Kenya Believe it? NY Times Toddling Towards Truth On Obama's Birth Certificate

We have previously derided the Times coverage of the "birther" controversy around Obama's birth certificate - they love to peruse polls suggesting that all birthers are daft but shy away from even hinting at a few basic facts.

But the recent signing in Hawaii of the so-called "birther-bill" allowing the Hawaii Dept. of Health to ignore repeated requests from the same people has prompted the Times to put some of the basic facts in evidence.

So today, a careful Times reader learns that:

 - during the 2008 campaign Team Obama released a summary form known as a "Certification of Live Birth", suitable for driver's license applications, passport applications, or framing;

 - a more complete file is available at the Hawaii State Dept. of Health;

 - that file could be released to Obama or a relative (and no doubt will be when he inks his eight-figure book deal).

What the Times continues to avoid is a seemingly obvious question - why doesn't Obama just request the file and then release it?  Surely the most transparent Administration in history has nothing to hide?

As to what that file might reveal, my favored guesses are nothing, or perhaps some embarrassing tidbit, like a legal name change from "Barry" to "Barack" as a teenager (in a quest for authenticity left unmentioned in "Dreams").  As a wild longshot, I have ruminated about the possibility that the evidence of Obama's birth is Hawaii is nothing more than affidavits from his mother and her parents. 

If these affidavits are honest and accurate, they will probably describe a quick, unexpected labor and delivery somewhere in Honolulu.  If the three were lying, their motivation would have been to establish American citizenship for Baby Barry (or Barack!?!) against the day when Stanley Dunham might be waging a nasty custody fight in Kenya over a black baby born in Kenya to a Kenyan father.  But the three (hypothetical) affiants are dead, so they won't be available for cross-examination except by John Edwards.

The notion that there is a more complete file available at Obama's request will come as a revelation to some in the media - Andrew Sullivan, for example, wrote this in explaining the dust-up to the Brits back in 2009:

"Obama did all he could to make this go away."

That is simply not accurate, and even the Times now says so:

By Hawaiian law, birth records can be released only to people with “a direct and tangible” interest in them — a person born in the state, say, or certain relatives or their estates.

So why won't Obama just release the file?  My guess is that there is nothing of interest or consequence in the file, but that Obama is concealing it simply because he conceals everything.  His political success is centered on his biography and he controls the presentation of that biography the way the Walt Disney people control Mickey Mouse.  As a matter of brand management Obama won't release his birth files, his college transcripts, his law firm billing records, or anything else - go buy a copy of "Dreams From My Father" and he will tell you his story, and thanks for asking.

And the politics have worked for him - "Look how crazy my opponents are!" has been a successful message.  To flash back to Andrew Sullivan as a classic dupe, in his article Sully admits to having no understanding of the birther controversy, demonstrates his ignorance, and explains that it is due to anti-Obama racism.  Uh huh. And that has been the default Times posture up to now, as well.

But is it ever so slightly possible that the Times is taking a more questioning view of the most transparent Administration in history?  They do have that special relationship to protect, and I have no doubt that some of their reporters value their special access as they work on their book deals.

On the other hand one of their star reporters, James Risen, has been subpoenaed in a "tell us your sources" case.  And today we sense a note of frustration in their story about their attempts to cover the Elena Kagan Supreme Court nomination:

White Houses traditionally put a muzzle on their Supreme Court nominees, to keep them from saying anything that might jeopardize Senate confirmation. But the Obama White House has taken it one step further. It is limiting, if not blocking, access to the nominee’s family.

The reporter was going to watch Ms. Kagan's brother teach a high school class and then chat with him, but the White House put the kibosh on it.  And there was this:

A cousin of Ms. Kagan, Gail Katz-James of Minneapolis, was quoted in a profile in The Times the day after the president announced the nomination. She described the “verbal sparring” around the dinner table in the Kagans’ Upper West Side apartment, saying that the family “just really enjoyed debating and discussing everything.”

