rule by a Muslim caliphate.

My thought - the Civil War didn't simply start one day.  The tension between the slave and free states had been obvious for decades (and forced a punt at the Constitutional Convention.) 

So my question - does Mr. Friedman, or anyone else, see the early signs of an Islamic reformation?  Thomas Jefferson feared an eventual civil war at the time of the Missouri Compromise in 1820 - are there any comparable precursors to an Islamic reformation?

Comments

[Tollhouse]

Tom talks alot but what burning issue does he think that muslims will kill each other with the ferocity Americans killing each other during the Civil War? Is there a passionate debate within the muslim world on whether or not it's "evil" for a muslim to kill an infidel? From the outside there doesn't appear to be. It's a silly argument born of false moral equivalence.

[narciso]

I take the view that Steyn sees, that the Saudi (one assumes Pakistani and Egyptian)
civil war, has been exported through out the world, hence we cannot be spectators to the action

[anduril]

What does Friedman think that al Qaeda and related movements represent, if not an attempt to reform the Islamic world? It is precisely their reformist credentials that give them credibility among Muslims.

I was intrigued by this passage:

Islam needs the same civil war. It has a violent minority that believes bad things: that it is O.K. to not only murder non-Muslims — “infidels,” who do not submit to Muslim authority — but to murder Muslims as well who will not accept the most rigid Muslim lifestyle and submit to rule by a Muslim caliphate.

A week or so ago I was called a Nazi here for linking to Israeli newspaper stories (in Haaretz and Maariv) re a radical rabbi who has published a pamphlet that explains in great detail when it is not permissible to kill Gentiles and when it is permissible to kill Gentiles--including babies. The article pointed out that the rabbi's yeshiva receives financial support from the Israeli government. So, apparently Israel also has a radical, violent minority.

There's another Haaretz article out on this subject. It appears that US taxpayers can get a deduction for contributions to this rabbi's yeshiva: U.S. tax dollars fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies.

Question: Is it OK to condemn extremism wherever whe find it?

[Ignatz]

Whenever I see Friedman blabbing, with his earnestly furrowed brow and his labored gesticulations which can only have been practiced in front of a mirror, I am always reminded; here is a guy just smart enough to erroneously believe he's not a moron.

[narciso]

The problem is the lerading lights of Islam from Riyadh ,Cairo, Finchley Park, one assumes Islamabad, & Sanaa, all promote one view, the minority view is the one that rarely is heard.

[Neo]

Tom Friedman needs an education into slavery, and I don't mean the slavery of the 18th century. Tom Friedman needs an education into modern slavery.

The actor, John Rhys-Davies (think the dwarf in Lord of the Rings), the son of a diplomat once talked about how as a young child he watched the boats carrying "commerce" up the Eastern side of Africa to various Arab countries. He mentioned that the one part of the "commerce" that went unsaid in diplomatic circles were the slaves that were on many of those boats.

Frankly, Tom Friedman could not have picked a worse or maybe better example of necessary reform.

[bgates]

We had a civil war in America in the mid-19th century because we had a lot of people who believed bad things — namely that you could enslave people because of the color of their skin. We defeated those ideas and the individuals, leaders and institutions that propagated them,

forcing them to come up with more acceptable substitutions for the bolded phrase, like "because they didn't buy health insurance" or "because they can't be trusted to provide for their own retirement" or "because this important-looking guy with a graph said the world would melt if we didn't".

five generations later some of their offspring still have not forgiven the North

Whereas Friedman and his enlightened cosmopolitan buddies speak of the South only with gentle affection.

[steve sturm]

This illustrates the danger from people like Friedman (and, to be fair, some on the right) who refuse to recognize and deal with the world as it is and not just as they'd like it to be.

[Thomas Collins]

Anduril, I don't think the issue is whether it is OK to condemn extremism wherever we find it. The issue is how to deal with Jihadistan. There are atheists, agnostics, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and folks following a variety of other creeds who take actions substantially all of us would find reprehensible. Last time I checked, it was only followers of the type of jurisprudence propounded by the likes of Dr. Zawihiri and Ayatollah Khomeini who constitute an existential threat to societies which don't submit to the dictates of such jurisprudence.

[Rob Crawford]

Every week I'm surprised Friedman hasn't drowned in his own ignorance. Seriously -- I've met grade schoolers with deeper knowledge of history.

