The Dubious Case For Preemptive Concessions

Andrew Sullivan praises this dubious peace from Gideon Rachman of the Financial Times calling on Israel to make some pre-emptive concessions to fire up the old peace process.  Here we go with what Andrew (or one of the under-Andrews) describes as an "illuminating parallel":

The Israelis’ furious reaction to the pressure they are under from the Obama administration is reminiscent of the British rage early in the Northern Irish peace process, when it became clear that our American allies were intent on “talking to the terrorists” of the Irish Republican Army.

Yes indeed, because if the Brits took a wrong step with the IRA back in the 90's their very survival in England might have been imperiled, since "Brits Out" was shorthand for "Brits out of planet Earth."

And now for some "very sharp analysis of the core question":

For all their long-term concerns, the Israelis have failed to make vital concessions, because the status quo still feels more comfortable.

Israel’s assaults on Lebanon and Gaza have, for the moment, largely stopped the threat of rocket fire into Israel. The wall the Israelis have built around the West Bank has helped to prevent suicide bombings. The economy has done well in recent years. Things look good – if you do not look too far into the future. By contrast, calling a complete halt to illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land – as Mr Obama has demanded – entails risks and pain. There are members of the Israeli cabinet who still cling to the idea of a Greater Israel, incorporating all of the West Bank. If Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, delivered the settlement freeze the Americans want, his rightwing coalition would probably collapse. Many Israelis also worry that an eventual move to uproot at least 80,000 settlers as part of a peace deal could lead to a revolt in the army – some 30 per cent of whose officers are religious conservatives, presumed to be sympathetic to the settlers. Any such military revolt, one respected commentator told me, “would be the end of the state of Israel”.

Right - whether or not the Palestinians are ready, willing or able to make a peace deal, and regardless of whether it has their popular support or is even in the long term interest of the Palestinians (who may think they are winning this siege), the Israelis ought to make concessions on housing just to placate Obama and see what happens.

Obama has already taken the "Special" out of the special relationship with Britain; maybe if they can lead the way on abandoning Israel they can get back in his graces.  Maybe! 

My advice to the Brits would mirror my advice to the Israelis - this too shall pass, and the next US President will know who our allies are.

Comments

[Clarice]

Right after Sullivan makes a preemptive concession to those opposed to same sex marriage.

[Frayed Knot]

Seriously? No painful concessions? I guess the Israelis never withdraw from Gaza and the Palestinians never turned it into the world's largest launch pad.

It's amazing to me how many Obama worshipers think that history started only on January 20, 2010. I guess one's perspective is warped when you use the President's buttocks as ear-muffs.

[Jack is Back!]

Why do we have to discuss anything Sully writes about? He is a licensed idiot in my opinion who, like Ezra Klein, is like a fart in a bottle.

[nathan hale]

Sullivan is high octane idiocy, not the regular unleaded kind, it started with his
gay marriage obsession, and he's ended up
Ezra Pound without the talent; it's almost
quite sad, except for the fact that people
take this jackalope serious. Rachman, is just
the unleaded variety

[bgates]

Has the President demanded a halt to illegal Mexican settlement on Arizona land?

[Danube of Thought]

Wow. Five great posts preceded me. Can't add a thing; you people are on a roll.

[Jane says obamasucks]

My advice to the Brits would mirror my advice to the Israelis - this too shall pass, and the next US President will know who our allies are.

It's just so sad. (Sorry to break the streak DOT)

[nathan hale]

Of course, this fellow dismantled Gideon's premise, right quick, in the LUN

[Ignatz]

How many Jews live unharrassed in the Palestinian controlled territories and would be allowed to live in a Palestinian state? How many are allowed to vote?
If that number ever rises appreciably above zero.....never mind, it won't.

[Frayed Knot]

Correction - I meant January 20, 2008. Obviously I lack historical perspective as well.

[Ignatz]

You've got it bracketed.

[Clarice]

Oh my..
ABC:
A former rising star at the CIA accused of drugging, raping and taping Muslim women while stationed in the Middle East appeared before a federal judge in Virginia today after skipping a pre-trial hearing more than a week ago and going on what sources called an apparent drug binge. Andrew Warren was arrested after an intensive search by federal officials concerned he might be a danger to himself. According to two federal law enforcement sources, drug paraphernalia and a handgun were found in the Virginia motel room where Warren, former CIA chief of station in Algeria, was arrested.

