Tough Votes! (Or, Is There Any DNC Talking Point Too Absurd For Ezra Klein To Parrot Happily?)

Ezra Klein delivers a laugher on healthcare reform; Megan McArdle has already spanked him, but why should she have all the fun?

Over to Ezra:

For some time, I've been trying to find good polling from the passage of Medicare. According to Greg Sargent, though, the Democrats beat me to it

For about fifteen seconds I tried using Google to find good polling data on the passage of Medicare.  For folks feeling lucky, here is the top of the list from my first search, on "gallup poll medicare 1965":

Health Care Reform Circa 1965: Polling on Medicare

My goodness, that is from Ezra's very own Washington Post back in July of 2009, now being recycled by those intrepid sleuths at the DNC.

Ezra concludes his excerpt with this:

After Lyndon Johnson was elected, a Harris poll found only a minority, 46%, supported a Federal plan to extend health care to the aged. Today, of course, Medicare is overwhelmingly popular.

Had Ezra read on, he might have found a bit more context:

Following Pres. Lyndon Johnson's election, Americans remained somewhat divided on the plan, with 46 percent telling Harris pollsters in Feb. 1965 that they'd prefer "a Federal law which would provide medical care for the aged by a special tax, like Social Security" and 36 percent more inclined to support "a plan of expanded private health insurance."

Hmm, Medicare was more popular than a private alternative.  DId Ezra know that and just forget to pass to on, or is this Book of Revelation time?  Let's soldier on for more surprises:

Asked another way, 62 percent said they favored "President Johnson's program of medical care for the aged under Social Security." A smaller majority, 56 percent, backed the American Medical Association's alternative plan, which would have "everyone who could afford it covered by private health insurance" and "those who couldn't afford it ...covered under a government health plan."

Assessing these conflicting views, pollster Louis Harris concluded, "So deep is the concern about medical care for the aged that the American people would welcome any of a variety of national plans."

So asked another way there was still more support for Medicare than the private alternative.

Let's cut to Ezra's punchline:

I wonder how many of the legislators who took the tough vote to move Medicare forward regret doing that today.

The tough vote!  A bit more research (I cleverly went with "medicare senate votes 1965"and took the first result) shows us that Medicare passed the House in April by a tough vote of 313-115 and went to the Senate where a similar bill wheezed through on July 9 by 68-21.  The House-Senate conference reported a bill on July 26 and the final product cleared the House by 307-116, the Senate by 70-24, and was signed into law on July 30.  Hey, in time for the August recess, just like Obama wanted!

Some Times story mentioned that the bill cleared the relevant Senate committee by a tooth-pulling 12-5.  As to bipartisan backing, the final bill was supported by a majority of House Republicans (70-68) and 40% of the voting Republican Senators (13-17).

Well.  I wonder how many of the lefty bloggers who took the tough decision to move this DNC talking point forward regret doing that today.

DARN THAT PESKY CBO:  This New England Journal of Medicine history of the passage of Medicare includes this lesson:

Johnson did one more crucial thing over the course of the winter and spring of 1965: he managed the economics of the Medicare and Medicaid legislation. This was much easier to do in 1965 before the creation of the Congressional Budget Office, which now provides independent economic reviews of all legislation, and a similar office within the White House, the Office of Management and Budget. But it was still necessary then, as now, to confront arguments that expansions of health care coverage were unaffordable. To do this, Johnson detailed loyal aides, including Cohen and Treasury Department personnel, to work quietly with legislators on designing taxes and benefit packages. When Mills still expressed concern about the costs of adding Part B and Medicaid to the Medicare package in March 1965, Johnson told him not to worry:

I'll take care of that, I'll do that. . . . When they asked me, do you want to put in another 400 or 500 million [to cover Mills's Medicare expansion], . . . what did I say about it? . . . I said we had an old judge in Texas one time . . . we called him Al Caldy . . . old Al Caldy Roberts, and he said, when they talked to him one time that he might've abused the Constitution and he said, "What's the Constitution between friends?" And I say, tell Wilbur that 400 million's not going to separate us friends when it's for health. . . .²²

Cavalier as Johnson may sound here, especially in light of the huge subsequent costs of these programs, his comments signal an unpleasant reality worth pondering: Johnson underestimated the numbers and evaded economic projections to smooth the passage of Medicare and the rest of his Great Society program. An accurate economic forecast might have sunk Medicare. Moreover, Francis Bator, a national security aide to Johnson at the time, recently asserted that during 1965 Johnson also suppressed news of the escalation of the Vietnam War and its attendant costs so that Congress would not question whether the nation could afford the president's Great Society initiatives

And the lesson:

Sixth, the most heretical generalization to emerge from the historical experience may be the following. The expansion of health care to large populations is expensive, and presidents may need to quiet their inner economists. Johnson decided, in effect, to expand coverage now and worry about how to afford it later. Accurate cost estimates might very well have sunk Medicare. In fact, this generalization holds across every administration from Harry Truman to George W. Bush. Major expansions of health care coverage rarely fit the budget and generally drew cautions (and often alarms) from the economic team.²⁴ Of course, under current federal budgetary circumstances, managing the economics of health care reform may be more difficult than ever before.

