Kill Me Now (While I Drone On)

Tobin Harshaw, writing at the Times Opinionator blog, surveys the "assassination" debate - by what authority can Obama and the intelligence community target American citizens abroad with Predator drones?

I will restate one of my points inexplicably overlooked by Mr. Harshaw:

First, the President's power is hardly unlimited, so Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh can relax.  Although it is not subject to formal checks in this drone example, officers in the military do not take an oath to follow every order the President issues; they have sworn to uphold the Constitution and follow lawful orders.

As we saw with the warrantless wiretapping program (link), the chain of command has surely lawyered up and persuaded themselves that their safeguards and targeting procedures have kept the drone program legal. It would be interesting to know their reasoning, and I don't know whether it would be persuasive, but there are plenty of targets (such as Rush) that would obviously be out of bounds.

So one helpful starting point would be to clamor for the legal opinions which surely exist in support of this program.  The ACLU recently started down this road.  [Another terrific starting place is the work of Ken Anderson; I noted this piece from Jan 9 arguing for a US reliance on self-defense law rather than an rules on armed conflicts; on Jan 27 Mr. Anderson tackled the targeting of Americans abroad directly; and this paper seems to cover the waterfront.  Excerpts below.]

A second tack would be for people with a legal background to speculate on what such an opinion might look like, or what process it might require to get an American on to the "hit list".  (Glenn Greenwald could actually make himself useful here, but he is too busy battling strawmen.)

The mysterious AllahPundit threw out this suggestion:

One possibility would be to go to some sort of court and present evidence that the suspect has effectively revoked his citizenship by levying war against the U.S., but that would cause problems potentially in cases where the feds have to quickly.

Maybe.  Here is what looks like the relevant treason clause (my emphasis):

Citizenship and Naturalization - INA §349

(a)--A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality -

...

(7)--committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of Title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of Title 18, or violating section 2384 of Title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.

A trial would work, but a trial in absentia?  Very tricky - under civilian rules, the accused can implicitly waive the right to confront their accuser after the trial has "started".  For Ira Einhorn, that meant arraignment under state rules; IANAL but I believe Federal courts "start" with the trial itself.  Neither format would work with the rogue Imam Aulaqi.

And courts martial?  They too seem to require a physical presence at arraignment.  And were these "public" trials which took place under the radar, or was it a proper Star Chamber?

I'm stumped.  There may be rare and creative exceptions to the physical presence/confront the accuser rule, or the legal edifice being used with the drone program may have an entirely different foundation.

But I am sure there is one, and I am sure someone in Holder's DoJ has written or endorsed it.  I further bet some of it could be declassified and released - if there are "only" four Americans on the hit list after all these years, we are not talking about a fast-pace, quick turnaround situation as with wiretaps.

I am not sure how many righties will rally to this, but I am sure the hope and changers will.  And since Holder was so keen to release the torture memos, it would be riotous to hear him explain why these must be kept under wraps.  Well, assuming he is still making decisions.

Let's cut to Stuart Taylor:

As my National Journal colleague Shane Harris detailed in his January 9 cover story, human-rights activists, U.N. officials, and others are beginning what promises to become a concerted international campaign over the coming decade or more to brand such drone attacks as war crimes -- at least when they are conducted far from Afghan battlefields and especially when they are ordered by a Republican president. (See "Are Drone Strikes Murder?" NJ, 1/9/10, p. 21.)

It may take years to materialize, but the coming clamor to prosecute U.S. officials for Predator "war crimes" may well echo the current clamor for "torture" prosecutions.

The Obama administration should be pushing back by forcefully explaining why the Predator attacks are consistent with both international and domestic law.

Such a statement would have special force if it came from Harold Koh, Obama's top State Department lawyer. A leading international law scholar and former Yale Law School dean, he has been close to the same left-leaning human-rights groups that are laying the groundwork to challenge Predator attacks.

Maybe a congressional committee could help things along by asking Koh, who suggested repeatedly that key Bush policies violated international law, to explain why Obama's policies do not.

Obama has played this game from the other side, so he has to know where this is headed.

MR. ANDERSON:  From the Jan 27 post:

I will say in conclusory fashion that, no, it is not somehow obviously unconstitutional or unlawful under domestic law for the President, following procedures with respect to either clandestine military operations or covert operations by the CIA, to designate someone as subject to a kill order under either military or CIA operations, even a US citizen abroad.