But two days after the article appeared, when contacted again by the same reporter from The Times, Ms. Katz-James said: “I’m sorry. I’m not able to talk to you.” She was asked if the White House had directed her not to talk to the press. “Nope,” she said, and hung up the phone.

In happier days the Times would have denounced the anti-Semitism of anyone with any questions at all about Elena Kagan, and then denounced the racism of anyone wondering about Obama's choice.  This is a little crack in the wall.

And lest we forget, a bigger crack is their front-pager about putting Americans, specifically the American Muslim cleric in Yemen, on the drone kill list.  We can't eavesdrop on his cell phone without a court order, but we can blow him up.  Troubling.  And interesting - picking up the Times is almost like reading a newspaper sometimes.

SINCE YOU ASKED:  My official editorial position is that Obama was born in Hawaii and anyway was endorsed by the Congress sworn to uphold the Constitution when they accepted the results of the Electoral College.  As to the Death Drones, if Bush did this targeting Americans we would read about nothing else, and I would support it.  But don't look for me to exert a lot of effort splashing pixels on Obama's behalf - he can deal with his crazed base himself.

Comments

[Oh, c'mon, you don't actually think he was born of woman, do you?]

Fit to show me all the news.
==============

[Jane]

Was John Edwards indicted this week?

[nathan hale]

Please drive hot pokers in my eyes, and 'feed my fingertips to the wolverines' not another
birther thread, in the LUN

[MarkO]

It's too bad Jim Phelps is dead.

[Rob Crawford]

I object to the comparison to Mickey Mouse. Mickey's an honest, forthright character who has brought entertainment, and economic development to places all over the world.

(Disney just announced they're finally completing a hotel they put on hold in 2001. Some of the press around their announcement predicts it will spur more construction around Orlando. That means Mickey Mouse has just created more jobs with one decision than Bammers has in his life.)

[dk70]

We'll definitely not see his school transcripts. After all the praise and hosannas about how smart our current President is, it would be quite the shock to see grades that were worse than President Bush's.

Perhaps we'll see a future NYT headline that reads "Former President Bush Just Book Smart".

[JM Hanes]

The Hawaiian Legislature probably thought they were doing Obama a favor! LOL!

[Captain Hate]

After all the praise and hosannas about how smart our current President is, it would be quite the shock to see grades that were worse than President Bush's.

I'd just prefer to see some current evidence that he's knowledgeable about anything. The howler that he made in the SOTU address when he took a shot at the Supremes made it obvious that he didn't know WTF he was talking about regarding the historical precedents in that case. And that was after we'd been gulled into believing he was this awesome Constitutional law expert.

[Patrick Henry]

What if the thing they're hiding is his "race". Wouldn't that be ironic? Would sort of hit Mr. Post-racial-all-the-rest-of-you-are-racists right where he lives...

[Clarice]

TM, you really are my extra special super terrific favorite ..But really, you posted this to draw Ellen back, didn't you, you foxy fellow?

[JM Hanes]

Captain Hate:

"And that was after we'd been gulled into believing he was this awesome Constitutional law expert."

I once read that intelligent people are the easiest to hypnotize because you can persuade them to cooperate.

[bgates]

Rob, don't be so quick to defend Mickey. He donated the max to Obama:
Contributor MOUSE, MICKEY
ORLANDO,FL 34621
Occupation WALT DISNEY/ENTERTAINER
Date 10/16/08
Amount $2,000
Recipient Obama, Barack (D)

Why would the Times need to meet family members to write their stories anyway? Just go here, pick something appropriately respectful, and then do a search/replace "Juche"=>"Kagan".

[matt]

"direct & tangible interest"? How interesting...wouldn't a state attorney general or secretary of state have such standing? After all, they are responsible for ascertaining the eligibility of candidates on their ballots? I'm just sayin.....

I want this dirtbag to feel the needles every day he is in office...His skin is getting thinner and thinner and his comments nastier and nastier....Mr. Hopey Changey is exhibiting very poor form for someone who is so urbane and hip....

he's the worst thing to happen to this country since secession and should be treated accordingly.

