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February 08, 2010

Comments

Janet

Cecil...that will probably be how Rep. Jim Moran is finally "unseated" too. Here's his latest jewel from the Fairfax County NAACP's commemoration of the life of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr..."We have a debt to repay, an atonement, because much of that endemic poverty in Haiti is a direct result of racist attitudes in this country."

Murtha, Moran,...it is sad that these men were/are our leaders.

Ann

This is a fun read:

Core Chicago Team Sinking Obama Presidency

I see Valerie Jarrett a lot -- often at Georgetown's power crowd restaurant, Cafe Milano.

In fact, one night when I was at the annual gala dinner of Jim Zogby's Arab American Institute -- an important evening for leading figures from the Arab-American community to connect with the Washington political establishment -- Jarrett was on the docket to be the major keynote speaker of the entire night.

Jarrett, however, had to modify her schedule because of what she said were "urgent duties that were calling her back to the White House right away" and so she gave a few minutes of laudatory comments toward the Arab American community before most people were in their seats between reception and sitting down for dinner. My hosts that evening said that they were mainly interested in hearing her and asked me if I wanted to depart with them for Cafe Milano. I said sure -- and wow -- there Ms. Jarrett was.

The whole thing is really delicious, especially the bust-a-gut laughable, Team B solution.

matt

As the country has tilted towards irresponsibility and libertinism, we have seen the negative reaction to the Christian Right grow.

The hypocrisy and criminality of some of those who have taken the moral high ground has also hurt the general idea of morality, as has the media's willingness to convict by headline.

The old God was an Old Testament God. The new God is the "Buddy Christ" to many, who does not demand too terribly much of us. I'm reminded of Donald Sutherland's role as a minister in the film "Little Murders".

But the reality is, as my father used to say, is that it's about the message, not the messenger(s). And that part of it is pretty clear. I think a majority of the people in this country try to live that way.

The identification of a Religious Right is a political construct handy to far left in its ability to demonize their opposition. Newspeak to the greater extent.That there are fringes on both sides is completely ignored.

Fresh Air

Matt--

The identification of a Religious Right is a political construct handy to far left in its ability to demonize their opposition.

This is why they are desperate to tie the Tea Parties to Christianists or some kind of social conservatism. Fiscal conservatism, even libertarianism, will garner well over 50 percent of the independents every time. Why Republicans forgot this, I will never understand.

pagar

Great post by pops @4:35, sums up the leftist garbage perfectly. It's always the leftist way that we are forced to live under while the leftists claim the religious right is to blame.

daddy

Once we start to hear all this fake memorializing about the great John Murtha and his wonderful Public Service, I hope as a reminder this short video from C-Span will be brought up which is very aptly titled">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywgUCdefSW8"> An Insult To Our Democracy.

peter

Great link, Ann. Loved this part:

Set up a Team B with diverse political and national security observers like Tom Daschle, John Podesta, Brent Scowcroft, Joshua Micah Marshall, G. John Ikenberry, Joseph Nye, Fareed Zakaria, Katrina vanden Heuvel, John Harris, Arianna Huffington, James Fallows, Chuck Hagel, Strobe Talbott, James Baker, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and others to give you a no-nonsense picture of what is going on.


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


ha.. Yeah, those guys should fix it.

Frau Babyfett

peter, Team Miller, Zell and Dennis, would be better than that list.

peter

I never heard of G. John Ikenberry before, so I googled his name. Here's a blog post he wrote. I love the grammatical error near the end. LUN Princeton professors ain't what they used to be.

centralcal

Agree, Ann - Team B is quite a list. Bat shit crazy - the whole lot of them - and Katrina V.H. must have a special insanity category especially for her.

Janet

daddy - what a sad video. Being led by our worst.

Fresh Air

Zbig? Welcome back, Carter!

Cecil Turner

I thought it was "B Team" . . . or maybe Clemons didn't like the way that sounded.

Janet

Frau..while I've got you here, your comment about resilient Nathan and reconstructive surgery after roof sliding was too funny!

daddy

I think that pack of idiots and socialists ought more appropriately be called "The B+ Team."

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Via Malkin:

RUSSELL ASKS FOR PRAYERS FOR MURTHA FAMILY

Announces a Moratorium on Campaign Media Efforts

(JOHNSTOWN, PA) – Responding to the sudden and unfortunate announcement of the death of Rep. John Murtha (D-PA-12th), GOP challenger William Russell has asked all citizens, Republicans, Democrats and Independents to come together and pray for Joyce and the Murtha family as they deal with the tragic loss of husband, father and grandfather. “While Mr. Murtha and I were political combatants in every sense, our family and campaign team asks you to keep the Murtha family in your thoughts and prayers,” said Russell. “Regardless of your political position, you always knew Jack had an immense love and loyalty to his family and the residents of the12th Congressional District.

