A Foolish Consistency

Mike Allen [not Ben Smith] thinks history ought to repeat itself:

Shoe bomber was read Miranda rights

Republicans may have a hard time keeping up their talking point about how reading Miranda rights to the Christmas Day bomber represented a dangerous new direction under President Barack Obama.

It turns out that that back in December 2001, Richard Reid — the “shoe bomber” — was read or reminded of his Miranda rights four times in two days, beginning five minutes after being taken into custody.

Furthermore, the Bush administration specifically rejected the idea of a military tribunal — another step that Republicans have argued should have been taken in the case of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who tried to bring down Northwest Flight 253 over Detroit on Christmas Day and was read his rights after 50 minutes of FBI questioning.

And his point?  First, is there any reporting to suggest that Reid stopped talking after being Mirandized?  If he kept on chatting the analogy collapses.  And I will toss in a shrewd guess based on countless hours of "Law and Order" - if Reid was advised of his rights four times, it wasn't because he was sitting there silently and the Feds were trying to make conversation.  I'm not an experienced FBI interrogator but "You still won't talk - fine, you have the right to remain silent" strikes me as wildly improbable approach.

In any case the shoe bomber example is a weak reed to lean on since at that point the Bush Administration was making up their procedure on the fly. Guantanamo had not yet been opened for business; as of Jan 3 2002 the Times had this:

Mr. Rumsfeld said he was still working on the details of the military tribunals that President Bush authorized two months ago. But, having said last week that the Pentagon had ''no plans'' to hold any tribunals at Guantánamo Bay, he suggested today that Guantánamo could be such a location after all. Asked specifically about the base as a tribunal site, he said, ''I haven't addressed that particular question, as to where they would be located with respect to a commission.''

The military was awash in prisoners taken primarily in Afghanistan, with no good long term facilities to hold them:

Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that as of this morning, the military held 248 prisoners. A total of 225 were at the Kandahar airport; 14 were at the Bagram airfield, just north of Kabul; eight, including John Walker, the 20-year-old Californian found fighting with the Taliban, had been transferred from the helicopter carrier Peleliu to the Bataan, an aircraft carrier now in the Arabian Sea; and one was in Mazar-i-Sharif.

''We do not have a good fix on what the total number of detainees will be,'' Mr. Rumsfeld said. ...

''In the event that Guantánamo proves to be inadequate from a size standpoint,'' he added, ''there are other places, obviously, that were considered. And while Guantánamo was the least worst, there are others on the list that might be the next-least worst.''

So other than not having a prison, not having worked through the rules for tribunals, and (my guess) not having enough interrogators to process their prisoners, the military was good to go.  Is it really shocking that they would not want to take responsibility for Robert Reid as well?

We learn by doing and we learn from our mistakes.  Regardless of what Bush (the new gold standard in due process?) may have done in December 2001 at the outset of this war with procedures in flux, the question remains, what should we have done with the Underpants Bomber in December 2009?

This LA Times account of his interrogation is laughable - he told the questioners to go away, so they did?

But the questioning stopped when doctors said they needed to sedate Abdulmutallab to treat his injuries. At that point, the sources said, the agents backed off.

"The two agents who interviewed him are very experienced counter-terrorism agents," a source said. "They've been around a long time and have traveled internationally. And the Detroit area has the largest Muslim community in the country."

When Abdulmutallab awakened, a second team of FBI agents was sent in. Authorities thought he might be willing to say even more to the second set of agents.

"We had to see if he was still willing to talk," another source said. "And it was pretty quickly apparent to them that he wasn't. He had had a change of mind. It was only after establishing that with some confidence that they decided to go ahead and Mirandize him."

Pretty gritty.  Maybe they should have tried a fourth "Pretty please".

PARALLEL LIVES:  This description of the defense plea for mercy for Reid is, well, thought provoking:

Mr. Reid's public defenders sought to portray him in a softer light.

In a sentencing memorandum, the lawyers said Mr. Reid was the product of a broken home who grappled with racial intolerance. The memorandum said that Mr. Reid's black Jamaican father was rarely around and that Mr. Reid, whose mother was British, was conscious of being the only dark-skinned person in his family.