[anduril]

Right. Good idea. Know who our allies are.

[Pagar]

"Has the President demanded a halt to illegal Mexican settlement on Arizona land?"

No, the President has demanded that the legal residents quit bothering the illegals.

[V the K]

When will the Palestinians ever be asked to concede *anything?* Ever?

[Clarice]

Hot Air says Reid is folding to Graham--cap and trade will come up first.

Speaking of preemptive concessions.

Now, let's beat that back--into the ground.

[Elliott]

Has the President demanded a halt to illegal Mexican settlement on Arizona land?

Forget it, bgates. It's Aztlan.

[centralcal]

From 2 Jake Tapper tweets:

Clyburn,Conyers,Edwards(Md),Ellison,JacksonLee(TX),Johnson,EB,Kilpatrick(MI),Lee(CA),Meeks (NY),Moran (VA),Payne,Thompson(MS),....
Towns, Watt, Woolsey.

They were the 15 Dems who voted AGAINST a pay freeze.

[rse]

Conyers wants to be able to pay his wife's legal bills.

Or at least a new designer handbag to take to court.

[matt]

speaking of Arizona, I blogged on the Left's insane response to the Arizona bill. LUN.

Anduril, while the actions of individuals or even organizations within the Israeli government may be distasteful and in some cases even detrimental to our national interests, they are also the only game going over there. They are a far more preferable alternative than the Palestinians. I sort of doubt that will change.

[Bill in AZ]

Nice job Matt.
The AZ immigration law is working already. Mexico issued a travel advisory to citizens traveling to AZ.

[Pagar]

What did the travel advisory recommend?

[nathan hale]

Did Graham take extra stupid pills this morning, I know rhetorical question, thank heavens for small favors, and bring on the next scam.

The Palestinians either in Khartroum,(Fatah) or Beirut (PFPL) or Vienna, Rome,(Abu Nidal) have murdered Americans, that's a tiny detail
you seem to miss, Langdon

[anduril]

Anduril, while the actions of individuals or even organizations within the Israeli government may be distasteful and in some cases even detrimental to our national interests, they are also the only game going over there.

Fine, matt, but how about we be realistic about "who our allies are." That's a nuance I don't catch in TM's posting. Without that type of understanding we'll never have an effective foreign policy. We need to be able to free ourselves to question whether the policy preferences themselves of an ally that engages in actions that are "in some cases even detrimental to our national interests" may themselves be "detrimental to our national interests."

[Bill in AZ]

"What did the travel advisory recommend?"

I didn't pay any attention to it. It will have just as much effect as all of the "boycotts" will have as the same thousands of folks from Mexico stream over the border to Costco, Home Depot, etc.

[matt]

"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is a fine philosophy in general, but the reality is that France and Germany have acted at various times in ways that conflict with our interests.

DeGaulle, while nominally an ally, used every opportunity to poke us in the eye. When I lived there I hated the French because they were so anti-American. More recently Mitterand was one of Saddam's great facilitators.

The Germans sold Libya the dual use technology we then went in and blew up, and even now are selling technology to our enemies such as Iran.

So what is the percentage in supporting the Palestinians? Are they going to love us? Will it bring lasting peace? Their only contribution to society so far has been large scale terrorism and suicide bombing.

In addition, Iran and Syria don't want peace and will do anything to prevent it.They cannot be engaged.So for now it's a standoff and the Palestinians are outreproducing the Israelis. It is a math game.

Perhaps if there was a nelson mandela in palestine it could happen, but what are the odds? Abbas is simply a lesser crook than Arafat.

[Jane says obamasucks]

Matt,

You really write brilliantly. Great piece.

[anduril]

Nevertheless, matt, our NATO allies drew the line at actual espionage. Israel has not drawn that line and even used their take as a bargaining chip with the Soviet Union. You speak of the French as being anti-American, but the Israelis of that era were equally so. The bigger point, however, is that this behavior is an indication that the Israelis themselves are well aware that their interests do not coincide with those of the US--or at least their interests may differ significantly if not in every circumstance. They're behaving rationally based on that perception. Are we? Ask Clarice whether Israel's interests are ever in opposition to those of the US. Ask for an example. You won't get a straight answer.

[bunkberbuster]

``Perhaps if there was a nelson mandela in palestine it could happen, but what are the odds?''

