Traditional Tuesday Open Thread

While I scuffle with my mysteriously problematic internet connection...

Comments

[Dave (in MA)]

Good luck with that. The last time it happened to me I had to spend an evening yelling "agent" into the phone even though I knew what was wrong.

[MayBee]

That made me laugh, Dave.

[Rick Ballard]

A Citizen's Guide to Global Warming Evidence

William Briggs is a statistician with a gift for presenting logical analysis in an intelligent and cogent manner. No nasty math or Greek letters resting on their sides are involved - it's well worth the time.

[DrJ]

No nasty math or Greek letters resting on their sides are involved

So what good is it? :)

Congrats on the DBD reference!

[PD]

One of the comments in Briggs' article points to one in Scientific American that purports to counter the contrarians. Comments in response to the SciAmer article take it to task. :-)

[glasater]

Jerome Corsi blocked by the UN from attending Copenhagen.

[anduril]

I'm gonna link my PUBLIC SERVICE POST re computer security here, so it'll be easier for anyone interested to find. DrJ's comments can be found further down from that point.

[Sue]

Dave,

I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate automated answering systems. As soon as it starts telling me to say or press 1, I start screaming give me a live person. It usually works, after it says I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch what you said 3 or 4 times.

[Neo]

The Grinch that stoled Charlie Brown

ABC had scheduled to present its annual screening of "A Charlie Brown Christmas" at 8 p.m. tonight, but thanks to Obama's never-ending need for "face time," it has been moved to next week.

[Old Lurker]

...one of the most tense times in the Lurker House is when one of us needs to talk to Verizon (we have FIOS for phones, TV, Internet and wireless). My wife and I kick that can as far down the road as possible before one of us - me - gives in and takes on the robot. While I can be shamed into making the call, I will never, ever try to decode the bill.

[bunky]

Yeah they are playing the little seen "Its Arbor Day Charlie Brown" after the speech.

[Old Lurker]

Good Briggs link, Rick, thanks.

Yesterday the radio in DC blared some guy's paper predicting that AGW would wipe out 90% of the earth's population. Surely more than 10% of us would figure how to gravitate south if we had 75 years warning, doncha think?

[Mary]

OL

We have had very good luck with tech support (best to call after midnight)but the last time a change in our phone service was made it was 10 months before the bill was correct.

Unfortunately, the billing wait time is at least 4xs the wait for tech support and if you need a supervisor...

[matt]

So in other words, if you don't agree with them, you can't attend Copenhagen...how very, democratic....

[Old Lurker]

"(best to call after midnight)"

True that, Mary.

My most frequent need for their tech guy is when my Verizon Router gets fried during a storm. When we return from a trip, I hold my breath until I confirm the LAN is up.

Except for the problem getting to speak with a real person, we love FIOS and bundled billing for those four services.

[Ignatz]

--Surely more than 10% of us would figure how to gravitate south if we had 75 years warning, doncha think?--

How naive, OL.
I suspect the remaining ten percent will be concentrated on the Tibetan plateau with the Pacific's waves lapping at their feet.

[cathyf]

Hey, OL, they do make surge suppressors for virtually every kind of cable. Why don't you try protecting that router? Alternatively, get on ebay and buy a duplicate of your router, correctly configured, up on a shelf. That way when you come home to a router from which the Magic Smoke has escaped, you can swap in your spare while waiting for a replacement.

(When our town first got dsl one coworker had a DOA dsl modem. The phone company was great about replacing it, but took a day to ship it out. So he snagged one on ebay, and it has done temporary duty at several places...)

[clarice]

Same in all respects here.OL.

[glasater]

Yes Matt--

Didn't know if that article I linked was on the 'cranky' side or not but glad you checked in on it.

I've often twittered your blog posts and wondered if you've checked in on that venue for some self promotion.
Mostly what I do is tweet links that are frontmost on my mind and try to be relevant to the topic of the time--and try to give attribution to sources.
The way I have my twitter set up is from mainly Hit & Run's and Maybee's lists of the folks they follow.
It is a rich source of information:)

[Jane]

I can say for the record that I have clicked on glasater's tweets of Matt's blog posts.

The last time it happened to me I had to spend an evening yelling "agent" into the phone even though I knew what was wrong.

Like Maybee, that made me laugh. Been there, done that.