The lawyers said these experiences stoked Mr. Reid's anger and led him into a life of drug addiction, foster homes and petty crime. Ultimately, defense lawyers wrote, he converted to Islam in prison to find meaning in his life, and his effort to blow up the plane was an act ''to prevent the destruction of the religion that saved him.''

Had Reid been born in America he would be President, and could pardon himself.

THERE'S REALITY, AND THERE IS YGLEALITY:

Matt Yglesias explains the conservative approach to terrorism:

People should be tortured as a routine investigative technique.

And back in reality:

In the aftermath of September 11, fewer than 100 terrorists have been held in the CIA's secret prisons, and fewer than one third of those have been subjected to what CIA Director Michael Hayden calls "special methods of interrogation," and what others called torture.

Three were waterboarded.

Comments

[Frau Fastelovend]

"Pretty please, with sugar" follows.

I hope someone *in charge* of the Confederacy of Dunces reads TM and soon.

[centralcal]

NRO had this posted just awhile ago:

CNN's Steve Brusk reports that Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab has resumed his cooperation with law-enforcement officials last week, and that he "has been providing useful, current, and actionable intelligence." Officials tell CNN that leads are "being actively chased."

As Rich Tweeted, this is very good news if true. But it was still foolhardy and risky to go about trying to get this information with a lawyer in the way.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

We learn by doing and we learn from our mistakes.

Except for Obama, since he neither seems to actually do anything, nor make any mistakes.

[clarice]

I just read that Mr Underpants is talking in the hope of establishing a plea deal.I'll see if I can find the cite.

[centralcal]

I sorta want to laugh out loud at the sudden news that Pantie Bomber is yapping away. Really? Looks like some folks are trying to cover their own bare*ssed bottoms, if you ask me.

[clarice]

DETROIT (WXYZ) - ABC News has learned that the man known as the Christmas Day underwear bomber is cooperating with authorities in what may be the first steps towards reaching a plea deal.

Sources tell ABC that officials are now checking out the information provided by Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab.

Stay with Action News and WXYZ.com for the latest on this breaking news.

[centralcal]

Here is a link to the Corner item - appears the news was obtained from a CNN item.

[hit and run]

Next we'll be hearing that mirandizing the pantie bomber has resulted in 1.2 million jobs being created or saved.

[Janet]

Sources tell ABC...

I'm with you centralcal...Who exactly? I just outright don't believe some news any more. Probably never should have.

[Janet]

**omit probably** Just... Never should have.

[Ignatz]

A little OT, but Christopher Hitchens, staying true to his Trotskyite roots has determined that North Korea really isn't communist or left wing at all. They're much worse, extreme right wingers, apparently because they're racists and everybody knows only right wingers are racists.
Yeah he rights well, and he detests Islamic nutjobs. Otherwise he's a bit of an idiot.

[Jane]

Next we'll be hearing that mirandizing the pantie bomber has resulted in 1.2 million jobs being created or saved.

LOL

They also reported on Fox that his lawyers were working on a deal.

Great. Now we make deals with terrorists.

[Danube of Thought]

It's also my recollection that at the time there was no reason to think that Reid was anything other than an "isolated" terrorist. And five years later the Bush administration was still locked up in litigation over the military commission procedures.

[Jane]

Happy Happy Birthday Hit! I bet it's the best one evah!

[William Shakespeare]

OT

MARK ANTONY on James O'Keefe

"Friends, JOMer's Conservative's, lend me your ears...