Comments

[Danube of Thought]

Wonder if the CBO score said that in 45 years the thing would have an unfunded liability of $35 Trillion.

Over to you, Ezra.

[Danube of Thought]

From AOL News, a Profile in Courage:

WASHINGTON (March 17) -- Rep. Jason Altmire refuses to make up his mind.

"It would be a disservice to my constituents," the Blue Dog Democrat from western Pennsylvania told AOL News. He vows not to announce his decision until he votes later this week on the contentious health care bill. Until then, he's listening to as many voters as possible. "Their voice needs to be heard."

And they are. Tens of thousands of e-mails have landed in his inbox. Calls to his three offices are piling up so fast that constituents are being urged to keep calling back until they get through. Protesters chant outside his office here and back home in Aliquippa and Harrison. In meetings, TV ads, church festivals, high school basketball games and restaurants while he's eating with his wife and daughters, they tell him. He's even getting messages from the sky: A small plane has been circling over his district for days trailing a sign reading, "Tell Rep. Altmire to Vote No on Health Care."
Rep. Jason Altmire speaks during a press conference on Capitol Hill in 2008 in Washington, DC.

What do Rep. Jason Altmire's constituents think about health care reform? The Democrat says he will gather as many opinions as possible before deciding how to vote on the bill.

"So far, there's definitely a tilt in opposition to the bill," he said. "If that continues this week, that's going to play a major role in my decision."

[PaulV]

No Jews allowed in certain parts of Jerusalem? Why is the administration pushing apartheid against the Jewish People?

[narciso]

Altmire is really getting on my nerves, needless to say, Johnson was much smarter at this, than Obama, than again, he had more experience at this sort of thing, as Vice President, and Senate

[Danube of Thought]

Sorry--posted my snark about the CBO before reading all of TM's account.

[Neo]

You know, we have been told over and over again that the real problem here is that Obama has not sold his vision of health care reform to the public, and now I agree.

The guy is an awful salesman.

With claims of reducing health care costs 9000%, it pretty obvious if this were the private sector, he would be labeled a "snake oil" salesman and would have the FTC visiting him on his way to jail.

[Raise the Red Flag of Cointegration!]

With nose in the air
His Utopia is Hell.
One Term President.
============

[Ignatz]

--Wonder if the CBO score said that in 45 years the thing would have an unfunded liability of $35 Trillion.--

In light of that $35-and-growing-trillion, everybody who thinks it would have been much wiser if the AMA plan of assisting geezers who can't afford health care and everybody else pays their own way had been passed instead, raise their hand.

I suspect we will find all large entitlements will eventually go through the same three stages;
1) Intial resistance caused by common sense:
2) Midterm popularity caused by the large cohort sitting in the fat, happy and stupid middle of the pyramid:
3) A popular revolt as the saps buried under the pyramid at the end realize their pockets were picked clean.

[Danube of Thought]

"I suspect we will find all large entitlements will eventually go through the same three stages;"

It's hard to believe there can be any more of them after this. The time for paying the piper on SS, Medicare and Medicaid is fast approaching, cannot be avoided, and will cause political chaos.

[Carol Herman]

Medicare was a tax on your wages, when people didn't live to be 65. (I even think LBJ died before he turned 65.) It was an actuarial decision. But it took money out of everyone's paycheck. Just as the taxes come out weekly, now, so that the wage earn never takes home the GROSS AMOUNT he or she has earned.

Social security and Medicare were designed to be solvent. But congress took advantage of the real money. Dipped into these funds on the pretext they'd keep getting more funds. And, then they began making medicare to people who never paid into it.

Heck, just like the real estate bubble. Which, according to THE BIG SHORT, Michael Lewis' new book, actually started back in 2005. And, lasted until 2007. Then? We bailed out the biggest abusers.

Did people vote for the bamster because they thought the government would pay off their mortgages? There's never been a case in our history where the "little guy" was anything but a sucker.

And, now? The aim is at the middle class. Because they do pay taxes! So people will be paying more. There are no winners in sight, yet.

[Steve]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS! I love your blog!!

Common Cents
http://www.commoncts.blogspot.com

ps. Link Exchange??