The Russell campaign is immediately initiating a moratorium on all political media activity for the next five days in respect of the passing of John Murtha. The campaign will also remove all political references to Mr. Murtha on the Russellbrigade.com website immediately.

It is the wish of the William Russell for Congress Committee, that the passing of Mr. Murtha be treated with the utmost respect and decency by all…

JM Hanes

Thomas Collins:

"I think she has a substantial base of support that goes beyond the conservative movement."

I'd be interested in knowing where you see that.


Porchlight:

Point taken on Reagan, but he also got the equally famous "Reagan Democrats" on board. While I believe executive experience is critically important and admire Palin's work as Governor in Alaska enormously, I'm just not convinced that it really scales up to Reagan's tenure in California, or to the Federal Government very well. She's a great survivor who isn't afraid to take a stand and defend it. I'd certainly grant that she's also way more qualified than Obama, but IMO, there's hardly a potential candidate who isn't.


Clarice:

I could be wrong, but I expect the press may lose interest in Scott Brown pretty quickly, and of course the anti-RINO faction on the right is already making noises. In any case, I sure hope we won't be looking for our next Presidential candidate in Congress!

One of the problems I see is that there is not a lot of room in the typical MSM spotlight for others who need to be making more headway. I'm not trying to blame Palin for that, but it is, in fact, why she herself was careful to stay out of Scott Brown's way. Perhaps it's easier to understand what I mean by contemplating where we will be if Palin ultimately decides not to run.

Jane

I just don't get the whole "problem" with the Christian Right.

The problem is injecting it into the platform. A pro-life view is equally as annoying as a pro-choice view to a lot of people who think: You do your thing, I'll do mine.

Over at NRO K-Lo barely utters a word unless it is anti-abortion. I have no problem with her belief but I don't want it part of my political party any more than I want pro-choice to be part of it.

I have the utmost respect for religions and the religious. But the moral issues are not things I want served up with my politics - on either side of the aisle.

Anyway, I assume that's the problem.

Porchlight

JMH,

Maybe the secret sauce is that after sucking up media oxygen for two years, Palin won't run, and all the anti-Palin folks will be so relieved that they'll be thrilled to pull the lever for Romney or whoever. (Not Huckabee I hope.)

Re: the Reagan Democrats, remember, first Reagan defeated the country club Republicans in his own party, and then spent a few years courting centrist Democrats (many of whom were socially conservative as well as fed up with Carter). Result: 1980.

But this all takes time. Not yet sure Palin has the time or wants to spend the time (and she doesn't have Reagan's resume, certainly). Not sure if the country has the time, either, given the way things are going.

Melinda Romanoff

matt-

The rise of he Religious Right, in the eyes of the MSM, seemed to coincide with the rise of Reagan and their distaste for his folksiness. With Ralph Reed and Jerry Falwell bouncing about, the MSM found their punching bag in the form of these two as conniving individuals, ready to slap all interlopers and sinners in the town stocks. It Appeared to me to be their grasp at an explanation for his appeal, which they, naturally, couldn't understand. Thus began the construct of the Religious Right as a bogeyman.

That's the way it seemed to me, at the time anyway, just a construct of their own dim imaginations.

It will continue, right through the death of their institutions.

cathyf
For me, the issue was ethics. I just don't believe it is okay to lie under oath, even if it is "just about sex" and the numbers of people who defended that really offended me.
For me ethics, too, but not just the perjury part. For me it was about turning the taxpayers of the US (me!) into his pimps. There are lots of perks involved in being president, and head of state, that cost us taxpayers millions. I don't begrudge the president his fabulous house, great food, huge security apparatus, air force 1, camp david, etc. But using the taxpayer-supplied personnel sexually is just over the line.
Ignatz

Does somebody have actual nationwide election results that indicate social conservatives are some type of albatross around the necks of Republicans?

All I know is Dems are scared to death of touching the gun control issue, rigidly refuse to say the word abortion, are always primping about how chock full of faith and God they are and can't win a single gay marriage intitative anywhere.

If lefties really thought social conservatives or the Christian right were the political anchors to sink Republicans they would very pointedly be encouraging them to pick up that anchor and try sailing it to the ballot box, not constantly warning their political enemies, the Republicans, how damaging the association is for them.

clarice

jmh, no one should be a front runner now..I meant depth in terms of strategy and policy and we have it and they don't.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

I'd be interested in knowing where you see that.