[Old Lurker]

Cathy, those are good suggestions, both.

I tried to get Verizon to lend me a spare, got nowhere, and then got confused when I tried to buy an exact clone online.

Thought - wrongly - that I had fenced off the damn thing with surge protectors. The line I had overlooked was a copper Cat5 wire encased in PVC pipe that connects my home office to the router. That line runs (exactly to meet the LAN limits) 99M underground out to the building I use as an office. I had to negotiate the route through Mrs. L's garden for the ditch, taking it too close to a huge tree. Sure enough, that tree took a lightning strike and the surge went both ways through the Cat 5, frying the router at one end and all the switches and network cards in the office. I knew I should have used fiber optic in the ditch, but figured I'd get away with it. Ooops.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

When I have to call Blue Host, my domain server for Pal2Pal, for tech support I always wait until after midnight. No holding and the techs have time to really help you and will stay on with you until they do.

********************

Is anyone planning to live blog tonight's press conference? I'm not sure I can listen to Obama, his voice is like nails on a blackboard to me, so I hope someone live blogs.

[Old Lurker]

Iggie: "How naive, OL. I suspect the remaining ten percent will be concentrated on the Tibetan plateau with the Pacific's waves lapping at their feet."

Very good point. While Obama dissed him big time on his last visit, an organization I work with in DC often hosts the Dalia Lama when he comes to DC. Perhaps I can wrangle some future-ocean front land from him. If JOM doesn't get cracking on the Island, maybe we could go there.

[Joan of Argghh!]

In the spirit of recent revelations I feel it important to submit my work for peer review.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Old Lurker: When I lived in Indiana, our house took a major lightning hit. Blew a hole in the garage roof about 3 feet in diameter. It had hit the line coming in from the street and traveled to our outside junction box on the side of the garage and from there through our entire house wiring.

Funny thing though, the damage was hopscotched thru the house. Blew out my dishwasher, but not the refrig. or microwave, blew out my fax machine and copier, but not my computer or router, blew out two of three TVs and a clock radio, but not our stereo system which was part of the TV's surround sound. There was about $40,000 worth of damage. The insurance guy said it was the weirdest thing he'd ever seen how some electronics on the same circuits could escape and some were badly damaged.

[Old Lurker]

Ha Ha Sara. "Is anyone planning to live blog tonight's press conference? I'm not sure I can listen to Obama, his voice is like nails on a blackboard to me, so I hope someone live blogs."

Honest, we run a very proper house here. But whenever that man starts up on TV, Mrs. L and race each other to shout "F*** You" and switch to any other station. Our kids would be shocked.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Oops, hit send too soon. The insurance company recommended a high quality mult-plug power strip designed to withstand lightning. They cost $75 each, but worth it. I've now had mine since 1998 and they still work fine.

[Sue]

Wow. The women are coming out of the woodwork that allegedly have had affairs with Tiger.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

As much as I love to do computer graphics and design, I am the world's worst catchy headline writer and even less adept at designing catchy tee shirts, so I'm always trying to get pointers from what others do. This one is so simple and yet says so much:

[Frau Hochzeitstag]

Rick - keen Briggs article. He is right; tape the FAQ to the refrigerator if necessary. Maybe it should be taped to light standards around town, passed out on street corners and sent out for New Year's greetings.

[Jane]

Did you guys see this:

Well, how'd you like to make $1,200 just for shaking someone's hand and having your picture taken with the sycophant?

This is what Al "I'm Only Doing This To Save The Planet" Gore is charging for such an honor at next week's climate change conference in Copenhagen.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Chaco: Have you seen this?

The One Place On Earth Runaway Warming Should Be Obvious

but isn't!

[Joan of Argghh!]

Loving that tee, Sara!!

[centralcal]

"shout "F*** You" and switch to any other station"

Yep, that pretty much sums up what I do at my house too.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

No comment, the headline says it all:

Obama's Aunt: President Bush "is my No. 1 man in my life because he helped me when I really needed that help."

"I loved President Bush," Onyango said while moving toward a framed photo of Bush and his wife standing with Barack and Michelle Obama at the White House on inauguration day. "He is my No. 1 man in my life because he helped me when I really needed that help."