[Ignatz]

--It's hard to believe there can be any more of them after this.--

Yep. The demographic and fiscal bomb we're already sitting on is only going to go off bigger and sooner if they pass this mess and whenever it does it's going to be one of those century shaping events; a sort of Anti-New Deal bomb.

[Ignatz]

Posts like Steve's must have about the same rate of response as the desperate Nigerian bankers.

[Danube of Thought]

I'm bummed. I can see how this thing plays out right to the end. Final tally: 216 yeas, 215 nays.

And then we'll have to listen to all the explanations, and--far worse--the MSM adulation of the brilliance of Obama. (Be sure to check Howard Fineman and E.J. Dionne especially.)

"Gamechanger...Suddenly,he's back in charge...'Special: How He Did It'..." You get the picture.

[Jim Ryan]

Plus, Nancy will get a an extra vote or two so Perriello can vote Nay and tell us, "I listened to my constituents. It wasn't the right bill. And to those of you in my district who supported the bill I say I wanted something better. I didn't like the process." Etc. This will give him a chance to win in the fall and he knows it. Otherwise he has no chance and Nancy knows it.

Look for the bill passing with Perriello a Nay.

[Danube of Thought]

My guess would be that they're bargaining at this hour to see who gets to vote nay while still having 216 ayes.

And just think: if that libertarian hadn't run for the senate in Montana in 2008, none of this would have happened.

[Jim Ryan]

Perriello is their shining lad. He's south-central VA. He's part of turning VA red. He's #1 on the list.

[goy]

- Major expansions of health care coverage rarely fit the budget...

Hmmm... I wonder why that is.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that every single one of these meddlesome, cost-jacking, socialist excursions into federal micromanagement of health care is an extra-Constitutional usurpation of Congress' expressly limited authority. They can't fund these entitlement programs properly because they're not strictly legal in the first place. Thus, Medicare survives today solely through theft, extortion, confiscation of income, redistribution of wealth and, soon, annually growing IOUs to the Chinese. Same goes for Social Security.

As Paul Ryan's plan implies, we either jettison these programs in the very near term or we say good-bye to our Republic and hello to Obamalândia. There's no plausible third option I can see.

[Green and Philips sittin' in a curly tree.]

Hennecke on incandescents.
=============

[Jim Ryan]

Paul Ryan: not a credentialed moron. A B.A. from Maimi U (Ohio) and some business experience. Common-sense conservatism.

Kim: cryptic much this evening?

[Jim Ryan]

Ah, I just figured it out. It's St. Paddy's Day.

Never mind, Kim.

[Ann]

Dot:

The following are headlines of real HOPE:

CNN: Jack Cafferty: Pelosi 'Beyond Sleazy' For Endorsing Slaughter Solution

Cramer: ObamaCare Would Rocket Tax Rates to 50-60%

Hume: Befuddled Washington Press Corps Sign that Pelosi Health Care Moves Unprecedented

And even Mr. tingles up the leg doesn't like it: Video: Slaughter strategy ripped by … Chris Matthews

And here is a review of the FOX interview tonight that I wished I could of written:
Bret Baier [Seth Leibsohn] NRO

Bret Baier just concluded the single best interview of President Obama in a year, by any reporter. He was resilient in the face of the president’s obvious attempts to run down the clock by stonewalling; Bret continually hammered a series of questions the president did not want, and yet he was polite in explaining to the president the meaning of the questions just in case they were not what the president was familiar with (see the question about Connecticut for example). It was a model of how not to be cowed by a strong and charismatic leader and a model of a truly independent anchor/reporter. President Obama knew he didn’t have Bret at the very end when his last effort at victimhood was to sarcastically hang his head to the side in response to Bret’s saying he didn’t mean to interrupt, as if Bret were being insincere—which he wasn’t. Anyone who watches the interview can see who was stalling, who was running the clock, who was refusing to answer the questions, and why polite interruption was exactly what was needed. It was a model. If any of the MSM can watch it and conclude anything it is that FNC deserves a) its ratings and b) kudos for being truly independent from the herd of faux independent minds, the likes of which Howell Raines seems to esteem. Bret showed the rest of the press how to do it from now on.

03/17 07:36 PM Share

Like cc said, that interview will run ALL weekend. Really dumb move to outfox Fox!

[MarkO]

All these attacks on the Slaughter rule tell me that there are enough votes to do it straight up.

I am as disheartened about my children's prospects in the country as I could be. When Carter was president I simply assumed he could be remedied. This mole is unlikely to be undone.