Me. I am nowhere near being a conservative. In fact, I am anti the purity conservatives, who I believe cost us 2006 and 2008. I am a libertarian independent. I do not like cultural issues becoming federal political policies. They belong with the individual and maybe with the individual states. I happen to be pro-life, but not for religious reasons. To me killing the unborn is murder and I don't like government sanctioned murder of the innocent. I'm a strong fiscal conservative, I think we already have too many laws on the books and throw too many people in jails for stupid stuff, I actively support medical marijuana and the decriminalization of pot. I have no problem with civil unions for gays and straights. Get married by a judge or justice of the peace, get a Civil Union certificate and leave the marriage certificate to those who take sacred vows before God (my own brand of pragmatism). I have a strong faith but can't stand any organized religion and I have no intention, other than for marriages or funerals, to ever step inside a church again. I'm an outspoken friend of Israel and a rabid supporter of the military. I tend to vote Republican because at least some of my issues are in sync with them, whereas I can find little about libs/dems to support. And I see nothing in the communistic progressive agenda that is anywhere close to being good for America. But first and foremost, I am an American who has been Taxed Enough Already.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

BLACKFIVE sums up John Murtha in two sentences:

Representative John Murtha, the first Vietnam veteran to be elected to congress, died today.

It is said it is impolite to speak ill of the dead, so I will just end there.

daddy

Pops post at 4:35 mocking the Police State implicit in the Green Ad, and the tie in here with comments above about stomping down the Religious Right, reminded me of the prescient brilliance of the last few minutes of this wonderful old Twilight Zone episode, ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDn3tcPiMRA&feature=related"> The Obsolete Man.

5 minutes long, and great closing comments by Rod Serling.

PaulL

Boehner and Cantor respond to Ibama's invitation:

LUN

Janet

Exactly Ignatz! The MSM is NEVER working in the best interest of conservatives. Don't believe a word they say about what the Republicans need to do.

clarice

The Boehner and Cantor response is wonderful.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Mudville Gazette has a long piece on Murtha. The money line:

"I will pause now to say something nice about him: he was never convicted."

jean

In 1980 when Reagan was elected President 56% of the voters considered themselves Democrats.20 something Republicans.The Republican establishment did everything in their power to deny him the nomination

PaulL

Clarice,

It sure is. Looks like Republicans are way too smart to get suckered.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

For JMH:

Tea Party Majority

Scott Rasmussen finds that 75% of likely voters are either "very angry" or "somewhat angry" about the federal government's current policies. A plurality of 45% are "very angry," up nine points since September. A mere 19% say they are not very or not at all angry about the federal government's policies.
Rick Ballard

The Boehner/Cantor response seems to be the promised "strong letter to follow". It's a very well crafted effort with some good armor piercing arrows included.

BO better hide from BOzo this evening - his ribs are definitely at risk.

clarice

Of course, the Boehner and Cantor response will not get much play so the Reps will have to do something dramatic to get it covered.

Fresh Air

Geez, PaulL, I would have rather they responded with: "Drop dead."

Never put something out that can be used against you later. Why imply a new proposal is acceptable for discussion if you have 72 hours to look at it? Why not just say, "The American people have resoundingly spoken and said, No. We will be glad to meet to begin drafting a new bill, from scratch, without mandatory insurance, with interstate purchasing, tort reform, etc., etc."

Make them pass the thing with reconciliation. Then let them suffer the consequences. Give no quarter. These idiots are the run and about one week from completely cracking. Help them!

Sara (Pal2Pal)

New Marist poll shows Obama losing independents 2-1.

Rick Ballard

FA,

I believe that "drop dead" is a reasonable summary of what was said in the letter - the other interpretation is actually one letter shorter but "drop dead" is more family oriented.

I'd say that there is no need to rush on booking a room for the meeting.

Ignatz

--I do not like cultural issues becoming federal political policies. They belong with the individual and maybe with the individual states.--

Sara, there was essentially no organized religious right until these issues were federalized by the left and most of the efforts since then by the religious right has been to get the feds' nose out of where it doesn't belong.
It has only been the refusal of the feds and the courts to stop usurping state and individual rights that has spawned the large majority of federal efforts by social conservatives.

Captain Hate

Boehner and Cantor respond to Ibama's invitation

Wow, that's not from the Frumsie/Cwissie/Porker/Meggie Mac/Neut/AllahPuke let's all sing kumbaya squish wing of the Repukes.

I agree with Clarice that the MSM will do their best to ignore it lacking something compelling like stapling it to Murtha's coffin.

centralcal

Rick B., I think you summarized the letter correctly (both interpretations).

daddy

Damn Whales.

First there's not enough of them, so the Fed's decide to shut down all industry along 3000 miles of Cook Inlet in order ">http://www.adn.com/front/story/1086815.html"> To Save the Diminishing Whale Population.

