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March 22, 2010

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hit and run

Do the 400,000 people who will immediately get jobs from this bill,according to Nancy,have to wait until Obama signs it tomorrow?

Can you just imagine how excited those 400,000 are right now!

anduril

Life expectancy? Robert Reich said a year or two ago that when this passed nobody should expect to live longer than their parents. The would be part of the cost savings.

To repeat: "The problem is, even if the middle class votes in a whole new class of rascals, the rich will probably be able to buy off the new rascals."

Part of the tactical problem is that the subsidies will affect enough of the strapped middle class that many will ultimately decide that they prefer the devil that they're now becoming acquainted with to the demonization of what America could become if we got our house in order.

Danube of Thought

Hey, and it's going to unleash a wave of entrepreneurialism, too!

Excellent William Tucker article explores the fundamentals. Highly recommended.

Captain Hate

ust how much of a change should we see in life expectancy?

I'm not sure how much of a change but it will surely decline as the same happens with quantity and quality.

anduril

Sadly, DoT, it depends on what you mean by "work." Obamacare will, indeed, "work" for Dem constituencies, and they hope to turn ever larger portions of the populace into dependent constituencies. That's their definition of "working."

RB says BOzo Sux

"And here is a puzzle for the mathematically minded - just how much of a change should we see in life expectancy?"

It will be statistically equal to 0. I suggest using the SSA Life Tables as the standard for comparison. The methodology, algorithms and projections can be found here.

Porchlight

And here is a puzzle for the mathematically minded - just how much of a change should we see in life expectancy?

This will be very difficult to measure once the reform takes hold, because increased coverage will be offset by Medicare cuts which will result in failure to extend lives of seniors that would have been extended in the same circumstances pre-reform.

Also unmeasurable is the effect of denial of other treatments based on input from new cost-cutting, oops, I mean efficiency-producing bureaucracies (aka "death panels"). We don't know what those effects will look like for a long time.

Even further out are demographic changes. Wealthier people are typically more healthy, but do not reproduce at the same rate as the less wealthy, especially in Western Euro-style welfare states (Steyn has written on this). So as the wealthy have fewer and fewer children, and the percentage of children born to poorer parents increases, that in turn will have some effect on life expectancy.

Al Asad

Let the parsing begin. although this is just beginning, it is a process that will evolve. The Genie is out of the bottle, and you Industrialists can fulminate and desperately attempt to exert power over the smoke and persuade it to return to the Source, but it is a Fools' Errand. You're up to it.

But it might be better to invoke your vast pool of 'scientists' to media blitz the Glenn Beck Show to fight Cap and Trade. We'll all be listening with rapt attention.

Rob Crawford

And here is a puzzle for the mathematically minded - just how much of a change should we see in life expectancy?

Bad metric. The government will simply change to European-style counting -- ignoring live births below a certain weight, premature births, etc. -- and life expectancy will increase based on the accounting change alone.

Neo
TEZPUR [India] (ASSAM): It's ready to explode and not just in the mouth. The 'bhut jolokia' - recognised as the hottest of spices - will pack a punch when mixed with handgrenades to deal with terrorists, as trials by Indian defence scientists have shown.

A defence spokesperson said scientists at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in Tezpur in northern Assam were making a trial run of the hand grenades and other repellents by using the bhut jolokia.

"The chilli grenade is a non-toxic weapon and when used would force a terrorist to come out of his hideouts as the smell is so pungent that it would literally choke them," R.B. Srivastava, a senior scientist and director of the DRDO said.

What do you want to bet that this device is labeled a "torture tool"

Danube of Thought

It will not be measurable, and any change that does take place in either direction (down is unlikely for many reasons) will be impossible to attribute to anything in the legislation.

A much more reliable and easily measure metric will be average waiting times for various procedures. I'm offering five to one that they increase across the board.

Porchlight

Add one more thing to the difficulty in measuring changes - the Baby Boomer retirement wave will consist of some of the healthiest old folks we've ever seen, due to a lifetime of high quality care and healthier lifestyles to match. So it will be difficult to compare their overall health to the health of seniors before them.

Sue

Obviously, the "lives saved" notion does not mean Obama has made others immortal.

Will that number of lives saved be determined the same way jobs saved was? Maybe Obama could use "saved or created" lives? He is the Messiah, after all.

Danube of Thought

it depends on what you mean by "work."