...

All that said, the involvement of US citizens in jihadist terrorist groups is going to grow — in both in-US plots and, as in this case, someone who has showed up at AQAP HQ.  I don’t suppose that this radical cleric has any more constitutional right not to be targeted than, for example, a US nuclear weapons scientist defecting to the Soviet Union in the 1960s would have against CIA agents shooting him as he made his way through East Berlin.  There is a procedure in US domestic law by which the Executive makes these decisions and the Legislature undertakes oversight.

That oversight procedure would likely benefit from tightening — as I have elsewhere argued, the CIA needs to have the assurance of two things (a) that if accused by Baltasar Garzon of extrajudicial execution in some Spanish court, the Congressional leaders of each party would be entirely implicated, in documents and video, in the decision and (b) that the necessary briefings to ensure that result could somehow be kept out of the hands of Al Qaeda, as in, remain confidential and not be leaked to NYT reporters who know at least two things: no Pulitzer has even been won protecting the national security agencies and some have been won leaking their secrets.  Reports that laptops recovered in the raid that Priest also discusses, in Somalia a few months back, contained catalogued Congressional testimony on US counterterrorism makes (b) unlikely; Speaker Pelosi’s discomfiture at having been caught out dissembling about how much she had been briefed on will, in the nature of Congress, ensures that (a) is also unlikley, as Congress seeks to know as little as it can get away with about these most vital matters, at least if knowing means any form of accountability.

Congress is a problem - they don't want to know and they don't want to keep a secret.

AND BILL CLINTON?  The WaPo, in 2004, described the Clinton years:

There was little question that under U.S. law it was permissible to kill bin Laden and his top aides, at least after the evidence showed they were responsible for the attacks on U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998. The ban on assassinations -- contained in a 1981 executive order by President Ronald Reagan -- did not apply to military targets, the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel had previously ruled in classified opinions. Bin Laden's Tarnak Farm and other terrorist camps in Afghanistan were legitimate military targets under this definition, White House lawyers agreed.

Also, the assassination ban did not apply to attacks carried out in preemptive self-defense -- when it seemed likely that the target was planning to strike the United States. White House and Justice Department lawyers debated whether bin Laden qualified under this standard as well, and most of the time agreed that he did.

Comments

[macphisto]

why not just use the drones to target the "rights activists, U.N. officials, and others"? problem? solution!

[clarice]

Whistle, please, when Koh responds.

[clarice]

Brilliant, mcphisto!

[Danube of Thought]

Let me offer three gems from one of my favorite American military heroes, the estimable W. Tecumseh Sherman:

"An Army is a collection of armed men obliged to obey one man. Every change in the rules which impairs the principle weakens the army"

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over."

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want."

I think it's a mistake to try to reduce it to lawfare.

[Danube of Thought]

When the dust finally settles, we may well have a situation in which George W. Bush, Barack Obama and a number of officials in both of their adminstrations dare not travel abroad for fear of arrest in one of the many free-loading Europussy nations that have allowed us to expend our blood and a great portion of our national treasure in the common defense.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

I agree with DoT, our Civil War is all the precedent we need. If an American citizen joins enemy forces, he's fair game.

[bgates]

Maybe a congressional committee could help things along by asking Koh, who suggested repeatedly that key Bush policies violated international law, to explain why Obama's policies do not.

I'd enjoy hearing that explanation myself.

They could ask the noted Constitutional scholar at the top of the heap, but I worry his answer would be something like, "The Constitution guarantees life, liberty, and the perusal of happiness - but not, y'know, indefinitely."

[JM Hanes]

Going after the folks who commit real atrocities is just too risky and unpleasant for comfy chair critics.

[Danube of Thought]

My theory is you get into it to win it, and you do what you have to do. And when somebody questions your methods afterwards, the appropriate response is "you can't be fucking serious."

Did we agonize this much over the Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo firestorms? Over making the rubble bounce in the smoking charnel house of Berlin? Did Truman consult a lawyer before Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[srp]

Can't we pull a Chinese-embassy-in-Sarajevo and say "whoops, wrong coordinates? We meant to enter the lat and lon of this other dirtbag, not the American citizen?"

[Rob Crawford]

This whole argument is meaningless. An American citizen who attaches himself to a hostile power has no expectation of due process; that was demonstrated completely and utterly during WWII by the complete failure to give a rat's ass.