The American right tends to label anyone who disfavors its aggressive approach to national defense. But the only people actually advocating pacifism in American are the same right-wingers. It's just that they advocate it for Palestinians.

Apparently, the only option for Palestinians is to unilaterally disarm and disavow all violence as a means to regain occupied territory.

That's some rather radical pacifism, isn't it?

[centralcal]

anduril, why don't you ask Clarice yourself, instead of prodding matt to do it.

[MayBee]

Apparently, the only option for Palestinians is to unilaterally disarm and disavow all violence as a means to regain occupied territory.

Of course that isn't the only option. At this point, however, it is the most sensible option. They could have what they say they want if they did stop attacking Israelis.

Another option they have is to raise a legitimate army and fight according to the laws of war.

I don't think they'll do either thing, which by itself demonstrates I believe there is at least a third option.

[nathan hale]

They could do worse, and probably will, by extinguishing the next generation in a paroxym
of hate. The Civil Right Movement, Gandhi, even the larger part of the South African liberation worked that way. Doesn't matter anyways, the BBC and the NY Times will find
excuses for suicide bombers all the times,
except if it happens in their neck of the woods, than it becomes terrorism at least for a while

[Captain Hate]

he's ended up Ezra Pound without the talent

Well stated, nh; poor Ezra really became disgusting but at least he produced some outstanding poetry and helped TS Eliot turn his outstanding verse into great art. Sully is famous for being the token "conservative" on Tweety's show, which is of course completely delusional. History will not be kind to such a neglible STD of the internet.

[Ignatz]

--Apparently, the only option for Palestinians is to unilaterally disarm and disavow all violence as a means to regain occupied territory.--

So the one thing the Palestinians are really lacking at this point is another war with Israel?

[bunkberbuster]

``They could have what they say they want if they did stop attacking Israelis.''

Wow. So pacifism does work! Who knew?

[Danube of Thought]

"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

And one man's holocaust is another man's final solution. In neither case are we required that the two men's differing views are morally equivalent.

[matt]

anduril;

The Israelis operate in the by any means necessary school. I am not a fan of much of what they do. But at the same time, they know they have only themselves to rely upon. It's sort of like the nature of a tiger. We can't expect them to be anything but what they are and operate accordingly.

Across the line are virtually every Muslim state in the world, so the odds are heavily against them. There have been 4 wars, including Lebanon to date and there will likely be a 5th when the Arabs feel the timing is right.

That timing could be the result of the implosion of the United States. We are coming to a schwerpunkt ourselves very rapidly. The wheels are in motion.

The Greek debt crisis, Portugal, Japan, sovereign debt are all going to come home to roost and we will be forced to make hard choices. We are almost out of Iraq, and will be out of Afghanistan soon enough with a military that while the greatest is beginning to fall into disarray.The DoD is cutting the hell out of major programs.

With the current thinking and events in the ME I foresee an isolationist trend in military affairs, and Obama has made clear he is no friend of Israel.

I don't know, even if Israel were attacked again, whether he would come to their aid. We now know no one else will. Politically, they are as isolated as they have ever been.

Like I said, if it were ordinary Palestinian Americans running the shebang, prhaps there would be some sanity. Instead Hamas and Hezbollah are simply crazier versions of the PLO.

Politically, the PLO has little legitimacy within Palestine and are a criminal organization. So, do we create an instant failed state, stay the hell out of it, or become the heavies for a bunch of people who don't like us on either side?

P.J. O'Rourke had a funny line about family fights. He said that in his family it was "is this fight personal or can anyone join in?". That pretty well describes the whole mess.

[bunkberbuster]

``Another option they have is to raise a legitimate army and fight according to the laws of war.''

Ah, so the problem with the Palestinians isn't that they're too violent, it's that they're not violent enough! If only they had some tanks, cruise missiles, full-body armor and a sugar-daddy country to pay for it all. THEN Israel would talk, right? LOL....

[Danube of Thought]

Apparently, the only option for Palestinians is to unilaterally disarm and disavow all violence as a means to regain occupied territory.

Why is that the only option? They could begin by coming to grips with the fact that the territory is occupied because it was seized in a war which their side started and lost. And whether they are able to do that or not yes, disavowing all violence that is deliberately intended to kill innocents would be a rather nice step.

[bunkberbuster]

``two men's differing views are [not] morally equivalent.''