Of course, we have to keep in mind that Friedman hates this country with a passion. He seriously wishes we had a totalitarian government that could impose his will upon the rest of us; he so hates the liberties of others that he would imprison people for the eco-sin of using a plastic grocery bag.

I can understand why the NYT -- home of Duranty and other boot-lickers to tyrants -- publishes him. What I cannot understand is why anyone else pays attention to him.

[Walter Ronten]

Considering what happened during the Christian reformation, do we really want to see an Islamic one?

[Pofarmer]

It seems to me, that the biggest problem the U.S. faces now, is the Strong Federal Govt created by the Union winning the Civil war. But, nobody wants to bring that up.

[section9]

Sure, Walter, why not?

You do know, don't you, that Richlieu of France fought the Thirty Years' War down to the last German?

When we produce a national leader of that caliber, we'll be fine. The Muslim world won't be, but we'll be okay.

[narciso]

It's arguable that the war has been around for a while, but it's more in the nature of the Thirty Years War, than anything as neat
as a civil war.

[anduril]

I don't think the issue is whether it is OK to condemn extremism wherever we find it.

I beg to differ. When I'm condemned as a Nazi for even mentioning a certain type of extremism--without a single dissenting voice raised on this forum--I think there's an issue about condemning extremism wherever we find it.

The issue is how to deal with Jihadistan...Last time I checked, it was only followers of the type of jurisprudence propounded by the likes of Dr. Zawihiri and Ayatollah Khomeini who constitute an existential threat to societies which don't submit to the dictates of such jurisprudence.

I certainly agree that the radical rabbi in question is not an existential threat to anyone except Palestinians, and that Islam constitutes an existential threat to all other societies. However, in the battle to win hearts and minds (cf. The Surge 1.0 and 2.0), it is helpful if we are seen to be evenhanded in our condemnations--the perception of hypocrisy is highly damaging. The jurisprudence of the rabbi in question--and his teaching is jurisprudence, i.e., interpretation of the Law--certainly deserves condemnation and the tax deduction for contributions to his yeshiva should be revoked.

[Janet]

...it is O.K. to not only murder non-Muslims — “infidels,” who do not submit to Muslim authority — but to murder Muslims as well who will not accept the most rigid Muslim lifestyle and submit to rule by a Muslim caliphate.

That is Islam. It is what the Koran teaches. The non-violent Muslims are those that have become secularized. Any turning back to orthodoxy or foundational documents like the Koran will only lead to more violence.

The road to hope for Muslims and the rest of us leads toward conversion or secularization. The religion of Islam is evil.

[narciso]

So says someone who doesn't believe in the surge, who chooses Aussaresses over Galula, in the style of the Merovingians over the Cathar heresy. A little more attention who are trying to kill us, than those who would
fit the template on Law & Order.

[anduril]

Janet, agreed.

[anduril]

So says someone who doesn't believe in the surge, who chooses Aussaresses over Galula, in the style of the Merovingians over the Cathar heresy. A little more attention who are trying to kill us, than those who would fit the template on Law & Order.

IOW, there IS an issue with condemning extremism wherever we find it.

[Ignatz]

--I beg to differ. When I'm condemned as a Nazi for even mentioning a certain type of extremism--without a single dissenting voice raised on this forum--I think there's an issue about condemning extremism wherever we find it.--

I must have missed that or don't recall it. Not saying it didn't happen, just would like a link, if possible.

[Jim Ryan]

Tom Friedman exhorts the Muslim world to...

ALI: Hmm. Friedman weighed in.

MOHAMMAD: Oh? Let me see....

ALI: May not feel like doing what he says. But it is Tom Friedman.

MOHAMMAD: I know....Hmm. Okay, we need to see about getting this done. Friedman's Friedman.

ALI: Yup.

ABDUL: Hi, guys. What's this I hear about Friedman taking us to task? Sorry, that's my cell....Yes?....Right, I heard. I'm trying to find out what he has to say....call you back.... Well, guys? What's up?

ALI: Well, Friedman thinks we should...

etc.

[narciso]

It was the last time that this particular Haaretz story was raised. Now this particular
rabbi's message is ill advised to say the least, no it's a stupid thing to say. But why focus on that story, just like special FARA
scrutiny for AIPAC. It all has a bad odor,
that leads in dark allies in history, such as that little monogrpah of the Okrana, the work of Trepov, Ignatiev, the sad tale of a place
called Kishinev, capisce

[Gabriel Sutherland]

I wonder if the Union could have battled the Confederacy with a few hundred thousand British and French troops in the United States.