We're not talking about a guy who's wanted on criminal charges moving to a friendly country; we're talking about people who have sworn to slaughter us taking up residence with other people who have sworn to slaughter us.

[bgates]

we may well have a situation in which George W. Bush, Barack Obama and a number of officials in both of their adminstrations dare not travel abroad

Given the way I think Bush would react to having to stay in the United States the rest of his life, and the way Obama would react to same -

I think I could live with that situation.

[Gmax]

Obama and Holder = war criminals. Where is the courts of the Hague when you need them?

[Cecil Turner]

I continue to believe this whole foofraw is a attempt to find a solution in search of a problem, but . . . It'd be awfully entertaining to listen to an ivy-legal explain why the continuing drone operations are no longer a human rights concern. Let's have some Congressional Hearings!!!

[gus]

This subject is really quite simple.
WWGWD.

What would George Washington do?
January 27th, 1781. Read about it.

[clarice]

If I were president I'd declare war on "left leaning human rights activists"..I'd have an attack a day on them--their hypocrisy, the paltry nature of their pronouncements, their idiocy.
If the West falls , part of the blame has to be placed on the their shoulders.

And why is it that academics who propound the most feckless and foolish notions are those that rise the highest--dean of the Yale law school, indeed.

[PD]

perusal of happiness?

[MarkO]

The new technology of "smart weapons" in the hands of those who practice "smart diplomacy" brings us to this mess. We no longer stress overwhelming force, we are using underwhelming force in an attempt to be gentle and win over the population. What bullshit.

I would not want my son deployed under those orders.

[Janet]

A good article at Villainous Company on DADT (it was highlighted at Am. Thinker)
LUN

[clarice]

"perusal of happiness" according to Chaco is reading porno mags. And whatever SCOTUS does with speech speech--you know like campaign ads--it always protects perusal of happiness..

[Melinda Romanoff]

clarice-

Sorry, I meant the calcium chloride. Still, roll the filled "legs" to the gutter from the open window, use the broom to spread them length-wise in the guuter.

Just the areas where the ice dams normally form, though.

[clarice]

Well, if I ever get out of here, I might try it or the tablets for the gutters and roof,Mel.
We did see a snow plow on the cross street a while ago but for all we could tell it might have been swallowed up in a drift itself.

[Ignatz]

--This subject is really quite simple.
WWGWD.

What would George Washington do?--

I know he's not capable of Washingtonian behavior. I'd be happy if BOzo just asked WWGWBD.

[Neo]

It's simple .. "collateral damage"

Just make sure that there is some non-citizen worth of a rocket attack next to ... whomever.

[Larry Sheldon]

Seems like there is an easier answer--one that surely, all of the lawyers would agree to.

Post a notice to the effect (yes, this is based on an old joke) the US is embarking on a plan to kill everyone near [long list of al Queda and Taliban combatants] and that [name of traitor] is advised to ever be in the company of the named enemy combatants.

Old joke, for the young and unschooled: Old [person associated with a group known for extreme pacifism] tells burglar "I am about to discharge this shotgun aimed at the very spot you are standing."

[sbw]

Seems to me the answer is to declare war. Oh? We have?

Nevermind.

[Melinda Romanoff]

clarice-

Try and keep it off the roof, in, or on the gutters is best. I don't know what kind of roof you have, but damaging it is not part of the game plan. That's why the pantyhose, it keeps it in the right place, over the aluminum, and in solution, reducing its corrosiveness.

[clarice]

My roof is slate and much of it is simply not even reachable from the inside windows. (It's a big house.)

The snow seems to have stopped; snow plows seem to be moving slowly on the big streets, and a small mulberry tree has fallen over the back fence. (As the fence is some 30 feet from the ravine below I probably shouldn't call the tree "small", but compared to the giants which surround it, it is.)

[clarice]

My gutters are all copper..will the calcium chloride hurt them?

[sbw]

[OT]Our editorial said, "To encourage graduates to work in his favored areas, [Obama] has decided to tax you to accomplish his wishes. Obama would impose his choice on your wallet. This is not charity. This is theft."

A reader objected: "Your editorial ... labeled the president ... a thief." suggesting we were "imputing criminal behavior."

No. One does not have to do anything illegal to be a thief. One only has to take without leave, or win by trickery or daring. Neither did the editorial label him a thief. It said such an activity would be theft.