[centralcal]

Sue: isn't it kind of odd? Okay Tiger and Elin have a domestic and media blow up and now women are clamoring to claim affairs with him. Why not before? Hhmm - maybe they figure he is wanting to make this all go away and they smell $$$$$$ to be made?

What a world.

[centralcal]

I always thought my colored avatar thingy changed depending on home or work computer. But just now it changed when I switched browsers.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Remember the imminent demise of glaciers?

Maybe not.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Is anyone planning to live blog tonight's press conference? I'm not sure I can listen to Obama, his voice is like nails on a blackboard to me, so I hope someone live blogs.

Steve Green (Vodkapundit) will be on it.

[Dave (in MA)]

centralcal, I thought the avatar was tied to your e-mail address.

[MayBee]

Okay Tiger and Elin have a domestic and media blow up and now women are clamoring to claim affairs with him.

Nobody wanted to hear about it before.
It's why celebrities have to work hard to make sure they don't do anything that creates a market for unflattering information about them.

[Jane]

Where are you guys seeing all these other Tiger women?

Harrumph!

[centralcal]

I am usually taxi-cab yellow with white lines at work and yellow/gold flower at home (same log-in email addy for both as far as I know).

However, today at work in IE I was taxi-cab yellow and when I switched to Firefox it changed to yellow/gold flower.

[centralcal]

I think Tiger lost his temper and whacked out his own car window with the golf club in the garage, then hopped in, drove off upset, and crash!

[anduril]

Beautiful. Joseph Stiglitz is one of the more outspoken and opinionated economists out there, very liberal of course. Check this out: How Joseph Stiglitz Blew It On Fannie And Freddie.

How could three prominent economists have been so dumb-foundingly wrong about the systemic risk of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?

Today’s Wall Street Journal discusses a 2002 paper declaring that "on the basis of historical experience, the risk to the government from a potential default on GSE debt is effectively zero." It’s authors were Jonathan Orzag, Peter Orszag and Joseph Stiglitz, who had won the Nobel prize in economics the year before.

...

In short, they totally failed to predict what would happen.

Is this forgivable? Not really. The confidence of the paper belies the weakness of its stress tests. There were plenty of people warning about the dangerous road Fannie and Freddie were headed down, including the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal. Last year, in fact, a writer from the Journal (my brother Brian Carney) was awarded a Loeb Award for sounding the alarm bell. Stiglitz came around later, but by then it was too late.

[centralcal]

Jane - don't have a link right now, but I think it was Radar On-Line.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I haven't seen any stories like that either, Jane. Did you see the NY Post link to Rachel's interview I put in the Tiger thread in the middle of the night?

[glasater]

Sue and all--

Kudlow had an interesting panel discussing Tiger yesterday and one fellow--Pozner--said he knew Tiger very well.

[Neo]

MSNBC canned Jesse Ventura because he did support Iraq War

This is not your first venture into TV hosting since leaving the governorship. What happened to "Jesse Ventura's America," which ran briefly on MSNBC in 2003?

It was awful. I was basically silenced. When I came out of office, I was the hottest commodity out there. There was a bidding war between CNN, Fox and MSNBC to get my services. MSNBC ultimately won. I was being groomed for a five day-a-week TV show by them. Then, all of a sudden, weird phone calls started happening: "Is it true Jesse doesn't support the war in Iraq?"

My contract said I couldn't do any other cable TV or any news shows, and they honored and paid it for the duration of it. So in essence I had my silence purchased. Why do you think you didn't hear from me for three years? I was under contract. They wouldn't even use me as a consultant!

When you live in Mexico, your houses all have names. I almost named my house Casa MSNBC because they bought it. I was paid like a professional athlete, and I got very wealthy. For doing nothing.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

centracal: Your avatar looks avocado green with a an outlined sunflower in a slightly darker shade in the center. Yours and glasater's are the same today on my screen.

[Rick Ballard]

Phil Jones "Stands Aside"

Not "steps down". No CRUsader will step down - they're gonna have to be dragged down and they're gonna squeal like stuck hogs all the way.

[Neo]

Sorry, Ventura got canned by MSNBC for NOT supporting the Iraq War.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

TMZ does not seem to have any details of the Tiger story correct. I wouldn't trust their reporting on this case at all.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

I don't think avatars are tied to isp addys or emails as mine and Dave from MA are the same and I'm in Calif. and I assume he is in Massachusetts and I doubt we are using the same ip address or email address.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Sorry, Ventura got canned by MSNBC for NOT supporting the Iraq War.