Well, it's Tucker's term, but I take it to mean "avoid ultimate insolvency."

hit and run

TM:
And here is a puzzle for the mathematically minded - just how much of a change should we see in life expectancy?

I think in terms of Obama's two signature words, hope is the better fit in this instance.

However,since last night's vote,I now expect to live 7.614 years longer than I did on Saturday.

Danube of Thought

Ah, we racists are resurgent again, per the L.A. Times:

Millions of white men who voted for Barack Obama are walking away from the Democratic Party, and it appears increasingly likely that they'll take the election in November with them. Their departure could well lead to a GOP landslide on a scale not seen since 1994.

For more than three decades before the 2008 election, no Democratic president had won a majority of the electorate. In part, that was because of low support -- never more than 38% -- among white male voters. Things changed with Obama, who not only won a majority of all people voting but also pulled in 41% of white male voters. Suddenly, there were millions more white men voting the Democratic ticket.

Danube of Thought

Another readily ascertainable measure will be the number of states that dissolve their Medicaid programs. Many if not most of them will have substantial incentive to do just that.

Will someone here volunteer to start keeping the list of unintended consequences?

Patrick R. Sullivan

This is just the camel's nose under the tent. It took Canada 40 years and 4 major pieces of legislation--in 1946, 66, 77, and 84--to get into the unhappy position where it is illegal for a citizen to pay a doctor to treat an illness or injury.

The way Canada and Europe paid for their stupidity was to cut their defense spending to the bone, btw. Al Qaeda should be cheering the Dems action.

Danube of Thought

Cap and Trade, should it pass, is actually fine with me. I'm already rich, and the fact that it will deny millions of Americans the opportunity to do what I did is regrettable for them and the country, but I'll still be fine. That many who could have done so otherwise but voted for Obama and now cannot makes me particularly happy.

Still waiting to hear just whose lives will benefit from its passage, and how.

Danube of Thought

The way Canada and Europe paid for their stupidity was to cut their defense spending to the bone

Worth noting that they could do so because the US picked up their slack. No one will pick up ours.

Becky

Well, I don't know about saved or extended, but I think we may not see so many created................(supposedly reproductive health (abortion) was too important to actually defund)

Captain Hate

Glad to see in the memorandum beside this box that Frumsie weighs in on this; there's absolutely zero chance I'll click on it and give that squishy douche a blog hit. I'm sure it's a continuation of his eeyore whining.

Danube of Thought

Here's a delightful comment from an unhappy wacko at Reason.com:

No matter how you spin it, today is a huge loss for Progressives. We did not get Universal Health Care. We did get even a public option that would put us on equal footing with the private insurers.

No. The Democrats who we put into office handed us to every business interest, the pharmaceuticals, AMA, AHA, and even the insurance companies, anyone but the public who had a stake in the outcome got his pocket padded with the public's money.

The Democrats even had the mendacity to say they stuck it to the greedy interest while being on our side when all the while they made deals with those corporations with which they sold us down the river.

You would have to be blind not see that, or you are a pretty big flunky for the Democratic party, and don't know where you should really stand.

Damn it. We voted them in, Pfizer didn't!

I use to pass by the local free clinic on my way to the office. Most mornings I saw a bone thin old homeless woman walking to and from there. It was later reported in the paper that she had a typhoid infection and those that came in contact with her needed to be treated.

If this loon is that distressed, how bad can this thing actually be?

Porchlight

Someone said in the other thread that Gibbs was sending out Frum's column today.

And I'm sure Allahpundit linked it with approval at his earliest convenience, but I refuse to go to HotAir to check, since I have quit that joint for good.

Pofarmer

Cap and Trade, should it pass, is actually fine with me. I'm already rich, and the fact that it will deny millions of Americans the opportunity to do what I did is regrettable for them and the country, but I'll still be fine. That many who could have done so otherwise but voted for Obama and now cannot makes me particularly happy.

DoT

I understand your sentiments. But there are many of us that will be in similar situations that DIDN'T vote for the loons in power, that might be feeling a bit bitter.

Rob Crawford

If this loon is that distressed, how bad can this thing actually be?

Loons like that won't be pleased until the counter-revolutionaries are marched off to their deaths. There's still a lot of horrible that can happen before that.

Bill in AZ

"Do the 400,000 people who will immediately get jobs from this bill,according to Nancy,have to wait until Obama signs it tomorrow?"

219 of them will need to wait until January, though I doubt they'll be doing much in their current job after November.

Danube of Thought

An extremely interesting article from the Institute of Public Affairs, outlining where we are headed.