One is a thief only if one does the action. Time will tell if Obama is a thief. We will not have to label him, he will label himself.

[Neo]

I was about half way through this piece "Why are liberals so condescending?" and it reminded me of this conversation from the 1974 movie "Dark Star" ...

Pinback: All right, bomb. Prepare to receive new orders. Bomb#20: You are false data. Pinback: Hmmm? Bomb #20: Therefore I shall ignore you. Pinback: Hello... bomb? Bomb #20: False data can act only as a distraction. Therefore, I shall refuse to perceive. Pinback: Hey, bomb? Bomb #20: The only thing that exists is myself. Pinback: Snap out of it, bomb.

Does "Bomb #20" remind you of anybody ?

[Carol Herman]

Our Mideast 'adventures' were undertaken at the behest of the Saud's. Stupid of us. And, it didn't even cost those sheiks a penny.

It's whom we elect that ultimately makes the biggest difference. Ahead. Just as it did in the past.

Buchanan was the guy who stood on Lincoln's inaugural platform, laughing. He said "he was the last president of the United States. Fella then fell off the stage.

And, Jefferson said out Tree of Liberty wouldn't grow unless we added fresh blood in each and every generation. Americans are in this one to win.

In football, you check the scoreboard, if you're not paying too much attention to the football. Here? Just check Rasmussen. Or as DoT would say: Ras minus 15. Post SOTU. Now.

[Fritz]

I am baffled by this post. I thought if BO won the election there would be no more Muslim terrorism aimed at the US. I thought they only hated the US because of George Bush. BO would heal the wounds since his father was a Muslim and he understood them. We only need to reach a hand out in peace and not war. In fact BO won the Nobel Peace Prize because he has brought the east and west together.

How can he still by using drones to kill Muslims, American ones at that? This makes no sense at all unless he is targeting Republicans who voted against his health care bill.

[DrJ]

My gutters are all copper..will the calcium chloride hurt them?

No. It might give you a bit more patina.

[clarice]

Thanks, Dr J.

[DrJ]

I should ask, Clarice, what mounting screws and other hardware are used on your gutters? If they are a different metal, you may get some local corrosion (see galvanic corrosion). I'd think this would be pretty minor given the times involved.

[bgates]

I'd be happy if BOzo just asked WWGWBD.

Instead of constantly stating INMFBOWGWBD (It's not my fault because of what GWB did).

[clarice]

Dr J, I haven't a clue..I just don't want to see the gutters eaten thru. But this may all be academic..It may be days until the roads are passable and when they are the local hardware stores may be out of the stuff.(ANOTHER STORM IS PREDICTED FOR TUES. BTW)

I think we have a bag of it we use on the steps and walkways but we will need it for that. I'm pretty certain that I will need some gutter repair work when this is all done.

I have deeply slanted roofs and once the snow starts to melt it really hits the gutters with great force--we are talking almost 2 feet in depth. In any event I've learned not to fret overly much about things outside my control.

[DrJ]

I figured you didn't, Clarice.

Again, the times involved would be short -- a few days, I'd think. Corrosion is a pretty slow process. Even in the old days, before cars got better protection (galvanizing), they would last many years under harsher and more prolonged salt exposure with far more corrosive materials.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with the force your gutters will encounter once the snow slides off your roof.

Shall I quote Strauss, from Fledermaus? "Gluecklich ist, wer vergisst, was doch nicht zum aendern ist!" "Happy is he who forgets about what he cannot change." It sounds better in the German.

[Melinda Romanoff]

OK, clarice-

Forget the calcium chloride. You need a snow rake. The idea is to move it before it starts to melt. Especially if your roof pitch is closer to 60 degrees.

This is the one from Ace Hardware, but the handle is only 16' long, you may need to get two, then stick the handles together. I'd bring mine over and do it myself, but I won't make it back by worktime.

This is the one Ace sells. Call first to see if they have one in stock, if not, have it ordered.

It's plastic, so it won't mark up the slate, or the copper, for that matter.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Do not, under any circumstances, use a snow rake on a ladder.

You may as well climb out the window, spread your arms and see how much snow you can take off on the slide down the roof.

[Fresh Air]

Galvanic reactions only occur when two metals differing in nobility are connected through the presence of an electrolyte (i.e. rainwater). So when the metal is dry, nothing happens. It will take years, probably, for corrosion from just rain to occur--unless there is a water buildup somewhere. Galvanic corrosion is why the clamps for copper pipes are made of copper.