[jimmyk]

Obama clearly has had no practice in being challenged. Throughout his entire life either everyone has kissed up to him and given him every benefit without regard to merit, or he's managed to talk his way out of it with that famous "eloquence." Now suddenly he's confronted with someone who doesn't back down and isn't fooled by slick words, and he looks like a babbling idiot.

[narciso]

Who knows, 'by hook or by crook,' they mean to get this, the will of the people doesn't matter to them, Bret's interview was great, he really has come to earn Brit Hume's chair.
Even the eternal optimist up in Wasilla, was
very somber, almost resigned tonight, to the
prospects of it passing

[Prosit]

Hey Jim, hoist the Red Flag of Cointegration.
==================

[Jim Ryan]

I'd rather hoist me pint of Sir Perry.

[Ann]

Come on MarkO, have some belief in your fellow Americans. I hope like everyone this will not pass but don't give up on a nation challenging this effort of the left to change who we are.

We are a great nation. We will not be defeated. We will fight until the end. And in the end we will still be free. God has given those rights to us and bad, our wonderful friend, knows it better than most of us.

I just really wish she will be around to cheer us on and clap with all of us when it is done. Let's make her proud.

Go JOM. Obama sucks!!!

[AL]

From wikipedia:

“…the ratio of workers paying Medicare taxes to retirees drawing benefits is shrinking, and at the same time, the price of health care services per person is increasing. Currently there are 3.9 workers paying taxes into Medicare for every older American receiving services. By 2030, as the baby boom generation retires, that is projected to drop to 2.4 workers for each beneficiary. Medicare spending is expected to grow by about 7 percent per year for the next 10 years. As a result, the financing of the program is out of actuarial balance, presenting serious challenges in both the short-term and long-term”

Not to worry. Obama will shrink Medicare expenses by 3000%.

[feh]

Cleaning ladies and stock boys get sick, lose their jobs and health coverage, and apparently you assholes think they should maintain public decorum by just crawling under a bridge and dying.

[Danube of Thought]

"Cleaning ladies and stock boys get sick, lose their jobs and health coverage, and apparently you assholes think they should maintain public decorum by just crawling under a bridge and dying."

It takes a monumentally stupid shit to believe that the only alternative to their crawling under a bridge and dying is to enact a monstrosity that interferes with the existing arrangements that about 250 million Americans have made for themselves. (how many cleaning ladies and stockboys crawled under a bridge to die in 2009?)

Of course the only reason that health insurance is tied to employment in the first place is that an earlier US congress made it so. Ditto the ban on interstate sales. Ditto the disparate tax treatment for individual policyholders.

It is the unshakeable, permanent belief of the yokel and the serf that this time will be different--this time the congress will get it just right. Of course yokels and serfs really believe (often with good reason) that congress can run their lives better than they themselves can. Self-respecting free people believe no such thing.

As I said, it takes a monumentally stupid shit.

[Stephanie]

Are you implying that the union is not offering health insurance coverage for grocery workers and hotel workers and that the union rep is not doing his job and allowing the corporations to fire them without their proper administrative hearings and in violation of their contracts?

Because the people you cited above are unionized and the unions provide coverage at the whopping sum of $4.65 per week for a single and just over $20 per week for a family around here. On their cadillac plan.

And getting sick is not in the union contract as a firing offense...

Man those unions sure are doing a lousy job of representing their folks nowadays allowing them to get fired and all. I had no idea.

I'll be sure to steer clear of those worthless unions. Thanks for the heads up!

[feh]

this time the congress will get it just right

Even the founding fathers didn't get it 'just right', that's why the constitution has amendments.

But I guess monumentally stupid shits might not have paid attention during their civics class, so your confusion, while understandable, is not forgivable.

[Danube of Thought]

Thanks, Ann--those are good stories, and I particularly loved the review of Baier's great job.

But this thing is going to pass anyway. The current majority and president think they know better than the people, and they have obvious contempt for the people's views. And they are confident that once enacted this can never be repealed, because history has shown us that once people begin to get subsidized by others and by future generations, they decline to be weaned from it.

[feh]

and by future generations

So true; only our adorable little vanity wars should be subsidized by future generations.

[Stephanie]

Those that can, do. Those who have no frigging idea of what they are suggesting are legal editors for TNR.

Seeing the insane clown posse in action, I think this is one fight they will pursue and lose. Big.

LUN

[Danube of Thought]

"Even the founding fathers didn't get it 'just right', that's why the constitution has amendments."

Simply beyond stupid. It was they who specified the amendment procedures.

[feh]

It was they who specified the amendment procedures.

And (mirable dictu!) modifications can also be applied to HCR! Like most dumb shits your concerns were unwarranted after all!

[Danube of Thought]

"only our adorable little vanity wars should be subsidized by future generations."

