Now, A Runaway Prius

A runaway Prius was reported in California.  Apparently that brake-y thing is helpful:

LOS ANGELES (MarketWatch) -- Police in San Diego, Calif., had to assist a runaway Toyota Prius when its gas pedal stuck on a freeway Monday afternoon, according to reports.

California Highway Patrol officers responded to an emergency 911 mobile-phone call from the motorist, who was traveling as fast as 94 miles an hour, according to the San Diego Union Tribune.

The police instructed the driver to use his regular and emergency brakes, and once the car had slowed to 50 mph, he cut the engine and coasted to a stop.

I appreciate the high level of professionalism maintained by the 911 operators, but honestly, how did this conversation unfold?  "Sir, have you tried applying the brake?  I suggest you try that, sir."

I'm glad no one was hurt.

MORE:  The actual scene was much more dramatic than that story that caught my eye:

EL CAJON, Calif. — A California Highway Patrol officer helped slow a runaway Toyota Prius from 94 mph to a safe stop on Monday after the car's accelerator became stuck on a San Diego County freeway, the CHP said.

Prius driver James Sikes called 911 about 1:30 p.m. after accelerating to pass another vehicle on Interstate 8 near La Posta and finding that he could not control his car, the CHP said.

"I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny... it jumped and it just stuck there," the 61-year-old driver said at a news conference. "As it was going, I was trying the brakes...it wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything and it just kept speeding up," Sikes said, adding he could smell the brakes burning he was pressing the pedal so hard.

A patrol car pulled alongside the Prius and officers told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake.

"They also got it going on a steep upgrade," said Officer Jesse Udovich. "Between those three things, they got it to slow down."

After the car decelerated to about 50 mph, Sikes turned off the engine and coasted to a halt.

The officer then maneuvered his car in front of the Prius as a precautionary block, Udovich said.

Now - if brakes and a hill had not been enough, should the officer have pulled in front of the Prius and let it try to push a patrol car?  It would work in the movies.

YET ANOTHER VERSION:  From the LA Times:

[CHP Officer] Landeros didn't know why the driver waited until his speed had dropped to turn off the engine, but the officer speculated that Sikes feared losing the car's power steering.

The officer drove in front of Sikes' Prius to block the car if necessary. But the two cars never touched, Landeros said.

LATE UPDATE:  Michael Fumento at Forbes smells a hoax; investigators think the brakes look pretty good:

(Reuters) - A federal investigation of the Toyota Prius involved in a dramatic incident on a California highway last week found a pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's account of the event, the Wall Street Journal said in its online edition on Sunday.

...

"But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials ... didn't find signs the brake had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time," the Journal said, citing three people familiar with the investigation. (Reporting by Ransdell Pierson; editing by Gunna Dickson)

Comments

[matt]

do we know if the Prius can get up to 90 MPH?

[They'll prius my cold dead fingers.]

There are none so rare
As those who so greenly dare.
Earth in the balance.
===========

[Scrapiron]

Auto's refuse to go fast if you put them in Neutral, for all the dummies that's the 'N'. Let the sucker blow, the toy company will replace the engine.

[Buford Gooch]

Just how stupid do you have to be for it to take the cops to tell you to apply the brakes?

[daddy]

Clarice and other Lawyers,

My beverage has a question.

Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar, just 4 days ago announced he was going to create within 6 weeks a multi-million dollar Climate Research Institute in Anchorage Alaska, because ">http://www.adn.com/2010/03/04/1167889/interior-department-chooses-alaska.html"> "With rapidly melting Arctic sea ice and permafrost, and threats to the survival of Native Alaskan coastal communities, Alaska is ground zero for climate change."

From the story:

"The host institution for the center, to be based in Anchorage, will be the University of Alaska. The Interior Department hopes to have Alaska's climate science center formally established in six to eight weeks."

Yet reading the story we get this:

"Buck Sharpton, vice chancellor for research at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, said a location for the center has not been determined but it's likely to be in a midtown Anchorage rental space away from the UAA campus and near federal agencies such as the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service."

That tells me there is no available room at the University as planned upon and that therefore this new institute must involve a new influx and increase of population to Anchorage.

So my alcohol's question is as follows:

We know that CO2 which comes out of human beings has just been officially declared to be a pollutant. We know that the IPCC and NASA and the President and Al Gore maintain that CO2 coming out of human beings is contributing to Global Warming which is melting the Polar Ice-Cap and causing havoc amongst the Polar Bears and critters in Alaska. So how do I go about suing the Interior Department to ensure that all the necessary environmental impact assessments of all these new enviro-bureaucrats blowing CO2 out their orifices and new office spaces and cars here in "Climate Change Ground Zero" Alaska has been fully considered and taken into consideration by the EPA, the 9th Circuit Court, the IPCC, the Polar Bears, and every other ecologically minded creature on the planet, especially when they have announced they don't even have a location for this multi-million dollar Institute, and therefore can't even have pretended to have considered the full environmental Impact of all these new government hired 'holes belching CO2 into the Arctic atmosphere?