I understand, Pofarmer. You will have no more supportive ally than me in the effort to defeat this insane measure, and to punish those who advance it.

Rob Crawford

And I'm sure Allahpundit linked it with approval at his earliest convenience, but I refuse to go to HotAir to check, since I have quit that joint for good.

Allahpundit is a back-stabbing coward. His eagerness to believe Clyburn et. al. and throw conservative protesters to the wolves based on the statements of some of the most corrupt people in America was disgusting.

Speaking of which, K-Lo at NRO bought the same line of bull.

The depth of the double-standard amazes me. Leftists can commit any violence they desire, and it's studiously ignored by the press -- both "mainstream" and conservative. The flimsiest accusation against conservatives, though, is treated as universally true and the merest tip of the iceberg.

Pofarmer

Whaddaya expect Rob. We're just a bunch of Redneck, recidivist, teabagging, racists.

Danube of Thought

The final passage of a landmark healthcare overhaul brought relief for investors on Monday, sending shares of insurers and hospital companies higher after a year of volatile trading on concerns over the burdens from reform.

Hee hee hee....

Porchlight

It's true, Rob. To this day I get looks of surprise from liberals when I mention the leftist bomb plot at the RNC in 2008. They literally have no idea what I'm talking about. What do you suppose the national media reaction would be if the Tea Partiers were found to have planned such a thing?

I even had a semi-right-leaning friend in MN, who followed those events very closely on the ground, tell me that those people were "violent because they were violent - it had nothing to do with their politics." Yeah right.

Captain Hate

If this loon is that distressed, how bad can this thing actually be?

If it ends up producing landslide voter turnouts against it that lead to repealing and/or leaving it unfunded and ultimately turning sentiment away from a public option, it could be their worst nightmare.

Or it could just be the latest example of lefties being very unhappy people no matter what.

Pofarmer

The problem with simply leaving it unfunded,is that it could always later be - funded.

cathyf

Here's a question for the mathematically-minded who believe in God: the woman who was going to find the cure for some terrible disease is in high school today. Because of the changes wrought yesterday, she is not going to major in biochemistry when she goes to college, she is going to major in sociology. Instead of taking a biochem degree to the job at the biotech startup that never starts up because there is no market for new treatments, she takes that sociology degree to her job working on the government panel to ration care.

All of that hypothetical is, by definition, unknowable to us. But for those who believe in God, we believe that God knows all of this. He who has numbered every hair on your head knows the name of each and every person who dies from that disease because last night the Congress and the president destroyed the system which would have cured them. He knows the grief and suffering of every child and spouse and parent and friend left behind.

We call things "acts of God" when we don't know who is responsible or whether anyone is responsible. That's what we call them. God, on the other hand, knows exactly who is responsible for all of them.

Drider

I have a question about the soon to be "Government approved health insurance policies".

Anyone know what they are, I ask because in my business(being hard times and such) we have a 3000 deductible and premiums that are as fiscally attuned as possible.
I ask this because I'm concerned that this may not meet government approval, they may want policies that require much higher premiums and much smaller deductibles.

Oh wait, I don't think anyone has actually read the bill, oh well, I guess I'll just wait in suspense to see how bad I take it in the shorts.

Rob Crawford

To this day I get looks of surprise from liberals when I mention the leftist bomb plot at the RNC in 2008. They literally have no idea what I'm talking about.

Did you know that during the 2004 campaign, the AFL-CIO coordinated simultaneous attacks on Bush-Cheney campaign offices in multiple states? That campaign volunteers were injured during these attacks?

Oh, they'll declare they were just "protests". Yet the "protesters" battered their way into the offices, assaulted people, and vandalized the offices.

Absolutely nothing was done to the attackers, and the attacks have largely faded from memory.

cathyf
I'm already rich, and the fact that it will deny millions of Americans the opportunity to do what I did is regrettable for them and the country, but I'll still be fine.
You really think so, DoT? How long will your wealth last after the hyper-inflation, when a cheeseburger happy meal costs $100,000?
Sue

The Texas reps that kicked ass on the floor yesterday have been filtering in and out with Mark Davis, WBAP all morning. They sound tired. Anyway, I don't get the idea that they are going to be running on repeal it. They have begun the "fix" it. They said they would work to repeal portions of it.

I'm thinking they could successfully run on repeal and win. What they are worried about, my words, not theirs, is the pre-existing conditions for children. They could repeal the entire monstrosity and then resubmit that portion of the bill. After that, they could work on bi-partisan healthcare reform.