Better talk to Obama about his vanity war in Afghanistan. As for Iraq, it cost less in six years under Bush than the failed stimulus cost with a stroke of Obama's pen.

The thing about these vanity wars is that they always end. Goverment-funded benefits don't. In any event, because money is fungible, you cannot specify which particular items will be paid for by future generation, you can only tell the scope of the burden you are placing on them. And Obama, Reid and Pelosi have already established breathtakingly irresponsible records for exactly that.

Tell us how many stockboys and cleaning ladies died under bridges. We're waiting.

[feh]

If you think there's not enough suffering in the world once HCR passes you can always spend some extra time with your family. That should easily restore the precise balance of pain and disgust you seem to require.

[Danube of Thought]

"modifications can also be applied to HCR! "

As has already been explained, human nature and history tell us that they cannot be modified in any material way. Were it otherwise, the three social programs I mentioned would not have a combined unfunded liability of more tham $100 Trillion.

The serfs and yokels do not fare well at this site...

[feh]

We're waiting.

And we're still waiting for those Iraqi nukes we were promised.

[Danube of Thought]

Come on, we need some better trolls in here. This kid is a moron.

Even out here on the coast, it's late. Niters, and see you all in the a.m.

[feh]

More 'Cripple Creek' than 'Danube of Thought'.

[Dave (in MA)]

If you think there's not enough suffering in the world once HCR passes you can always spend some extra time with your family.

Once HC"R" passes there will be an increasing percentage of the population doing just that, upwards from the current 9.7.

[glasater]

And we're still waiting for those Iraqi nukes we were promised

Typical lib ploy--switch topics and throw some different sh!t when one is losing the argument.

I remember when Bret Baier was in the WH press corp when President Bush was taking questions one day.
Baier and his wife had just had a child with health issues and President Bush asked him from the podium how their child was doing.
Brett was visibly touched by the concern shown by the CIC and said the child was doing well.

So I'm assuming that the Baier family have had an upfront and personal experience with our healthcare system and are grateful for the good care available to them.

[As I walk along random thoughts come in my head. Wonder and Wander.]

feh, see Duelfer and Rossett for Iraqi Nukes. Doesn't you hair stand on end?

g, yes, we miss him yet.
==========

[daddy]

I see the Prez told us tonight he was of distant Irish ancestry.

Okay. No problem with that. Glad to hear it.

My first question then, is what category of race is he going to check on question 9 of the Census for himself and for his daughters?

White?
Black?
Asian?
Some other race?

And the second question; When will any reporter ask him that?

[Pops]

Anyone catch Obama claiming an earthquake wiped out Hawaii??

He really must be God....he could ony be predicting future events.

[Pops]

I read that under Senate rules, the reconciliation has to SAVE at least a Billion dollars or it cannot be considered by the Senate.

They cannot use the Senate bill to claim savings because that is already 'passed and became law' in order for reconciliation to even occur. But every 'fix' being proposed to be in reconciliation actually spends more money or makes the deficit bigger.

How are they going to get around that one???

[But, but, but, Brett.]

Give a buck and bang
Goes the weasel Obama.
Coy interruptus.
=========

[AL]

“..the three social programs I mentioned would not have a combined unfunded liability of more than $100 Trillion.”

How do you calculate this 100T? In my book, this liability is infinite, because Medicare, Medicaid, and SS have no sunset dates.

And why this liability is unfunded? As I am aware of, nobody repelled payroll (and income, and state sales) taxes yet. It will become underfunded in short term, for a simple reason I mentioned at 01:07 AM. Hopefully current and future increases in productivity (whopping 6% for 2009) will mitigate the problem.

As for “Cleaning ladies and stock boys get sick, lose their jobs and health coverage, …(and) crawling under a bridge and dying.”,
Feh is little late to discussion: Medicaid was created in 1965.

[daddy]

Pops,

As for earthquakes, you got me what the heck Obama was talking about.

Obama Tonight: "Louisiana, obviously, went through Katrina, and they're still trying to deal with the enormous challenges that were faced because of that. (CROSS TALK) That also — I'm giving you an example of one that I consider important. It also affects Hawaii, which went through an earthquake. So that's not just a Louisiana provision. That is a provision that affects every state that is going through a natural catastrophe."

Perhaps he meant this: ">http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/special/Hawaii.php"> Hawaii had 18 earthquakes last week,: including 11 Magnitude 2's.

But ">http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/special/Alaska.php"> Alaska had 300 earthquakes last week,: including 26 Magnitude 2's, 10 Magnitude 3's, and 3 Magnitude 4's.