Now we find, that in the next Inlet over, Prince William Sound, (about 6 miles as the crow fly's) ">http://www.adn.com/money/industries/fishing/story/1129678.html"> there's so many unexpected Whales showing up and chowing down on Herring that the Herring population is in crisis.

Well I'm being tongue in cheek, since one populations Belugas and the others Humpbacks, but just like the Global Warming fiasco, it highlights our hubris and ignorance in truly understanding what the heck is going on with nature. It is also especially interesting in that just yesterday the Fed's decided their "Improve the Beluga Whale Food" (Salmon) population project up near Fairbanks had turned out so backassedly disastrous, that they want to ">http://www.adn.com/front/story/1127640.html"> spend 10 Million Dollars to undue the damage they did to the Salmon Spawning Environment during their last bit of Eco-Engineering.

Wonder if you'll hear about this in any of your local or national Newscasts?

Captain Hate

daddy, catch any basketball yesterday?

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Sara, there was essentially no organized religious right until these issues were federalized by the left and most of the efforts since then by the religious right has been to get the feds' nose out of where it doesn't belong.
It has only been the refusal of the feds and the courts to stop usurping state and individual rights that has spawned the large majority of federal efforts by social conservatives.

Exactly!

Jane

Cathy,

I never thought of it that way - I just saw Monica as a consenting adult.


centralcal

Well, on the same day I gripe about Dan Riehl, doesn't he go and post something I actually rather agree with?

One Jelly Donut Away From Catastrophe

And, yes, it is about Megan McCain.

daddy

Damn it all Captain Hate, Why weren't you watching SuperBowl yesterday. You un-Amrican or something?

Ignatz

--I never thought of it that way - I just saw Monica as a consenting adult.--

Yes, IIRC it was Juanita Broaddrick who apparently declined to grant consent but was still visited with all the charms of the Hot Springs Romeo.

Captain Hate

Now now; I paid rapt attention to the Super Bowl and was rewarded by seeing Maryland athletic director Debbie Yow singing and some geezer with his gut hanging out lurching around a stage lip synching CSI themes. WTF was that?

Pops

""A pro-life view is equally as annoying as a pro-choice view to a lot of people who think: You do your thing, I'll do mine. ""

Drinking and driving?

Slavery?

Sale of body parts?

Elective amputation?

Child labor?

Perhaps, very late term abortions - say the last 9 months of life, rather than the first 9? I mean, that is when those precious babies get to be the most expensive in terms of healthcare, long term care, etc. Imagine the burden they are to their families? Certainly you wouldn't force a women to have the burden of supporting her Mother?

I can't find 'you do your thing I'll do mine' in the Constitution? It does however mention a Right to Life...but I guess that only applies to speckled owls and blind salamanders..which Congress apparently can determine when their lives begin because they protect their eggs, their nests, even their surroundings.

Extraneus

RFK, Jr. 15 months ago: Global warming means no snow or cold in DC

In those days [of Camelot on the Potomac], I recall my uncle, President Kennedy, standing erect as he rode a toboggan in his top coat, never faltering until he slid into the boxwood at the bottom of the hill. Once, my father, Atty. Gen. Robert Kennedy, brought a delegation of visiting Eskimos home from the Justice Department for lunch at our house. They spent the afternoon building a great igloo in the deep snow in our backyard. My brothers and sisters played in the structure for several weeks before it began to melt. On weekend afternoons, we commonly joined hundreds of Georgetown residents for ice skating on Washington's C&O Canal, which these days rarely freezes enough to safely skate.

Meanwhile, Exxon Mobil and its carbon cronies continue to pour money into think tanks whose purpose is to deceive the American public into believing that global warming is a fantasy.

UPDATE: RFK, Jr. never saw this much snow when he was a kid.

Ralph L

I thought the Green Police ad was hilarious, but it can't be good business to mock the desires of your customer base.

But using the taxpayer-supplied personnel sexually is just over the line.
One big Clinton lie that slid under the table was the timing of their "relationship." She said she moved to a paid job after the blow job, he said before. Her version made her testimony absolutely germane to the Jones lawsuit, one of the requirements for perjury.

daddy

Captain Hate,

Thankfully I missed it.

Caught your comment a few days back that it was upcoming, but came in yesterday from an all niter from Tokyo and hit the sack. Tried to watch the 1st half of the Super Bowl but was out like a light. Woke up just at the start of the second half, and thankfully never spotted any Turtle-Heels highlights (or lowlights as the case may be) on ESPN etc since it was all SuperBowl. Just now googled the bad news and winced. Yeeesh.