Also, Rep. Barton said come fall, when seniors are getting ready to vote, they will also be receiving a letter from their medicare advantage policy holders saying so long suckers. That was going to happen regardless of what happened last night, so Obama is going to be walking a tightrope selling this thing.

Anyway,

William Teach

Hmm, as soon as life is extended, isn't that bad for global warming? Oh, the conundrum of libtards!

Rob Crawford

How long will your wealth last after the hyper-inflation, when a cheeseburger happy meal costs $100,000?

Yeah, but the gubmint subsidy will drop the price of the wilted lettuce, slimy onion, and moldy grain salad down to $10,000! Because it's HEALTHY!

Sue

God, on the other hand, knows exactly who is responsible for all of them.

Which makes one wonder why the United States is not alluded to in Revelations. Did God forget about us? Or something else?

Porchlight

Rob,

Actually I didn't know that. I heard about some other things, like the Repub GOTV van tires being slashed in Wisconsin, but I didn't hear about coordinated attacks by the AFL-CIO. And I was following closely (though not as closely as I did in 2008).

So, case in point.

Rob Crawford

Can you imagine, Porchlight, had the opposite happened? We'd still be hearing about it today.

Gabriel Sutherland

The really bad news here is the work of Media Matters and the Center for Independent Media, now The American Independent News Network which operates the Washington Independent, the Minnesota Independent and the Iowa Independent are two organizations that are highly effective in their approach to swaying public opinion for news viewers that receive their news mostly or entirely online.

Breitbart is declaring war on these organizations. However, I don't know if they need to be destroyed. Rather, they need to be studied. They need to be deconstructed for what they truly are. They are components to an investor base. Their founders are not just news gatherers. They are strategic thinkers in terms of media and the advancement of their capital interests.

Jeff Goldstein is right about how these organizations corrupt our language. The fissures in conservatism go much deeper than merely trying to stop a takeover of health care. We are losing the language war.

Have you met a young Obamabot lately? It's alarming in their approach to debate. They truly are robotic. The only way to break through with them is with kitchy keywords that they like.

Captain Hate

Have you met a young Obamabot lately? It's alarming in their approach to debate. They truly are robotic. The only way to break through with them is with kitchy keywords that they like.

That's a failure of the education system and its inability or unwillingness to nurture and inculcate critical thinking. No wonder Ayers and his ilk are regarded as "experts".

MayBee

Does anybody know how the insurance exchanges are going to offer lots of options (that don't currently exist)?

Danube of Thought

You really think so, DoT? How long will your wealth last after the hyper-inflation

Cathyf, my life expectancy is between five and ten years. Were it longer, I would have much greater personal concern. As it is, I am gravely concerned for my heirs. They will live in a country that would be unrecognizable to me, and I am profoundly grateful to have had the life span I've had during the era when I had it. The world will never seen a country like that again. And I think that Barack Obama would applaud the preceding sentence--do you doubt it?

Dave (in MA)

Bill Whittle:
"These Marxist bastards have no idea what is coming for them. No idea."

Danube of Thought

MayBee, the last I knew (or thought I knew) every policy would have to fit one of a half-dozen federally-prescribed templates. Marketplace feedback will have no role whatsoever in any changes to them; all changes will be politically determined.

in_awe
Also unmeasurable is the effect of denial of other treatments based on input from new cost-cutting, oops, I mean efficiency-producing bureaucracies (aka "death panels"). We don't know what those effects will look like for a long time.

Sure we do - just look at the article published a year ago by Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel (Rahm's brother who was appointed to the WH Health Care Advisory Panel) where he made clear that economic and societal value will drive treatment availability. In a nutshell if you are younger than 15 too bad because the government hasn't yet invested enough in you to warrant keeping you alive; if you are over 55 too bad because you are on the downslope of tax generation and moving into entitlement and high medical needs years to warrant keeping you alive.

As I recall, an earlier iteration of the bill included a proviso that prohibited any future attempt by Congress to remove or modify the panels that would make these evaluations. Yep, this Congress is so sure it got it right that no future legislation can ever modify it's handiwork. I wonder if that provision is in the bill that passed and if so how often will we see it in bills passed on amnesty, cap and trade, etc.

Makes you proud to be an American, doesn't it. Seig heil Herr Obama, Frau Pelosi, Herr Reid.