Calcium chloride may actually shine up the copper a little bit.

[PD]

Do not, under any circumstances, use a snow rake on a ladder.

Or on a roof.

Er ... wait.

[Melinda Romanoff]

DrJ-

Code for copper gutters would require bronze, copper, or, most likely, stainless fasteners into the tab ends of the rafters, through the fascia boards. 2 1/2" at minimum, every sixteen inches.

Not just because of the galvanics, which are important, but for the ambient air and its salt content.

Unless the gutter contractor cut a few corners, here and there. Your roofer should have also inquired as to whether or not you wanted snow guards for your roof.

They slip under the existing slate, and hold the snow so it melts slowly, not just lubricating the deck for the avalanche to come.

Have these installed and you only have to worry about leaves and branches sitting on the roof.

I'll dig up a pic of what they look like installed.

[sbw]

You won't see a snow rake within 200 miles of D.C. now. But, if the time ever comes to get one, we in the north country like the "Avalanche" that has a slippery path of plastic for the snow to slide down.

[centralcal]

I'm kinda LMAO - visions of Clarice in galoshes, snow apparel, muffler and gloves, with a 16' rake (or 32' if two connected with duct tape?) up to her waist in snow, raking the roof of a 2-story house. Am I visualizing this correctly?

Dear God! I only wish P'UK were here.

[Janet]

You may as well climb out the window, spread your arms and see how much snow you can take off on the slide down the roof.

Okay, this is the method I plan to use...or have my son use. We are pretty cheap, and my son is resilient.

[DrJ]

Not just because of the galvanics, which are important, but for the ambient air and its salt content.

With respect, it is exactly for to prevent galvanic corrosion. Ambient air carries "stuff" with it (including aerosols) that can cause things to corrode because of their different redox potentials.

In any event, I'm pleased that the codes take this into account.

Having been to Clarice's house, I just can't see how she practically can get the roof cleaned off. It is two stories, and the lot does not make things easy.

When I was a kid, we would get on the roof and simply shovel it off. We had a single-story house, without a highly-pitched roof. That was easy.

[clarice]

There are little copper snow guards under the slate on the steeply slanted garage roof..As to the roof on the top (4th floor) I've never been there and it is not fully visible from the street or any window in the house.

Snow rake? You are kidding me, Mel. I'm 68. My husband's 70. Climbing on roofs, out of upper floor windows or to the top of ladders are really out of our reach. When the last storm has passed, I'll deal with whatever I need to.I'm humming Strauss at this moment.

[Rick Ballard]

I think I'd slap the leads from a trickle charger on the copper gutter and see how fast the ice broke loose. What could go wrong?

Maybe I'd talk a neighbor into trying it first...

[clarice]

(House is builti nto a hill--3 stories in front--4 in back) All of it too high for me to deal with.

[Janet]

If Nathan isn't too beat up after sliding down our roof a couple of times, I'll send him over to you Clarice.

[Jim Ryan]

I just read this in NRDT:

...Peter Orszag became a father again last November, six weeks before announcing his engagement. Putting the baby before the ring is increasingly common. But it's still unusual for the baby to be borne by one woman while the ring goes on the finger of another.

They're a couple of lucky ladies to have spent nights of passion with a man of that caliber, aren't they? Mazeltov to the winner! But with a dad like that who needs a pencil-necked geek? Well, I'm sure he's good at something, like lying about job creation.

[Jim Ryan]

If you stand directly below the 1800 lb ice dam and whack it with something heavy, then soon the ice dam will no longer be on your list of problems. In fact, you won't have a list of problems anymore.

[lonetown]

I thought this came under the "Mission Impossible" rule.

We deny any knowledge of your existence Mr Phelps!

[DrJ]

I'll try to spread some cheer to out DC-area residents: spring is coming.

Here the camellias and narcissus are blooming, the oranges are almost ripe, and the wine grapes, roses, hydrangeas are all budding. We're starting the seeds for the summer garden -- ambrosia melons, cayenne and bell peppers, eggplant, various tomatoes (including a tye-dye hybrid), among others.

Take heart! This too will melt!

[clarice]

Dr J--Guess which finger I'm holding up..