Ah, the "moral superiority" argument, ie I'm wrong and I know I'm wrong, but I'm morally superior, damn it...

[Danube of Thought]

Even the Navy Times reports backlash against the naming of USS John Murtha.

[Danube of Thought]

Ah, the "moral superiority" argument, ie I'm wrong and I know I'm wrong, but I'm morally superior, damn it...

If you think the arguments concerning whether the holocaust was or was not a final solution are morally equivalent, say so. I don't. And I have made no contention about my own morality; I spoke exclusively of competing arguments.

You seem badly confused, and a bit unmoored...

[Danube of Thought]

Ah, so the problem with the Palestinians isn't that they're too violent, it's that they're not violent enough!

No. The problem is that they deliberately murder innocents.

[hax vobiscum]

lol... Palestinians are gonna keep killing those fucking kikes, and my man Obama ain't gonna do a thing to stop them.

And my buddies in the media are gonna keep covering for them. Bitch away, neocons, it's all going down the toilet for you.

[Danube of Thought]

Nice try, Hax, but that kind of stuff doesn't work around here. Grow up, and take a hike.

[Clarice]

OT, but interesting--Cashill fleshes out the argument that Davis was really Obama's father, and while his case is not conclusive, I think it has much to commend it as his timeline shows:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/a_further_inquiry_into_obamas_1.html>who's the papa?

[anduril]

matt, I can agree with some of what you're saying, in particular that push is coming to shove and we'll need to make some hard choices. I don't think there's anything wrong with our military that can't be put right, but it's being overused without a coherent geopolitical stragegy.

[bgates]

The Israelis operate in the by any means necessary school.

That explains the money, food, energy, and medical aid provided to the people who are sworn to their destruction, I suppose.

It's sort of like the nature of a tiger. We can't expect them to be anything but what they are

I'm curious what your lifelong German friend could possibly have said to get you even a little bit upset about his antisemitism.

[Jane says obamasucks]

The only issue I have with the "Davis is dad" thing, is at the time, why would that have any different meaning than Obama is dad? Was it all that bad to be davis back then?

[Clarice]

He was married legally at the time.

[Strawman Cometh]

Perhaps if there was a nelson mandela in palestine
They had one. And a Ghandi. And an MLK.
They killed 'em all.

[MayBee]

Ah, so the problem with the Palestinians isn't that they're too violent, it's that they're not violent enough!

I said no such thing.
Do *you* think it's better to target civilians than to fight as soldiers, against soldiers?

[centralcal]

Thanks for the Cashill link, Clarice. I will read it in the morning with my coffee, since I am having a cocktail and dinner is almost done.

[Extraneus]

At some point, Israel will be able to wipe out their enemies without any appreciable degradation in support from the left.

[matt]

realpolitik is realpolitik, bgates.

Fer instance, the Israelis "borrowed" some of our state of the art reconnaisance technology back in the 1970's and developed a whole range of military and industrial products from it as they violated if not the letter, the intention of our secrecy agreements.Their American competitors were hogtied and lost billions quietly. There is, in fact a pattern of espionage, much of it industrial. Some of it clearly inimical to our interests and safety.

Recognizing their back is against the wall and that they act accordingly is simply recognizing the facts. There is a part of the culture that is ruthless when necessary. There are few resources and a huge defense mouth to feed. That sometimes makes them difficult allies.

And yes, there is much more good than bad. But militarily and industrially, they have a very different agenda than ours.

I fail to see how in any way that is anti-semitic.

[anduril]

I fail to see how in any way that is anti-semitic.

For goodness sake, matt, isn't it obvious? You violated the cardinal rule at this forum: never suggest in any way, shape or form that Israel's and America's interests could diverge in any way, shape or form. To do so is to be anti-semitic. It's like there were these three monkeys...

[Jim Miller]

Clarice - Barack Obama, Sr. was married legally at the time, too -- though it might not have been as obvious in Hawaii. Unless there was something strange about the marriage laws in Hawaii at the time, he couldn't legally marry Obama's mother.

(I've often wondered what Obama thought about that, since it was far more of a stigma then than it is now.)