And ">http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/special/California_Nevada.php"> California had 434 earthquakes last week,: including 15 Magnitude 2's, 5 Magnitude 3's, and 2 Magnitude 4's.

So quick, send us FEMA and billions of Katrina dollars to Alaska and California since we had 17 times more earthquakes (and more powerful earthquakes last week than Hawaii, and California had 24 times more earthquakes (and more powerful earthquakes) than Hawaii!

Or perhaps Obama was just ignorantly bullshitting.

[Janet]

From Powerline LUN

"...the Baby Boomers -- i.e., the most indulged, demanding and complaining generation in a hundred years, or maybe ever. The Dems are (apparently) fixing to take over medicine at exactly the time The Giant Complaining Horde shows up at the door."

The Giant Complaining Horde...

[daddy]

Stunning news today from the BBC.

There is not a single new science/environment story over there today about AGW that is grossly stupid. Seriously...I'm not making this up...I almost don't know what to do with myself this AM.

Sure there's still stuff like:

"Can Rhino's Cure Cancer", and
"Reindeer Body Clocks Switched Off", and
"Monkey's Learn More from Females", and
"African's Take Blame for Climate", and
"Ads Exaggerated Climate Change", and
"Harsh Winter Delays This Years Spring Bloom", and even
"Man Assaults With Penis".

But as for the tried and true "Woe is us Settled Sciencers", today it's a mighty thin gruel being put out from the BeeB.

Even Richard Black is substandard today. His boring column (which has way to many words to even bother reading) attempts to tell the African's that they're wrong to think that they are responsible for Global Warming, but this makes him jump through hoops trying to explain why pooping in mud huts and slash-burning of Savannah's is no problem, whereas western de-Salinization plants and modern farms that feed the planet are the culprits---But you just sense today that Dick's heart ain't in it and he's just going through the motions without any passion or conviction.

Sad really. A sad and curious episode. Don't know if I've seen the like of it lo these many years, and certainly don't know what to make of it.

Perhaps they're all bummed by the earthquakes terrorizing Hawaii?

Damn peculiar.

[Janet]

The WaPo has a style section article on Al Franken today. A picture of him yucking it up with Lindsey Graham and John Cornyn at the Sotomayor hearings....just disgusting.
...and then a little highlight on "comic" Kathy Griffin too.
How did Al Franken get elected?! A Senator?
We really are deservedly doomed if we elect men like Franken as our leaders.
...and that a mean, ugly person like that Griffin is considered a comic...and is written about in a major newspaper just sums up our culture. She had meetings with House Majority Whip James Clyburn!
These fools in congress won't listen to the American people, but are meeting with a foul mouthed "celebrity" on our military policy of DADT.....
It is all just too disgusting.

[hit and run]

It was they who specified the amendment procedures.

...

And (mirable dictu!) modifications can also be applied to HCR!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution>I agree.

The Twenty-seventh Amendment (Amendment XXVII) prohibits any law that increases or decreases the salary of members of the Congress from taking effect, until the start of the next set of terms of office for Representatives. It is the most recent amendment to the United States Constitution, having been ratified in 1992, more than 202 years after its initial submission in 1789.

Sounds about right. We would only have to wait about 202 years for any material changes to ObamaCare.

[hit and run]

Janet:
How did Al Franken get elected?!

He didn't.

He was "deemed" a Senator.

[narciso]

Biden's little routine, really confirms my observation about snakes in Congress earlier,
he took at swipe at Liz Cheney's hunt for
terrorist supporters in the DOJ, he ridiculed
the established history of St. Patrick, and tried to tie it to Fox News, he joked about the 'housing boom' in Israel, the crisis he
seemed to move along. He certainly needs better material if he's going to go into
stand up on purpose, instead of you know

[pagar]

The last post (Thanks, Daddy) on the Wanted Dead or Alive thread details the exact procedure needed to defeat Obamacare. A procedure set up in the Constitution years ago.

Meanwhile, this nation is preparing for a vote in the House that we have already been told by experienced people, will completely bankrupt this Nation within 4 years. This year marks the beginning of the calling of the IOUs given to Social Security. No money is available to pay these IOUs, yet the House is preparing to pass another benefit program that can not be paid for. This is far beyond any scheme Madoff could have dreamed up.

[Clarice]

WOW
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1240545>No way
One of Pelosi's floor whips, Lynch, publicly opposes the Senate bill AND use of the Slaughter Rule:

"Even one of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s floor whips, U.S. Rep. Stephen Lynch, says a proposed parliamentary move to pass health-care reform would be “disingenuous” and harm the credibility of Congress.

In a sign of how tough it’s been for Pelosi to round up votes for the massive bill, Lynch - a South Boston Democrat who supported a House reform package last year - said he’ll probably vote against a key Senate version of the legislation, unless unexpected major changes are made soon.