[Threadkiller]

Rob Crawford said:

"I object to the comparison to Mickey Mouse."

It is an unfair comparison, I believe Mickey was created by American citizens.

Clarice said:

"...you posted this to draw Ellen back, didn't you,..."

…and threadkiller.

Bryan.

[Danube of Thought]

I decline to participate in this thread. I can do no other.

[ck]

Father: Frank Marshall Davis or unknown.

[nathan hale]

What more do we need to know about him,in college he absorbed the patina at knowledge, the training in manipulation of symbols, that Frank Davis told him, and carried that same chip on his shoulders, as a community organizer he was a failure, he cheated his way into his first state senate seat, and
hisp ath to the US Senate, was almost as assured. His record in both was risible. Are we surprised he has turned out the way it has

[Raining Money]

Obama once again using taxpayer dollars to buy union votes.

Per Washington Examiner:

"Yet another example of public sector employee union smash and grab, at a time when private sector workers are desperate for jobs:

The Obama administration on Thursday threw its support behind a $23 billion measure intended to avert large-scale teacher layoffs, urging Congress to include the effort in a spending bill lawmakers are drafting to fund wartime costs and other urgent needs."

[Mike Huggins]

Sorry for an OT post, but I thought some JOM readers would find this posting by Jule Crittenden, which leads you to an incredible Claire Berlnski article, interesting: Hidden History Of Evil, or "Aren't Commies, and their western enablers, just a bunch of sweet guys?"

I'd like to know more about Mr. "Lion of the Senate's" secret overtures to the Kremlin. But, hey, Neil Kinnock, saying to the Russkies that he'd help get rid of Trident submarines is pretty good.

[nathan hale]

It's been posted a few times, once by me, so Biden's choice to plagiarize wasn't totally accidental

[Rob Crawford]

Rob, don't be so quick to defend Mickey. He donated the max to Obama:

Bah. Given the volume of fraudulent donations to the Obama campaign, I expect both I and John McCain donated the maximum, as well.

[peter]

Redstate has Elena Kagan's college thesis up on their website. Well, for one thing, it is a hell of a lot more literate than Michelle Robinson's. Read the conclusion, and you'll know where this lady's heart lies.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

I decline to participate in this thread. I can do no other.

God help you, DOT. Marty would be proud of you.

[Matthew Crandall]

I've wondered about constructing a legal interest in the birth certificate. What if a dying republican put a clause in his will that Obama would get the estate if his birth place was shown to be hawaii, but otherwise it would go to the descendants. Then the descendants would have a legal interest in seeing the birth certificate.

[centralcal]

In other news . . .

Cronkite Might Been Even Worse Than We Thought

[fdcol63]

Kagan's thesis makes it very clear that she either is, or strongly supports, "radicalism" and "socialism".

No surprise there, really.

What part of Obama's "fundamental transformation" of America did people NOT understand?

[fdcol63]

" .... I've wondered about constructing a legal interest in the birth certificate ..."

One would think that LTC Terry Lakin's court-martial would create such a legal interest that would compel discovery:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36478557/ns/us_news-military/

[bgates]

OT, "Law and Order" has been canceled.

It was killed off by rich middle-aged executives, who are generally responsible for the killings in the show too.

I should point out that I'm talking about the tv show "Law and Order". The concept of "Law and Order" was canceled a year and a half ago, though it's still very popular in reruns where available.

[Neo]

So was this “Law & Order”, “Law & Order SUV”, “Law & Order CIS”, “Law & Order H1N1″, Law & Order HIV”, or Law & Order BHO” ?

[Neo]

Oh, that's right .. there never was "Law & Order BHO”

[Captain Hate]

Does that mean Jack McCoy is the next nominee for a vacancy on the SCOTUS? Btw, I'm not saying I'm old, but I can remember when Law and Order was watchable.

[Captain Hate]

I once read that intelligent people are the easiest to hypnotize because you can persuade them to cooperate.

JMH, I've written and erased a number of comments to this. All I'll say for now is that I find this to be a more interesting subject than most of the recent threads.