[nathan hale]

That was the bureau that ran Pollard, LAKAM under Eitan as I recall. Back in the mid 80s,
even under REagan there was a strong arabist
influence in State and Defense, which in retrospect was unwarranted, with the Iraq card, the looking away from the mujahadeen funding channels, et al. I read Blitzer's book
on the subject, back when he wasn't a total hack, they needed information on the likes of Abu Jihad, and other PLO officials, that the administration didn't want to provide

[anduril]

Don't try to understand it from an intellectual standpoint. It isn't rational from that standpoint, but from the standpoint of suppressing independent thought... Independent thought is what's so doggone dangerous.

[bunkberbuster]

Dot writes: ``arguments on whether the holocaust was or was not a final solution are [not] morally equivalent.''

The arguments are either valid, or invalid. Morality has nothing to do with it. No surprise you view morality as a pliable concept ready for use as ideological justification and/or to excuse immoral behavior...

[Clarice]

It's true, but Davis was living in Hawaii where the lie was sure to be found out whereas Obama's marriage was in Kenya where it wasn't. Moreover, I believe it was a traditional marriage probably not recorded in any registry.

It might explain why he's done nothing to help his Kenyan relatives nor kept his promise to build a school in his father's village.

I think the secret of the birth certificate is that it's a lie , and does not list his real father or says father unknown or perhaps even lists Davis as the father--all of which shoots the dramatic tale of the wonderworker's birth.

[bunkberbuster]

Maybee writes: ``Do *you* think it's better to target civilians than to fight as soldiers, against soldiers?''

Of course the Geneva Conventions and international law offer superior guidelines for self-defense. Unfortunately, neither party in this conflict adheres to either. Sure, the Palestinians have a bit further to go to get there than do the Israelis. On the other hand, Israel is in a far better position to take geopolitical risks than are the Palestinians, who have no stable patron, no military force, no state.
We expect the Palestinian leadership to condemn suicide bombing and so why shouldn't we expect the Israeli leadership to stop assassinating Hamas' political leadership and, more generally, to adhere to international law?
As long as Israel defines all resistance to its occupation as terrorism, we can't realistically expect pacifism to take hold as a strategy for resisting the occupation, can we?
So much of the rhetoric of pro-Israel chauvinists presents a zero-sum fantasy in which anyone who defends Palestinians' right to self-defense is therefore opposed to Israel's right to self-defense.
And when one points to fact that Israel violates human rights, the response is that we needn't concern ourselves with that, since they are "morally superior" to the Palestinians.

[Ann says Obama Sucks!]

Here's a good one:

http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/faqs.html#LegalDocs ">I'm planning to travel to Mexico. Do I need a passport?

Entry to Mexico: As of March 1, 2010, all U.S. citizens – including children -- must present a valid passport, book or card, for travel beyond the “border zone” into the interior of Mexico. Entry by any means, for example by plane or car, is included in this requirement. The “border zone” is generally defined as an area between 20 to 30 kilometers of the border with the U.S., depending on the location. Stays of less than 12 hours within the border zone do not require a visa or tourist card.

U.S. citizens traveling as tourists beyond the border zone or entering Mexico by air must pay a fee to obtain a tourist card, also known as an FM-T, available from Mexican border crossing points, Mexican tourism offices, airports within the border zone and most airlines serving Mexico.

Upon arrival in Mexico, business travelers must complete and submit a form (Form FM-N 30 days) authorizing the conduct of business, but not employment, for a 30-day period. Travelers entering Mexico for purposes other than tourism or business or for stays of longer than 180 days require a visa and must carry a valid U.S. passport. U.S. citizens planning to work or live in Mexico should apply for the appropriate Mexican visa at the

Embassy of Mexico

h/t Mark Levin

[nathan hale]

They have over time picked the Germans, the Russians, the Saudis, the Palestinians, the Libyans, and now the Iranians, the words "they
chose poorly" seems very apt.

[MayBee]

As long as Israel defines all resistance to its occupation as terrorism, we can't realistically expect pacifism to take hold as a strategy for resisting the occupation, can we?

You are the one talking about pacifism for Palestine.
The rest of your argument seems very circular to me. Palestine is weak, can't field an army, they have a "right" to defend themselves, but because they are weak they dono't follow the Geneva conventions, but if Israel is going to call that terrorism, then Palestine is going to have to keep attacking until...what? They are stronger? They are given a country?

[Melinda Romanoff]

nh-

Unfortunately, they also have picked French banks for their investment advice.

[Rick Ballard]

Mel,

Don't tell me - ABACUS clones balanced by Greek Treasuries, right?