Hopefully I'll be more fun as a punching bag next game. Ughhh!

bunkerbuster

the "Tea Party" is comprised mainly of identity conservatives too stupid to fathom that the GOP actually loves socialism. The "free markets" rhetoric is actually code for: give me all the money, i.e. funnel cash away from urban lower-middle class and poor people and to the suburban middle and upper-middle class and the military.

``Socialism for me, capitalism for you'' is the real GOP slogan.

glasater

Hampton Pearson is just reporting on Kudlow's show that Zero is NOT going to scrap the current healthcare bills in response to Boehner and Kantor.
Sure hope I heard that accurately.....

Ralph L

I think the anti-rel right thing is similar to the anti-Palin--as much class snobbery as political.

My b-i-l just loves to sneer at them, but since he's been more than 150 lbs overweight his entire adult life, he has to find somebody to look down on.

cathyf
...President Kennedy, standing erect as he rode a toboggan in his top coat, never faltering until he slid into the boxwood at the bottom of the hill.
Um, yeah, he was standing erect because he was wearing a back brace. Which the press covered up. And covered up why he was wearing the brace -- Addison's Disease. And covered up that the drugs he was taking were mind-altering substances that cause personality changes and impair judgment.

Yes, he was standing erect...

Fresh Air

Rick B & Centralcal--

I hope you are both right. I have become unfortunately conditioned to assume that invertebrates are running the Republican party. When dorsal spines appear unexpectedly I have a tendency to miss them and concentrate on the visible phylum Cnidaria.

Fresh Air

Glasater--

I really, really think the Mediacrats should pass this 2,700-layer crap sandwich so the American people will no with precision who to un-elect this November. Talk about doing your opponent's work for him!

pagar

Ignatz, read your comment on the (Still all about the Credit swaps)post last night concerning the State of Cal Shredding Records of Convicts. Have you heard more about this?
It is hard to believe that they would shred the only records on these inmates.

Captain Hate

daddy, in all honesty I just can't take as much pleasure in beating Ol' Roy as Saint Deanie. Plus there are some Hole fans that post at a Terp bbs who I respect more than some of my fellow Turtles. Kind of like you. So I'm a bit conflicted...

Plus as I said before Roy is gearing up for Title 3. So, as at least 3 people (thanks Melinda) have sung, "The Thrill is [kind of] gone".

Remember how gracious I am in the future when things are different...

Porchlight

To folks who would prefer to keep abortion out of national politics, I see your point - I'd rather it be kept to the states, too. But as Ignatz points out, it was the left who first federalized this issue.

I would also point out that abortion was just about the only issue that delayed Obamacare long enough for Brown to be elected. When you need every arrow in your quiver....you need every arrow in your quiver.

Rick Ballard

Glasater,

I do not believe that the author of Dreams From My Sperm Donor will allow BOzo to remove the stinking corpse of HCR from his neck. BOzo intimated as much when he made the remarks concerning his aspiration to be a one term mediocrity, remembered only for his failures (that's how I remember it, anyway).

He must animate the corpses of HCR and Air Taxes or face seeing the truth about his sordid past splashed across every remaining failing propaganda organ on the planet. He will fail in his efforts unless moderate Dems agree to commit political suicide on his behalf. I don't see that as being a probable outcome and I look forward to hearing from the author of BOzo's autobiography prior to the '10 elections.

Captain Hate

but since he's been more than 150 lbs overweight his entire adult life, he has to find somebodyuse a mirror to look down on his feet.

Melinda Romanoff

Not to jerk things around much, and staying away from any "rakish" commentary, but Wretchard nails Ibama to the proverbial (insert well known Christian symbol here).

Really insightful piece.

royf

Of course, the Boehner and Cantor response will not get much play so the Reps will have to do something dramatic to get it covered.


Looks like the best way to do that is have Sarah write it on her hand during a speech.

clarice

Now, there's a thought!

pagar

"To folks who would prefer to keep abortion out of:

"UNREAL: DHS Collected Information on Wisconsin Pro-Life Activists Even Though They Posed No Security Threat, Attempted to Destroy Copies of Report

I'd be willing to bet there has been no change in DHS collection of Info, and that they are not collecting info on those who insist that they have a right to kill inconvenient babies.

bunkerbuster

"Small government" conservatives who also want the Feds involved in deciding who can marry whom?

The problem with the Christian Right is that it deprives the GOP of any and all libertarian legitimacy.

That's why I loved Ron Paul in 2008 campaign. In the debates, every time Romney or McCain or Giuliani made their faux libertarian noises about "freedom" and "free markets," Paul would simply remind them of their long track record of supporting statism whenever doing so was to their political benefit.