Jefferson Davis was elected, but about on the same level as Mubarak is "elected" in Egypt.

Besides, the Civil War was mostly about money since the British bought all those Confederate bonds backed by cotton production.

Now, enjoy that struggle over the ultimate reality - life after death.

[anduril]

just like special FARA scrutiny for AIPAC.

narciso, that's a flat out LIE. I have always called for "rigorous and impartial" enforcement of FARA.

[Thomas Collins]

Anduril, I am not going to comment on your previous interactions on this blog that have involved certain classifications. You responded to my comment on Zawahiri's and Khomeini's jurisprudence, in which comment I didn't classify you as anything. So, I would respectfully request that you keep the classification question out of our exchanges unless I classify you as something or you classify me as something.

As far as hypocrisy in the case of the rabbi, I can't comment on whether the rabbi has been sufficiently condemned, because I haven't sufficiently studied the issue. Now, although I don't claim to be an expert in the treatment by the State of Israel of non-Jews in general and of Palestinians in particular, I do think that a fair assessment of Israel is that, given that Israel is a state under constant siege, Israel has, as a whole, gone out of its way to treat non-Jews in a fair manner. You may disagree, and we may not be able to resolve our disagreement. In addition, as to hypocrisy in general, the hypocrisy of the West in general and its relationship to anti-Western views and actions was covered in an interesting book by Cemil Aydin (see LUN). Nonetheless, I think that for Israel in particular and the West in general, the big "hearts and minds" problem is that the West has given indications that it is unwilling to defend itself, and that this is the biggest incentive for those who might be "on the fence" to go against the West (all persuadable folks tend to be impressed by "the strong horse"). Israel may be afflicted by this less than the rest of the West, but I think to some extent guilt over horrible actions of Westerners (which ignores that all humans can act horribly and that the West, at least in my view, has done the best job of all civilizations in taming the Satanic aspects that exist in all humans) afflicts all Western societies.

[Ignatz]

--Now this particular
rabbi's message is ill advised to say the least, no it's a stupid thing to say.--

I'd say it goes a good bit beyond "stupid".
"Reprehensible" seems a bit more up to the task.

[anduril]

I am not going to comment on your previous interactions on this blog that have involved certain classifications.

I don't see why not--you clearly stated:

I don't think the issue is whether it is OK to condemn extremism wherever we find it.

and I replied to that statement by illustrating from my recent experience on this forum demonstrates that there IS such an issue. My response would appear to be highly germane to your assertion that there is no such issue.

Moreover, even as we blog here, narciso has issued a flat out lie about me that more than hints at anti-Semitism, and bizarrely tries to link me to Russian anti-Semitism. All for linking to an article in an Israeli newspaper. I'm waiting for voices on this forum to be raised against narciso's lie and innuendo--but I'm not going to hold my breath.

As for defending ourselves, I'm very much in favor of that. As this is a war of ideas to a very great extent, I suggest that our highest priority should be conducting intellectual historical studies to determine how it came to happen that so many in the West are willing to abandon rudimentary measures of self-defense--such as severely restricting or banning immigration of Muslims to the US. One of my "foolish" ideas.

[narciso]

True, Ignatz it is unforgivable, there is little way that this will not be the focus of every already confirmed Jew hater. but this focus on this outlier, much like the scenarios
entertained by Law & Order, the Company, Spooks (the British version) '24, and now even NCIS where there has to be some equivalence for metaphorical reasons.

[Ignatz]

--I have always called for "rigorous and impartial" enforcement of FARA.--

Yes, but my only memory, which could be mistaken, is that you have called for it only in the context of the AIPAC case, which I believe was narciso's point.

Again, could you please link me to the comment where you were called a Nazi? I have no idea where it is.

[narciso]

Why focus on those areas then, Israel is not perfect, but they are not the problem, and frankly for the last 60 years they have been besieged by those who have been. They are subject in the intellectual establishment by the likes of Finkelstein and Chomsky, and to an ever greater degree in the UK and Europe to nonstop opprobrium. Now when some one focuses on those same issues, and not for any particular concern
for the Arabs, one begins to wonder.