Ludicrous and comical as it sounds, could a viable lawsuit be pressed to legally forestall this Climate Institute until all the environmental impact statements, necessary for everybody else in America, were done for this project, followed by months or years of challenges and dithering by the 9th Circuit Court? MY Bogle Merlot would love to know the answer to that question.

[sylvia]

Even after all the fuss, I have never seen any article or discussion about whether putting the car in neutral works. I have never heard it discussed whether people tried it or didn't try it, or tried it and it didn't change gear, or changed gear and didn't really slow. Maybe there was that one that Tom linked to a while ago about a rental car, that mentioned it, but just one.

[sylvia]

Here's a little more info on that story. LUN

[AL]

“do we know if the Prius can get up to 90 MPH?”

Yes we do. In 2007 son of Al Gore was arrested for making 100 mph in Prius (and marihuana possession, too).

“Let the sucker blow…”

It will not blow. All modern cars have fuel shut-off when engine revs over redline.

“you put them in Neutral”

Gasoline cars use engine vacuum to assist braking. With gas pedal stuck on acceleration there should be little vacuum and little brake assist.

On normal car, I would try to slow down the car by downshifting down to first (I will still have assisted power steering), and then turn off ignition by one click (turning ignition key all the way back locks the steering wheel), and then brake – all cars from time immemorial have emergency vacuum reservoir which assures at least one power braking when the engine stalls.

Prius is totally different matter. There is no downshifting available, and everything is drive-by-wire. But at least power steering and power brake assist are electric, and work autonomously from the engine. I hope that Toy engineers programmed all these emergency electric functions right.

[sylvia]

“you put them in Neutral”

"Gasoline cars use engine vacuum to assist braking. With gas pedal stuck on acceleration there should be little vacuum and little brake assist. "

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying the second statement has anything to do with putting it in neutral?

[AL]

Well, yes.

When gas pedal is stuck close to the floor, there is little power brake assist both in neutral or in gear. In neutral, thought, your muscle power applied to brakes will eventually stop the car. In gear it will barely slows down.

[Stephanie]

I had the same problem in my parent's 74 Cadillac back in the day. Put it in neutral back then (as a 16 yo) and problem solved.

Any 16 yo should be able to puzzle out the solution nowadays... OH wait we are talking about smug Prius owners... nevermind.

[BumperStickerist]

Syliva,

Putting the car in neutral always works. You're no longer adding any energy to the car's momentum.

The only downside is that, if the gas pedal is stuck to the floorboard and you're in neutral, you'd be redlining the engine which could cause it to go "kablooie", necessistating an engine replacement.

Given the depth of knowledge displayed about cars - and I'm no IowaHawk, but I read "The Shell Answer Guides to ..." as a lad - I doubt the "gee, I don't wanna blow the engine" thought occured to these people.

My hunch is that the common factor is that these incidents of unintended acceleration all involved SEIU employees or their relatives.

because conspiracy theories are sooooo much fun.
.

[Rob Crawford]

The only downside is that, if the gas pedal is stuck to the floorboard and you're in neutral, you'd be redlining the engine which could cause it to go "kablooie", necessistating an engine replacement.

No, you wouldn't.

Besides, a Pius? Wouldn't it detect the loss of load and switch off the gas engine?

[Pofarmer]

Auto's refuse to go fast if you put them in Neutral, for all the dummies that's the 'N'. Let the sucker blow, the toy company will replace the engine.

These cars no longer have a direct connection to the transmission from the shifter. If the car is traveling over a certain speed, over certain engine rev's etc, it won't let the transmission go into neutral. Some guys on another forum have tested it out. Also, the key doesn't directly connect to a shutoff switch. It's all fly by wire. Toyota denies they have a serious software problem, but, that's about all it can be.

[Beware of absolutes and certainties, my wise young fool.]

"Putting the car in neutral always works". Must be in Osaka dialect.
========================

[goy]

This whole problem is caused by over-leveraging the common sense and driving skill of Toyota drivers...

[Sue]

I thought the same thing, how stupid do you have to be to not know to put the car in neutral. Then I heard testimony from last week where the gear shift wouldn't go into any other gear until they got below a certain speed. So, lesson here? Drive a Ford?