If you have tears, prepare to shed them now.
You all do know this Pimp-coat toga: I remember
The first time ever James O'Keefe put it on;
'Twas on a summer's evening, in an Acorn office,
That day he overcame the MSM:
Look, in this place ran MSNBC's dagger through:
See what a rent the envious ABC,CBS,CNN,NBC,LA Times, New York Times,Times-Pacayune,Richmond Times,Huff Post,Dallas Morning News,NYDaily News,The Atlantic,The Hill,Daily KOS,AP,TPM, and Newsweek made:
Through this the well-beloved AllahPundit stabb'd;
And as he pluck'd his cursed steel away,
Mark how the blood and reputation of O'Keefe follow'd it,
As rushing out of doors, to be resolved
If so unkindly knock'd, or no;
For HOTAIR, as you know, was O'Keefe's angel:
Judge, O you gods, how dearly James and Hannah loved him!
This was the most unkindest cut of all;

[Uncle Pinky]

Tom,

That story is by Mike Allen, not Ben Smith. Might want to fix that.

[tailgunner]

'Plea bargain'? Are the feds going to offer him 200 life terms instead of 288?

What have they got to offer a man who looked forward to suicide as long as he could massacre nearly 300 infidels?

And are the feds even considering any bargain that will ever allow this monster to see the outside of a prison cell for the rest of his life?

Holder's 'plea bargain' is meaningless. He is an incompetent, dishonest political hack whose primary motivation is *not* the safety and security of this country...in short, a carbon copy of his boss.

(If you don't like 'carbon copy', tough.)

[matt]

the guy wanted to blow the plane up and take 230 others with him to Paradise and now he wants a plea deal to get his sentence reduced?

Riiiight!

[DB]

For all the chest-thumping about military tribunals, I wish someone would explain why only one, yes one, terrorist has been convicted in a military tribunal. That was bin Laden's chauffeur and he was sentenced to time served and few more months.

At least Richard Reid and that Massoui nut are spending long quiet days in Florence, colorado for the rest of their lives. They will never be released. Fair trial then a life sentence or the death penalty. What's so bad about that? It's the American way.

[PD]

In any case the shoe bomber example is a weak reed to lean on since at that point the Bush Administration was making up their procedure on the fly.

No, it's a perfect reed to lean on, but not in a way complimentary to the Obama Administration: Said administration has been making up their procedure from the beginning, and still is.

[PD]

Except for Obama, since he neither seems to actually do anything, nor make any mistakes.

Obama makes no mistakes?

[narciso]

No it's more like he makes 'all of them' in every conceivable area, of public policy

[tailgunner]

Let me give you an example of what could happen if we bring terror detainees into US courts.

Does anyone remember the school massacre in Beslan, Russia? Islamic terrorists seized a school filled with children.

When Russian security forces stormed the school, terrorists began shooting the fleeing children in the back.

One female suicide bomber detonated herself in the middle of a group of children.

Hundreds of innocent children were massacred by these monsters.

Now imagine the same scenario in a US city where a terror trial is taking place.

An elementary school is assaulted by an al-Qaeda sleeper cell and they announce, via an eager media, that they will execute one child per hour until the detainee is released.

Or how about terrorists discovering the name and address of a member of the jury.

The news one morning will describe in horrifying detail how, overnight, the juror and his entire family were tortured to death before the house was burned to the ground.

And this does *not* have to happen *during* the trial...just within a month or two afterward.

Do this a few times and you'll never get another guilty verdict...or another willing juror.

Are you going to force American citizens to endure this, Mr Holder?

Are you going to protect these jurors forever, Mr Obama?

[Dave (in MA)]

They will never be released. Fair trial then a life sentence or the death penalty. What's so bad about that? It's the American way.

Since your lot is so keen on extending Constitutional rights to non-citizen enemy combatants, what happened to the presumption of innocence?

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SHH!

[fdcol63]

If Holder can get a jury of the terrorists' "peers" together, shouldn't they be on trial, too?

[Neo]

Let’s hope Obama does better with the Russians, Chinese, French, British (ooh), Israelis (ooh), Indians, Pakistanis, and Iranians (ooh) …

The administration on Monday asked Congress for more than $7 billion for activities related to nuclear weapons in the budget of the National Nuclear Security Administration, an increase of $624 million from the 2010 fiscal year.
NNSA Administrator Thomas D’Agostino defended putting more money into the programs, saying the U.S. needs the best nuclear weapons facilities, scientists, technicians and engineers as it moves toward eventual disarmament.
“This budget is implementing the president’s nuclear vision,” he said.