So if my allusions are too arch, well than I apologize.

[anduril]

Again, could you please link me to the comment where you were called a Nazi? I have no idea where it is.

When I linked the first Haaretz article clarice asked for a link to the Horst Wessel Lied so she could listen while reading my post. That should help you find it. It's a fact, and I'm not going to waste more time on it.

[Thomas Collins]

I don't think it is germane, anduril, and I am not going to take up space on this blog arguing with you about it. If you would like to engage in a discussion about whether your comment is germane, email me at [email protected] and we can have private correspondence. By the way, my offer to meet you face to face to pore over the Aquinas and al-Farabi texts still stands.

Now as to your classification concerning narciso, a lie, at least the way I learned it, is an intentional deception. Let me be as polite as I can and say that is not the way I see it, just as I will be as polite as I can and say that Rick Ballard is not a troll and that Jane is well within her rights to request that Linux talk not predominate and that other JOMers have been pretty restrained in their interactions with you and that at times you act in a manner similar to a lawyer who wants everyone to know what a great litigator or negotiator he or she is (although I have no idea what you do for a living). But I'll make you an offer on this one, too. Contact me at my private email address and I'll have an off the JOM blog interaction with you about my views on certain of your interactions with other JOMers here. Once again, I don't want to clog up this blog with that type of discussion.

[anduril]

if my allusions are too arch

Is this what you call "arch":

there is little way that this will not be the focus of every already confirmed Jew hater.

Since I'm the one who linked the Haaretz article that you say will appeal to every already confirmed Jew hater, I consider that not "arch" but "ham-handed." It's a bit of a mystery to me why public discussion of these issues should be free and open in Israel but must be tightly censored on this forum through the use of vile epithets.

[narciso]

Let me make it more clear, I apologize for my insinuations. But you really have developed a skill at ticking is off. I really didn;t know
much about the unique Czarist period until the time of the invasion of Georgia. where
I read everything I could find, fiction and nonfiction, which gave me a wider perspective
on the situation

[Old Dad]

Friedman's analogy is inept. Up until the first secession, there existed a stable political structure to underpin reformation. And even after the outbreak of hostilities, the cultural and political ties between the warring factions were very strong--Lincolns "mystic chords." No such unity exists in the Muslim world, hence the failure of Pan Arab or Pan Muslim politics.

Odder still is Friedman's apparent call to mass slaughter. Perhaps, he meant us as a cautionary tale.

[anduril]

My discussions of AIPAC and FARA are public record on this forum and are freely available to narciso. The fact is, narciso was a party to my discussions, so he is on notice as to what I said. I even joked with him at one point that we were "on the same page" regarding "rigorous and impartial" enforcement of FARA--moreover, at that time I cited a number of countries whose activities with their emigre communities call for scrutiny.

My statements re "rigorous and impartial" enforcement of FARA have been made repeatedly, and impartial obviously means "with regard to every party." The context doesn't matter--my words, as almost always, have been consistently perfectly clear and there is simply no excuse for falsifying them in such an invidious way. In the circumstances, I see no reason to suppose that narciso's claim that I have advocated "special FARA scrutiny for AIPAC" is anything other than a deliberate attempt to deceive readers of this forum regarding my positions and attitudes.

narciso has now had ample time to find any statements by me re "special FARA scrutiny for AIPAC" and throw them in my face.

[Sue]

re a radical rabbi

I could have sworn it was a rabbit.

[narciso]

Yes it comes from Haaretz that has a perspective not like the Times (LA & NY)in many respects, or Reuters, AP, McClatchy, six of one half a dozen of another, Generally anti Western in most respects,certainly Arabist, or at least Third World leftist.

Now the point of the thread was the issue of how to confront the jihadist current present in Salafi, Wahhabi and 12elver Shiism, yet there was a turn to totally irrelevant tangent.

[narciso]

Friedman is odd, he was the one who coined "Hama rules" for the way the Syrian govt handles any opposition, he knows how they train and give sanctuary to many groups like Hamas and PFLP-GC, just like the bases in Pakistan and Iran, yet he more often then not stigmatizes the US or Israel for the situation. Kristof who was trained as an Arabist, has a more severe case of the same
syndrome

[anduril]

Accepted narciso. I hope you'll agree that I've always been open to discussing these issues with you in a completely frank manner. I am what I am, and I conceal nothing when I express my views. As I have consistently said, I regard FARA as a cornerstone of our national security and that is a topic on which I have strong views.