[J]

Recently popular mechanics and consumer reports illustrated, using a toyota, that with an open throttle, going full speed, the brakes were adequate to stopping the vehicle. They also showed that putting it in neutral would be very effective (I have experienced that myself).
This country voted to elect obama and dems, can we expect them to be intelligent car drivers?

[Sue]

I should have read the entire thread. I see Po already addressed it.

[MayBee]

I kinda don't believe it. It's too convenient.

[Pofarmer]

They also showed that putting it in neutral would be very effective (I have experienced that myself).

Wrong cars?

Cars with different firmware?

Got reliable reports that putting certain NEW Toyata's and Lexus's in Nuetral does NOTHING.

[fdcol63]

Quite frankly, this whole mess makes me worry as we increase the computerization and wireless connectivity of our vehicles and weapons systems.

Imagine the potential for mayhem and destruction that certain Chinese or Russian hackers could cause if they were someday able to compromise a whole fleet of vehicles or a certain brand of microchips used in critical systems.

The problem's not just with immediate effects like this acceleration problem, but the potential for inserting bots, trojans, and backdoors that could lay dormant and then exploited later.

[Jack is Back!]

Prius Hybrid's software issues are sort of like the chronology of AGW.

First back in the 70's it was 'global cooling" then later it become "global warming". And backing it up was faulty data and computations.

With the hybrids it was the brakes back in 2005 (see LUN) and a software glitch. Now it is the accelerator in 2010 and most likely a software problem that they are continually denying.

The more you refuse to consider the other possibilities the more time you lose and make yourself more vulnerable to bad press, lawsuits, public criticism and sales reversals.

First Law of Engineering: debug, then ship.

[MayBee]

We'll see.
But here's Toyota in the spotlight, and suddenly a Prius in California's televised car chase country does a first ever high-speed trip down the interstate.

And NUMI's being closed in CA. There are out of work GM people and SEIU headquarters about.

Just sayin'.

[Danube of Thought]

I think it's a question of price elasticity.

Minus 19 at Raz...

[sylvia]

" If the car is traveling over a certain speed, over certain engine rev's etc, it won't let the transmission go into neutral. "

That's very interesting Pofarmer. I knew there had to be something like that because I had to believe not that many people could be that dumb. Especially a police officer must have known about neutral.

Toyota's engineers probably added that software fix in, not letting a car go into Neutral at high speeds, because they wanted to prevent the engine blowing up at high speeds in N, that the posters above wrote about. They probably never figured anyone would experience 100 mph speeds and want to put into N, to stop the runaway car.

That's why they should never override the driver.

[Bill in AZ]

"MY Bogle Merlot would love to know the answer to that question. "

Daddy, do you have any idea how much CO2 was released in the production of that bottle of Merlot - see, you're part of the problem.

[Sue]

MayBee,

Interesting theory.

[Sue]

MayBee,

I meant to say, you are getting as good as me in these conspiracy theories. Or as bad. ::grin::

[sylvia]

"There are out of work GM people and SEIU headquarters about."

Yeah I have also heard the conspiracy theories about Detroit and Toyota. That this kind of stuff happens to all kinds of cars all the time, and the reason we are just now talking about Toyota now is because of a Detroit conspiracy.

But I'm not buying it. I think this whole media thing started with the 911 tape of the police officer, played on TV and then hering his call for help and then knowing everyone in his whole family were burnt to a crip after that call. That is dramatic stuff. And it got everyone interested in the issue. I am sure if any other car had the same problem, we would have heard about it.

[MayBee]

I am sure if any other car had the same problem, we would have heard about it.

Yes. As I said, it's televised car chase country. You think we're the only two that know such things get attention?

[centralcal]

Speaking of conspiracies, good grief, have you all seen this:

Drudge Banned

Shows how effective he is, hhmmm?

[sylvia]

"Toyota's engineers probably added that software fix in, not letting a car go into Neutral at high speeds, because they wanted to prevent the engine blowing up at high speeds"

You know thinking about my own comment, maybe the engineers should add some software to the car like this.

Let's you want to put your car into N because you have a runaway car at 100mph. You try and switch the gear, but th gear doesn't switch right away and a computer voice comes on and asks you, "Hello. You are trying to switch this car into Neutral at 100 mph. Are you trying to switch this car into Neutral because you have a runaway car? Say yes for a runaway car or no for a mistake."

And then you yell "YES!"

And then the car says. "I am sorry. I did not hear your request. Let's try this again. Say 'yes' if you have a runaway car or 'no' if you don't". And then it goes on.

I think that would be a good fix.

[MayBee]

A better fix would be to have a safety word.
PALOMINO!