[Neo]

It could be said that "shoe bomber" Reid was Mirandized before anyone realized that it was a bad idea. So what is Obama's excuse ?

[PDinDetroit]

It could be said that "shoe bomber" Reid was Mirandized before anyone realized that it was a bad idea. So what is Obama's excuse?

Bingo! We have a winner!

[PDinDetroit]

I am all for torture being used on these Idiot Militant Islamists, but c'mon isn't leaving Indy Skid Marks in your diaper from a failed Suicide Attempt in a Failed City enough embarrassment for one lifetime???

[motionview]

And while Guantánamo was the least worst, there are others on the list that might be the next-least worst.

I do miss Rummy-speak.

[Cecil Turner]

This is repeating myself, but . . .

Richard Reid was believed to be a lone nut:

U.S. law enforcement authorities have found no connection between the man and any terrorist groups, sources said.

By the time that was disputed (and eventually disproved), he'd already been charged. And though most have forgotten, after the facts started to come out, the judge in the case so feared his transfer to a tribunal that he entered a "do not move" order:

In presiding over the Richard Reid case, Judge Young was the first to challenge such dubious prosecutorial maneuvers. Reid, a British citizen accused of trying to blow up a jetliner, was such a likely candidate for designation as an enemy combatant that Young issued an emergency order in March 2002 to block the defendant's transfer out of the jurisdiction. [emphasis added]

And though he should've been transferred immediately, there was no general concern over the case, in large part because it was viewed as a bit of a joke. (The picture of Reid looking like a goofball after being subdued and drugged on the airplane undoubtedly added to that misimpression.)

Abdulmutallab was known to have terrorist ties before he was apprehended. His is the second attempt of a known terrorist MO, and his status as an Al Qaeda operative is undisputed. Treating him as a common criminal in the face of what is obviously an ongoing attempt to down airliners (in which he was merely an expendable pawn) is clearly inapt.

[J. Peden]

It could be said that "shoe bomber" Reid was Mirandized before anyone realized that it was a bad idea. So what is Obama's excuse?

[nice move!]

Maybe Obama's excuse is that everything Bush did was wrong? Like changing the idea that we should treat terrorism as a "crime" which, yes, at the time was more of a circumstantial mistake in Reid's case, to a more full blown wot.

Lost in his Fantasyland, Obama apparently thinks it's easy to just do the opposite of what Bush did and not incur or suffer any consequences from reality, which for him doesn't seem to even exist.

[Soylent Red]

Obama apparently thinks it's easy to just do the opposite of what Bush did

I've come to the conclusion that this is the essence of policy formation for this tent full of clowns.

In fact, it is really the essence of Barack Obama himself: You must love him and let him do what he wants and heap laud and awards on him because, in the end, he is not Bush.

[Malaysia Jane]

It's fairly amazing to me that the panty bomber is talking because his family convinced him to. The same family that warned the US and the US ignored. It seems like this Nigerian family has more common sense and integrity than the entire White House. But I could be wrong.

[Pofarmer]

It seems like this Nigerian family has more common sense and integrity than the entire White House.

That wouldn't take a lot.

[Rob Crawford]

I've come to the conclusion that this is the essence of policy formation for this tent full of clowns.

Come now, that's simply not fair to clowns. On occasion, they can be amusing.

[davod]

I an annoyed that a number of Republican politicians and conservative commentators do not appear to know the difference between the shoe bomber and the Christmas bomber. They either leave the analogy untouched or agree that both parties are at fault.

[davod]

PS:

The issue is not that the guy is now talking (The Admistration said they were in the process of negotiating a deal with this guy), it is that they lost a month.

The FBI and Justice need to forget about the HIG and concentrate on developing a PNG - Power Negotiating Group.

[Mark @ Israel]

Hi! such consistency which is pointed out has something to do with unfinished political agenda.("'special methods of interrogation,' and what others called torture."--- whatever method employed to settle the issue of terrorism after 9/11 is to sensationalize that they are doing something but behind that is oblivion.I would rather believe the ideas presented by Ground Zero.