[Rocco]

OT: Stanley Ann Dunham's 50th class reunion is coming up this September. I think someone should go undercover and see what they can dig up?

[daddy]

I have done enuff of these Birther Threads to know by now that the best beverage to slog thru them is a very mediocre Lager with lo-medium Alcohol content.

You don't want to be reading these with Guinness. The rich creamy taste of that fine, fine elixer doesn't deserve to become subconsciously conflated in the readers mind with trash like Birther threads. Instead save Guinness for Rendition or Gitmo, and definitely the very enjoyable Saturday/Sunday open thread smorgasbords, but certainly not Birther stuff.

That also applies IMHO to any quality MicroBrew IPA's or Pale Ale's, and definitely no Birther thread should ever be tackled with a decent Single Malt Scotch, nor for that matter, with an excellent Napa Cab or Merlot.

The proper way to slog thru another Birther Thread is preferably with a can of lukewarm Budweiser. That horse-piss is a very suitable libation for discussion of Obama's Certification of Live Birth and day dreams of his Father, whoever the hell the guy was. The rancid taste of Amheiser Busch, swirling around in it's personal aluminum mini-toilet bowl, is the perfect swill for Natural Born Citizen arguments by Ellen, et al the Ellen's of the world, etc., and even better, canned, room-temp Budweiser is the perfect physical metaphor for comparing todays proliferation of wonderful microbreweries to our wonderfully innovative Health Care structure, and lukewarm stale Bud to what we'll all be limited to if Obamacare actually ever becomes the Law of the Land.

Canned Bud, like Obama, pretends to have been born and brewed in the United States, and may actually have been, but it is such a miserably uninspiring concoction of rancid fermented rice, undrinkable liquids, and other rank smelling unappetizing imported ingredients, that it almost perfectly encapsulates the fetid stench of an east African cesspool or some South Asian sewer system, as well as perfectly complementing interminable discussions of where the hell Barry/Barrack/Barrack-Light, whatever came from. Much like our President, it is both "greatly tasteless and less filling", and the only thing possibly more appropriate to drink for a Birther thread would be to remove one of Michelle's shoes, pore in some knockoff Gallo Sparkling Wine from a box, and start gluggin'. Yuck!

So keep the good stuff in the cupboard, start scrolling, and hold your nose. This Bud's for you, Birthers!

[Rick Ballard]

I wanna hear the part about the Three Wise Latinas from the West (Texas town of El Paso) who followed the shining Red Star across the Pacific on the backs of dolphins, bearing gifts of bribes, kickbacks and graft for the newborn King of the Unicorns lying in the simple hut of his father, the lowly commissar, near the glistening white sands of Bali Hi with the majestic Kilimanjaro towering above.

That's the part I find most believable regarding the birth of whatevershisnameis.

[RJ]

Does that mean Jack McCoy is the next nominee for a vacancy on the SCOTUS?

We'll have to investigate his ties to Ameritrade first.

[DrJ]

daddy,

Next time you are in the Bay Area we have to go microbrewery hopping.

Or Numano Sake.

Or we can visit the Budweiser plant in Fairfield. :)

[glasater]

Hey!

There's nothing wrong with Bud Light--mixed with Clamato and a dash of Tabasco....

Best hair of the dog in the world.....

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Bingo, Glasater. Anecdotal, maybe. Tested, Proven, and approved by me, definitely. Someone ought to mix it up and bottle it like Hard Lemonade and the like.

P.S., A dash of worcestershire sauce zips it up a bit, too.

[centralcal]

lol, Rick! (Did you steal that from Barack's next book outline?)

[daddy]

So you're saying anything to cover the smell and the taste.

The Defense rests:)

[glasater]

Worcestershire noted Jim Rhoads!

Heh Daddy...

Any port in a storm:-)

[matt]

"there's nothing wrong with Bud Lite (after a year in Afghanistan)

[fish]

why doesn't Obama just request the file and then release it?

a) He doesn't have to, and b) keeps you guys occupied

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

Not DOT. He's sworn off this story, and is on the case of some of the many other shenanigans of the Obummer administration. We all have enough fodder to keep us busy.