Danube of Thought

The idea that "we can live with this, we just have to improve it" is precisely what Mark Steyn has been talking about for a long time. Once this thing it is in place, it's just the Tweedledum Party and the Tweedledee Party haggling over who can manage the welfare state more efficiently.

Start without me...

Rob Crawford

As I recall, an earlier iteration of the bill included a proviso that prohibited any future attempt by Congress to remove or modify the panels that would make these evaluations.

That kind of language is utterly worthless, BTW. They cannot restrict a future Congress from repealing laws.

Danube of Thought

As I recall, an earlier iteration of the bill included a proviso that prohibited any future attempt by Congress to remove or modify the panels that would make these evaluations.

If so, it is of even less effect that Stupak's Executive Order. No congress can constrain a future congress in any way.

MayBee

Yeah, DoT, that's what I think too.
These exchanges are supposed to be some magical money saving device, but they seem to me pretty abstract ideas at this point. They certainly don't seem to create an incentive to develop new products to save people money and provide good insurance.
Maybe nobody really expects them to happen.

Carol Herman

It was always politically elected tweedle-dum, and tweedle-dee. I still think the best politicians in the world are OPTIMISTS. When this tanks you're losing the middle. What can happen in November? People just stay home. They carry umbrellas, thinking they're gonna be taxed so high, they have no idea how this will be paid.

While all the "hires" that happen, first, will be ENFORCERS. Should be interesting to watch as they go after people one by one.

I still can't believe I saw pelosi, in a perfectly tailored suit. With matching shoes! Teetering towards the Capitol. With men wearing MATCHING suits & ties! How does such an order go out? Meet Nancy wearing your blue suit?

Then, they changed suits. She came out in battleship gray. Surrounded by her metro-men now in funereal gray business suits. With grey ties. Except for one man, on her left. Who wore maroon. To match her pink blouse. Nope. Your wardrobe doesn't gain you votes. (Though a terrible one can lose you votes.) It just caters to the rule, you gotta make 'pretty visuals.'

I still think the best politicians belong to the OPTIMIST'S CLUB. And, we have very few of them, right now.

Neo

The $64 dollar question ...

with ObamaCare's .. err .. the government's "Medical Advisory Board" now able to make some health care decisions for you, does this undermine Roe v Wade's "privacy" underpinnings, as the government already has a seat at the decision table ?
.. or more simply, could a socially conservative administration now outlaw abortion ?
The answer to that question became a lot murkier last night.

The converse is also interesting .. is the "Medical Advisory Board" unconstitutional because it flies in the face of years of privacy precedents from the SCOTUS such as those built on Roe v Wade ?

Jane

You know I am really pissed about that whole "pre-existing condition" bullshit. First of all, if you aren't insured, don't have a kid. If the state has to pay for your child's birth, the state should put that kid up for adoption.

Since I was about 12 years old my mother warned me to never go a day without insurance because if I did, surely I would get sick and become uninsurable.

People need to understand the consequences of their actions.

cathyf

The health "insurance" system that we have had up until now has actual insurance as pretty much a sideline. The main event is the service that they provide where they manage the financial aspects of your relationships with health care providers. Take my January visit to the endocrinologist:

office visit:
doc wants: $128
hc manager says: $101.85

venipuncture:
doc wants: $30
hc manager says: $7.99

vitamin D blood test:
doc wants: $86
hc manager says: $62.88

TSH blood test:
doc wants: $195
hc manager says: $35.62

T3 free blood test:
doc wants: $157
hc manager says: $36.15

T4 free blood test:
doc wants: $127
hc manager says: $18.86

T4 blood test:
doc wants: $81
hc manager says: $0.00 -- T4 is not a test, it's a calculated value from the T3 free and T4 free tests.

Grand total:
doc wants: $704
hc manager says (and I paid): $263.35

The point of turning the health-care management companies into public utilities is that it changes their interests from being the interest of getting those services as the lowest cost and muscling the hcps when they try to rip off the patients, to just paying off as much money as possible (because they get a cut.)

The mechanism by which health care managers manage costs is by hundreds of thousands of individually executed contracts with millions of health care providers. All of this talk about not doing stuff in the new bill misses the point. The point of the bill is not what it creates (death panels, IRS agents checking whether you bought insurance, etc.) The point of the bill is what it destroys, which is the legal and economic framework by which health management companies can and want to control health care costs.