[nicep5cm]

Obama is foreign born and it's a CIA secret cause his dad was an informant. So, should he really be involved with assassinating US citizens overseas who aren't classified foreign borns? What's happening to all the informants? Is it an immigration issue? Will the new law help or hurt people like, interpreters or whatever? What about citizenship for informing like Obama, Harvard and everything else? Not suffering enough? Hillary and Plame don't like you? House intelligence doesn't like you women?

Assassinating Americans is not new. CIA has done it for years. They even do it on their own soil. There was that guy who was run over by DSS. Maybe he doesn't like his five year contract, but Hilly was mad. So, maybe we her and her pals happy and get treated with respct like Obamas.

[centralcal]

Excuse me, Clarice. FOUR stories and on the side of a hill?

Who mentioned "avalanche?"

[DrJ]

Do I get two guesses?

[boris]

"too high for me to deal with ..."

In that case you might try ultra-sonic disrupters. You can probably still get the Russian military cold war models on the black market, especially if you know somebody with "connections".

Just remember if you and spousal unit are using two at the same time ... NEVER CROSS THE BEAMS!

[tea anyone]

Hey you guys I have not laughed this hard in months. Thank you Dr J, Mel, Clarice and Janet, oh and can I borrow Nathan for a couple of hours????

[centralcal]

Talked to my son in Pittsburgh - they got quite a lot of the white stuff too. Lost power for awhile this morning.

Watching FNC with their snow report in DC, and I just learned that reporter Julie Kirtz is married to Major Garrett. Who knew!

[Frau Raumschiffahrt]

Due to an ailing knee(?), clarice did not join us on the Sept. 12th march to the Capitol, so she did not see the *super* extension poles used by Mr.and Mrs.Manuel Transmission & Son. They picked the poles up at Home Depot and were able to hoist their signs up high above the crowds. As a result, "Czars czuk!" was visible from a distance.

Neo, Dark Star is a personal favorite. A friend and I were inspired to make rubber stamps and T shirts to celebrate the film. The shirt has the ship on the front and Benson, Arizona on the back. If only BHO had Dark Star's Commander Powell on cryogenic support to consult. Instead he has the three stooges: George, Rahm and David.

[Melinda Romanoff]

clarice-

Why didn't you say you wanted to stay on the ground? This is so much easier now, especially since you probably keep your roofer's phone number handy.

This is sooo much easier on the back. You don't mind carrying a few shells, right?

[Janet]

No problem tea anyone!

[Jane]

You guys are such lightweights when it comes to snow. Clarice, pour yourself a cocktail, light a fire (in the fireplace) and wait until spring. Sheesh!

[clarice]

That's right, frau. I made it to the capitol from a side entrance, looked everywhere for the Czars Czuk sign which everyone I asked had seen though not one could remember where they saw it..Og, well, there's April and my knee seems quite better now.Unless I try a great spread eagle rescue of my roofs and gutters from the a ladder propped against the top floor.

[Jane]

"Czars czuk!" A picture of that sign is my twitter avatar.

[Melinda Romanoff]

If the garage roof looks like this:

Then that is exactly what needs to get installed next summer, everywhere, after the gutters are repaired.

[jimmyk]

Dr J--Guess which finger I'm holding up..

I seem to recall that Dr J used to live in Rochester, NY, where snow like you're getting is a more or less seasonal event. (I also lived there for a decade.) So the good Dr has had his/her share.

[Thomas Collins]

A useful place to start when examining the issues of targeting US citizens for Paradise (with virgins or otherwise) is Ken Anderson. See LUN for some of his thoughts. I haven't looked at this closely enough to know whether Mr. Anderson has followed up the LUN with more thoughts, but the LUN is a good place to start.

In general, with respect to the question of whether someone can be killed under the doctrine of self-defense, it doesn't make a difference whether that certain someone is a US citizen or not. The real issue is whether we can get overwhelming Congressional support when idiotic Eurojudges start issuing arrest warrants for US decisonmakers who were involved in offing the American jihadists. Anderson summarizes both the citizen/non citizen issue and the issue of Congressional support.

[centralcal]

Over at The Corner all the posts seem to be about the DC blizzard. Quite a few beautiful photos too, posted by KLO. And, then there was this short, funny post by Jane's honey, Mark Steyn:

Cheerleader Not Allowed to Have Pom Poms.

[Melinda Romanoff]

DrJ-

I was using my tunnel vision again. Only thinking about the metal on metal galvanic reaction, not airborne reagents.