And besides, we didn't bring it up. The Hawaii legislature did.

[Threadkiller]

Bud like Obama has split loyalties.

Anheuser-Busch Companies , Inc. (pronounced /ˈænhaɪzər ˈbʊʃ/), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Belgium-based Anheuser-Busch InBev, is the largest brewing company in the United States.

Foreign owned but sold here.

[Craig]

Obama doesn't release his long-form BC for much of the same reasons that Palin doesn't release Trig's BC. Those who insist on a conspiracy will either latch onto any mistype, font change or other anomaly and claim fraud, or they will just skip that and immediately claim that the sinister powers at work could have submitted a false document by now.

Meanwhile, some of those in the public who haven't been too concerned about the issue up until now may wonder why the President is suddenly bending to birther pressure and releasing this additional document. ("Might there be something to this crazy story after all?")

And more people start to have suspicions....

In other words, Obama, and Palin, have nothing to gain by releasing BC documents.

[Threadkiller]

Craig,

What do you suppose Palin's reasons would be?

[DrJ]

I didn't realize Trig ran for President. And succeeded. Silly me!

[Craig]

I'm simply saying that both people have some similar reasons to not release BC documentation (or further documentation, in Obama's case).

And I listed those reasons.

[Pops]

I haven't really looked into this mess, because I think in the ned it would be pretty meaningless anyway.

But my first thought would be that the "CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH" attests to the fact that Barack Obama was BORN in Hawaii.

But I am sure lots of foriegners on vacation have run into the problem of having their baby born in some foriegn country.

In most of the world, it is the fathers lineage that is recognized and thus, Barack would have been Kenyan.

No different then John McCain is not Panamanian.

If a Japanese couple is vacationing in Kenya and has a baby, that baby is a Japanese citizen, not Kenyan.

Perhaps there was some issue at birth because his Dad never wanted to be a citizen and was returning to Kenya to live.

[jb]

Craig--

Palin, political neophyte that she is, is under no compunction to prove anything.

Obama is. Do you get the diff?

The Flipping Bammster is the POTUS, and acting like he has more to hide than a cocaine dealer in a cop shop for over 3 hours.

I frankly don't give a flying flip whether he is an American or not--55%+ of American citizens were brain-dead enough to vote for him, so they get what they deserve. Not that John McCain was anything more than the Viagra-fueled alternative . . . hehe.

Individual states, however, may just decide enough is enough---screw the unions and the various religions and various ethnic groups--that has jack to do about America.

HOW-ever . . . it would be rich if it turned out the Bammster was an illegal alien.

God would not permit such earthly pleasure, I am afraid.

[Threadkiller]

Craig,

So, are you saying Obama's grandmother faked giving birth to Barry, in order to protect a wholesome family unit, and helped her young daughter avoid any complications or embarrassment that may have come from this?

[Pops]

It is also a known fact that Barack Obama was in fact a Kenyan citizen at least until the age of 23. Well actually a citizen of the the UK colonies.

How exactly did that happen?

Why would you receive Kenyan citizenship as an infant?

So if technically, you believe the founders meant 'natural born citizen' excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states. ...well, by birth, Obama was a Kenyan citizen, and thus would be excluded due to his dual allegiance.

[Threadkiller]

"If a Japanese couple is vacationing in Kenya and has a baby, that baby is a Japanese citizen, not Kenyan."

I guess that would mean If a Mexican couple is vacationing in America and has a baby, that baby is a Mexican citizen, not American.

[Neo]

Palin is holding back Trig's BC until Trig manages to climb up Andrew Sullivan's penis.

[Pops]

Craig, you missed the even simplier explanation that Obamas birth certificate would be exactly compatible with Microsoft Word 2007.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/12526

[Threadkiller]

"...well, by birth, Obama was a Kenyan citizen, and thus would be excluded due to his dual allegiance."