[sylvia]

Ha!

[Clarice]

Maybe it could just whistle "Hit the brake, Jake."

[Walter]

Re: Power steering

Oddly enough, the effort required to steer a car at 90MPH is miniscule--try it some time.

Power brakes, well, I could see the value in that...

------
My 4-year-old nephew was hit at a crosswalk last year in front of his school. Luckily, he was just knocked down and picked up a few scrapes. Lady driver said "I just couldn't stop". We figured that she just saw the stop sign too late (straight road with hills--few people follow the speed limit there).

So Mom hears all of these stories and pulls the police report. Oddly enough, it was a Toyota.

I still think she wasn't paying attention, but isn't it convenient for her to be able to blame someone else?

[MjM]

Sheesh. You can steer a moving auto without it's power steering. The dude is 61. That means he grew up driving cars that probably didn't have power steering.

The bigger problem is turning the key too far back.... and locking the steering wheel.

fwiw, the Prius is an anti-lock, all-hydraulic braking system with speed sensors on each wheel and electric braking distribution. Most anti-lock systems no longer use manifold vacuum, if they use any assist at all.

[pagar]

"And NUMI's being closed in CA."

"firestone-revisited-was-toyota-a-takedown-target-in-the-name-of-nummi/

"It would appear the UAW leadership has been focused on their own greed and self interest, rather than on serving the needs and desires of the rank and file NUMMI Workers."

Might want to check the background of some of those drivers.

[Pofarmer]

Most anti-lock systems no longer use manifold vacuum, if they use any assist at all.

They all have assist of some kind. Some use electric motors for assist, some use the power steering circuit for assist, but they all have some sort of assist mechanism. No such thing as manual hydraulic brakes. Sorry, try again.

The bigger problem is turning the key too far back.... and locking the steering wheel.

The bigger problem is that turning the key back doesn't DO anything. There are specific procedures to initiating an emergency shutdown. How many folks do you suppose have read that part of their manual?

Also, if this IS a computer problem. Anti lock brakes work by relieving brake pressure as a specific wheel starts to skid. Sense a lockup, release the brake, reapply, re sense, and on and on until the vehicle comes to a halt. That's why you get the pulsing feeling. The computer could essentially dump brake pressure, thinking the wheels are in a skid. If it doesn't reapply, then?

[Danube of Thought]

You can, indeed, steer a power-steering car without the power, but it ain't easy. Much harder than steering a car that simply doesn't have a power-steering system. (I say this from repeated personal experience with a 12-cylinder Jag XJS convertible. The power steering frequently failed as I was coming down out of the Hollywood Hills toward Sunset. Hair-raising. Finally got them to replace the car under the Lemon Law.)

[Pofarmer]

In other words DOT, you had a typical JAG. Man, I hated working on those cars.

[sylvia]

This whole Toyota thing has reminded me that a company is only as good the people. For instance, I tried to get my transmission fixed and got totally robbed. The transmission business is filled with mobster types and is basically a fraud, btw I am sure of it.

Anyway, as I was telling people my story, I heard similar stories. Some people were telling me to go to AAMCO, which is right down the street from me and would have been more convenient than the place I took it. I said I heard they weren't any good. And then they said, they used to be not good, but now they have a new manager, and they are good now.

So the point is, even in a large company, it's only as good as the top guys. Maybe Toyota was good because of the founders, but now they hvae some new family Toyoda member in there as the top guy. Maybe that guy's a cheap bastard who doesn't care or completely useless. So you can't just go on a reputation. Things change.

[Danube of Thought]

"In other words DOT, you had a typical JAG."

Exactly. But by God that car was beautiful (as was its replacement). Driving around Hollywood in a fire-engine red convertible phallus with the top down and the 12 cylinders purring tends to give a man a sense of peace.

[Walter]

If this is CarTalk, maybe you can help me Pofarmer. I just (Sunday) got around to replacing the accumulators (nitro spheres) in my '95 S500.

For some unknown reason, the geniuses at MB decided to use the same resevoir for power steering fluid and suspension hydraulic fluid. Anyhoo, I bled at the rear axle and topped off the resevoir. Life is good. The suspension is back to its former glory.

But for some reason, the power steering is acting as if it has little or no fluid. I have turned the wheels end-to-end and taken it on a 20-mile test drive, but no long-term improvement. When I start the car, I have no power steering (somewhat an issue for a 3-ton monster). After driving about 10 minutes, I get (limited) assist even when stopped.

Any thoughts?