Libertarianism is a key theme among independent voters and the GOP and/or Tea Party can't expect to win many of them when they're being led by people who want to use the state to cram their religion down childrens' throats...

clarice

bunkerbuster, t.r.o.l.l. does not spell brainiac.

boris

funkybuttster should go stink somewhere else

Soylent Red

A pro-life view is equally as annoying as a pro-choice view to a lot of people who think: You do your thing, I'll do mine.

That's moral equivocation hiding behind the mask of libertarianism right there. "Doing your thing" is a lot different than "doing whatever you want", particularly when it conflicts with another human life, and more particularly when that human life has no subsequent recourse.

The act of abortion would never have occurred to the Founders as a legitimate "choice" based on their understanding of Natural Law. Natural Law is the concept from which "endowed by their Creator" is derived, and from where all of our liberties ultimately reside. So they could have just as easily come to an anti-abortion perspective by reading pagan Cicero as from reading the Christian Bible.

A specific religion is irrelevant to the issue. If you understand the argument for where your rights come from, you must be against abortion until such time as you can prove a fetus does not come from an act of a Creator.

If you do not believe in a Creator that endows rights, you run into two problems (in this world anyway). First, you must pin your own endowed rights to some other argument than the one offered by the Founders. Second, you still cannot infringe on my First Amendment rights to remain true to my religion by not funding abortions. Either way, you back yourself into a corner.

So the problem, as I see it,is not one of whether abortion is a moral violation, but rather, whose job it is to make and prosecute laws protecting endowed rights. The wide variance in religious and political opinion suggest to me that the only way to do this is by going pre-Roe vs Wade and bringing the decisions back to the States. Which is how, IMO, it was intended anyway. All States will have laws IAW the Constitution, but each State will determine the application and penalties for their own laws.

Thus, Sarah Palin and a national Republican Party should only take the position that until such time as a fetus is proven not to be a human being, it must be treated as such as determined by the individual State in which it resides, in accordance with his or her endowed rights.

But hell...I'm no lawyer. What do I know? Let's argue about the Religious Right some more.

Rob Crawford

Anytime a jerk like robertson opens his mouth about some tragedy being God's punishment, the meme gets a new injection of life.

And yet, when environuts say similar things from the POV of their fanatical faith, they get ignored or, sometimes, applauded.

Robertson deserves the barbs he receives, but the environuts deserve to be chased from public life.

Fresh Air

LIbertarianism is annoying club of people whose favorite pastimes are pointing fingers at people and smoking pot. Glenn Reynolds' favorite excuse phrase, invoked probably hundreds of times by now is, "...if I were a Republican." Oh, well do tell. What would you be then? A person absolved of responsibility for fielding an electable candidate or voting for one?

Though I do find economic libertarians compellingly interesting, marrying laissez-faire capitalism to Ron Paul Nuttery or Pat Buchanan/Ross Perot Isolationism is lazy way to round out a political philosophy. And that plus drug legalization makes a hydra-headed monster that is far scarier to the swing voter than legions of thumping evangelists.

Also, I hate Nick's leather jacket and T-shirt. James Dean he ain't.

Soylent Red

Anytime a jerk like robertson Danny Glover opens his mouth about some tragedy being God's punishment proof of global warming, the meme gets a new injection of life applauded or ignored.

FIFY

Rick Ballard

I wonder if the Christian Right boogieman could beat the CO2 Monster in a fair fight? I would note that the thread theft and trollery began far before the second rate stinker showed up.

I believe that the Democrat propaganda organs are going to have to report the Boehner/Cantor response to the President. Perhaps Sarah could issue a statement indicating that, should a meeting actually ocurr, she would love to be there as a correspondent for Fox?

Fresh Air

Soylent--

I agree with your statements regarding natural rights and libertarians. But (a) I don't think they can be read out of the conservative movement so quickly because their grounding isn't as spiritually grounded; and (b) natural rights are quite often alienated from citizens by laws. The natural right to live, for example, is taken away by capital punishment. I like the rhetorical flourish of the "natural rights can only come from one source," which also restates the argument as one over whether that source exists and is believed in. It doesn't really get the atheist down the road much.

Boatbuilder

I know many churchgoing evangelicals. I know many outspoken "secular humanist" liberals. I don't really understand either persuasion. What I do know is that at no time has any evangelical ever presumed to tell me how to live my life, except as an invitation (which can be annoying, but . . .) and I have never felt that they looked down on me for not living as they would hope. I cannot say the same for the secular humanists, whose pious invocations, sneering putdowns and outright impositions are omnipresent.

clarice

I do not know how accurate this monograph is though it rings true--abortion was not always illegal in colonial America and its use varied from state to state and among ethnic groups.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10297561

I expect that like easing a suffering terminal patient to an earlier, less painful death, the practice was also not unknown to colonial physicians under extreme sircumstances.

boris

"It doesn't really get the atheist down the road much."