Lynch, who serves as one of Pelosi’s key vote counters, said he also can’t support a proposed “deem and pass” procedure that would allow Democrats to vote to strip out controversial portions of the Senate bill and then “deem” that the entire package has passed without a second, direct vote."

[Jane]

So I want to know if this passes, when do all the changes (increased taxes etc) take place. Is it the next day or some date in the future?

And is there any chance for any injunctive relief while everyone sues?

[Janet]

narciso is absolutely correct about the snakes in congress. LUN for those that can stomach it, is Biden's routine.

[rse]

Speaking of Franken-

EdWeek's Politics K-12 blog characterized him this AM as "fairly liberal Al Franken".

I reread it twice to see if there was any hint of irony.

Good objective reporting.

[Jane]

Lynch is reacting to the SCott Brown election. I think reality has been rammed home in MA. Still I don't trust him.

[Clarice]

His comments cannot help Nancy and I doubt he'd risk her wrath for no reason.

[Clarice]

Apparently the CBO report is in and the Dems claim it is under the magic number..Fpx:
House Democrats, Citing CBO Report, Say Health Care Overhaul Will Cost $940 Billion Over 10 Years

[narciso]

You expect folks from Southie, to have some common sense, then again, what was he doing
voting for this thing, the first time around

[Porchlight]

I think they're going to drop the Slaughter Rule and the House will vote on the Senate bill as is. Then they can claim it was the will of the people to do it in this transparent, open fashion, and they should be applauded for it. They'll just have to do without Stupak, leave in all the bribes and hope for the best.

[Sue]

If you think there's not enough suffering in the world once HCR passes you can always spend some extra time with your family.

I'm thinking that could be arranged. And then you fusterclucks can figure out where the money will come from to pay for your healthcare. Because it won't be from me. I'll quit contributing and become one of you.

[Jane]

Me too Sue. Let the morons pay.

[Sue]

The CBO report is in. Hallelujah! It is only going to cost $940 billion over ten years.

[matt]

Hey feh;

Since you're so smart, figure this out.

$19 Trillion in on the books debt today, with $1 Trillion/year increases based upon current projections.

Social Security projected BK in 2025.

Medicare now projected BK in 2015. ( by the ay, these BK dates have accelerated in the past year)
FNMA/FNMC - $5 trillion off books debt.

unfunded federal pensions = $400-600 Billion/year.

Health Care bill estimated the last time anyone saw it was $1 Trillion/year. "cept no one has seen it yet.

So where the hell is the money going to come from, you frigging moron?

I feel deeply for those who can't afford health care but the fact is that they still get treatment in this country under Medicare and Medicaid. The indigent simply don't bother to pay. All I have heard from the Democrats on this is anecdotal sob stories that turn out to be fabricated.

I hope your job investment banking or developing video games or making lattes pays real well, because you're the one gonna get stuck cleaning up this mess. Econ 101, schmuck. The grown ups in the room have had enough.

As the Who so aptly put it, "we're not gonna take it".

[Sue]

Walgreens is not going to take it anymore either.

Effective April 16, Walgreens drugstores across the state won't take any new Medicaid patients, saying that filling their prescriptions is a money-losing proposition — the latest development in an ongoing dispute over Medicaid reimbursement.

This is our future under Obamacare.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011367936_walgreens18m.html>Source

[jimmyk]

I get the impression that there are these 30 or so fence-sitters in the House who are being courted and bribed and threatened by Pelosi and Obama to get them to vote 'yes.' My question is: Is there no one doing anything similar to try to get them to vote 'no'? The whole thing seems very one-sided. Granted the Dems are in power and have more ability to bribe, and they have no moral scruples to keep them from doing anything, but still, where is the countervailing force from the Republican leadership? Or are we just not hearing about it?

[Sue]

jimmyk,

I think we just aren't hearing about it. Every fence sitter that has spoken publicly has described the pressure, from both sides of the aisle.

[narciso]

Actually, Matt 'Won't get fooled again" is a line they can't avoid following up. The 'infinite monkeys writing Hamlet" must have been up all night to come up with that score,

[Sue]

We aren't going to see the full CBO report, just a snapshot of it.

[MayBee]

I think the "deem and pass" was just a diversion so they had a reason not to vote on the Senate bill this week.

[Extraneus]

RAS -20 today.

[Jane]

At this point, I hate to say it, but I think we are screwed.

On to the amendments.

[Sue]

This is what we are seeing, not the full report.