Does anyone believe this? MSNBC wouldn't support Bush's war, so why would the expect Ventura to.

[MayBee]

Sara- what has TMZ gotten wrong?
Jane- grab a hanky and read this.

[JM Hanes]

Neo:

"Then, all of a sudden, weird phone calls started happening: "Is it true Jesse doesn't support the war in Iraq"

It's the Obama passive voice, Ventura style! LOL. I suspect the grooming didn't go well, and that MSNBC put him out to pasture when they found out that their ironclad contract worked both ways.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

For two days they told us the cops were trying to serve a warrant on the hospital for Tigers treatment records. It got so bad, the Fla. state police had to put out a statement that said, absolutely not true. They've touted this affair business, when it all looks bogus and the result of two women who were looking to score some bucks with the Enquirer, but who got everything wrong. I just don't trust TMZ. They said Tiger's face looked like he'd been bashed with a 9 iron, but the eye witness neighbor said the "minor" cuts were entirely consistent with someone hitting a window and getting scratched by broken glass.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

This whole idea that we mere humans can manage the earth's climate strikes me as mega-arrogant. We can't control the sun, the magnetic poles, hurricanes, volcanoes, whatever.

And now this from Insty:

APPARENTLY SOMEBODY BLEW THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT ON THIS ONE: Study Finds Ozone Hole Repair Contributes To Global Warming, Sea Level Rise: The 20th century’s biggest environmental success may exacerbate the 21st century’s biggest environmental crisis.

See you all later. My check just hit the bank and I'm off to spend some of it. :)

[MayBee]

Ventura is a truther.

[clarice]

Isn't that great,Rick? Did he imagine he'd be able to play this bluff forever?

[matt]

so in other words, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. How are the eco-kooks going to reconcile this?

[Rick Ballard]

"Did he imagine he'd be able to play this bluff forever?"

Had Gore been elected in '00 or Kerry in '04, the World Wide Air Tax would be a reality and the current cooling would be hailed as proof of its effectiveness. So, yes, I imagine he did believe that the bluff would work.

He had Hansen cooking and chilling the record as needed here and he had a passel of researchers willing to slant results slightly in exchange for gaining the status of becoming a Jerk of The Inner Circle of Climate Scientology. He also had BigGov working hand in glove with BigBiz to generate increasing regulation in order to freeze out competition - same as always.

Why wouldn't he believe that he could pull it off even with temperatures falling? As long as Obama continues to stink up the White House he still has a chance.

[Old Lurker]

Down but not gone, Clarice. Those guys never go away. Takes a silver bullet or a stake through the heart or something.

[clarice]

I feel sorry for those honest scientist whose careers the Jerk Circle interfered with. I hope they will start coming out of the woodwork now that they know why they couldn't get grant money, articles in peer reviewed journals, tenure slots, etc..

[clarice]

And having said that--here's the first honest scientist to tell how the Circle of Jerks did him in:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-fraud-is-everywhere-suny-albany-and-queens-university-belfast-join-climategate-pjm-exclusive/>Scientific Fraud

Excerpt:
"In 2007, I published a peer-reviewed paper alleging that some important research relied upon by the IPCC (for the treatment of urbanization effects) was fraudulent. The emails show that Tom Wigley — one of the most oft-cited climatologists and an extreme warming advocate — thought my paper was valid. They also show that Phil Jones, the head of the Climatic Research Unit, tried to convince the journal editor not to publish my paper.

After my paper was published, the State University of New York — where the research discussed in my paper was conducted — carried out an investigation. During the investigation, I was not interviewed — contrary to the university’s policies, federal regulations, and natural justice. I was allowed to comment on the report of the investigation, before the report’s release.

But I was not allowed to see the report. Truly Kafkaesque.

The report apparently concluded that there was no fraud. The leaked files contain the defense used against my allegation, a defense obviously and strongly contradicted by the documentary record. It is no surprise then that the university still refuses to release the report. (More details on all of this — including source documents — are on my site.)

My paper demonstrates that by 2001, Jones knew there were severe problems with the urbanization research. Yet Jones continued to rely on that research in his work, including in his work for the latest report of the IPCC."