In general, Ignatz and Thomas Collins, I don't expect anyone here to be up on the history of all my interactions on this forum. If you were to pay a little more attention--or if you had followed it over a longer period--you might adjust your views somewhat.

For example, since one or both of you were unaware that I was called a Nazi and have been repeatedly slurred as an anti-Semite, perhaps you also were unaware that I was recently called an "SOB"? I gave no provocation that I was aware of and declined, as I often do, to respond--except to specify "an" rather than "a" as the proper article (a bit of tongue in cheek humor). Of course, if I were the one calling someone else names like that, I think I'd be hearing about it--yet no one raised a dissenting voice, or even bothered to counsel restraint. What I do strongly object to is the regular attempts to intimidate the open expression of quite legitimate views that I witness on this forum.

As I said yesterday, I don't come here because I would otherwise lack friends. If some people don't want to read what I write, and want to tell me that, as far as I'm concerned that's their loss and I really don't "give a shit"--there are plenty of others who do read my posts.

[Dave Schuler]

Commenters above have alluded to it but I believe that Tom is confusing the Reformation with the Enlightment. We are smack dab in the middle of the Islamic Reformation and it bears startling resemblance to the Reformation that took place in Christian Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries, cf. the Thirty Years War.

It is the Islamic version of the Enlightenment that is needed and glimmers of that have yet to be seen.

[anduril]

OT via Powerline (incredibly, there doesn't seem to be an active or recent health care thread):

Today Oklahoma's magnificent Senator (and Dr.) Tom Coburn has begun to follow up on Erickson's plea. Senator Coburn objected to the unanimous consent required to waive the reading of Senator Sanders's 767-page amendment supporting frankly socialized medicine. (I understand that Senator Demint is assisting Senator Coburn in maintaining the floor presence necessary to withhold unanimous consent.)

This tactic may have been held in reserve until we got close to the recess.

[anduril]

Dave Schuler, IMO, the Enlightenment is part of how the West got in the fix it's in.

[narciso]

That is the problem, now Wahhabism was put into cold storage for about 50 years, under
the forces of the original Mohammed Ali, the Circassian ruler of Egypt, That last for a while, until Burton, Doughty and Palgrave visited the Arabian peninsula, but ultimately WW 1, liberated it from it's Nejd redoubt

[JM Hanes]

anduril:

You ladle out snide remarks about this board collectively day after day; you fling gratuitous insults at anyone who disagrees with you, a list which now includes almost everyone individually; you collect grievances and dead horses which you beat obsessively.

No one rises to your defense when someone returns the favor. What a shocker.

[Neo]

Nobody expects the Islamic Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to Allah .... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[Thomas Collins]

With respect to me, you're going to get the last word on the "interaction issue" on JOM, anduril, because I am not going to engage you on these matters in this blog. My offer of private correspondence or face to face stands.

[narciso]

Thanks Neo, a little levity was required at this point.

[Sue]

perhaps you also were unaware that I was recently called an "SOB"?

LOL. If you are referring to me, SOB is "scroll on by". I don't typically call people names. I say typically, because for every rule, I do have an exception.

[Cecil Turner]

I am what I am, and I conceal nothing when I express my views.

What a crock. You're a stereotypical moby, and your repetoire is replete with threadjacks, gratuitous ad hominems, and generally makes the comment section a chore . . . which appears to be the goal. You also whine about personal attacks whilst simultaneously insulting all participants repeatedly. This is just another case in point.

[anduril]

Thomas Collins, here's a thread you may enjoy.

No Blood for Oil

You have to scroll down just a little before things start happening. One more example of my exemplary restraint. :-)

[centralcal]

Sue: I just sprayed my monitor with Dr. Pepper, reading your SOB comment! Omg, I remember the thread where you said that too. LMAO.

[anduril]

Have a nice day, Cecil. What's a "moby," anyway? I can't recall being called that before.

[Sue]

C-cal,

I didn't even think anything about it at the time. I had no idea anduril was harboring enough resentment to chastise everyone here for not chastising me. ::grin:: I am sincerely chastised for calling anduril a "scroll on by".

[laura]

Dave,
If we are going to draw that analogy we had better be specific about which Enlightenment variety we are wishing for. Heaven knows we don't need a reenactment of the French and all its attendant atrocities past and present.