I think the best analogy is this: right now the law says that everyone is entitled to an attorney, and the government provides an attorney to a person who can't afford one. Suppose we had "legal reform" where the government 1) provides attorneys to everyone, rich and poor alike, at taxpayer expense, but 2) those attorneys only get paid if the client is convicted.

sbw

if liberals are right, health care reform will save tens of thousands of lives every year.

Of course, with Stupak's valiant effort to be sure Obama restated the anti-abortion law, these tens of thousands of lives can be either saved or created.

RichatUF says Obama sucks

These exchanges are supposed to be some magical money saving device, but they seem to me pretty abstract ideas at this point.

Wait til the sharpies at GS get a hold of it. They were able to bury tens of billions of Greek debt, just imagine the vistas this will open for them. They might even stop pushing cap-and-tax as a cash machine.

Try Hang Gliding

Not to mention the lives that wont be saved because no one came up with a cure for some fatal desease due to the lack of inovation.

Try Hang Gliding

**disease***

JM Hanes

Drider:

"Oh wait, I don't think anyone has actually read the bill...."

No need to read the bill now. The law will be whatever the regulators empowered by Congress say it is.

Gabriel Sutherland

The Congress just passed the bill. Speaker Pelosi can now tell the American people what is in the bill.

Frau Vorwaert

Start making that list: "Pooh-Bah, better known as Lord High Everything Else, ... and is known for sticking out his hand for money on every possible occasion for a bribe."

Also, Ben Stein, not surprisingly, is concerned about ObamaCarp. LUN

Frau Vorwaert

Ben Stein LUN

Danube of Thought

could a socially conservative administration now outlaw abortion ?

It couldn't outlaw it. It could, as the law stands now (I think), remove it from the list of covered services.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. In theory at least, a future Supreme Court could discover an emanation from a penumbra in the constitution holding that a fetus is a "person" who cannot be deprived of life without due process of law.

MarkJ

Perfect ObamaCare consumer:

A guy who works his entire life paying taxes to support his "free health care" and who then drops dead of a heart attack the day after his 65th birthday.

scott

To paraphrase Gen. Jackson; "The bamster has his law, now let him enforce it"

"Mr. President, Ted Nugent on Line 1"

It's a Skynyrd Nation!

Gabriel Sutherland

The Hyde Amendment is up for renewal in 2011. If the GOP were to take control of the Congress they can just expand the Hyde Amendment to deny these new funds go to subsidizing elective abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or the threat to the life of the mother.

The left is trying to create fissure between the Catholic Bishops and so called Catholic health workers.

There is a group called Democrats for Life. I'm disappointed that they are buying this executive order crap. So here's the truth.

DfL is one woman with little to no funding base at all. None of the prolife Democrats take it seriously. It faces a near impossible challenge to push prolife policy in the national democratic party that has hundred million dollar prochoice campaign donations waiting for any candidate to say they're a Democrat and are prochoice.

Danube of Thought

Quite astonishing:

A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll found that 59 percent of those surveyed opposed the bill, and 39 percent favored it. All of the interviews were conducted before the House voted Sunday night, but the contents of the bill were widely known.

In addition, 56 percent said the bill gives the government too much involvement in health care; 28 percent said it gives the government the proper role and 16 percent said it leaves Washington with an inadequate role.

On the question of costs, 62 percent said the bill increases the amount of money they personally spend on health care; 21 percent said their costs would remain the same and 16 percent said they would decrease.

MikeS

It is to the Dems advantage that the bill that the HCR bill has many many things wrong with it. It is to their advantage because their primary tactic is to confuse and mislead.

Louise Slaughter demonstrated that tactic yesterday during the rules debate. She repeatedly changed the subject to the weaknesses of Ryan’s “Roadmap” rather than discuss the bill at hand.

The Republicans will have very little power to do anything, even present an argument to the public, unless and until they win a majority in the House. That situation makes it doubly important for Republicans to present a simple argument and avoid being drawn into complex and confusing debates with Dems.

The Dems will lead off today with, “Look at all this free health care stuff. It sure beats doing nothing!” I believe the best counter to that is, “Look at these mandates that cost trillions of dollars and take away your freedom to choose! The alternative to mandates is no mandates. There are many better ways to solve the preexisting conditions problem.”

I'm not referring here to one line sound bites. I think those are useful. But, once the public is presented with the choice between mandates or no mandates, Repubs should resist addressing the many many other HCR issues until after November.