[Pofarmer]

Walter, I don't know anything about that particular system. However that won't stop me from speculating! d;0) I'll assume the power steering was fine before the bleeding incident? Did you run the reservoir dry while bleeding the accumulators? Well, firstly, redouble check the reservoir. Is the reservoir remote from the pump? If so, go to the pump and make sure there's not a check valve or something that could be airlocked, preventing the pump from getting fluid. You don't want to run it this way for very long, as you're going to damage the pump if it's running without sufficient fluid flow.

[Walter]

Thanks Pofarmer!

I hadn't thought about a stuck valve. Some such thing must be in there for different pressures to be maintained for steering and height (and to keep the beast from jerking everytime I hit a bump).

Time to hit alldata and find the procedure to bleed that system too. It's just plain silly to assume that Benz would have a self-bleeding PS system just because every other manufacturer does.

On the other hand, I suppose I should worry when their approach starts to make sense at first glance.

[Jordan]

Check THIS out, and note the official police report at the end. The driver drove the car for 20 minutes, had time to call on his phone, and he turned the key off and the car rolled to a stop.

The police car did NOT stop the prius, they never touched until after the cars were stopped at the side of the road according to police, however, the media reports state that the police stopped the "runaway Toyota".

How runaway was it really?

http://www.cardealerreviews.org/?p=253071

[jt007]

Po Farmer said: "These cars no longer have a direct connection to the transmission from the shifter. If the car is traveling over a certain speed, over certain engine rev's etc, it won't let the transmission go into neutral."

You're right. I just leased a 2010 Prius last November (and I'm starting to regret it) and, while the problems with the Prius were brake related, I tried to put the car into neutral when I was traveling down an empty street at 25 mph. It wouldn't shift. For those who are unfamiliar, the shifting mechanism in a Prisu is not like a traditional automobile. It is entirely electronic and you have to hit the lever several times to get the car into neutral when it is standing still. I don't think neutral is an option on a Prius. You need to press the brake hard and not pump it; when you get to a lower speed you need to hold the button down for three seconds to turn the car off. A lot of people who have opinions on this matter don't seem to be familiar with these cars.

Also, last month I took my Prius in to have the brake software modified pursuant to the the re-call and I just felt the same problem yesterday. Whatever they did didn't fix the problem. I bet there will be others who find the same thing.

[Mustang0302]

A blue Prius wide-open on the interstate?

I made two round trips to the airport yesterday and I passed lapped that idiot twice!

Now he's claiming he brought it in to the dealer weeks ago, and they turned him away; said his model wasn't subject to the recall.

I smell drama/MSM queen.

[Hey, Buddy, how do you get this thing out....of.....second.....gear?]

A little Nash Rambler.
===========

[Mustang0302]

Only 90MPH over 30 miles, wide open?

The Prius is so slow it collects bugs on the rear window.

[sylvia]

I saw that guy on TV and I have to tell you, I got a sense he wasn't telling the truth. Not that it is not a real problem, but now it will be hard to separate the attention seekers from the real problems.

[MjM]

No such thing as manual hydraulic brakes. Sorry, try again.

Not to get into a pissing match, but before there were power brakes there were manual hydraulic brakes, and before there were manual hydraulic brakes there were mechanical cable brakes (still in use today, sorta: your emergency/parking brake).

Before that, Flintstone Feet.

Perhaps I should have been more clear and kept ABS away from the manual braking system. Stating "all-hydraulic" was not meant as "manual hydraulic". My point was to keep it clear that the Prius was not Toyota's ECB brake-by-wire system.

The computer could essentially dump [ABS] brake pressure, thinking the wheels are in a skid. If it doesn't reapply, then?

ABS, itself, does not use assist since it is a self-contained interventionless system, i.e., not part of the jam-the-foot initiated brake system.

IOW, if your ABS craps out, you still have your power brakes. And if your power craps out you still have "manual" hydraulic pressure. Long time to 0 mph, not withstanding.

And yes, jt007, not knowing every detail of the Prius, I am generalizing. But from what I've read I think I'll stick with my Jetta TDI. Better actual mileage, much better handling, gut punching torque, and a lot less Gee Whiz parts to fail.

And yes, there is something very fishy about that trapped-in-a-Prius fellow's story.

[Xrlq]

The only thing "runaway" about this story is the press reporting, which swallowed an obvious hoax hook, line and sinker and forgot even to employ the usual weasel-word "allegedly."

[JDM]

Toyota is now trying to throw the driver under the bus. They have found that the brakes were applied and released over 250 times with the car accelerating between applications. Isn't that what the anti-lock brake system does? Their latest description sounds like a run away car with the driver standing on the brakes and the anti-lock system rapidly releasing and applying the brakes. They are trying to do whatever possible to discredit the driver's account. Their chief worry is SALES.