It can be argued the surest way humans will achieve immortality and something like divinity is through a belief system based on the their existance.

It seems to me that comtemporary athiests would generally disagree with that. "Get real ... the only path is pure materialism, the mumbo jumbo can only distract and mislead."

Dunno about that. My POV is the value of Christmass to children is independent of the existance of Santa Clause. I think it activates a component of human nature that needs to be there.

Boatbuilder

Or maybe it's just that I don't run into too many evangelicals at cocktail parties...

narciso

Possibly, but it comes too many times, in letters to Salon, of the typical moonbat variety, to seem reliable

Soylent Red

FA:

With regard to:

(a) I don't think they can be read out of the conservative movement so quickly because their grounding isn't as spiritually grounded

The atheist is free to adhere to the Constitution by whatever justification he or she chooses. But they must acknowledge that the Founders presumed a Creator in their justification for the tenets of the Founding Documents. Thus when a self-proclaimed libertarian throws the Founders, or the Constitution in my face as a justification for amoral behavior, they can only do so out of ignorance. With Paul-istinians, this goes without saying.

(b) natural rights are quite often alienated from citizens by laws.

Of course that's the case. But that is by the consent of the governed. I voluntarily tolerate an abridgment by The State of my endowed rights for the purposes of protecting me, adjudicating disputes, etc. My natural rights do not cease to exist simply because I choose to allow The State to do these things.

The fetus does not get to make this choice, and even if he/she could, wouldn't the choice be the same choice as assisted suicide? And who would make the choice to allow the fundamental right of their own life to be not abridged, but ignored entirely, for the purpose of making mommy's bad decision making have no consequences?

Rob Crawford

I like the rhetorical flourish of the "natural rights can only come from one source," which also restates the argument as one over whether that source exists and is believed in. It doesn't really get the atheist down the road much.

An open-minded atheist (there are a few), could simply substitute Evolution for Creator; both are descriptions of mechanisms. It comes down to the same point: by our unique nature as human beings, we are endowed with certain inalienable rights.

Soylent Red

under extreme circumstances.

This being the salient point, which I'm not arguing. But it's not the pro-"choice in extreme circumstances" position I'm arguing against.

It's the "my body, my choice" position that dominates the other side of the issue that I'm opposing.

clarice

I understand that was your position, Soylent.

I was dealing with the common argument that such practices for any reason ere unknown and illegal when the constitution was written. They were not. There was a great deal of difference between the states.


And now for a bit of sherbet: France's Philisopher king is exposed as an idiot:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7019866.ece

Seems like that sort of thing is happening all over.

Jim Miller

Biden better for the country than Obama? Seems obvious that he would be, at least to me.

Extraneus - I'm not surprised to learn that your friends are Catholic. Many on both sides of the Protestant/Catholic divide still harbor some of the old fears.

And the wish to control other people's lives can be found almost everywhere. In Washington state, the governor, Christine Gregoire, has been trying to force all pharmacists to prescribe the morning after pill, regardless of their religious convictions. If I were a pharmacist, I wouldn't have trouble prescribing it, but I think we ought to be able to tolerate those few that do, just as we have made room for conscientious objectors in the military.

MikeS

Fake but accurate

The Sex Life of Immanuel Kant and that its arguments were solid, whether written by Botul or Pages.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

(a) I don't think they can be read out of the conservative movement so quickly because their grounding isn't as spiritually grounded

This is the kind of thing that turns off alot of us. Why would conservatives want to "read out" anyone? This is the purist view of either the whole loaf or none at all. Might work religiously, but it is very stupid politics.

The Tea Party movement isn't anywhere close to being a conservative movement. Sure there is much that appeals to conservatives, but there is much that appeals to moderate Dems and Repubs and certainly to large numbers of people who don't identify with evangelical thought or even care what religion anyone is.

And someone upthread used gun control/gun rights as a conservative issue. It isn't. Sure again there are lots of conservatives who are against gun control, but there are probably just as many gun rights advocates who shudder at being called a political conservative.

Libertarians of the pure variety are isolationist and anti-military, so there is no home there for most of us who are right leaning Republicans with a strong libertarian bent.

Many are like me. They think there is place for government in protecting the citizenry from foreign and domestic terrorists and should take care of the nation's infrastructure and foreign policy, but otherwise pretty much get out of the way. Reagan brand Republicans.

I cannot imagine Reagan wanting anyone "read out" who is still willing to pull the R lever at the polls.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

BTW, on that Feb. 11 threat from Iran - Feb 11th is Sarah Palin's birthday. Do they know who they'd be messing with? :):)

Melinda Romanoff

clarice-

I've been hoping for BHL's comeuppance for quite some time. He's just insufferable at times.