[glasater]

After watching an interview with the head of the FCC today on CNBC--I have this sneaking creeping feeling that the internet is the next item on the lib's list of things they want to control.

[Captain Hate]

ABC had scheduled to present its annual screening of "A Charlie Brown Christmas" at 8 p.m. tonight, but thanks to Obama's never-ending need for "face time," it has been moved to next week.

Truth be known this is one time when Rupert Pupkin's Il Douche's preening need to be on television works in my favor because imo all network tv Christmas specials are on *way* too early.

[Rick Ballard]

Clarice,

Here is a clear description of the Secrets of the Jerks of the Inner Circle of Climate Scientology

DrJ can correct me if I'm in error but I don't believe that the vaunted "peer review process" is supposed to include Jones firing a copy of the paper to Mann in order to formulate a srategy to maximize the impact of the rejection.

These cockroaches have a deadly fear of light - and it's a very rational fear.

[bad]

ABC had scheduled to present its annual screening of "A Charlie Brown Christmas" at 8 p.m. tonight, but thanks to Obama's never-ending need for "face time," it has been moved to next week.

He's gonna take a drop in the polls for this...

[clarice]

I wonder if Pielke has a case against them?

Wouldn't that be nice if he did?

[centralcal]

Jane: just for you, the Chinese version:

The Tiger Woods Ani-Reenactment

It's a hoot!

[Rick Ballard]

I'd like the rest of the emails open to public inspection (after a light scrub by wholly disinterested parties to remove the purely personal). The "investigation" can be justifiably characterized as a whitewash unless they are produced. The same applies to emails generated by Mann at Penn and Schmidt and Hansen as well.

Pielke may well have a case against them and I'd dearly love to sit in on the deps should he file.

[boris]

"now that they know why they couldn't get grant money, articles in peer reviewed journals, tenure slots, etc.. "

I commented something similar a few days ago. Dunno if he read it wrong but DrJ was quite upset that I would suggest such a thing.

[Jane]

Maybee, how does on store 300 text messages? If I wasn't so technically challanged I could claim an affair with my Tiger too.

Centralcal,

So it was the distraction of hitting the window with a 9 iron that caused my Tiger to hit the hydrant. What a hussie!

[Gregory Koster]

Sue, DaveMA late as usual, but try gethuman.com. This website lists the buttons to push to bypass the phone tree hell to get to a human being. After that, you're on your own. It doesn't have every solution, but it has a great many.

Dave, in another thread you wrote that Christopher Hitchens was good on the war on terror, but otherwise a hard lefty. Give him a bit more credit: this title on Billyboy and Hillary: NO ONE LEFT TO LIE TO and this one on Nixon's right hand THE TRIAL OF HENRY KISSINGER. On a very different point of view, there is GOD IS NOT GREAT.

CH did start out on the far left, but I wouldn't rightly know a capsule way to characterize him these days. I'm glad he's where he is on terror, at least.

[Dave (in MA)]

Gregory, thanks. I've actually used gethuman before for some things, but their recommendation for my current ISP isn't any better than yelling "agent" in the receiver.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I commented something similar a few days ago. Dunno if he read it wrong but DrJ was quite upset that I would suggest such a thing.

Boris, as I recall you suggested all science works that way. Since DrJ is a working scientist he naturally took exception.

[boris]

"Boris, as I recall you suggested all science works that way."

That would be pure inference Charlie.

My comment:

This is less about the science than the political corruption. Don't you suppose the laboratories that have been engaged in this scam might be rather paraniod about who has access to their labs, files, and computers.

Wouldn't you expect skeptics who are scientists or work on products for scientists are aware that being open with reasonable doubts could damage their opportunities.

Clearly they have been hiding stuff. Clearly they have been paranoid. That gives them very reasonable motive to avoid or shun anyone who might blow their cover.

Perhaps one could miss the obvious context, but I fail to see how you could claim I suggested all science works that way.

I did not.

[anduril]

Not to be missed, even though it's in Chinese: The Amazing Animated Version Of The Tiger Woods Crash

[anduril]

woops.

I'll make up for that with this FreeBSD v. Apple update:

FreeBSD Shines While Apple Fails.

Apple is making a lot of money these days. The more money it makes, the greater the contempt for its customers it seems to display. A critical bug recently discovered in FreeBSD, and the speed with which this bug was resolved, illustrates this rather well. If you use Apple's products in your business, be afraid; be very afraid.