Which also provide "patina" when they play nice.

Thanks for pointing it out. Don't make me look up the stainless "blend" for the coasts versus inland, which is also "code".

[DrJ]

Yup, jimmy -- the last year I was there we had 130" of snow that winter. And I grew up in the snow belt in Michigan.

The snow never did bother me in Rochester, actually. It was that you didn't see the sun for four months a year.

[DrJ]

metal on metal galvanic reaction, not airborne reagents.

Not to belabor this, but the difference in the metal redox potential is required for the corrosion reaction to occur. Then you need a water and electrolyte, like salt. Aerosols can carry all manner of electrolytes, from salts or acids or bases.

Put them all in contact, and you get corrosion. That's one reason why cars on the CA coast rusted in the old days -- there were a lot of salt-bearing water droplets (or aerosols) in the air.

Leave any of them out, and nothing happens. At least at any appreciable rate.

[clarice]

That's what I have on my garage and I believe on all the sloping sides, however, the snow accumulation is easily over 2 feet and nothing can prevent avalanches in those circumstances.OTOH this hasn't happened here for almost 100 years. Springtime will involve some gutter work and possibly some work on my very old but now battered hedges. C'est la vie.

[RichatUF]

it's off-topic, but the meltdown of the IPCC continues while DC is buried in snow.

EU Referendum details what Pachauri didn't find in Africa.

[DrJ]

jimmyk, what were you doing in Rochester?

[Melinda Romanoff]

No belaboring at all, that's why I said tunnel vision.

At least it's not 35 below...

[Melinda Romanoff]

oh, theme music.

[Frau Raumschiffahrt]

clarice, it seems you are safe. Janet's resilient Nathan has been awarded a temporary niche career which should earn enough for college and any necessary reconstructive surgery. In the meantime, check out Nancy Marchant's newly released, beautiful knitting book, Knitting Brioche. Mine is in the mail. (The author has a good website )

...and perhaps now is the time to check the cupboard and see if the ingredients for a "Dark and Stormy" are on hand. I haven't had one, but with all the snow and our heavy rains, Gosling's Black Seal rum and ginger beer can't hurt.

[hit and run]

DrJ:
Having been to Clarice's house, I just can't see how she practically can get the roof cleaned off. It is two stories, and the lot does not make things easy.

I was thinking the same thing.

You know what else I was thinking?
Is roof snow removal/metallurgy the new Linux?

Here the camellias and narcissus are blooming, the oranges are almost ripe, and the wine grapes, roses, hydrangeas are all budding.

We need a Zin update!!!!!

[Melinda Romanoff]

This solution, as I mentioned earlier, is suitable for all terrain.

Just keep the roofer's number handy.

Oh, and earplugs, definitely need earplugs.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I gots Chicago styles presents for peoples likes you, hit...

[DrJ]

We need a Zin update!!!!!

Not much to tell, I'm afraid. I have a couple of gallons aging (airlocks fitted to keep out bacteria and let CO2 vent). I've resisted the urge to taste it, as young wine is, well, underwhelming. It is in glass, so I'll add some oak chips in a bit.

I had intended to get 50 pounds of Pinot from a friend who grows grapes for a living, since my Zin came out pretty early. Sadly, he lost his entire crop to an early rain. He was thrilled, though, since the insurance covered the crop loss, and he had not found a buyer yet. He grows a high-end grape, and there is not much market for that at the moment.

[jimmyk]

jimmyk, what were you doing in Rochester?

I was on the faculty at U of R from 1986-97. Yes, lots of grey skies, and actually not so many blizzards, but what seemed like almost daily doses of 2-3". I also grew up in Michigan, but in Detroit, not the snow built (still grey skies in winter, though).

I'm guessing you were at U of R too?

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Clarice, Melinda and DrJ:

I grew up in Erie, PA (average snowfall @120"/yr.), living in two houses with gable roofs not unlike the one in Melinda's pic. Never had a problem with snow on the roofs or the gutters that required any drastic action like raking or the like.

I think the problems discussed above are theoretical, not practical. Even though the hundred year storm has just hit the DC area (and it must be pretty big to top the January 1961 storm just before the JFK inauguration) it still isn't any more snow than the snowbelt gets every winter. It is unlikely there is a big problem with snow on a steeply pitched gable roof. The slant should take care of any weight problem, and it is unlikely that the DC weather will stay so cold that it will breed icicles or ice backup big enough to damage the gutters.