Danube of Thought

A gem from Randy Barnett:

"If the Democratic Party could survive slavery, it should be able to survive the passage of this health care bill. But then again, until the Civil War, slavery was less unpopular in the United States than is this bill."

Porchlight

Fun bumper sticker story linked on the Corner. The blogger and his wife both have "Honk If I'm Paying Your Mortgage" bumper stickers on their cars. The wife parked her car and came back to find this note on the windshield:

He writes:

This happened in a supermarket parking lot, deep in the deepest blue part of New Jersey. This must be going over just swimmingly in Texas and Utah.

MayBee

Hmmm. That isn't my sister's writing, so their must be two conservatives in New Jersey.

MayBee

there

Janet

To state the obvious...I hate giving my disposable income to government. Be it local, state, or federal. I want to give my charity money to whoever I want. I don't care about environmental stuff...I don't want to kill babies...I don't want to fund "get out the vote" drives for people too stupid to go register. The only money we owe is on our house..a conservative 30 year mortgage. We are paying for our kids college because we saved.
I am sick of paying taxes for programs that bail out people that made other choices.
We don't have cable, up until 2 years ago we had 1 car...anyway, life is full of choices. It really is like those citizens that took responsibility for their own lives are getting screwed.

MarkO

I remember the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It represented relief from government oppression. It represented freedom, long denied.

This Obamacare is, as is clear to all but the stupid and the disingenuous, is the imposition of government on our freedom. I see this as the creeping result of those who have learned to take advantage of the generosity of spirit found in our very own protection of the very civil rights they abuse. Let me give you an example. The Fourth Amendment is a declaration of public policy that we will tolerate a certain amount of crime without punishment in return for a certain degree of freedom from police harassment. You see how that is deteriorating. The same holds true with the First Amendment by which we agree to be insulted and to lose in public debate in return for being able to insult and win. That is disappearing under the guise of inclusiveness and tolerance and civility.

I just don't see anyone willing to do what is required to deal with these crazies. In part, that is because those who care actually care to play by the rules. In effect, we have given the advantage to those who care very little about our civil rights.

To me, the only thing that will bring change is for the Republicans to close down the government until the next election. All the lawsuits are just full employment for government lawyers. Let's hire David Boies or Pat Lynch.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

I expect that life expectancy will go down now. Afterall, those over 65, or is it 60 or 55, are expendable, unproductive, not worth the money it might cost to cure their ills or make life worth living again after some debilitating illness, according to the Obamacare minions and Obama himself. Hence, we will see more people die that shouldn't. Broken hip, a death sentence. Treatable cancer, a death sentence. Unemployed and financially ruined committing suicide as their last resort. Or many, like myself, who would rather die than submit to the State controlling everything from cradle to the early grave.

BR

DaveinMA, thank you for the Bill Whittle link! He's flying, so comments there are taking a little while to get moderated. So, since I'm Speedy Gonzales, I'll just post it here, too:)

Thank you, Bill Whittle!

RebeccaH, agreed. (She wrote about the planned takeover of the net.)

Hindmost, those were my thoughts, too, last night: A Civil Cold War. I've heard of leftists infiltrating the Tea Party demonstrations as agent provocateurs to get bad press and I've seen vicious troll impersonators at conservative websites try to disrupt conversation by posting racist and pessimistic items under the names of regular commenters.

"These Marxist bastards have no idea what is coming for them. No idea."

*****

We will win, because we are saner, more powerful and naturally do the right thing.

Ignatz

--To me, the only thing that will bring change is for the Republicans to close down the government until the next election.--

With Lindsay Graham playing footsy with the Dems on Gitmo, cap and trade and immigration good luck with that.

BR

So, now to handling the impersonator trolls, which may very well be an organized leftist activity, not some drunk lone wolf.

We are not racists. We should not be pessimists. And we generally don't use foul language or make sicko jokes. We are constructive in our comments, have healthy senses of humor and the best recipes.

So, besides sending laser thoughts to kill the impersonators, let's all agree never to be pessimistic. That way a troll using our names can be instantly recognized.

If I missed something, add to the list :)

JM Hanes

DoT:

Those percentages are also more significant than they have ever been, because the level of public attention and engagement has never been higher either. I wouldn't reject the possibility of repeal, whether in part or whole, or Constitutional emendation out of hand, however unlikely either might seem. The prospect of governors uniting in opposition to the crushing financial burdens they see coming their way is unlike anything I can recall in my lifetime.