[fdE]

Tiger mystery solved: He was going to get a Congressional Gold Medal.

AIDS day mystery: Who gave the South African President 120 million dollars cash? Are we just making cash payments like the embassies have been for 'whatever they want?' Is this bad for the economy just giving away cash and is this called just printing money?

[MayBee]

Maybee, how does on store 300 text messages? If I wasn't so technically challanged I could claim an affair with my Tiger too.

Jane, you just need a phone with lots of storage, like an iPhone or a Blackberry thingie.

If you want, I can send you some hot text messages and you can save my contact number under the pseudonym "Bear".

What are you wearing?

[Jane]

LOL - "Bear"? - well someone had to come before my Tiger.

[MayBee]

"Bear" is what one chick supposedly called him in her contacts list.

[pagar]

Can someone explain why we are forced to think about Mitch McConnell getting money from insurance companies when it is obvious that Tom Daschle got millions from them and has been at the White House 11 times to make sure that the healthcare fraud bill is written the way he wants it?

[glasater]

Pagar--

It's those obscene profits health insurance companies make--an average of 2-4%.

[Melinda Romanoff]

New Topic, for those interested, a global map of ship traffic, with tools. LUN.

[pagar]

Melinda, I really liked that map. One question, Do you know why we see no activity for the Panama Canal on that map?

[pagar]

glasater, thanks for clearing that up. I can see why the Democrats think that fraud pays, in healthcare or climatecare, and they're in both of them.

[glasater]

Really appreciate maps like that Melinda. Thank you.

[glasater]

Oh dear Pagar--I was being sarcastic:)

2-4% profit is not very much at all!!! Apologies for sure.......

[pagar]

glasaster, I took it as being such. That's why I said that the Democrats think fraud pays better.

[Rick Ballard]

It appears that the Australian government may fall (unless I am totally out to lunch as to the meaning of “double dissolution trigger” as a trigger for new elections). It's in comments at WUWT in a piece where Lord Monckton rips Phil Jones a new aperture.

Climategate isn't the "cause" - Rudd is as committed a commie as Obama and wanted an Air Tax to take to Copenhagen (as an offering to the memory of Stalin & Mao, I suppose).

[boris]

Just listened to the last 40 minutes of the Moran show with Clarice (and some others) talking about climategate and Afghanistan.

Good show Clarice.

[DrJ]

Rick,

I don't believe that the vaunted "peer review process" is supposed to include Jones firing a copy of the paper to Mann in order to formulate a srategy to maximize the impact of the rejection.

That's right. In fact, one is not supposed to disclose the paper to anyone else without the permission of the journal editor. That's how it works for the journals I for which I review, at least.

Every journal that I know also asks explicitly that reviews be disinterested (namely, not personal) and to provide guidance to improve the work so that it may be published later (in improved form, perhaps). Seeking to maximize the pain of rejection is really nasty, and not at all how the process is supposed to work.

And one is not supposed to review a paper where there is a clear conflict of interest. I decline to review papers from friends and enemies alike.

It is true, though, that most journals ask for a list of reviewers qualified to review your submission. Technical areas get arcane very rapidly, and it is difficult to review something that one is familiar with, rather than an expert.

So directing the paper to qualified peers is a good idea. It does open the door for irregularities, though.

[clarice]

Thanks, Boris!

[Melinda Romanoff]

pagar-

They ARE in the middle of a minor improvement project, widening it. It may be closed, I never thought to check on it.

Here's the latest. LUN.

[Neo]

With all the ClimateGate stuff about, I started to examine the current "energy plan" that the Democrats have been pushing and one point sticks out.
I get really perplexed over “renewable” energy sources, such as bio-fuels, that are carbon-based. Putting aside the logistics of bringing on the capacity to produce to a meaningful level and the redirection of resources from food production, the only plausible argument is that they create a short term capacity that doesn’t ship dollars offshore, but why then the hostility to more domestic oil production ?

Why would anybody, who is worried about CO2 emissions, promote the R&D for a new carbon-based fuel ? I fail to see the long term logic for any AGW “believer.”

[DrJ]

The reasoning is that renewable carbon sources are carbon neutral, at least if one neglects processing costs. The carbon that is generated in burning is consumed in making more of the renewable resource.