That said, my advice is to keep the fireplace lit and have a sufficient variety of alcoholic beverages available for medicinal purposes and other pleasures.

[hit and run]

Jim:
have a sufficient variety of alcoholic beverages available for medicinal purposes and other pleasures.

In the name of temperance,my rule is this should be restricted to days that end in "y".

Melinda:
I gots Chicago styles presents for peoples likes you, hit...

Are they speakers?

Heh,kidding. I love any and all discussions where I can learn something.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Starting with snowy Saturday, right hit?

[clarice]

Jim, my husband and I grew up in Wisconsin and both remember one winter (194o something..maybe '48) where the snow was so abundant I walked to school thru a tunnel shoveled into the sidewalk accumulation and he jumped off the garage roof into the drifted snow.
I am not the world's best driver, but on snow and ice, I am very good to this day. Lots of practice.

[DrJ]

I'm guessing you were at U of R too?

No, the Kodak Research Labs. You may find it interesting that we arrived in Rochester in the same year, though you lasted longer than I did.

It was a terrible time for Kodak. I witnessed the slow dismantling of one of the nation's great research institutions -- Bell Labs and the Watson Research Center went through the same thing. What remains these days is not even a shadow of its former self.

What department were you part of at U of R?

[pagar]

Richatuf, that is a great link on the IPCC fraud at 05:43PM. Combine that with the well written article Clarice has up on American Thinker on
the debt problems in Spain and it looks like the IPCC and EU are both headed downhill fast.

Clarice, your articles are always so outstanding. The debt problem with Spain and some of the other countries of the EU is only going to get worse. It is a timely subject that most seem to ignore. Thanks for your efforts.

[sbw]

Speaking as someone used to the 160-190"/year of snow, most homes around here can take the snow load. The more intriguing problem around here is the repeated freeze-thaw that dams at the eave holding water that backs up above the flashing.

In one spot I have used an axe, a chain saw, heater tape, and other people with insurance and without a fear of heights.

I suspect that in Washington the rooftop insulation is less than in upstate NY which, along with the normally warmer weather of DC, will make the problem academic within days. Do NOT walk underneath the eave.

Don't cha just love advice from people who haven't a clue about your particular situation. This was written more to entertain than advise, as you sit and sip your bourbon on the rocks.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Clarice:

You just have to watch out for the other guy in DC and points south.

Getting hit while stopped at an intersection by a turkey who can't drive on snow/ice just sucks. Especially if the idiot is driving a 4wd car.

sbw: At least we know enough to advise consumption of copious quantities of adult beverages:>) That works in any winter situation. A hot buttered rum toddy might be nice on a snowy saturday.

[clarice]

Thanks,pagar..really I just drew attention to Barcepundit's fine work.

Yes--only once have I had an ice dam problem and that's because I didn't get a final fall cleaning of the gutters done in time.

We have huge trees around the house --including probably the oldest sycamore in DC (it's about 200 y.o. per the arborist) and the leaves constantly fill the gutters requiring that we clean them repeatedly from early spring thru late fall.

[RichatUF]

pager-

A subject that hasn't gotten enough attention. Thanks for pointing out the AT bit.

Wonder if some of our MSM deepthinkers might ask a few democrats about Spain-they have nationalized healthcare and Obama held them up as an example for "green collar jobs"-and they are fast approaching a soverign debt crisis and have 18+% unemployment.

[jimmyk]

Dr J:

Economics (hence my blathering away on the subject here from time to time). Yes, Kodak was in trouble even before the digital age. I think they employed close to 100,000 people in Rochester in the 1980s, and now it's down to a fraction of thats, maybe 20,000.

[clarice]

Surely Friedman or Krugman or both have written about how superior the Spanish/Irish/Greek/Portuguese way of life is? I mean WE pay for their defense and they borrow a lot of money to pay each other tp not work or not work much at all. How bad can that be?

[hit and run]

sbw:
This was written more to entertain than advise, as you sit and sip your bourbon on the rocks.

Our freezer is so stuffed with food that we've taken out the ice tray and shut down the icemaker for space...so we have no rocks. And when the power goes out,like for me last night,you take the vodka and stick it out in the snow bank on your deck. (Friday ends in "y"!!!!)

Because cold vodka helps keep you warm.