[anduril]

Well, then, I owe you an apology, Sue. Check the other thread and see if I missed out on anything similar.

[anduril]

It wasn't resentment, per se--as I expressed it, I was puzzled because I couldn't imagine what offense I had offered.

[Ken Rodgers]

While it would be nice for Islam to reform, I have no confidence it will anytime soon, internal civil war or not. The civil war I worry about is the second US civil war. I fear the differences are irreconcilable. The only way to avoid the srcond US civil war is to return to true federalism, the likes of which we haven't seen in nearly a century.

[Sue]

A "moby", according to LGF definitions is "An insidious and specialized type of left-wing troll who visits blogs and impersonates a conservative for the purpose of either spreading false rumors intended to sow dissension among conservative voters, or who purposely posts inflammatory and offensive comments for the purpose of discrediting the blog in question."

Long before LGF says that Moby was coined, an old Master Sgt. that I affectionately called "Top" used the term "moby" referring to a larger version of a guppy. A guppy was someone who falls for stupid shit.

You pick which one you want to be.

[anduril]

Agreed, laura--including its baneful influence to the present day.

[Sue]

Check the other thread and see if I missed out on anything similar.

That's alright.

[anduril]

Coulda been worse. I thought it might've been a reference to the book that somebody mistook for a treatise on VD. That would make me a guppy, for the nonce.

[centralcal]

anduril: we do use some "shorthand" type phrases in our comments, which most of us are familiar with, though not all. A familiar one that we get asked about a lot is LUN (link under name).

SOB - scroll on by - is used to say we don't even bother to read that person's comments, we just sob (scroll on by) to the next person's comments.

[Neo]

AP athlete of the decade is ... too funny

[Sue]

Coburn told Hannity that there will be a vote Christmas Eve. That is what Reid is planning.

[Porchlight]

Huge news, guys, via HotAir in big red letters:

Collapse: AFL-CIO, SEIU hold emergency meetings, may oppose ObamaCare

Is it a trap? They are famous for this crap.

Also Drudge has this headlined: PELOSI: NO HEALTH CARE DEAL THIS YEAR

[clarice]

porch, I don't read the article as matching the headline. She says the Senate will pass it, Obama will sign it and public opposition to it will then wane.

[Sue]

Clarice,

Coburn just told Hannity there will be a senate vote on Christmas Eve while everyone is going about other business. I think he was serious about the date for the vote.

[Ignatz]

--When I linked the first Haaretz article clarice asked for a link to the Horst Wessel Lied so she could listen while reading my post.--

Well I finally found the thread in question and your statement above is not quite accurate. She wanted a link while reading your post(s) not post. I took her reference to be to the whole of your, sometimes veiled sometimes not, racial, Israeli, Jewish related posts.
Shortly above the Haaretz post was one about Steve Sailer, whom you have linked to several times, and whom has some somewhat controversial, shall we say, racial and ethnic views and has associated himself closely with other controversial chaps like the late Sam Francis and Pat Buchanon.
While Clarice was no doubt using hyperbole to make her point, your repeated OT invocation of language and issues very similar to Buchanon's, Sailer's and Francis' on Israel and race were noted by her as the reason for her comment. They are also the reason, in addition to your general irrascibility, many of us are uncomfortable with so much of your commentary; you use the code words and gravitate to the topics often used and gravitated to by clearly anti-semitic oddballs of the type that Bill Buckley, no neo-con, was forced to disassociate himself from.
It's quite possible you're not one of them. If so perhaps you should reconsider your own language and topics that make it appear you are, rather than being so concerned with other poster's responses to them.

[Porchlight]

I think Drudge is keying off this pgh:

In the case of health care reform, Pelosi credited House Democrats with having saved Obama’s initiative after the onslaught of attacks during the August recess. And if the Senate can complete its bill this month, she will work to try to send a House-Senate compromise to the White House before the State of the Union.

So you're right, she's saying it will all go through in the end, but that some of the work will have to be done in January. Guess we'll have to see what kind of negotiations are possible before the SOTU. If the left is as fired up as they seem to be, then reconciling the two bills won't be easy.

If the Senate votes this thing through on Christmas Eve...well, I guess the year is pretty well shot for me anyway.