[bunkberbuster]

Nathan writes: ``"they chose poorly"

hmmm. Israel allied with apartheid South Africa, monarchist Iran, fascist Uganda along with various fascistic regimes when and where convenient and even helped facilitate the bin Ladenist "mujahideen'' when they were "good guys" in the American right-wing's eyes.
The difference is, right-wingers accept this because they believe Israel is "morally superior.''

[bunkberbuster]

Maybee: You sound confused. Do Palestinians have a right to self-defense, or not? Read my comment again. I don't think you understood it.

[Clarice]

I think we all get it, bunkerbuster.
We just aren't buying what you're selling.

[nathan hale]

That was right around the Soviet envoy to the UN circulated that Zionism is racism bit, the
Czarist aftertaste is hard to live down. While
the Arabs tried to suffocate it with the embargo, and that thing is nearly air tight.
Compared to the psycho ward that Mahmoud runs, the Shah seems quite passable no

[Melinda Romanoff]

Rick-

Even better, the original sovreign wealth fund, their own pockets, through efficient French laundries, for a slght fee.

It's why they continue to subsist on UN funds, solely. There's enough graft for everyone, known also, domestically, as the Cook County School of Business.

[dk70]

Hey Melinda, I hear Baby Stroger is still hiring.

How was that seminar/speach with Trichet today?

[Melinda Romanoff]

Bbber-

Your youth, and inexperience, enthralls us all. Brilliant in your proven use of the math term "=" as it applies to all, yet sometimes it means ">", when applied to others, or yourself.

Good luck with the meme.

[Clarice]

quite passable, narciso.. Another think we can thank the peanut farmer for.

[anduril]

For ease of reference. David Ben Gurion:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."

[Pofarmer]

Ha, Obama drew 1100 protesters in town of 5500, and a county of only 15K. The news is saying it was the state Republican party, BUT it was organized by a local guy that runs a trucking and concrete company.

People are pissed and people are talking. Got hit up at the ATV shop today folks talking politics. This just doesn't happen. Unreal.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Trichet played the fiddle very well today, thank you. All the questions were Chicago-style 16" softballs, except for the erudite 5 minute questioner looking for evidence of the "heist".

Stroger may be hiring, but Toni might fire you after the election. You might have better luck with Mell, or Burke.

Should I know you?

[nathan hale]

Ben Gurion was being a statesman, but he was also begging the question, the injunctions against the Jews are certainly as clear in certain Surahs as some of Martin Luther's
more repugnant statements. Haj Amin Husseini
who at the time was in Nasser's Egypt along with the first wave of German intelligence operators, some of whom were advisors to the FLN, the subject of that German Mujahid book
I was referencing early

[Clarice]

OT but interesting. Ras shows majority of Arizona Latinos (legals apparently) support the state's new immigration law.
"Fully 70 percent overall support this part of the law, and given the fact that Latinos compose most of the “other” category, a majority of their demographic must be in favor too. A few caveats, though. One: Rasmussen polls likely voters, so this is obviously a sample of citizens. Other polls that use “adults” as their sample are bound to show sharply lower numbers since they’ll include some illegals too. Two: Notwithstanding the support for letting cops inquire, 53 percent overall say they’re either very or somewhat concerned that the law will lead to civil-rights violations. Among the “other” group, it’s 54 percent — but of that number, 40 percent say they’re very concerned and just 14 percent say somewhat. (Among all likely voters, that split is 23/30.) So yeah, it’s an issue, and if it starts happening, expect support to start crumbling."

LUN

[anduril]

Nate, you know, or should know by now, where I stand on Islam.

[dk70]

Chicago 16", one of my favorite sports. No mitts required and the large sized and softer ball allowing one to play with beer in hand.

I am a fellow chicagoan but don't think we've crossed paths.

[Clarice]

That is good news, Po. Let's hope that angry continues into November.

The IPCC goofed again--they forgot to consider sediment when falsely claiming Bangladesh would sink into the sea..Not happening. Ditto with Tuvalu where the water seems to be receding.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=531579

[Melinda Romanoff]

yet.

(and I have the knuckles to prove I've played the game)

Nice to meet you.

but, G'night all.

[nathan hale]

Speaking of someone that won't settle for preemptive concessions, in the LUN

[bgates]

And yes, there is much more good than bad.

OK. I don't see much good in "the nature of a tiger", but one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is another man's big game hunter, I suppose.