I've long thought that sustained, effective, pushback against the Federal Gov't can only come from state legislatures and governors. They will be the first to recognize and feel the weight of mandates and regulations, and they are far more responsive to their constituents than Federal officials will ever be to the public at large. I'm hoping that enough time has passed that we can now return "states' rights" to the prominent position they ought to occupy in the conservative pantheon. I think there are a lot of unexplored ways to pitch that concept, not least of which, ironically, is protecting our independence in an increasingly interconnected world.

Old Lurker

The Poster said "Republicans", Iggy, republicans. Pay attention.

Sue

It really is like those citizens that took responsibility for their own lives are getting screwed.

Preach it sister. While my lazy ass extended family members have children without fathers to help raise them, draw the maximum amount they can on unemployment insurance before even thinking about looking for another job, etc., etc. And they are counted in those that don't have health insurance. They don't have anything, because they are too lazy to work for it. And I've worked my ass off to put 2 children through college so they would not be burdened with student loans when they began their careers. While their children got freaking pell grants. I could go on and on, but I'll stop. I'm angry today. Angry at liberals. Angry at slobs who want someone else to take care of them when they are perfectly able just not willing to do it themselves. I think I said I was stopping. So I will.

BR

By the way, Daddy, was that you in an earlier thread talking about Palin as carrying baggage, and better to support a Paul Ryan? I didn't think so.

Thomas Collins

Prohibition was repealed. That took a constitutional amendment. I'm not a historian of Prohibition, but I suspect that a day after Prohibition went into effect, most folks wouldn't have been too optimistic about a repeal.

Rob Crawford

And we generally don't use foul language or make sicko jokes.

Speak for yourself.

Rob Crawford

Prohibition was repealed. That took a constitutional amendment.

Because Prohibition was, itself, enacted by amendment. The 18th to be precise.

BobDenver

"So, besides sending laser thoughts to kill the impersonators, let's all agree never to be pessimistic. That way a troll using our names can be instantly recognized."

As long as there is injustice . . . wherever a distress signal sounds among the stars, we'll be there. This fine ship, this fine crew. Never give up... and never surrender.

I left out the Targathian baby part.

hit and run

Sue:
I think I said I was stopping. So I will.

Just don't say good night or it may never end.

Pofarmer

It really is like those citizens that took responsibility for their own lives are getting screwed.

It isn't "like" that, that's what happens, repeatedly, by the hand of govt. I see it all the time through USDA. If you've already been implementing things like erosion control measures, well, that's awesome, but, if you aren't, and the soil is washing away, then NRCS will come in and fix it on the govt dime. There are literally dozens of examples that I could think of off the top of my head, but, the main thing the govt does, is discourage and handicap and penalize those who would do the right thing simply because it is the right thing. Yeah, this health care bill is going to encourage innovation? The only thing it will encourage is folks finding ways to milk the most possible $ out of it for the least possible outlay, whatever that takes.

Dave (in MA)

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2010/roll165.xml:

...
Frank (MA)
Fudge
...

I'd like to apologize for the fact that the 12-year old Beavis and Butthead clone who lives in my brain snickered just now.

Rob Crawford

Dave, that would be funnier if the next guy on the list was Packer.

BR

That's right, Rob! And conservatives have the best sex, too. Remeber that poll that came out during our Plamegate days :) Or was it CBSgate.

Hee, Bob, I'll have to Google Targathian. Does it have anything to do with the Carthaginians?

Anyway, 2,500 years ago - Athenian Democracy.
Time for revitalization of the Western culture.

Janet the Lion of Arlington

...and just a short rant. Drudge has up the line "Kennedy cries...". I do not have the words to describe how sick I am of hearing about that dysfunctional family.
"Kennedy said the health care bill fulfills the legacy of his father"

What legacy?!? The legacy of taking other people's money and then getting credit for being charitable? What did this family do for one sick person with their own money? I know they killed one woman, raped another, perhaps spread around STDs. So they HAVE contributed to people NEEDING health care, but have they ever helped someone?
LUN for the sickening article.

Dave (in MA)

It was probably too much Ambien that set Patches off.

Janet the Lion of Arlington

It isn't "like" that, that's what happens, repeatedly, by the hand of govt.

Absolutely correct Pofarmer.

Dave in OC

I didn't see this up-thread, so I'll put in a LUN "ACORN folds" per Politico. Apparently they aren't just renaming that criminal enterprise, they are really closing shop (if this is correct).

Now back to fixing the floors, I'll check in later...

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Wilson/Plame