[clarice]

Suw, check out my latest post from the Exminer. I have no idea if the vote will be taken Christmas Eve. You could hardly outrage the public more than the Dems already have so this latest dodge would not be totally out of character. Still I think Byrd for one would balk at this.

[Thomas Collins]

So, if this is the Islamic Reformation, are there any texts yet written that are going to be the equivalent of Hooker's Lawes of Ecclesiasticall Politie and Hobbes's Leviathan?

I know it is way too early to answer my question, but a measured dose of wild speculation is a fine thing.

[MilitantBanana]

It is the Islamic version of the Enlightenment that is needed and glimmers of that have yet to be seen.

Turn the sand to glass, all the "enlightenment" needed.

[clarice]

Don't give up hope on Obamacare, Copenhagen looked more promising than it turned out to be and climategate more damaging thatn the press says itis.

[anduril]

It's quite possible you're not one of them.

Ignatz, I hope my preference for being judged by my own words rather than by those of others is understandable. I believe I always quote others for very specific purposes and do not issue blanket endorsements. Same should go for TM--just because he often quotes David Brooks doesn't mean I'm going to condemn him out of hand. Nor, IMO, should he be condemned for his obvious close reading of the NYT, any more than I should be for dipping into Haaretz.

A "moby", according to LGF definitions is "An insidious and specialized type of left-wing troll who visits blogs and impersonates a conservative for the purpose of either spreading false rumors intended to sow dissension among conservative voters, or who purposely posts inflammatory and offensive comments for the purpose of discrediting the blog in question."

Now that I know what a "moby" is, let me say that this attitude is precisely what I find objectionable around here--the idea that "we" only read certain writers or newspapers or websites, that "we" all march in lockstep and that "we" will shun anyone who fails certain test issues.

[Janet]

I just sent off 2 thank you emails to Coburn and DeMint. When I call my Senators Webb and Warner (from Virginia), their office says they do not know how they will vote...

[MilitantBanana]

the idea that "we" only read certain writers or newspapers or websites, that "we" all march in lockstep and that "we" will shun anyone who fails certain test issues

Careful of who you call "we" here buddy. If you have a problem with a couple people here, stop wasting the rest of our time reading your banter - take it to private emails or go cry in the corner.

[Porchlight]

When I call my Senators Webb and Warner (from Virginia), their office says they do not know how they will vote...

Thus protecting themselves against the left and the right. Grrr.

[Sue]

Now that I know what a "moby" is

See, I let you choose which definition fit you and I shouldn't have. I think you are just a large guppy.

Careful of who you call "we" here buddy.

Anduril changes definitions and words to mean what he wants them to mean.

[Fresh Air]

Neo--

I have read that Bangladeshi, Somali and Indonesian women frequently work in what is for all intents and purposes, indentured servitude in Saudi Arabia. They are used as maids and household help and evidently so poorly paid that many of them literally scavenge the garbage for food.

That's the sort of Muslim "brotherhood" Friedman is going on about, I suppose. If there has ever been a more overrated journalist, I would like to know who it is so I can send flowers.

[Rob Crawford]

Narcisolator or killfile are your friends, folks.

[Rob Crawford]

If there has ever been a more overrated journalist, I would like to know who it is so I can send flowers.

Dan Rather. Bill Moyers. The entire cast of "60 Minutes".

That's just on the spur of the moment. I'm thousands more names can be added.

[Neo]

Also, I think the Islamic "enlightment" already occurred in the 15th century.

[pagar]

"U.S. tax dollars fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies."

Feinstein: It's 'Morally Correct' to Force Taxpayers to Fund Abortion

LUN

Why are we worried about what is going on in Israel? Nothing could be more extreme than what goes on in the US, where millions of inconvenient children have been killed by a political party who's only goal is to kill more and force the taxpayers to pay more for doing it.

[MilitantBanana]

Feinstein: It's 'Morally Correct' to Force Taxpayers to Fund Abortion

Ecclesiastes 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.

[Neo]

An interesting piece (if you don't mind the source), Tom Friedman should have read this first ...
Islam and the Enlightenment

[Fresh Air]

Dan Rather. Bill Moyers. The entire cast of "60 Minutes".

Nah, not really. None of them ever wrote any "critically acclaimed" thumbsuckers like The Nexus and the Olive Branch, or The Earth is Sorta Pizza-Shaped, or whatever the hell they were called. Those guys were just garden-variety TV schmoes. Friedman, you see, is an intellectual. He has to have his air piped into his office special, like Michael Jackson.