1. CUTS THE DEFICIT Cuts the deficit by $130 billion in the first ten years (2010 – 2019). Cuts the deficit by $1.2 trillion in the second ten years. 2. REINS IN WASTEFUL MEDICARE COSTS AND EXTENDS THE SOLVENCY OF MEDICARE; CLOSES THE PRESCRIPTION DRUG DONUT HOLE Reduces annual growth in Medicare expenditures by 1.4 percentage points per year—while improving benefits and lowering costs for seniors. Extends Medicare’s solvency by at least 9 years. 3. EXPANDS AND IMPROVES HEALTH COVERAGE FOR MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES Expands health insurance coverage to 32 million Americans Helps guarantee that 95 percent of Americans will be covered. 4. IS FULLY PAID FOR Is fully paid for – costs $940 billion over a decade. (Americans spend nearly $2.5 trillion each year on health care now and nearly two-thirds of the bill’s cost is paid for by reducing health care costs).

Can republicans not a get a copy of the full report?

[bunky]

Blue Frauds

[mefolkes]

Dunno, the more I hear it, the more "deem and pass" sounds like "demon pass".

[Danube of Thought]

Mornin', all.

"How do you calculate this 100T? In my book, this liability is infinite, because Medicare, Medicaid, and SS have no sunset dates."

The number is the discounted present value out to infinity. As expenditures are further out in the future their discounted present value approaches zero, so after five or six decades out the present values start to become trivial.

"And why this liability is unfunded?"

By definition, the unfunded liability is the difference between the scheduled outlays and receipts. If you want to reduce it you have to decrease the one or increase the other, or both. Obviously you can attempt to do that, but take a look at the track record in that regard. It's sort of a neutral number that says "this is what will happen if we make no changes."

[Sue]

Jane,

I've felt that all along. ::sigh:: It really sucks that the first time I'm right in a prediction it is this piece of crap passing.

[rse]

Maybe that means they had to move to triple counting to get a favorable score.

[Sue]

Didn't Obama tell Baier last evening this wasn't about his presidency? Why, yes, yes he did. But earlier in the day, it sure was about his presidency.

One caucus member told POLITICO that Obama won him over by “essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34602.html>Hispanic caucus helping save Obama's presidency.

[Danube of Thought]

"Lynch...said he’ll probably vote against a key Senate version of the legislation, unless unexpected major changes are made soon."

What does this mean? Will he have an opportunity to vote separately on various provisions? It's my understand that there'll be a single vote, either on the existing senate bill (in its entirety) or on the "deeming" bill.

[Sue]

BAIER: So if it doesn't pass, does that diminish your presence [sic] ?

OBAMA: Well, if it doesn't pass, I'm more concerned about what it does to families out there who right now are getting crushed by rising health care costs and small businesses who were having to make a decision, "Do I hire or do I fix health care?" That's the reason I make these decisions.

[Danube of Thought]

"My question is: Is there no one doing anything similar to try to get them to vote 'no'?"

Their constituents are sure bringing pressure. But the GOP institutionally has no pressure it can bring--it can't offer all kinds of goodies should the member be voted out, it can't promise pork for the district, and it can't threaten to give the guy a broom closet for an office and kick him off his favorite committees.

[Pofarmer]

If anyone believes that snippet that Sue posted, I have this beautiful Ocean Front Property in Arizona that I can let go at a really reasonable price.

[MayBee]

Yeah, the full CBO report isn't out AND nobody has seen the full plan yet (according to Ed Henry). That seems suspicious to me.

[Sue]

Po,

That isn't a snippet. That is what they are releasing. For the moment. What are the rules (as if that matters anymore) for the CBO releasing their full report?

[bunky]

CBO is going to say that it saves money. There is no drama here, only a rigged vote.

[narciso]

I'd call it Ctluthu pass, to be topical, this slouching beast toward a town near you.

[MayBee]

Ha! Today Ezra Klein has posted a blog about a Congress woman who lost her seat and is now leading a very happy life.

What a shill.

[Pofarmer]

Po,

That isn't a snippet. That is what they are releasing. For the moment. What are the rules (as if that matters anymore) for the CBO releasing their full report?

So, who "got to" the CBO accountants, because, really, I don't think anyone with half a brain is going to buy that.

Does Pelosi still get her 4 million jobs?

[RichatUF]

AL-

Unfunded Liabilities. They use a method called generational accounting and use the net present value of 75 years of predicted liabilities. The economists that have been doing the work (including the former Comptroller, David Walker) have been making it an issue for about the last decade. My comment is really shorthand for their argument and the included link has what appears to be their most current estimates.

[Sue]

MayBee,

Preparing those who will go home in January after a devastating loss in November? Too late to help us, but the satisfaction of seeing them lose will still be there.