This is correct. Please tell everybody you know.

[Pops]

""I guess that would mean If a Mexican couple is vacationing in America and has a baby, that baby is a Mexican citizen, not American.""

No, because America doesn't have the same racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Mexican, anti-immigrant, anti-Hispanic laws as the rest of the world.

But if two Americans in Arizona have a baby, that baby is DENIED Mexican citizenship. Racists!

[pops]

As Obama tells the story, his Mother actually went in for an abortion when Grandma found out that the babies daddy was black, and blacks scared her.

Luckily the abortion was botched and Hawaii didn't have the Obama rule of letting it die in the towel closet anyway.

[Craig]

Threadkiller.....what?

At what point could you have possibly gotten the idea that I buy into the Obama birther theories?

Please read this s-l-o-w-l-y.....

I'm merely saying that both Obama and Palin will get no benefit from providing any BC information in regard to their particular "birther" issues. The people who seriously believe in either of the "conspiracies" will not accept the evidence presented as authentic. They believe what they believe, and that is unchangable.

Therefore, providing such information does nothing to close the story in the minds of such people. In fact, most birthers will see any document release as a sign of weakness in the Obama/Palin camp and will smell blood in the water. If anything, they will double-down on their certainty that they are right!

So the conspiracy believers shouldn't hold their breath while waiting for a document release.

It ain't happenin'.

[Threadkiller]

"Threadkiller.....what?"

I can only reason that lumping Palin with Obama is just a subtle, or maybe not so subtle smear of Palin.

If Palin/Trig is to be a serious concern, first somebody would have show me what would be wrong if she lied to protect her daughter.

As far as holding my breath; document release from Obama's own website:

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”

Read this again:

"his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982"

For it to expire it had to exist. For milk to be sour, it first had to be milk.

Whew, I can breath again!

[Melinda Romanoff]

Bryan-

You're going to get into an argument with a "board-thrower".

Watch ooouut.

[Boatbuilder]

So does this mean that I can now safely make the point that what Obama has ostensibly produced for the edification of us all isn't his birth certificate? And wonder why no enterprising member of our fearless and crusading media hasn't had the guts to simply ask him why not?
(Answer--of course not--what are you, some kind of racist crackpot?)

[Melinda Romanoff]

How many ribs on that tub your buildin', you racist?

[Craig]

I "lumped" Palin with Obama because BOTH are dealing with birthers who are demanding BC documents.

And BOTH have similar reasons to not appease their conspiracy-believers.

You apparently think I'm "smearing" Palin by connecting her situation with Obama because you are an Obama birther yourself.

Let me clarify ONE MORE TIME that I don't give much credance to EITHER birther conspiracy.

Clear?

From what I know about the Kenya citizenship issue, Obama had US citizenship via birth and Kenya citizenship, by law, through his father's citizenship in Kenya. Obama had to, by Kenya law, choose to give up his Kenya citizenship by the time he became a legal adult. He had a two-year window to make that decision once he was an adult.

Thus the expiration of his citizenship.

I'm not going to get into the weeds regarding this whole birther conspiracy. I have a lot more things to be worried about regarding his actual deeds as president than to obsess over this birther stuff.

My only point all along has been to point out the similar reasons why Obama and Palin will get no tangible gain out of releasing BC documents.

[Melinda Romanoff]

OK, fine, if that's your sole point, then let's sift it a tad finer and get to the base elements, simple DNA comparators with all original sources.

No big deal.

All questions answered.

And we are done here.

[Threadkiller]

Craig,

My post should have made it "clear" that I am not a birther. I would be considered a dualer.

There is no conspiracy when the evidence is not hidden. I need no BC because I believe he was born in the United States.

Do you believe a dual citizen can be President?

[Threadkiller]

Sorry Melinda, I did not see your last post.

I will try to not over do it. :)

[Melinda Romanoff]

Don't mind me. I just try and point out the guard rails. You can raise as much fuss in your own wallow as you want. Me? I'm wearin' white...

G'night all.