I think he meant to say; "It’s the role of the philosopher to blow."

But I have a hard time with most philosophers.

Question, are philisophers derived from Philistines? (another keeper)

Ralph L

use a mirror to look down on his feet.
And to find other parts. We've learned to avoid political discussions, and I suppress the fat jokes. You'd think people schooled in the horrors of racism, sexism, and hobophobia would realize how unattractive it is to sneer at other people, to say nothing of hypocritical.

Melinda Romanoff

Time to fade all.

G'night.

Sue

RCP has Obama's average at 47.9 favorable to 47.0. Yowza. He is tanking bad.

glasater

One of the reasons I quit watching C-span in the beginning of the Bush admin was they kept having that idiot Levy on all the time as the arbiter of all things wrong with the US.

Years ago when I was an R precinct committeeman I had our local ProLife organization run another candidate against me just 'cause I wasn't the strongest advocate for their position.
The ProLife folks are darn hard workers though and would do much if not all of the conservative 'scutt' work like doorbelling and making the phone calls. So I have a ton of respect for how hard they would work for conservative candidates.
Finally came around to more of the prolife position in my own thinking or better saw that point of view in a clearer light as I matured:)

Rush has some thoughts on the GOP meeting with Zero at this open link.

Soylent Red

Libertarians of the pure variety are isolationist and anti-military

Not true Sara! Don't confuse libertarians with Paul-istinians who claim to be libertarians.

True libertarianism, in my understanding of it, is not anti-military, just anti-draft and anti-federalization. The support a military comprised of volunteers organized by the States and lent to the Federal government for national defense under a declaration of war. Main difference is that conservatives favor a standing Federal military which can be used at the discretion of the CinC, funded by Congress, for expeditionary wars.

Also, libertarians are not anti-war necessarily. The predominant opinion is that was is OK as long as it is declared and funded by Congress for the purpose of national defense. Foreign intervention is what they don't like, even when a case can be made that it would serve the purpose of national defense or humanitarian necessity. However some are OK with intervention in the case of intervening for the cause of National Liberation vs Statism. So where an intervention serves the cause of weakening Statism worldwide, it's OK to intervene.

Paulbots don't like war because why should we give up good red blooded American boys for some lousy brown people, and most of them aren't even Communists for God's sake, and particularly when George W. Bush says we should do it since he spoke to Vincente Fox and didn't enact comprehensive deportation legislation and eliminate the Fed, and have you visited our website? and one time, at Ron Paul camp...

jimmyk

Not true Sara! Don't confuse libertarians with Paul-istinians who claim to be libertarians.

True in theory, but in my experience libertarians tend to be isolationist. I think Fresh Air mostly nailed it upthread:

Libertarianism is annoying club of people whose favorite pastimes are pointing fingers at people and smoking pot... Though I do find economic libertarians compellingly interesting, marrying laissez-faire capitalism to Ron Paul Nuttery or Pat Buchanan/Ross Perot Isolationism is lazy way to round out a political philosophy.

The first sentence made me laugh, reminding me of my college roommate, an avid libertarian primarily because he wanted all the recreational drugs he used to be made legal.

I've often thought I would be a libertarian if it weren't for all those other libertarians. The deeper problem is that libertarianism is incomplete--it just has nothing to say about big questions like war, abortion, of how one should live one's life, so the people who call themselves libertarians all too often fill in the gaps with carp like isolationism.

daddy

Thank you Captain Hate

Similar sentiments from my side, so from now on, if you aren't playing my guys (or Scott Brown's daughter Ayla at BC) I'm rooting for you. And most especially against Dook.

Melinda,

Really enjoyed the link to Wretchard and his link to Jay Cost. Excellent reading, the both of them.

jimmyk

I just saw Monica as a consenting adult.

How about a college professor and a student? Usually this is just someone in a position of power over someone else and using it get something he otherwise couldn't get. With perhaps a quid pro quo for the student. The Monica thing seems similarly inappropriate.

daddy

Found this bit of Global Warming Fun:

Britain's New Scientist has a story up saying ">http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18457-water-vapour-worse-climate-change-villain-than-thought.html"> Water vapour is a much worse climate change villain than previously thought (Something like 30% more responsible for Global Warming than previously thought)

Big deal, ho hum, another fallacy uncovered amongst the AGW promotors right?

Well the fun part is that of the 63 comments in response to the story, 27 have been disallowed by the Editors for "Breaching Comment Terms".

Think the Brit Public is pissed? Bloody Hell right-o!

It truly is a shame P'UK isn't here to revel in this.

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Wilson/Plame