Recognizing their back is against the wall and that they act accordingly is simply recognizing the facts.

"Accordingly", meaning as anyone would act? Would the Chinese, the French, the Russians act the same in the same situation? I don't think so.

[nathan hale]

The Chinese in Zinjiang, the Russian in Chechnya, even once upon a time, the French
in Algeria, they don't fool around

[DrJ]

Ras shows majority of Arizona Latinos (legals apparently) support the state's new immigration law.

That was my experience with "Latino's" support of illegal immigration when I lived in AZ: they were opposed to it.

[cathyf]

Totally OT, but it's been a long 4 days... Saturday morning our 2nd grade teacher went over to the school and discovered that it had been broken into. It was vicious destruction -- as far as we can tell nothing was taken, just smashed. They hit the computer lab / library, tossing computers, bookshelves, projectors, beating on keyboards, monitors, etc. We lost all 13 of our flatscreen iMacs, and 2 eMacs (the the other 8 eMacs, which are only worth about $150, of course are just fine!) They tossed 5 classrooms and the principal's office, throwing papers and books everywhere and breaking equipment. In one room the broke the piggy bank and threw the money around, but didn't take any. They sprayed fire extinguishers. They went into the kitchen and spread the school's entire milk supply there and in the gym and hallways, mixed with syrup. Pulled meat out of the freezer and scattered it around. Smashed a large crucifix and many religious statues throughout the school. Pulled all of the trophies out of the trophy case and smashed them.

As we stood outside the school Saturday morning waiting for the CSI team to arrive, the high school baseball team walked up. They had gone to the high school for practice (1.5 blocks away) and discovered the high school in a similar state. There they had focused on the school office, smashing copiers, computers, files, etc., and there they smashed virtually every trophy and trophy case in the building. The did a similar thing with the food, and discharged fire extinguishers into the gym, student lounge and lockers. According to the smashed clocks, and computer log files, it looks like they started at the high school and continued on to us a couple of hours later.

[Carol Herman]

I think Israel should just stay mum. Right now, the shrimp (who wears shoe lifts), the french Sarkozy guy, wants to sell Bibi Netanyahu so white flags.

While Greece is about to discover if it can get the germans to toss Merkel, in a May 9th election.

It's getting to be like the Jones joke. First, you have to believe it's a good venue to sell ties to muslems. After you've bought that, the rest of the sale is easy. /s

[bunkberbuster]

Thanks Mel! I'm always happy when commenters, even the incoherent ones, confirm readership. It's also amusing that you so enthusiastically, if unwittingly, reveal how low your standards of evidence are.

[Danube of Thought]

The arguments are either valid, or invalid. Morality has nothing to do with it.

Morality is an essential in determining the validity or invalidity of many an argument, particularly including this one. You can make assertions to the contrary all you want, but in doing so you simply confirm what we have known about you for some time.

As I said, confused and a bit unmoored...

[Danube of Thought]

The difference is, right-wingers accept this because they believe Israel is "morally superior.''

Puerile gibberish.

Certainly the way Israel wages war is morally superior to the methods used by the Palestinians. That is confirmed by centuries of the laws and customs of war, and by innumerable international treaties. Of course, if you believe that those laws and customs are unrelated to morality, you are free to say so, but you will find it difficult to garner respect for that view.

One could infer that you do not believe that anything whatsoever is morally superior to anything else. Is that correct? (A simple yes or no will do.)

[rse]

If they're mad now, wait until they discover that small businesses will have to issue 1099's to every one (including corporations) they do $600 of business with starting in 2011.

LUN

Yet another costly burden on the jobs generating part of the private sector to generate additional "revenue" in Obamacare to offset all those costs.

Utterly insane and economically obtuse.

[daddy]

Clarice,

Enjoyed your interesting link exposing the ">http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=531579"> IPCC's AGW falsehoods still being pushed about Bangladesh and Tuvalu.

Concerning sinking islands, it has always interested me how little mention is ever given in hysteric news-stories about Tuvalu that many oceanic islands frequently sink and have sunk, naturally, over the millennia, and that we've known this for almost 200 years.

When the young 27 year old Charles Darwin returned from the voyage of the Beagle in 1836, it was Geology which motivated him, not evolution, and besides his amazing work analyzing the makeup and possible origins of the twin mountain ranges of South America, his greatest geological insight was into the origin of Coral Atolls.