[JM Hanes]

Captain Hate:

"JMH, I've written and erased a number of comments to this."

That's OK. I was in such a hurry, I left out the part about how they have to want to be hypnotized.

[Craig]

Do you believe that there is a law that says that a person who once held dual citizenship can't be a President?

[JM Hanes]

So, daddy:

You know what would make this topic a whole lot more fun? If we started every new birther thread with a betting pool on how soon the first Obot would show up.

[Threadkiller]

I believe that "natural born" was intended to create a status of citizenship, and that status is a person who was born to U.S. citizens on U.S. soil.

The SCOTUS has said we have to look outside the Constitution to find the answer, but they refuse to answer themselves.

Because they refuse to rule, does that suggest we shouldn't look for ourselves as to what was meant be the founders?

My question first please:

Do you believe a dual citizen can be President?

[Sue]

But don't look for me to exert a lot of effort splashing pixels on Obama's behalf - he can deal with his crazed base himself.

Woot! Woot! Exactly how I feel.

[Threadkiller]

Craig,

I will have to wait till tommorow to find out what you believe. I hope you just got busy and my question did not require so much thought.

Goodnight and I hope we are commenting again tommorow.

Bryan.

[daddy]

JMH,

It's not quite as fast as the "Neighhhh" following mention of "Frau Bluecker", but darn close, and yes, that would make a good thing to bet on.

How 'bout we call it the "Frau Birther" Sweepstakes?

[Craig]

Someone who currently holds dual citizenships shouldn't be, and cannot be, President.

Easy answer.

And if someone is a natural-born citizen of the USA and just happened to hold a dual citizenship until adulthood simply due to having a foreign father, I have no problem with that either.

[daddy]

I am a US citizen born of US mIlitary parents who happened to be stationed overseas in Germany when I popped out. My original Birth Cert is in German, though I have a US Translation and some other official transcript generated by the US Military.

When I was I think 18, living in North Carolina, I received an official notice from the German Government asking IIRC, If I wanted to exercise my right to be a German citizen. I had no idea I even had the option, or that they even considered me as a citizen of Germany due to my birthplace. Regardless, I declined. FWIW, both sides of my family had lived as citizens in the US since the mid 1600's on 1 side and the early 1830's on the other.

[Threadkiller]

Did not make it to bed yet so I thought I would check.

"And if someone is a natural-born citizen of the USA and just happened to hold a dual citizenship until adulthood simply due to having a foreign father, I have no problem with that either"

If someone can be both a "natural born" and a dual citizen at the same time they have already fit the requirement for POTUS.

Why would they have to renounce the citizenship to another country if they are already natural born at birth?

Why have the constraint of "dual citizenship until adulthood" but it is not a factor at birth? If you can change the rules as a matter of age, what is the rule you are changing and why was that rule created?

Natural born and dual allegiance cannot happen at the same time. It is one or the other or there is no need for the requirement.

[Cae]

Democrat Barack Hussein Obama

-

ILLEGAL ALIEN

[Cae]

DEATH to BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA 'alias' BARRY MOHAMED SOETORO |||||||

[BR]

No, no, Cae.

[BR]

The 13th fairy says, it's more like the MSM has been asleep and now they have their chance to redeem themselves.

[BR]

NYT - the first MSM rat to leave the ship Titanic...
or the lit cigar in the Hindenburg?

[Through the transparent looking glass.]

Tweedledum and Tweedledee,
Wonder what his secret be.
==============

[JM Hanes]

Threadkiller:

"Natural born and dual allegiance cannot happen at the same time."

Sure it can. You can be born in the U.S. to an American mother and a foreign father, and after that, it depends on the regulations in their respective countries. In the U.S., you used to have to choose/renounce one or the other, when you reached your legal majority -- i.e. when you were legally empowered to make decisions for yourself. I believe that's the way it still ought to be, but the law was changed, and now you're allowed to keep both. It would be interesting to know who sponsored that change, and what the pretext for it was.