[Sue]

Cities around the country that have installed energy-efficient traffic lights are discovering a hazardous downside: The bulbs don’t burn hot enough to melt snow and can become crusted over in a storm — a problem blamed for dozens of accidents and at least one death.

So now they will have to add heaters to melt the snow I guess?

Via Hot Air

[narciso]

I took a look at that "No blood for Oil" it doesn't help his case. He blames the Bush administration for not supervising Galbraith and his deals, then when evidence of Hassan's jihadi sponsoring activities, come up,there's as much caution as a ACLU attorney. It reminds me of the Python 'argument sketch' but it's more contrarian stubbornness

[anduril]

Point taken, pagar. Sorry narciso, I was trying to make a slightly different point. Gotta run.

[hrtshpdbox]

OT, but gotta love Sam Adam's waxing ecstatic about potentially deposing the "awesome man" who he's a "supporter of", B. Obama, on Blago's behalf.

[Fritz]

Since Mr. Friedman loves dictatorships I sure he will be very supportive of this report from Russia's Institute of Economic Analysis which claims the infamous Hadley Center for Climate Change (CRU) cherry picked only the 25% of weather stations which showed recent warming. I guess this means Putin doesn't feel he is getting enough of a payoff to make it worth Russia's while to support Copenhagen.

[Jack is Back!]

Forget Islamic Civil wars and really worry about the New American Civil war. We are more divided then they are and I see something either democratic or ugly on the horizon as things are going. You can be like Andruil and intellectualize this to death with rhetorical arguments ad-nauseum or you can sit back and realistically look into the eyes of the devil and see pure political and social evil being masticated from a political opinion to revolution. I am all for revolution, hard, fast and unequivocal.

Screw the arguments - bring on the blood.

[anduril]

Jay Cost has some pithy comments re Obamacare:

Welcome to the new gilded age. The original hope behind the 17th Amendment - the direct election of senators - was to get the upper chamber out of the pocket of mega-industries that could buy and sell senators. So much for that, I suppose. This has to be one of the biggest giveaways to corporate interests in the nation's history.

Andrew Jackson must be spinning in his grave this evening. The Democratic Party was founded in opposition to "corrupt bargains" among entrenched interests that Democrats believed were undermining the will of the people. Today, such interests are called "stakeholders." They are to be wooed, bought off, and neutralized. Can't afford a K Street lobbyist? Sorry, you're not a stakeholder. Don't like this bill? Eh...you don't know what's good for you. You're either a tea-bagging moron or a gutless liberal who will fold sooner or later.

[Frau Krankenkasse]

clarice -"Still I think Byrd for one would balk at this." When they wheel him in, how will we be able to tell if he is balking?

If there were a "we" to this site, I would not frequent it. I am happy to read or, rarely, not to read the varied exchanges posted here. If I wanted snarky, abusive exchanges,which I don't,there are always the geeky sites. I am pleased Mr. Magire does not toss me out.

IIRC B. Lewis wrote that the Muslim world saw no worth in the science of the Enlightenment and opted instead for European military theories and snazzy uniforms.

[anduril]

Coburn seems to have a sense of humor:

He also asked Democrats to accept his amendment requiring certification that all senators had read the bill and understood it before they voted on it.

[Frau Krankenkasse]

Neo, we sure can use that comfy chair once in a while. Now for something completely different. That great sign from Texas needs quoting again:

Free Nobel Prize with every Oil Change

[clarice]

Frau--they'll have a hard time getting him to sit still on the guerney on Christmas Eve is my guess.

[Old Lurker]

I sure wish we could rid this blog of he who imposes himself onto, what, 40% or so of the exchanges. Scroll through this thread and look at all the light blue. It really is disrupting the flow of this group. Think Sylvia on steroids.

[Jane]

OT:

I just came from my town's republican meeting. There were 7 of us (I kid you not) and one of the two republican candidates for US Congress in this district.

I was disappointed that the candidate seemed to want to discount the tea-partyers. I, of course, promptly announced that I was a tea party person and he softened a bit. At any rate, he didn't seem to be tapping into the anger that I think is out there. I suspect that is hard and risky to do, but it seems to me that is going to be the key in 2010.