He concocted the theory that undersea mountains, like at Hawaii, would rise above the surface, and that eventually corals would grow around the rim of the island. Then over the millennia, as the mountain slowly receded back into the ocean or as the ocean waters slowly rose above the peak, whichever happened, eventually the landform would be submerged, and all that would remain would be a telltale coral atoll, generally holding the circular shape of whatever mountain earlier existed, and signaling it's burial location in the ocean like a tombstone.

Doing his homework, he and Captain Fitzroy carefully plotted depths and measured temperatures etc, and posited what environmental regimes would be required to allow corals to grow. He wasn't perfect, but his calculation that as long as the reef and landmass didn't sink rapidly more than about 200 feet, then enough light would exist to allow coral organisms to continue to grow upon the bodies of their ancestors and the reef to continue to rise to the surface.

He then plotted coral atolls on ocean maps and then reasoned they might indicate where certain large scale sections of the ocean floor were subsiding, and conversely their absence might indicate where sections of the ocean floor were either rising, or remaining relatively stable. (All this 150 years before plate tectonics.) And when upon his return he explained this to Lyell, the great Geologist, the scene recorded by young Darwin is of Lyell tap-dancing around his study and whacking his leg gleefully, even though Darwin's idea had just crushed Lyell's own pet theory. That's a great scene, and then and there they became lifelong bosom buddies.

Better yet, Darwin also explained how to prove or disprove his theory, something that I have often admired of him personally, as it certainly seems an attitude that doesn't seem to exist among todays Climate Science propagandists. (Seriously, ask yourself when's the last time you heard either Mann or Jone's or any of these other jackasses posit how to disprove their theories, and invite folks to do so? As far as I recall, never.) Anyhow, Darwin speculated how nice it would be if in some future time someone could develop the technology to drill down through some Coral Atoll toward bedrock, and see how far down it might go before hitting either bedrock (proof) or sand (disproof). This might then give an estimated age for the beginning of the coral assuming approximate growth of an inch a century, and either proving or disproving his Coral Island Theory.

Finally in 1951 such successful drilling was undertaken at Eniwetok Atoll in the Marshall Islands, and after boring through almost a mile of dead corals they finally hit volcanic rock at a depth of 4,154 feet, validating that portion of Darwin's Coral Atoll theory.

Anyhow, Darwin's Coral Theory wasn't absolutely perfect, and the modern guys have made some modifications as one would expect over the next 150 years, but in this case the amazingly perceptive young college Grad on a world tour did pretty well. I always enjoyed that part of the Beagle Voyage immensely, so when I read these stories about AGW supposedly inundating Tuvalu or Figi or Bangladesh or whatever BS they are throwing out there, I always wonder why it is always immediately evoked as an abnormal, undreamed of occurrence, and as if we have not known that islands and various landmasses have been slowly rising and sinking below the waves for millions of years, and will continue to do so long after we and our fossil fueled SUV's have left the scene.

Sorry for the long windedness. You guys probably all knew that anyway, but here's a ">http://www.stanford.edu/group/microdocs/darwinvolcano.html"> quick decent summary.

[AL]

America did provide invaluable help to Israel in critical time, when aggressive nuclear monstrosity of Soviet Union actively worked on destruction of Jewish state.

Since the disintegration of Soviet Union, Israel can comfortably defend itself against arab/muslim shitvawe.

Thank you very much for your timely help.

[bunkberbuster]

Dot says: ``Certainly the way Israel wages war is morally superior to the methods used by the Palestinians.''

True, but almost meaningless under the circumstances. Why pretend to value a moral equation that leaves out so many essential details?
While the Palestinians' military tactics are indeed morally inferior to Israel's, their motives are morally superior to the extent that Israel illegally occupies their land. And Israeli forces have killed hundreds of times more innocent civilians than the Palestinians have. That cannot be left out of the equation.
If you're going to do moral math, you have to include everything, otherwise you're just lying.

[bunkberbuster]

``One could infer''

lol...

[daddy]

Well this explains it---

If only those Tyrannosaurs had had cavemen around to artificially warm the climate:

">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/dinosaurs/7624014/Dinosaurs-died-from-sudden-temperature-drop-not-comet-strike-scientists-claim.html"> Dinosaurs died from sudden temperature drop not comet strike scientists claim.

Darn the bad luck.

[Pofarmer]

Along the path to Macon, MO, done by a guy I know.