[JM Hanes]

I disassociate myself from the comments of poster Cae. I do not recognize that screen name, and I suspect the person behind it may be deliberately trying to attach inflammatory statements to this blog and/or our host.

[Clarice]

No kidding,jmh. Amazing what smelly fish a little birther thread hauls in.

[Not long before the Guns of September.]

I know someone born on a German ship in Irish waters of American parents. There was a choice, among the three citizenships, at age 21.
================

[I laugh myself through the camps.]

I also deplore the comments of cae, presumably an extreme Muslim jihadist, upset at Obama's adult denial of Islam.
================

[Threadkiller]

JMH,

If you can be born as both "natural born" and a dual citizen, and one does not negate the other at birth, you have met the qualification for POTUS.

Maybe you could renounce your other citizenship but as long as you don't renounce your American citizenship, you would still be "natural born." So why bother.

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution,..."

Ahmadinejad could sire a child with an American on a trip to the United Nations. After the child is born he could return the child to Iran, and enroll the child in a "we hate America" school.

All they have to do is renounce Iranian citizenship at age 18 and you have Presidential material. He can come back when he is 21, wait 14 years, and he would now be qualified.

I know nobody, in their right mind, would vote for him, but "natural born" properly applied would never let this happen to begin with.

[JM Hanes]

Threadkiller:

As noted, it would be interesting to know who was responsible for the change in U.S. policy and why. Perhaps that's something you might be interested in pursuing. Alas, I've got too many other irons of interest in the fire to throw another one on the coals.

[Threadkiller]

JMH,

Pouring concrete today so I will check back later.

I have already pursued this and the only policies refer to "citizen" not "natural born citizen."

If we keep treating the two as the same we will get Citizen Arnold as president. (As soon as he renounces his Austrian citizenship.)

[They might not mind.]

Better to annex Austria.
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[JM Hanes]

Threadkiller:

I'm not sure why you would think there would be a reference to "natural born" citizenship in a dual citizenship policy, when it applies to everyone. You may think there ought be a policy stipulating that you will lose your natural born status if you maintain dual citizenship or that having one foreign born parent should be a disqualifier, but there's no reason to think that legislators would put natural born citizens at specific disadvantage in that regard.

I personally think that dual citizenship is problematic in and of itself, which is why I wonder what generated the non-exclusionary change. That's obviously something that can be changed, and has been changed independently. You can talk about natural born as "properly defined" but since there's no such definition in the Constitution, it will forever remain a matter of legislation which can be reversed, till you get a Constitutional Amendment specifying otherwise.

[Captain Hate]

I left out the part about how they have to want to be hypnotized.

I pretty much assumed that and to me it is part and parcel of a certain je ne sais quoi attitude not unlike using illegal drugs.

[Ignatz]

JMH,
I think this question is getting a little clouded.
Put simply, TK has contended and the historical record seems pretty convincing that originally the term "natural born citizen" described a person both of whose parents were citizens of the USA.
The intent was to avoid entirely the question of divided loyalties in a president regardless of whether he eventually renounced any dual citizenship.
Things were bolloxed up in a tangle of SCOTUS decisions revolving around the 14th amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1866 culminating in Wong Kim Ark which IMO was decided erroneously and has led to all manner of mischief in the ensuing years.

[boris]

"there's no such definition in the Constitution"

If there is such a thing as "natural born citizen" then there is a large group of US citizens who fit the category.

And there are people who fall outside that category, ie not citizens at birth.

And there are people we all can't seem to agree on.

It is therefore not true that the term is too poorly defined to serve as a qualification to be president. The Constitution does not say "excluding people not citizens at birth".

No matter how narrowly the phrase is defined there are a lot of US citizens in it. Some seem uncomfortable with more than two categories, and analyze the issue on that premise ... such that "citizen at birth" provides the only necessary sorting rule. That sort of structural solution to the controversy, no matter how attractive, is nevertheless a stolen base.

[Ignatz]

--That sort of structural solution to the controversy, no matter how attractive, is nevertheless a stolen base.--

Amen.